Male psychology

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

Try to understand this:

 

Why don't you stop talking down to me Mme? I don't see things like you. Doesn't make me wrong.

 

I don't think that "it's only the man that matters," and frankly, it's a drag talking to you because you continue to pull nonsense like that out of thin air and to ignore every point made by others as well as the massive amount of things you've said yourself, on many threads.

 

Oh that's a freaking lie Mme. I make an honest attempt to address more points then I ever see in return. I've address points I agree with and points I disagree with. I even tell people that disagree with me when I do infact agree with them.

 

The message often is that what men need matters more because wome nare told to suck it up and deal with it no matter how they feel about the situation. It's all about how men need porn. That's the message.

 

By the way, you think it's fun to speak to someone like you that talks to me the way you do and makes personal comments bout how I would mess up my kids and lies about the way I respond to things on here? Well it's not.

 

 

 

False. I have told you many times that I'm with you up to a point and then you veer off into territory where I can't follow. Per my comment where I point out how you jump from "culture of overabundance" (I'm with you) to "sexual fantasy is a short leap to unfaithful" where I'm so not with you.

 

I am fine with that! You are FINE with sexual fantasy in your relationship. I never once told you to be any other way.

 

I am not "twisting" anything. I am taking issue with some of the points you make.

 

And many different people have talked about your "thought police" tendencies on this thread alone.

 

 

Yeah Mme, you twist alot. I understand you take issue with things I said. guess what? I take issue with things you say too.The horror.

 

Yeah, that's right, *some* (not many) people have used the "thought police" comment because they didn't like what I had to say. But it had no baring as a rational logical response. It was really just a way to throw in some unneeded drama. "Thought Police" has become a popular term to throw around the internet anytime someone doesn't like someone else's opinions.

[Mme. Chaucer]

DY, I hope you will take the advice you gave zengirl and read YOUR own posts very carefully.

 

It's interesting how almost all of your interactions on any thread follow the same pattern.

 

Also, most people who engage with you end up reacting to your "style" here in very similar ways.

 

You might want to take a look at that.

 

You seem very passionate about your beliefs, and as I have said before, many of your ideas are well presented and stimulating; worth discussing.

 

But what is the point when you always resort to shooting the other person down, dismissing whatever they might contribute, and denying your own statements?

[EnigmaticClarity]

But what is the point when you always resort to shooting the other person down, dismissing whatever they might contribute, and denying your own statements?

 

Moral evangelism.

[carhill]

Is it any wonder why men keep their thoughts to themselves?

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

By the way, you think it's fun to speak to someone like you that talks to me the way you do and makes personal comments bout how I would mess up my kids and lies about the way I respond to things on here? Well it's not.

 

Did I say anything about "fun"? I know it was personal, but your commitment to associating sexuality with shame unless it is directed solely towards ones significant other is likely going to be tough on a pubescent child. How will you enforce an anti-masturbation / fantasy regime? Will you require your child to report any and all sexually related thoughts to you?

 

Please stop accusing me of "lies." Your posts are here for all of us to read, and the majority of people seem to respond to them in a similar fashion. Are we all liars? And unable to read?

 

Yeah Mme, you twist alot.

 

No, I don't, but as I'm getting more familiar with you I am coming to believe that your personal issues render it difficult or impossible for you to even comprehend different perspectives than your own, or argue your own points rationally. So after this post, I won't continue trying.

 

Regarding "alot," I refer you to this:

 

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

 

 

Yeah, that's right, *some* (not many) people have used the "thought police" comment because they didn't like what I had to say. But it had no baring as a rational logical response. It was really just a way to throw in some unneeded drama. "Thought Police" has become a popular term to throw around the internet anytime someone doesn't like someone else's opinions.

 

No … people are using the term "thought police" in reference to YOU because of what YOU have put out here.

 

Why don't you stop dismissing and refuting every. single. thing. that people say that is not in line with what you believe? They are kneejerk reacting. They are twisting. They are not rational. They are lying! They are going for "unneeded drama."

 

That's no way for a mature, intelligent person to engage in discussions.

[Mme. Chaucer]

One more thing and then I promise I'm out:

 

I posted:

 

What a person has going on inside their head is NOT an affront to other people. It is THEIR OWN BUSINESS. It has nothing to do with men vs. women. Nobody can be a "doormat" because of what another person it THINKING.

 

You responded TO THIS STATEMENT with:

 

Why don't you stop talking down to me Mme? I don't see things like you. Doesn't make me wrong.

 

Maybe it doesn't make you "wrong" (delusional, perhaps?) but it does put you firmly in the "thought police" camp if you "don't see" that a person's thoughts are their business, and if you believe that a person's thoughts can be harmful to another person.

 

Even though I've been annoyed, insulted and aggravated by you, DY, I feel bad for you.

 

Peace out.

[ThaWholigan]

Did I say anything about "fun"? I know it was personal, but your commitment to associating sexuality with shame unless it is directed solely towards ones significant other is likely going to be tough on a pubescent child. How will you enforce an anti-masturbation / fantasy regime? Will you require your child to report any and all sexually related thoughts to you?

 

Not to nitpick but this is a little bit of an extreme example, I don't think any of us can correctly predict how DY will raise her children without seeming pretty offensive in doing so.

 

And also, DY has actually expressed more than once that she is not against sexuality or anti-masturbation, but she is anti-porn. I think the way that she presents her POV is made to look more divisive than it actually is on here, even though I don't agree with all of what she says.

[zengirl]

The reality is we have fundementallly different view points on life Zengirl. I am not going to change your view point anymore then you are going to change mine. It's not a matter of me 'missing" something and "you" getting it. They are simply fundementally different beliefs.

 

You were arguing around my point, which is why I said "missing" it. You were not arguing the point I'd raised, but rather still reiterating another point. I'm not suggesting everyone need to agree with me at all---I am suggesting that if you want to argue my point, you need to first acknowledge it and address it. That's how real debate works.

 

As I said earlier, we simply aren't going to agree. You think that the example isn't good because the socialization of taboos. I think the example is good because of exactly that reason. Because it gives us a common ground to see a situation where thoughts matter in a very clear and distinct example. Because when it comes to fantasies of legal adults, it clearly would be much more varied and hard to discuss all the different introcies.

 

You didn't address the nature of taboos at all in your reasoning.

 

Wrong. I have had many discussion with people that disagree with points I make and never "felt' the response was a kneejerk reaction. There was a conversation between Theives and I that went very nicely and she certainly didn't agree with me on everypoint I was making.

 

The reality is that people already had kneejerk reactions way before I brought up the example of pedohphila. In general, people don't like the idea of having to be accountable for their thoughts or being judged for their thoughts.

 

I would disagree with the accountability thing because, as I said, I believe people are accountable for their thoughts, and I disagree with you and take away most of the same things others have said re: Thought police, etc.

 

But, no, no one likes to be 'judged' for anything, particularly not when it's done in the tone you raise in these posts, which is essentially criticism (a kind of judgement). People will never like criticism, especially criticism that is not constructive, and this one isn't.

 

Give me an example. Because to me, right or wrong/ correct or incorrect, are not as seperate as you seem to think.

 

Right/wrong: Moral issues, whether it be sexuality or drug use or freedom of speech vs. safety, etc.

 

Correct/incorrect: Factual issues, such as statistical realities or statements that can be fundamentally disproved or proved.

 

You should re-read your posts too if you think that you are not shaming either. Or that other people aren't either.

 

Provide an example of shaming. I certainly will disagree; disagreement is not shaming. Where you get into shaming is where you set aside what are appropriate amounts or good reason or so forth for masturbation or sexual fantasies --- shaming CAN be done in general terms and often is!

[Mme. Chaucer]

Not to nitpick but this is a little bit of an extreme example, I don't think any of us can correctly predict how DY will raise her children without seeming pretty offensive in doing so.

 

 

You're right, that was mean and out of line. I got pissed. I'm sorry.

[xxoo]

Yeah, that's right, *some* (not many) people have used the "thought police" comment because they didn't like what I had to say. But it had no baring as a rational logical response. It was really just a way to throw in some unneeded drama. "Thought Police" has become a popular term to throw around the internet anytime someone doesn't like someone else's opinions.

 

I've only used "thought police" on LS with regard to objections to a partner's fantasies.

 

It is not directed at a specific person, but rather the idea of being what I consider overly concerned with a partner's fantasies. I've used it on a number of threads regarding this matter, to describe how that would feel to both my H and me. My use of that term has nothing to do with YOU in particular.

 

Can you show an example where someone has used "thought police" with regard to an opinion that was unrelated to fantasies and/or unexpressed thoughts?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You're right, that was mean and out of line. I got pissed. I'm sorry.

 

Who are you apologizing too Mme Chaucer? ThaWholigan or me? Because when I pointed out that comment you just completely ignored it and breezed over it.

[TheBigQuestion]

I've rarely encountered a woman in a relationship who DIDN'T eventually admit to fantasizing about other men/having sex with other men at least occasionally.

 

Perhaps this thread would be more accurate if it was called "human psychology."

[Disenchantedly Yours]

DY, I hope you will take the advice you gave zengirl and read YOUR own posts very carefully.

 

It's interesting how almost all of your interactions on any thread follow the same pattern.

 

Also, most people who engage with you end up reacting to your "style" here in very similar ways.

 

You might want to take a look at that.

 

You seem very passionate about your beliefs, and as I have said before, many of your ideas are well presented and stimulating; worth discussing.

 

But what is the point when you always resort to shooting the other person down, dismissing whatever they might contribute, and denying your own statements?

 

How come then you can never talk about the parts of my ideas that you agree with? That are infact well presented? That are stimulating? That are worth discussing? Instead you just rip into me. And call me delusional. But at the same time, you say I make good points. Make up your freaking mind.

 

I have gone back and read my posts carefully repeatidly through this thread and I do not undrestand where alot of the conclusions you make come from. You have lied and twisted and manipulated my words to suit your own agenda. You have repeatidly put me down. You have made dishonest claims about things I said and attempted to draw connections where I was clear no connect was to be drawn. I have tried to correct these accusations only to have my comments ignored and for you to ignore it iterate your same points. You have lamblasted me at every turn and have the aducity to tell me that I have shot other people down or dismissed them. You want some facts Mme C? Then please take a factual look at your own posts and your own responses.

 

In post number 77, you have told me:

 

"It's this type of thinking where you veer off from reason into the territory of control issues (of your own) verging on the "thought police."

 

Have I ever critized you and told you that you were the thought police for what you believed? No. Quites simply, telling me I am "verging on the thought police" is ironically, some "thought policing" of your own. Funny how those of you who use that phrase fail to see the fact that calling other posters "thought police" is your own form of "thought policing". I simply said we see things differently. But you and Zengirl can't seem to accecpt that as an answer.

 

In post #80, you’ve made suggestions of “preachy” posters. In post #107, you out right say that I am “preachy”. In that same post you make the statement: “but I don't think that you are correct in your judgements about people who believe differently than you do.”

 

Show me what judgements I have made about people who believe differently then me! Show me some direct proof instead of that instead of just throwing around awful assumptions about other posters and trying to tout them as truth. That’s what a person who had a leg to stand on would do. I have told you that I am HAPPY, HAPPY, that you have a great relationships that works for you. I have wished you well in that relationship. I have no ill will toward you. I have told you that I think you probably would make a good mother and that your comments here are no reason for me to doubt that. So tell me what my judgements are about people who think differently then me. You better have some facts to back that up.

 

In post #89, in response to something EnigmaticClarity passive aggressively tried to suggest, you responded:

 

“Be fair; there are only a couple of voices of "misandrical point of view" speaking on this thread, and a lot of feminine defense of the male libido.”

 

I suggested you both be honest about who you were referring to and you both ignored the request choosing to hide behind indiscriminate name calling. Although considering your focus on me specifically, I don’t think it’s wrong to conclude that comment was partially intended for me. If I am wrong, go ahead and set the record straight. If I am right, *own* the fact that you and EnigmaticClarity where calling other female posters “misanderistic”. and be honest about which female posters you were calling as such. How about you try "owning it". How about you take your own advice?

 

In post #121, you tell me how defensive I am. (Gee, is it any wonder. YOu started an entirely new thread and decided to target me in that thread but where real careful not to mention any names to save your ass. But we both know what you were doing.) You suggestively put “platform” in quotes to mock my response to this subject.

 

In post #139 you attempted to imply that I found sexual fantasies “in general analogous to pedophilia”. Despite being pretty clear that I in no way thought that a fantasy of a grown adult was anywhere near on the same plane as a fantasy of a child. That that example was infact an “extreme” example used to showcase the reality that most people wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with someone that thought about children sexually even if they never acted on it.

 

In post #163 you suggested I would be an unfit mother because of my opinions on sexuality. Opinions you can't even get straight. Never did you say “yeah I am sorry DY, that wasn't cool”. No, you only acknowledge such a statement after another poster called you out for it. Then you say "sorry". But I am not even clear who that "apology" was for.

 

Again in post #163, You tell me I backpedal. Another fallacy on your part. However, you don’t go into where exactly the backpedalling is as you claim. You just throw the accusation out there and think that cements it.

 

In post #164 you say, “When you drag all people who have sexual fantasies into the realm of pedophiles or obsessive porn addicts, you are insulting - and lacking in understanding.”

 

You are lacking in understanding Mme C. And you are abusive. Because I never once ever said that sexual fantasies of adults was the same thing as having fantasies of kids.

 

In post # 180 you justify making a personal comment about my child reering abilities because of some nonsense that I suggested sex was shameful. All I have suggested is that self control is a great thing and that society doesn't practice enough of it. Through food, money or sex. And that people are probably stimulated sexually more then what is normal because of technology and all the readily available sexual images. That is NOT anywhere cloes to having a shame for sex as you completely disparagingly suggest.

 

In post #180 When I used the word "alot" (oh the horrors that my grammar isn't perfect) you referred to me a condesending website about the ills of using "alot". A cheap shot if you ask me. I know my grammar and spelling isn't perfect. You want to castrate me for that too? Well you clearly already have. I don't even need to ask.

 

In post #180, you have attempted to paint the picture that I have called "they" (whoever "they" are) out for certain reactions. Yes, I have probably used the workd "kneejerk". But it was not to a "they". It was to one person. yes, I have said someone was twisting the truth. But it was not a "they" it was a "you". I told "you", you were twisting the truth. Implying that I said "they" or that I was accusing a large chunk of people of that when it was "you" i said was twisting the truth ironically proves my point. And yes, when people use the popular internet word " thought police" they are ironcially both using it to police another's thoughts themselves and because of "unneeded drama". But since there were only a few of you throwing around that word, it only applies to a few people.

 

You want to talk about how a mature intelligent person engages in discussion? Well look at the comments above and you tell me how mature you'e been.

 

In post # 181 you alude to my being "delusion". If that isn't dismissive and shooting a poster down, I don't know what is.

 

By the way, you keep talking about what people understand or don't. Well Wholigan seems to understand me fine:

 

And also, DY has actually expressed more than once that she is not against sexuality or anti-masturbation, but she is anti-porn. I think the way that she presents her POV is made to look more divisive than it actually is on here, even though I don't agree with all of what she says.

 

I think Wholigan is a pretty smart guy. What about you? He doesn't agree with me but he doesn't feel the need to belittle me either.

[TheBigQuestion]

DY, I think the issue is that the longer you have any back and forth exchange with any poster on a topic which you find particularly stimulating/offensive/important, the harder it is to understand exactly what it is you aim to do. You spend an awful lot of time criticizing overindulgence in pornography, yet you always fail to clearly and articulately express what it is you want people to do about it. What's your purpose in continuing to discuss this topic if you fail to appreciate the fact that you're in the vast minority in the way you view relationships, porn, and other salient issues of the day?

 

Another issue is that you consistently impute your own negative experiences with the opposite sex on the world as a whole. Going back to porn, for example, you always talk about how guys have tried out "porn moves" on you, or that you believe that porn makes men care less about the woman's pleasure and more about his own. You talk about how the media and porn made you believe that your own pleasure wasn't important, at least not in comparison to a man's pleasure. It would help you quite a bit if you actually talked about what awful, unspeakable things men have tried to do to you that you attribute to them watching porn. I'm willing to bet that most of these things were vanilla by almost any standard, but if it's something truly outrageous, I'm willing to concede it to you.

 

Still, your debate style does not lend itself well to actually discussing a subject. It looks more like a Republican presidential debate. Whether or not you realize it, you DO engage in lots of hyperbole and mischaracterization of other people's posts. If it wasn't true, you wouldn't be accused of doing so by so many posters here.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Hi ladies. A few of you suggested I go back and read my posts. I did.

 

I decided to break down my posts and pick comments I’ve made on this topic in bullet point view to make it more clear as to what I said. Some of you have accused me of certain things that are simply untrue.

 

The following comments from me show that I never said that it was “wrong” for a person to even fantasize. They also show that I do not lamenate for other people to control what others do more then it talks about people using self control for themselves and the idea of sexual indulgence in our society.

 

 

DY Post #54

 

No one is perfect...

("No one" would indicate me as well!)

 

....and all of us might have varying levels of fleeting thoughts about others.

(All of us, would also indicate me as well!)

 

But what always mattered to me is how a man lives his life and how he conducts himself and what *he* decides to focus on.

(Notice the use of what matters to *me* Mme. C and how it's a commentary on what matters to *me* and obviously might not matter to others!)

 

For me, I need the kind of man that doesn't make fantasy a regularly active part of where he spends his time.

(Notice the use of "for me! Also notice my use of "regular active part" which suggests that I do understand that it's going to happen. I just don't want to be with a man that is doing it regularly!)

 

I need a man that wants to live in the real world with me, not in a fantasy world with other women. I don't think that's a bad thing to ask for.

(Notice the use of *I* and *me*, pin pointing how this applies to my life! I don't think what I am asking for is that horrible!)

 

There are men out there like this. Although our culture promotes all kinds of self indulgence (especially in "fantasy")

(A simple commentary on social indulgence! This clearly doesn't apply to anyone person specifically! How could it?)

 

For me, what it comes down to is how hard a man tires, rather then if he is perfect.

(There is that "for me" again. Qualifying personal needs for me. Please note how I don't expect men to be perfect and never think of other women. I just want a man that tries. What's so bad about that?)

 

Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of men even try anymore to deny themselves any little bit of sexual pleasure they can get when it comes to fantasy. Just look at how many men indulge in fantasy regularly today in ways their fathers never did.

(Is this that untrue? I don't think so. It goes inline with the over sexualization of out culure. Which is completely different from saying sex is shameful. Also notice how I use the phrase "I don't think*, which again implies that this is just my thoughts and doesn't need to be anyone elses!)

 

Relationships are compromised of not just the physical, but the emotional and mental as well. I think physical, emotional and mental commitment is equally important in a relationship.

(Again, *I* think these three things are important in a relationship. That's all!)

 

The mental (even emotional) part of it is harder for people and no one is ever going to be perfect in this regard.

(Look at that! DY doesn't expect anyone to be perfect. She knows men are going to have sexual thoughts.)

 

There isn't much self control being practiced anymore. And not even just self control, there just seems to be a hugely consuming society from money, to food to sex.

(Mme C, this was a point you even agreed with me on!)

 

Mme. C, you have repeatidly suggested that I was making up regulations about how others should live. When most of my posts refer to what *I* needed or what applied “for me. I have never suggested that anything I said should apply for *you* or other people. When you told me about your relationship and how it works, I said "good for you" and that I wished you many more happy years together with your partner.

 

Shall we continue with further proof?

 

Post # 60

Our culture is seeped in sex 24/7. And while I think sex and some amount of fantasy is healthy and normal. I don't think the level of what we have today is.

 

Post #74

Mme. Chaucer, I can't help but personally equate that a man that thinks about banging other women while in a relationship with me, does support some disatisfaction with what I have to offer him. Why is it we tell ourselves that it's natural for us to think about other people (and it is), but that it's not natural to feel worried about what our partners are thinking about and what that means to their involvement with us?

Men have natural feelings. Women have natural feelings. Neither should be shamed for their responses but both sohuld work to control themselves for the good of their relationship. Women shouldn't shame men and men shouldn't shame women. I do feel though that women are often shamed for their natural feelings while we are told what men need because they are men.

 

I can't stop not thinking that if a man is focusing on other women within his relationship with me, that it infact does point to a certain amount of disatisfaction.

"A certain amount". Certainly not complete disatisfaction but clearly he wouldn't be seeking out other visuals of women if he was satisfied in what he had. To me, I am just being honest about what seems like a logical conclusion.

 

I don't think it means he doesn't care about me.

(Showing that sexual fantasy or thoughts doesn't mean he doesn't care about his partner.)

 

But it doesn't point to a happy fullfilled man either.

(Explaining how actions can show needs and feelings.

 

I don't think it's fair to say that it's okay for men to indulge in every little fantasy they have everytime they come in contact with a beautiful woman but that women are the ones that are suppose to control their own emotional response to this. Perhaps its time for more understanding on both sides

. (Is this fair? Is it an unreasonable request to ask that both be more kind to the other? I don't think so. And by asking both sides to be more kind, that includes me again!)

 

 

Not just asking women to "understand" about "male needs". Maybe it's time to ask men to understand why sometimes their sexual behaviors toward other women can be hurtful even if they are not directly going after that woman.

(Well this doesn't sound so bad does it?)

 

That's something I always struggle with.

( I admit it's a struggle for me! What an evil bitch I am!)

 

 

Post # 78

However, whenever these type of discussion come up, it seems to be all about the sexual freedom and being sensitive to how a man needs x amount of women to feel happy in his life vs asking men to ever consider how diffucilt this is and how much pressure there is on just a regular women that knows that her man is confronted with millions upon millions of goregous women everyday.

(This is a commentary on how we ask women to have self control and confidence in their men by denying the feelings his porn use/sexual fantasies might cause but we don't ask men to have the same self control when it comes to such things from the opposite side. Again, I don't see this being a horrible statement to make.)

 

Very little do we ever ask men to show sensitivity. But we sure see a lot of men asking for women to understand how they just need fast amount of visuals of other women to be happy as men.

(How many times in this thread alone has the message been about being understanding about fantasy about other people. How many times in this thread alone have we heard any comment about being sensitive tow omen on this issue?)

 

I think a man's fantasy life is a good reflection of partly where his head is at

. (Seriously, who would disagree?)

 

 

I think the type of porn a man looks at, what he thinks about, who he thinks about, can be a reflection of this.

(Does he like seeing women mistreated and abused or what..)

 

I also agree that there needs to be more empowerment for sex workers.

(I am all for empowerment for sex workers!)

 

I never said fantasy itself was wrong. I said that we have a culture that perpuates an over ambundance of fantasy.

(Please go back through my comments to see the truth in this one.)

 

Just like we have a culture that perpuates an over ambundance of food and eating. However, with eating, the affects are much easier to chart then with fantasy and sex. I however believe sex is a bigger addiction then anything food could ever be. Not that fantasy is wrong all the time. That the level our culture promotes and indulgence in it has changed and not for the better.

(I outright say that fantasy isn't wrong all the time! Despite other posters like Mme C saying that I said fantasy was wrong.)

 

I do not think masturbation is wrong in or out of a relationship

(Shocking! DY doesn't think masturbation is "wrong" in a relationsihp.)

 

I however think that we have reached an epidemic level of promoting sex in our culture that might promote a lot of unneccesary masturbation for people.

(We are bombarded with sexual imagery more then ever before in history. It's very titulating and it works in making people think about sex more which eventually does have plausable affects on the brain and stimulation. )

 

We don't require people to act with any self control. We are overshot with so much sexual imagery that our brains soak it up and ask for "more, more, more".

(Who disagrees?)

 

I never said or thought fantasy was wrong. I think the level our society promotes these things has gotten out of control. And becaue the affects of such thing are less obvious then someone that eats food, I believe it makes it more dangerous then the epidemic we have with food and being overweight.

(I have said a similiar statement several times now.)

 

No one is perfect I was completely clear about the fact that I don't expect a man to be perfect,

(This was in response to something you had said to me Mme C)

 

I said to the original poster that people are going to fantasize. But the difference is in how much a person indulges and TRIES to maintain some sense of control vs someone who just decides to pull out anytime they feel a little twinge in their pants.

(Seems pretty clear to me.)

 

5 years ago you use to hear men say "I only look at porn once in awhile". I don't hear that anymore.

(This just showcases my personal experience and how I have seen men in my experience change with the offset of porn.)

 

I also don't understanding how "focusing" is not hte same as thinking about of fantasizing. Care to explain for me?

(This was a response to you Mme. YOu never did answer that question.

 

Being "present" I guess means different things for different people. I don't particularly consider a guy "present" if he's thinking aout all the other women he wants to bang.

( In this I admit that people have different opinions! I say that I personally do not think a man is "present" when he thinks of other women. Seems logical!)

 

We agree. I never said anything to the contrary. I however thing we've reached a point and time with technology that it's no longer just about freedom of sexual expression and healthy attitudes about sex. We are not a sexually balanced and healthy culture just because sex is more available and out there. Any more then when sexuality was repressed. But no one is lamenating for sexual repression. Self control doesn't have to equal repression.

 

 

Post #94

I never once suggested that women don't also fantasize.

I never once suggested that fantasizing was unhealthy.

I never once suggested that people, men or women, were perfect or that you should expect perfection.

What I do suggest is that we live in a culture of over-abundance and sex is included within that. I think it's a lie to believe that when it comes to sex, everything is okay, healthy or right.

 

I think it matters where my head is at. It matters what thoughts I am thinking.Just as it matters what emotions I am feeling for someone and how I act phyiscally.

 

I am not suggestion that that takes away all thoughts. I am not suggestion that I am perfect or that other people should be either. I just see a lack of even attempting to "try" any form of self control in today's culture.

(Culture meaning "men AND women". Culture meaning a general sampling, not specific to anyone person. )

 

People seem to underplay the mental aspects. Certainly thoughts will come into your head, thoughts you may not even want there. But what one does with those thoughts matter. Do they indulge? Or do they redirect themselves and master some self control?

(Hey and I totally admit, I am always a work and progress and this is something I try to work on. Not just of the sexual element either. It's what makes me "improve.)

 

Of course people have differing libidos. But we also live in a culture where we are given sexual messages quite often. Often, directing our thoughts there more then they might have gone there naturally. I think you probably have a lot of people relaying more on porn then in recent generations because it's simply there.

 

Yeah, I have gone back through my posts and this was a good chunk of the message. Tell me again how I said fantasy was wrong Mme C. Or that I expected anyone to never have sexual thoughts. Tell me again how I thought I was better then anyone or I was setting up a strict line of behavior for anyone person.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

DY, I think the issue is that the longer you have any back and forth exchange with any poster on a topic which you find particularly stimulating/offensive/important, the harder it is to understand exactly what it is you aim to do. You spend an awful lot of time criticizing overindulgence in pornography, yet you always fail to clearly and articulately express what it is you want people to do about it. What's your purpose in continuing to discuss this topic if you fail to appreciate the fact that you're in the vast minority in the way you view relationships, porn, and other salient issues of the day?

 

Another issue is that you consistently impute your own negative experiences with the opposite sex on the world as a whole. Going back to porn, for example, you always talk about how guys have tried out "porn moves" on you, or that you believe that porn makes men care less about the woman's pleasure and more about his own. You talk about how the media and porn made you believe that your own pleasure wasn't important, at least not in comparison to a man's pleasure. It would help you quite a bit if you actually talked about what awful, unspeakable things men have tried to do to you that you attribute to them watching porn. I'm willing to bet that most of these things were vanilla by almost any standard, but if it's something truly outrageous, I'm willing to concede it to you.

 

Still, your debate style does not lend itself well to actually discussing a subject. It looks more like a Republican presidential debate. Whether or not you realize it, you DO engage in lots of hyperbole and mischaracterization of other people's posts. If it wasn't true, you wouldn't be accused of doing so by so many posters here.

 

Glad you got your pitch fork too. Though I am not surprised considering your history BigQuestion.

 

I began responding but deleted that response. You don't have much respect for anything I have to say anyway, as reflected above. You expect me to share my personal experiences but your responses is acutally quite mocking of them. Why would I open myself up to that level of criticism when you already are criticising me? I have become the dumping ground for several posters here while at the same time being told I have mischarcterized other posters. Ironic. You can look at me like a piece of **** if you want and speak down to me. You have above. But I know I am not stupid. And I know that I have a lot of intelligent things to say. And I know that currently, I am not the only problem on this thread. I just have become the scapegoat while the rest of you get to act and say anything you want to and think your superior while doing it. I simply don't get it. This thread has developed a mob mentality.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Disenchantedly Yours

[TheBigQuestion]

Glad you got your pitch fork too. Though I am not surprised considering your history BigQuestion.

 

I began responding but deleted that response. You don't have much respect for anything I have to say anyway, as reflected above. You expect me to share my personal experiences but your responses is acutally quite mocking of them. Why would I open myself up to that level of criticism when you already are criticising me? I have become the dumping ground for several posters here while at the same time being told I have mischarcterized other posters. Ironic. You can look at me like a piece of **** if you want and speak down to me. You have above. But I know I am not stupid. And I know that I have a lot of intelligent things to say. And I know that currently, I am not the only problem on this thread. I just have become the scapegoat while the rest of you get to act and say anything you want to and think your superior while doing it. I simply don't get it. This thread has developed a mob mentality.

 

Hey, the ball is in your court. If you refuse to give any concrete examples of what you rally against, if you refuse to articulate exactly what it is you hope to accomplish whenever you bash the media and porn, that isn't really my problem. I give credit to sound ideas that are backed up empirically and logically regardless of who they comes from. Have I been condescending to you? Sure. It's hard not to be after I spent a lot of time and effort, both in your previous incarnation as Jersey Shortie and more recently, trying to discuss a variety of ideas with you only to have them mischaracterized and twisted in the same way many other posters, both in this thread and others, have claimed that you do.

 

Whenever you encounter any sort of substantiated or spirited disagreement, you pretty much always react in the way you just did above.

[xxoo]

(Look at that! DY doesn't expect anyone to be perfect. She knows men are going to have sexual thoughts.)

 

The repeated use of "no one is perfect" seems to imply that there is something imperfect about enjoying a fantasy.

 

You talk about an effort to try to be better....better than having a fantasy?

 

Do you think a man who occasionally has a fantasy should feel bad about it? Should try to "do better"? Is there a level wherein it is perfectly ok and he can enjoy guilt-free?

 

It is hard to understand how fantasy is normal and ok, but men should try to avoid it.

 

The guilt. Some of us were raised with a lot of guilt attached to sexual behavior (masturbation, premarital sex, enjoying sex AT ALL), and have moved past it to a place of freedom from guilt. Maybe that explains some of the reaction to attaching guilty feelings to pleasures that exist only in the mind.

 

Also, you read as much into other people's posts as they read into yours. I don't attack you for it, but you have accused me of saying things I didn't say, even after I explained otherwise.

[Mme. Chaucer]

In post #180 When I used the word "alot" (oh the horrors that my grammar isn't perfect) you referred to me a condesending website about the ills of using "alot". A cheap shot if you ask me. I know my grammar and spelling isn't perfect. You want to castrate me for that too? Well you clearly already have. I don't even need to ask.

 

The Thought Police vs. The Grammar Police! We should get flashy spandex costumes and go mano a mano, cage fighting style! Oh, wait. That might provide fodder for inappropriate sexual fantasies and unnecessary masturbation for some men, among them some in comitted relationships! So, scratch that!

 

 

I KID, I KID!

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Hey, the ball is in your court. If you refuse to give any concrete examples of what you rally against, if you refuse to articulate exactly what it is you hope to accomplish whenever you bash the media and porn, that isn't really my problem. I give credit to sound ideas that are backed up empirically and logically regardless of who they comes from. Have I been condescending to you? Sure. It's hard not to be after I spent a lot of time and effort, both in your previous incarnation as Jersey Shortie and more recently, trying to discuss a variety of ideas with you only to have them mischaracterized and twisted in the same way many other posters, both in this thread and others, have claimed that you do.

 

Whenever you encounter any sort of substantiated or spirited disagreement, you pretty much always react in the way you just did above.

 

That's right. I refuse to dip into personal intimate details of my life because I don't think anyone here has much respect for me to begin with. You especially. YOu and I have never gotten along. I don't know why all the sudden you would think that I would open up intimate parts of my life to you. I get told quite often how many intelligent and stimulating ideas I share and then people casterate me for the ones they disagree with. It's simply hurtful. I don't even try to say anything specific about other people until those people say disparging things about me.

 

Right, the ball is my court to get ripped into again for what I personally believe. You all are ganging up on me for no other reason then the fact that I shared my thoughts on this topic! You can sit on your side of the computer and rational being condescending because of who you think I am and then ask me to share intimate details about my life. Yeah, that's real sincere Big Question.

 

It stopped being a spirited disagreement a few pages back. But you made sure to jump and and cast your pitch fork too. I don't think you or any other poster here give a crap about anything other then putting me down at the moment and telling me how much I have "mischaracterized" them when that's all that's been done to me. I think you are just looking for an oppurtunity to critize me. You succeeded. Congrats. What more could you possibly want.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

The Thought Police vs. The Grammar Police! We should get flashy spandex costumes and go mano a mano, cage fighting style! Oh, wait. That might provide fodder for inappropriate sexual fantasies and unnecessary masturbation for some men, among them some in comitted relationships! So, scratch that!

 

 

I KID, I KID!

 

You're just really mean Mme. Chacuer. I bet you are totally getting a kick how everyone is piling on me.

[xxoo]

Consider this analogy, the food analogy DY already brought up....

 

Yes, it is good to eat largely healthy foods. But most can safely ENJOY a few portions of sugary sweets a week, with no health problems and no guilt.

 

If I had a partner who thought it was normal to desire ice cream, and ok to eat ice cream occasionally (nobody's perfect!), but considered it "better" to resist eating it as much as possible, I would think my partner had food issues. I would continue to eat ice cream, but probably eat it when they weren't around, because I just want to ENJOY my ice cream, as part of an overall healthy diet. No guilt.

[Mme. Chaucer]

You're just really mean Mme. Chacuer. I bet you are totally getting a kick how everyone is piling on me.

 

Oh, come on. That was valid snarky humor.

 

I am not getting a "kick" out of people piling on you. I am bemused about how you absolutely refuse to engage with any of the ideas thoughtfully presented to you. Rather, you continue to thrash around in circular, unreasoned and very angry arguing. I am not going to get into any more of it with you. Frankly, it reminds me of fruitless flareups with my daughter when she was a teenager, that usually went down a rabbit hole on the tail of "I never said …" (coming from her.)

 

People here are mostly reacting similarly to what YOU PUT OUT HERE. It's not "piling on." And, in spite of you, this discussion has a lot of interest for others.

 

Don't lose sight of the OP. Though you continue to go to "maybe for YOU, but not for ME," (please don't say "I never said that." You did. I don't have the energy or the will to go back and find it) the question here is / was:

 

Is it true that even in the happiest of relationships, men still wonder about other girls and what sex would be like with them?

 

This isn't about me or you, DY. We aren't men. I think it's natural that the thread morphed into our varying opinions about this, and about whether women do it too or not, but the bottom line is that yes, evidently the majority of men do, to one extent or another.

[TheBigQuestion]

That's right. I refuse to dip into personal intimate details of my life because I don't think anyone here has much respect for me to begin with. You especially. YOu and I have never gotten along. I don't know why all the sudden you would think that I would open up intimate parts of my life to you. I get told quite often how many intelligent and stimulating ideas I share and then people casterate me for the ones they disagree with. It's simply hurtful. I don't even try to say anything specific about other people until those people say disparging things about me.

 

Right, the ball is my court to get ripped into again for what I personally believe. You all are ganging up on me for no other reason then the fact that I shared my thoughts on this topic! You can sit on your side of the computer and rational being condescending because of who you think I am and then ask me to share intimate details about my life. Yeah, that's real sincere Big Question.

 

It stopped being a spirited disagreement a few pages back. But you made sure to jump and and cast your pitch fork too. I don't think you or any other poster here give a crap about anything other then putting me down at the moment and telling me how much I have "mischaracterized" them when that's all that's been done to me. I think you are just looking for an oppurtunity to critize me. You succeeded. Congrats. What more could you possibly want.

 

Nope. All I'm trying to do is figure out exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

[TheBigQuestion]

 

 

 

This isn't about me or you, DY. We aren't men. I think it's natural that the thread morphed into our varying opinions about this, and about whether women do it too or not, but the bottom line is that yes, evidently the majority of men do, to one extent or another.

 

It's true. And a lot of women admitted to doing it as well. Nothing wrong with either, really.