Male psychology

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo

The repeated use of "no one is perfect" seems to imply that there is something imperfect about enjoying a fantasy.

 

You talk about an effort to try to be better....better than having a fantasy?

 

Do you think a man who occasionally has a fantasy should feel bad about it? Should try to "do better"? Is there a level wherein it is perfectly ok and he can enjoy guilt-free?

 

Do you want an honest response XXOO, are are you only looking for me to conform to what you think? Why do you both ask me questions you both know you are not going to respect the answer to because it comes from me?

 

 

It is hard to understand how fantasy is normal and ok, but men should try to avoid it.

 

I never said anyone should "avoid" it. I have said repeatidly that self control in all things is a GOOD thing. Sexuality included in that. Self control does not have to equal repression of one's sexuality either. I want to be with a man that focuses on me and our relationship instead of every woman he doesn't have. I want a man that doesn't just exercise physical control and feels proud of himself because he didn't phyiscally go bang other women but that exercises some mental control and doesn't feel the need to indulge in every pretty woman that crosses his path. I don't want to be with a man that is dependent on porn for his physical sexual happiness. If that is not the man for you, that is fine by me. I do not think my requests are unreasonable. Yes, fantasy is normal. That doesn't mean that you should spend all day doing it. Yes fantasy is normal, that does not mean that we do not have a culture and society over exposed to sexual titulation.

 

If you want to be with a certain type of man, I do not bemoan your choices. You will choose to be with the type of man that you think is *best* for you. Why am I not allowed that same freedom? I have said from the start that these were my opinions "for me". You do not agree. I am fine with that.

Please show me the same respect.

 

The guilt. Some of us were raised with a lot of guilt attached to sexual behavior (masturbation, premarital sex, enjoying sex AT ALL), and have moved past it to a place of freedom from guilt. Maybe that explains some of the reaction to attaching guilty feelings to pleasures that exist only in the mind.

 

If you previously attached guility feelings to pleasure, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you've over come it. I am glad you live in the kind of sexual freedom you prefer and works for your life. I would never suggest you do anything else.

 

Also, you read as much into other people's posts as they read into yours. I don't attack you for it, but you have accused me of saying things I didn't say, even after I explained otherwise.

 

I'm doing the best I can. I have a lot of people responding to me and attacking me too. I try to explain myself the best I can and I get mocked for everything right down to my grammar. It's not right.

 

You are not like Mme C. But I do often feel attacked by you too.

 

Can you show me a place where I accused you of saying something you didnt say? I really need to see an example of this to understand better.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Nope. All I'm trying to do is figure out exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

 

I'm not trying to accomplish anything. Anymore then anyone else. We are all here sharing our opinion on the topic. Why do I have to be trying to "accomplish" anything while everyone else here is simpy posting?

 

I also do not think you much care about anything I have to say. You have no respect for me. You gloated above about beign condesending to me. Why do you care when we both know you don't have a geniune respect for me or my opinions?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

Oh, come on. That was valid snarky humor.

 

After all the horrible things you said to me, about me, and have acted like i am a lower life form then the everyone else here, now you want to be able to joke with me? That's not how it works Mme. You were pushing your thumb in a sore.

 

I am not getting a "kick" out of people piling on you. I am bemused about how you absolutely refuse to engage with any of the ideas thoughtfully presented to you.

 

Excuse me if I doubt the level of sincerity in your first sentence when you were previously mad then started cracking jokes at my expense.

 

I try to engage in MANY of the responses presented to me. I simply see things differently. I do not ask you see them my way. I don't tell you that I hope you're relationships crash and burn because you conduct them differently from me. I wished you well in you relationships.

 

I am annoyed about how often you and other posters talk about how intelligent alot of my responses are and how they make you think but you never choose to address those with nearly the same depth you address the points you disagree on with me. If this was a balanced discussion you would say, " I agree with you here DY, but I disagree with you here and this is why.' Instead you call me "thought police', or "delusional", or that I hate men. I don't hate men. I'm a sweet person in real life and I have a big heart and I am sick of getting deminished here because people can't handle my opinions. I NEVER once told you anything close to the coments you made to me.

 

Rather, you continue to thrash around in circular, unreasoned and very angry arguing.

 

I think my response have been very reasoned. You made a lot of claims about things I thought or said. I went back through my posts and posted the sentences that should show you that what you claim I think, and what I really think are two different things. But did you address that post? No. YOu ignored it. Don't tell me that I don't respond well. And don't tell me about angry posting when you just engaged in pages of it all directed toward me.

 

I am not going to get into any more of it with you. Frankly, it reminds me of fruitless flareups with my daughter when she was a teenager, that usually went down a rabbit hole on the tail of "I never said …" (coming from her.)

 

Right. Another nice comment on your part Mme. Talking down to me again. Thanks.

 

People here are mostly reacting similarly to what YOU PUT OUT HERE. .

 

A few of you are. But not everyone. Many people think I make alot of sense. They might not agree with me all the time, but they don't have to take the shots you and a few others have.

 

It's not "piling on." And, in spite of you, this discussion has a lot of interest for others

 

Right, yeah, not piling on me. Okay. Sure.

 

What does that even me? In "spite" of me the discussion has a lot of interest?

 

That seems like another purposely degrading comment toward me Mme. Whatever. I don't talk to you like that. I'm jsut sick of you telling me how worthless I am in this post.

 

Don't lose sight of the OP. Though you continue to go to "maybe for YOU, but not for ME," (please don't say "I never said that." You did. I don't have the energy or the will to go back and find it) the question here is / was:

 

Don't lecture me about losing sight of the OP when you've made this thread your mission to crap on me every chance you got.

 

I say " i never said that" when you say things I didn't say! You don't even ask me what I think most of the time. And when you do ask, and I respond, you tell me all kinds of things about me!

 

 

This isn't about me or you, DY. We aren't men. I think it's natural that the thread morphed into our varying opinions about this, and about whether women do it too or not, but the bottom line is that yes, evidently the majority of men do, to one extent or another.

 

No we aren't men. But men aren't us either. And I think the issue is better presented with treating each side with kindness about their feelings and needs. Not just one side.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I am annoyed about how often you and other posters talk about how intelligent alot of my responses are and how they make you think but you never choose to address those with nearly the same depth you address the points you disagree on with me.

 

That's because the points we disagree upon are usually the ones that are pertinent to the thread under discussion.

 

Besides that, you have once again embarked on a tremendously long and involved post about what a baddie you think I am. That's off topic, and nonsense. I don't care, either. So stop it.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

That's because the points we disagree upon are usually the ones that are pertinent to the thread under discussion.

 

Besides that, you have once again embarked on a tremendously long and involved post about what a baddie you think I am. That's off topic, and nonsense. I don't care, either. So stop it.

 

 

Only to defend myself in response to your own defamatory comments about me. You like to ignore the personal attacks you make after you make them and not take responsibilty for them. I refer you to post 188. You acted rather abusively. But I realize you don't care. Because you get off on it. And why all this nonsense? Because I shared my opinion like everyone else and you and some other people don't agree. Ridiculous.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Disenchantedly Yours

[xxoo]

Can you show me a place where I accused you of saying something you didnt say? I really need to see an example of this to understand better.

 

Things like this, to start:

 

Do you want an honest response XXOO, are are you only looking for me to conform to what you think? Why do you both ask me questions you both know you are not going to respect the answer to because it comes from me?

 

I must be a slow learner, because I am honestly shocked every time you respond like that to my questions. And you respond like that to me a lot!

 

Another--earlier in the thread, you accused me of saying that you said people wouldn't masturbate without porn, or something like that. I didn't say that, and I didn't even THINK that (why would I, it is completely contrary to your state pov), but even when I explained otherwise you continued to accuse me of saying that.

 

And every time you say "we both know" or "let's be honest" (again, often in response to my me), it seems like you are accusing me of being dishonest. Still not sure if that is how you intend it.

 

 

If you want to be with a certain type of man, I do not bemoan your choices. You will choose to be with the type of man that you think is *best* for you. Why am I not allowed that same freedom? I have said from the start that these were my opinions "for me". You do not agree. I am fine with that.

Please show me the same respect.

 

I respect you choosing any type of man you want.

 

What I disagree with is your characterization of men in happy relationships as follows:

 

I want to be with a man that focuses on me and our relationship instead of every woman he doesn't have. I want a man that doesn't just exercise physical control and feels proud of himself because he didn't phyiscally go bang other women but that exercises some mental control and doesn't feel the need to indulge in every pretty woman that crosses his path. I don't want to be with a man that is dependent on porn for his physical sexual happiness. If that is not the man for you, that is fine by me. I do not think my requests are unreasonable. Yes, fantasy is normal. That doesn't mean that you should spend all day doing it. Yes fantasy is normal, that does not mean that we do not have a culture and society over exposed to sexual titulation.

 

No one wants those things. Those are great points. Gosh, I hope you don't think my man is like that!

 

But that is NOT what the men who respond saying "yes, I wonder about sex with other women while in a happy relationship" are saying that they do! It just isn't reality for the vast majority of people in happy relationships.

[Mme. Chaucer]

DY, here is a quote from a post you made in another thread. Would you consider taking your own advice, here and in general?

 

But if that's how you feel, then simply don't talk to me since you've done just a fine job of "accurately assessing" me. You got me all figured out and you know who I am. You don't think much of me? Then simply cease to address me. That should be no skin off your back. Yet here you are, you continue to address me out of some sick twisted desire to beat me down. Can't get your jollies kicking puppies?

 

Your behavior isn't anything to write home to mom about. Perhaps you should do some self evaluation because you sure are eager to tell everyone else who they are and what they are without any data to support it.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

DY, here is a quote from a post you made in another thread. Would you consider taking your own advice, here and in general?

 

That's off topic, and nonsense. I don't care, either. So stop it.

 

Tell me how bringing in text from other threads in other conversations with other posters is on topic in this thread. You can't even practice what you tell other posters to do Mme.

 

How about taking your own advice for a change. You could even try giving "owning it" a chance.

[zengirl]

The following comments from me show that I never said that it was “wrong” for a person to even fantasize. They also show that I do not lamenate for other people to control what others do more then it talks about people using self control for themselves and the idea of sexual indulgence in our society.

 

 

DY Post #54

 

("No one" would indicate me as well!)

 

(All of us, would also indicate me as well!)

 

But that #54 is saying it's wrong, as it's saying it's a failing that keeps one from being perfect (well, it's implying it perhaps, but you've made it even more clear here!). How can it be not wrong but imperfect? That makes. . . no sense, logically. Your post clearly sets sexual fantasies as an imperfection of some kind, thus making them 'wrong'.

 

(A simple commentary on social indulgence! This clearly doesn't apply to anyone person specifically! How could it?)

 

It's your assumptions on what constitutes social 'indulgence' that most people react to and disagree with.

 

I think XXOO makes some great points on your choice of discourse. Whether you add "for me" or not, you are making generalizations and judgement of these behaviors and stating how you feel others should feel, many times in this thread.

 

I don't have time (or, rather, patience) to do the whole list of examples and cite post numbers and so forth, but your attitudes are fairly clear. Why not own them?

 

And, for the record, no one is suggesting what you should look for in a partner or not, they are rather just saying that they find sexual fantasies to be healthy. You may certainly disagree with that, if you like, but when people react to your assertions and attitudes that such fantasies are unhealthy, they are not stating that YOU must have them or welcome a mate who has them (not that you could ever really know anyway). I mean, I think we can agree that leafy green vegetables ARE healthy, but if someone doesn't want to eat them or go to dinner with someone who eats them, that's there prerogative. It's not the same as declaring something unhealthy or healthy to state a preference.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo;3822356]Things like this, to start:

 

Do you want an honest response XXOO, are are you only looking for me to conform to what you think? Why do you both ask me questions you both know you are not going to respect the answer to because it comes from me?

 

I must be a slow learner, because I am honestly shocked every time you respond like that to my questions. And you respond like that to me a lot!

 

I'm shocked that you are shocked XXOO. Because thus far, whenever we have an exchange in dialogue, it's because you find fault with my own views. So when you ask me a question, I often perceive it to be asked, not because you respect or want to really know my differeing views, but it's because you have a desire to say how wrong I am for my own views. Usually you use yourself and your relationship with your husband as an example for all the ways I am wrong. It seems you only ask me quesitons and wait for me to say something so you can disagree with it. Because that's basically how our conversations have gone thus far for the most part. Do you agree or do you disagree?

 

I am FINE with you wanting to fantasize and having a relationship with your husband where you both fantasize as much as it pleases you about whoever it pleases you to do so and where you are both happy people. But you have been a bit mocking about my own opinions on this. So what? I want a man that uses self control? Self control does not have to equal sexual repression. I have said a million times in different ways that I never expected anyone to be perfect. (You seemed to take issue with that too which completely baffles me!) I have also said that I never expect a man or woman to never have a sexual thought about another person again. But then I get castrated because I like some amount of self control in a relationship. All I have said is that I rather be with a man that practiced some kind of control sexually, even with his thoughts "at times" then one that just all over the place with his thoughts of other women. I do not think denying myself one thought of a man is going to send me into repression or an early grave.

 

And when I have tried to explain this, your response was:

 

It is hard to understand how fantasy is normal and ok, but men should try to avoid it.

 

Well "avoid" wasn't my word. I never EVER said, "men should avoid fantasy." I said fantasy was normal but some "self control" should be practiced too and that we live in a culture that uses sex as a social bartering tool for attention which soaks us with more sexual images then we use to see. And people can't handle that. That I think sex is more in your face today, that I don't think it's healthy, and that it probably puts a disproportionate amount of attention on sex then what is healthy or needs to be. The fact that I personally think self control should be applied to mental aspects and not just physical ones is offensive to people. I just don't know why.

 

Do I care if what you and your husband need to do to make your relationship happy is different then mine? No. I am happy for you. I am glad you have a fantastic relationship that works for you. But why the pressing need to conform me to the way you think?

 

Perhaps we can both agree that we have often misunderstood each other since BOTH of us seem to feel that way.

 

Lets look at some of our conversations.

 

Conversation 1

You said: But that isn't my experience of a man in a happy marriage at all. Thank goodness!

 

Okay, that isn't your experience. That's good for you. But that doesn't disprove what I believe. And often your response is to talk about how great your relationship is with your husband despite how it goes against what I talk about. That works for YOU. And I am happy for you. Why do you care what kind of relationship I need?

 

You don't say these things because you honesty are interested in my opinions. You simply say them because you want to prove me wrong. You mention many times about how "thank goodness" you're not that or this or that never happened to you. Well Okay. I am very happy for you.

 

I have simply never felt like you had much respect for my comments XXOO. From comments you've made in response to me yourself and comments you engaged in with other posteres like Mme. Granted, you are not defamatory like Mme. (And thank you for sticking to the the exchange and not saying negative things about me as a poster. I do appreciate that greatly.) You seem to just ask questions so you can point out where you think I am flawed and wrong. I guess that's the nature of the board but I simply don't think like you do. We have different through processes. It makes the world turn. I am not an unintelligent person. Neither are you. We are just different. I suspect that our responses play off of each other and is mixed with our personal interpretation of the meaning of what is being said.

 

 

Another--earlier in the thread, you accused me of saying that you said people wouldn't masturbate without porn, or something like that. I didn't say that, and I didn't even THINK that (why would I, it is completely contrary to your state pov), but even when I explained otherwise you continued to accuse me of saying that.

 

I will try to explain why I thought that. I hope I can explain it clearly.

 

Conversation 2

I said: Just look at how many men indulge in fantasy regularly today in ways their fathers never did.

 

You said: I highly doubt that former generations were more pure of thought.

 

I never said former generations where more "pure" of thought. I basically said that men are indulging in more fantasy and pornographic images then their fathers did simply because of technology. The "..in ways their fathers never did" was a reference to technology. I don't think this is an unreasonable claim. I think just like the amount of food being consumed is a problem, I think the amount of porn society is consuming has grown to be a problem. I think men (and women) are looking at more porn today then they ever would have without the internet. They are most likely being exposed to things they might never have thought of. Some think that's good, others thing that's bad. I did not say that former generations had more pure thoughts. That is why I felt the response was a bit unfair I guess.

 

In another conversation:

 

Conversation 3

I said: Do you disagree with the statement that with the advent of technology and internet porn that people are looking at more porn and spending more time masturbating? Yes or no.

 

You said: Having gone through puberty and adolescence pre-internet porn, I'm going to guess no. We didn't need porn to be obsessed with sex and masturbation.

 

The comment, "we didn't need porn to be obessed with sex and masturbation" seemed to me to be a comment on the fact that I think porn is a problem and you clearly don't. Which lead me to say, " ...I did not say we needed porn to be have sex and masturbate."I also included the statement "..with the advent of technology." That was a factor in my point.

 

Perhaps, if either of us are confused by a statement the other makes, it would both serve us better to "ask" what the person meant.

 

Here is another conversation between us:

 

[

B]Conversation 4[/b]

I said: Once again, I did not say we needed porn to be have sex and masturbate. I never implied that people where not having a lot of sex and masturbating before the internet. I said the advent of technology changed the way people have related to sex and masturbation.

 

You said: No, you said that people are spending more time masturbating, and asked if we disagreed, yes or no.

 

You're response left out a good chunk of what I really said. Refer to Conversation 3 where I said: "Do you disagree with the statement that with the advent of technology and internet porn that people are looking at more porn and (thus) spending more time masturbating?

 

I undestand you disagree with that statement. But I did not just simply say "people are spending more time masturbating" and offer no reason why I thought it. It was tied into how technology has changed people's personal habits.

 

And every time you say "we both know" or "let's be honest" (again, often in response to my me), it seems like you are accusing me of being dishonest. Still not sure if that is how you intend it.

 

No, I sincerely didn't intended that at all. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

 

I respect you choosing any type of man you want.

 

What I disagree with is your characterization of men in happy relationships as follows:

 

I want to be with a man that focuses on me and our relationship instead of every woman he doesn't have. I want a man that doesn't just exercise physical control and feels proud of himself because he didn't phyiscally go bang other women but that exercises some mental control and doesn't feel the need to indulge in every pretty woman that crosses his path. I don't want to be with a man that is dependent on porn for his physical sexual happiness. If that is not the man for you, that is fine by me. I do not think my requests are unreasonable. Yes, fantasy is normal. That doesn't mean that you should spend all day doing it. Yes fantasy is normal, that does not mean that we do not have a culture and society over exposed to sexual titulation.

 

And I disagree with your statement ot the contrary. We are very different people with different ideas.

 

No one wants those things. Those are great points. Gosh, I hope you don't think my man is like that!

 

First, I don't know you or your man.

 

Second, why would you care if your man wasn't right for me based on my own standards? "My own standards" is not meant to be a slight on you.

 

But that is NOT what the men who respond saying "yes, I wonder about sex with other women while in a happy relationship" are saying that they do! It just isn't reality for the vast majority of people in happy relationships

.

 

I wouldn't go so far to say that. Carhill was a man that said that he only thought about his partner when he was "happy" in his relationship. I have hearad other men say those kind of things too.

 

I also think that the amount someone is spending in fantasy land vs real life matters. Is a man always thinking about other women every chance he gets? Does he think of other women while he is having sex with this partner? I think these things matter. Does he focus on these things?

 

I know alot of people personally believe that porn give statisfaction. I simply don't think it does in a healthy way. I think it gives short term statisfaction but I also think it's created an environment for expectation and breeds more disatisfaction then anything else. Infact, there are studies that show how men have more negative opinions of their own partners after viewing a porno.

 

I am just simply tired of this porno expectation that I have personally experienced a lot of men having in their fantasy life. I am tired of being told how happy *I* need to be with the fact that he likes my great personality while he can lust after 18 year old implanted porn stars his hearts content and how he should indulge himself but I need to control my own emotions to that. It's simply unfair. Do you know that a few short years ago I use to hear men say, " I really don't look at porn that much." I do not here nearly the same amount of men say that statement anymore.

 

Do I think "fantasy" is wrong. No. I just think porn and technology has changed the discussion and the interaction. And some self control doesn't have to equal repression. Just as how all this "in your face sexuality" we currently have in culture doesn't exactly solve problems between the genders either.

[joystickd]

 

Do I think "fantasy" is wrong. No. I just think porn and technology has changed the discussion and the interaction. And some self control doesn't have to equal repression. Just as how all this "in your face sexuality" we currently have in culture doesn't exactly solve problems between the genders either.

LOL the more you talk the more out there you sound. You mention the acts on porn then talk about how you like rough sex. That is hypocritical. You mention of fantasy creates shame and repression.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

zengirl;3822937]But that #54 is saying it's wrong, as it's saying it's a failing that keeps one from being perfect (well, it's implying it perhaps, but you've made it even more clear here!). How can it be not wrong but imperfect? That makes. . . no sense, logically. Your post clearly sets sexual fantasies as an imperfection of some kind, thus making them 'wrong'.

 

Yes, please ignore all the times where I explained what I meant over and over again and infact said that I didn't say "fantasy" was "wrong" all because I said "no one is perfect."

 

No one IS perfect. Does that make any of us "failures"? No. Maybe you think not being perfect is "failing" but I never thought that.

 

It's your assumptions on what constitutes social 'indulgence' that most people react to and disagree with.

 

I believe I said that in the quote you used. Me: "A simple commentary on social indulgence! This clearly doesn't apply to anyone person specifically! How could it?)"

 

If I said that a lot of people ate too much and where over weight, no one would have batted an eye. Infact, alot of men would have chimed in and agreed with the fattening of "american women" specifically.

 

Sexuality proves to be a challenging and sensitive discussion to always have. It's easier for people to talk about specific porn acts (blow jobs, facials, doggy style..whatever) then it is to admit that perhaps we have a culture over indulgent in sex and fantasy. How is it that we easily recongnize how this happens with food but not with sex? Seriously, if I ate big macs like porn was being consumed by your average person today, I would be obese.

 

I think XXOO makes some great points on your choice of discourse. Whether you add "for me" or not, you are making generalizations and judgement of these behaviors and stating how you feel others should feel, many times in this thread.

 

I have my own beliefs Zengirl, as do you. But I have always been clear about how my thoughts apply for "me". Never claimed they had to apply for you.

 

I don't have time (or, rather, patience) to do the whole list of examples and cite post numbers and so forth, but your attitudes are fairly clear. Why not own them?

 

Well since I went back through my posts and read through them and took the time to do as a you and a few other women have suggested and made a repost of my comments, I have already "owned" them. I stand by everything I said. You have your opinion and thoughts of me and there is nothing I can do to change that.

 

And, for the record, no one is suggesting what you should look for in a partner or not, they are rather just saying that they find sexual fantasies to be healthy.

 

XXOO said: DY, you need to experience a relationship with a man whose fantasies DO help create a safe place for you.

 

I also think sexual fantasies CAN be healthy. But I also think that because of a lot of unhealthy behaviors our society pushes, that not everything that is tied to "sexual fantasy" is necessarily always healthy. Just like not all foods or the amount of food someone consumes is healthy. I have tried to be clear about this from the beginning.

 

Sex is wonderful and great and healthy. But that alone doesn't mean how humans sometimes choose to act or behave or interact with sex is always healthy. I think that's the mistake.

 

You may certainly disagree with that, if you like, but when people react to your assertions and attitudes that such fantasies are unhealthy, they are not stating that YOU must have them or welcome a mate who has them (not that you could ever really know anyway)

 

What "such fantasies" Zengirl? I have said a million times that I do not think "fantasy" is unhealthy within "context". I have tried to be clear about that context. And when I make these statements, people choose to believe the absolute worst about me and interpret things I said in ways I never thought them as.Hey, I am NOT PERFECT. Maybe I am not explaining my self well enough. I guess you and all the other posters here are just better then me at that. It clearly seems like you think so when you tell me my own thoughts and deny good portions of them at the same time.

 

But even as I try to explain them, you and other posters still discredit me. You focus on something you interpreted a certain way and deny all the other statements I used to try and make myself more clear. This is what leads me to believe a mob has developed in this thread with a certain chunk of posters.

 

This isn't a discussion anymore of people that disagree. This is just about piling on me because you and some other posters don't like the fact that I have made some comments about human sexuality that you disagree with.

 

The big mistake is making the assumption that everyting under the umbrella of "sexuality" is always healthy just because it relates to sex. We would never do that when it came to food. We would never make the assumption that all foods where healthy or good just because it fell under the umbrella of being a piece of food. And this applies to the awesomely complicated issue of sex, sexuality and fantasy.

 

Yes, fantasy can be healthy. However, not all fantasies are always healthy. In context or amount. And I personally think we live ina culture that has more damaging ideals of sex and sexuality and fantasy then healthy ones. And I think it affects relationships. You want to think that I am putting you and other people down because of that? I simpy am not.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

LOL the more you talk the more out there you sound. You mention the acts on porn then talk about how you like rough sex. That is hypocritical. You mention of fantasy creates shame and repression.

 

 

Yes I can enjoy rough sex. But the fact that I don't like what is represented in porn in regards to sex does not make me hypocrtical Joystick. I also like giving and receving oral sex. Am I not allowed to like porn because porn shows these acts but I enjoy those acts in the privacy of my bedroom?

[Des]

 

Why does it have to be such a struggle to have an opinion on this board? It's like if you disagree with the heard mentality, you get beaten down. Everyone tries to dissect DY and as if they can "find" something, some sort of flaw, so as to discredit the different opinion, because another person couldn't possibly feel differently about something.

 

That seems to be the trend, the breaking point that so often derails otherwise honest debates around here.

[xxoo]

I'm shocked that you are shocked XXOO. Because thus far, whenever we have an exchange in dialogue, it's because you find fault with my own views. So when you ask me a question, I often perceive it to be asked, not because you respect or want to really know my differeing views, but it's because you have a desire to say how wrong I am for my own views. Usually you use yourself and your relationship with your husband as an example for all the ways I am wrong. It seems you only ask me quesitons and wait for me to say something so you can disagree with it. Because that's basically how our conversations have gone thus far for the most part. Do you agree or do you disagree? .

 

 

I have no problem with you as a person. I get no pleasure from disagreeing with you.

 

When I read your posts, I see a woman very dissatisfied (disenchanted?) with modern men. But I also see misunderstandings about men.

 

I ask questions to understand your experience and your point of view. I share my own experience to explain how men I know are not like that. Men I know don't use fantasy the way you describe (every woman they don't have, all day long, what they really want, etc).

 

My intention is to promote understanding between men and women. That's all. It really has nothing to do with proving myself right, or you wrong. I speak up when I see men misrepresented, according to my experience of men.

[Mme. Chaucer]

So what? I want a man that uses self control? Self control does not have to equal sexual repression.

 

My opinion is: if a person has a (sexual, in this context) thought and feels that they "should," or that they would be more "perfect" if they somehow banished it, shut it down, or otherwise "controlled" it, - that would be an example of repression. Can you explain why that is not the case, from your perspective?

 

If a person felt like masturbating right now, and they were in private with nothing else important that they were supposed to be doing, would they be more "perfect" if they did not masturbate?

 

Okay, here are some very straightforward questions. What EXACTLY constitutes "self control" in your opinion with regards to fantasy?

 

With regards to masturbation?

 

What exactly constitutes "unnecessary" masturbation?

 

What constitutes "necessary" masturbation?

 

 

I have said a million times in different ways that I never expected anyone to be perfect.

 

Can you agree that this implies that you have a standard of "perfection" with regards to fantasy and masturbation? Please define it.

[joystickd]

Yes I can enjoy rough sex. But the fact that I don't like what is represented in porn in regards to sex does not make me hypocrtical Joystick. I also like giving and receving oral sex. Am I not allowed to like porn because porn shows these acts but I enjoy those acts in the privacy of my bedroom?

 

You talk all that stuff about porn and now you say this. Its hypocritical.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I have no problem with you as a person. I get no pleasure from disagreeing with you.

 

When I read your posts, I see a woman very dissatisfied (disenchanted?) with modern men. But I also see misunderstandings about men.

 

I ask questions to understand your experience and your point of view. I share my own experience to explain how men I know are not like that. Men I know don't use fantasy the way you describe (every woman they don't have, all day long, what they really want, etc).

 

My intention is to promote understanding between men and women. That's all. It really has nothing to do with proving myself right, or you wrong. I speak up when I see men misrepresented, according to my experience of men.

 

Now you want to use my own name agaisnt me to make your case XXOO? That's simply not even right. Yes, I am disenchanted. Yes, I picked that name for a reason (Although I don't like nearly as much as my other name). That however doesn't make me an idiot or less of a person with a worthy opinion then you.

 

I guess your experiences have more value then my own since your experiences are apparently the right ones and my opinion and comments on my experiences are castrated.

 

Look, I spent a great deal of time in my other post toward you going back through our conversations and trying to clear some things up. Not sure if it was successful since you didn't really respond to that post.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You talk all that stuff about porn and now you say this. Its hypocritical.

 

I see. Someone can only enjoy sex if they also enjoy and agree with porn too?

 

That means that no person in this world can disagree with porn and find fault with it if they like engaging in sex. So since porn depicts oral sex, a person can not enjoy oral sex but disagree with porn.

 

WHy don't you pose that question to the forum Joystickd. Ask people if they agree with you and they think it's hypocritical to enjoy sex but not like porn.

[xxoo]

Now you want to use my own name agaisnt me to make your case XXOO? That's simply not even right. Yes, I am disenchanted. Yes, I picked that name for a reason (Although I don't like nearly as much as my other name). That however doesn't make me an idiot or less of a person with a worthy opinion then you. .

 

Did I call you an idiot?

 

I'm constantly shocked by how you interpret my posts. I'm a slow learner, but I'm out.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Did I call you an idiot?

 

I'm constantly shocked by how you interpret my posts. I'm a slow learner, but I'm out.

 

Did I say you called me an idiot?

 

It appeared to me that you were attempting to draw a connection between my name and my comments. The insinuation seemed to be that because I am "disenchanted" that I am "misunderstanding men".

 

You went on to talk about your experience and say they weren't like mine and men aren't "like that", suggesting my expierences and thus opinions are wrong and yours are correct.

 

I am sorry you are "out". I had hoped that my previous post would open up a discussion of understanding between us since I took the time to try and explain things that seemed to be previously misconstrued.I just don't get why you seem to be ignoring that post now.

[counterman]

When I was with my ex and when things were going well, I never have thoughts about another woman. She was the only girl on my mind. When things were going sour, I often wondered what it would be like with other girls. Now, I think I would think of other girls when I'm dating.

[Lonely Ronin]

Did I say you called me an idiot?

That however doesn't make me an idiot or less of a person with a worthy opinion then you.

You implied that she implied you where.

 

It appeared to me that you were attempting to draw a connection between my name and my comments. The insinuation seemed to be that because I am "disenchanted" that I am "misunderstanding men".

 

Perhaps disdain is a better word to use when describing how most of us interpret your views. As i have said before your posts almost always come off as though you are some how better than the rest of us......

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

My opinion is: if a person has a (sexual, in this context) thought and feels that they "should," or that they would be more "perfect" if they somehow banished it, shut it down, or otherwise "controlled" it, - that would be an example of repression. Can you explain why that is not the case, from your perspective?

 

Self control does not equal "repression".

 

Actually, self control can be quite freeing. When I control myself and don't eat bad food, it might be hard to deny myself that cheesecakse in the moment, but the long term rewards are infinately more promising and rewarding. I like myself more when I don't gain a few extra pounds and subcumb to a weakness. I feel stronger because I had the self control. But I am human, so of course, sometimes I do subcumb to the weakness. It's like when I go to the gym too. That requires a certain amount of self control to regularly go. Most nights, I just want to go home. But I go anway. I use self control. And I bet more men enjoy when a woman exercises self control to take care of her body then not. Just as I enjoy a man that exercises self control to take care of his mind in a way that I think is going to be best beneficial to our relationship. It's not really that different. We would never say a man was horrible because he wanted his partner to use physical self control and be commited to working out and keeping in shape. Why do you think that mentally it should be any different?

 

Lets take my comment about the "no one is perfect" in context. I said that within my relationships that the mental, emotional and physical are all very important elements that make my relationships work or not. It is the intertwining of these elements that add or substract from my relationship. Given that, why would I only expect "physical" control (such as not going out and phyiscally sleeping with someone), knowing that both mental (exessive thoughts of other people) and emotional control (reacting to someone just because you feel an emotion which is no different then a sexual response actually) are important things as well? All three of these componants and how they work in my relationship are important. However, we are all only human. And while I think self control is important, I also know that no one is going to ever be perfect. In this context, perfect is applied to the idea that exercising self control makes you stronger. Simply, it does. My boyfriends prefer when i control my emotions and don't open up a **** storm of anger or tears just because I feel like it. They prefer that if I have a problem, I control my more base feelings and deal with the issue with some self control. I don't see anything wrong in that. And I don't see anything wrong in applying that to sexuality either. But no one is ever "perfect". And you certainly don't have to be "perfect" to be a good human being or to be "strong". I use this phrase to illustrate that I know that thoughts of other people will happen and I am not holding someone to an unrealistic ideal that they never, ever have a thought of another person is some personified overly idealized and unrealistic fantasy.

 

If a person felt like masturbating right now, and they were in private with nothing else important that they were supposed to be doing, would they be more "perfect" if they did not masturbate?

 

That question has no context to anything I've been saying so I am not sure the purpose of this question. The simple answer is, no.

 

Okay, here are some very straightforward questions. What EXACTLY constitutes "self control" in your opinion with regards to fantasy?

 

With regards to masturbation?

 

What exactly constitutes "unnecessary" masturbation?

 

What constitutes "necessary" masturbation?

 

See above in this post to see what I think constitues as "self control" in my opinion. I would never be able to answer the following questions because there are way too many variables and both those questions over simplify a very complex issue. As you said before, human sexuality is complex. Human emotions are complex. Those questions are not. And therefore, they can not give the appriopiate context to the topic.

 

But I can supply some interesting information based on a study done. Take it for whatever you feel it's worth.

 

http://www.internetsafety101.org/upload/file/Social%20Costs%20of%20Pornography%20Report.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you agree that this implies that you have a standard of "perfection" with regards to fantasy and masturbation? Please define it.

[zengirl]

Yes, please ignore all the times where I explained what I meant over and over again and infact said that I didn't say "fantasy" was "wrong" all because I said "no one is perfect."

 

How is something not wrong if it's imperfect? I'm not saying the degree to which you are stating it's wrong. A 1550 (I only know the old 1600 SAT scores) is a damn good SAT score, but it's still not perfect. You have to miss some questions to get it. Thus: something is missing, some answers were wrong.

 

If a person is in any way "imperfect" because they have sexual fantasies, it implies wrongness. It just does. It doesn't matter if you keep saying that's what you mean, because then you also keep making it very clear and saying that IS what you mean by referring to it as imperfect.

 

I'm saying I think it is 100% perfectly okay to have sexual fantasies and that it is, in no way, an imperfection -- not at all wrong. You are saying, very clearly, that you find it an imperfection, which is a synonym for a flaw or something wrong!

 

No one IS perfect. Does that make any of us "failures"? No. Maybe you think not being perfect is "failing" but I never thought that.

 

Failing is a degree of wrongness and imperfection. You're missing the point; please read the above.

 

I believe I said that in the quote you used. Me: "A simple commentary on social indulgence! This clearly doesn't apply to anyone person specifically! How could it?)"

 

If I said that a lot of people ate too much and where over weight, no one would have batted an eye. Infact, alot of men would have chimed in and agreed with the fattening of "american women" specifically.

 

I disagree with all those generalizations too (except where statistically proven and even then don't see the point in the fuss of complaining about it), and I've done so in many posts. The fact that there are male posters who fixate on the weight of women of different nationalities doesn't have anything to do with what we're discussing here. Additionally, weight is something that can be documented, and the unhealthiness of true obesity can also be easily documented through medical science. We're not speaking of anything scientific here. If you want to say something biologically proven to be bad for a person is bad for a person, like heroin, or cigarettes, or a steady McDonalds diet. . . well, okay. But that's not really linked to the debate we're having.

 

Sexuality proves to be a challenging and sensitive discussion to always have. It's easier for people to talk about specific porn acts (blow jobs, facials, doggy style..whatever) then it is to admit that perhaps we have a culture over indulgent in sex and fantasy. How is it that we easily recongnize how this happens with food but not with sex? Seriously, if I ate big macs like porn was being consumed by your average person today, I would be obese.

 

First of all: "Over indulgent" is a comparative term, a value judgement. What makes something 'over' indulgent? Generally, negative effects do, but the same degree of sexual thoughts or content to those thoughts are not going to have the same effects on various individuals, so how do you judge it? Then, it becomes a moral or a value judgment, and I think that's where many people disagree with you.

 

Second of all: We can analyze a Big Mac and our body processes and tell that it is not terribly healthy -- we can argue the degree of its unhealthiness, sure, and they may be fine in certain quantities, but this can all be scientifically discussed. Personally, I don't care what people eat, but I do think you can prove -- via hard, biological science -- that certain foods are not good for the body's basic processes. You cannot really do that with ANYTHING psychological, including sexual thoughts.

 

I have my own beliefs Zengirl, as do you. But I have always been clear about how my thoughts apply for "me". Never claimed they had to apply for you.

 

Sure, you have. You've said over and over again we live in an 'overindulgent' culture where sexuality is not to your liking; that impacts and applies to me and everyone else!

 

Well since I went back through my posts and read through them and took the time to do as a you and a few other women have suggested and made a repost of my comments, I have already "owned" them. I stand by everything I said. You have your opinion and thoughts of me and there is nothing I can do to change that.

 

You haven't owned it. You think you can call something an imperfection and yet that you haven't made a value judgement on it.

 

Sex is wonderful and great and healthy. But that alone doesn't mean how humans sometimes choose to act or behave or interact with sex is always healthy. I think that's the mistake.

 

I don't think anyone has said that all sexual behavior humans have is healthy; I think they've said you're not the arbiter of what is healthy or not and that it will vary by individual and circumstances.

 

The big mistake is making the assumption that everyting under the umbrella of "sexuality" is always healthy just because it relates to sex. We would never do that when it came to food. We would never make the assumption that all foods where healthy or good just because it fell under the umbrella of being a piece of food. And this applies to the awesomely complicated issue of sex, sexuality and fantasy.

 

I do not think anyone is making the assumption --- nor have I *ever* seen anyone in this thread make the assumption --- that every part of sexuality is always healthy.

 

My opinion is: if a person has a (sexual, in this context) thought and feels that they "should," or that they would be more "perfect" if they somehow banished it, shut it down, or otherwise "controlled" it, - that would be an example of repression. Can you explain why that is not the case, from your perspective?

 

If a person felt like masturbating right now, and they were in private with nothing else important that they were supposed to be doing, would they be more "perfect" if they did not masturbate?

 

Okay, here are some very straightforward questions. What EXACTLY constitutes "self control" in your opinion with regards to fantasy?

 

With regards to masturbation?

 

What exactly constitutes "unnecessary" masturbation?

 

What constitutes "necessary" masturbation?

 

Can you agree that this implies that you have a standard of "perfection" with regards to fantasy and masturbation? Please define it.

 

All good questions!