MM/OW Sex with BS...Dealbreaker???

[donnamaybe]

The point of my OP was not about lowering expectations at all...the point was that I never closed my eyes to the REALITY in front of me or pretended that those REALITIES didn't exsist...did that keep me from getting hurt?...absolutely not...I was hurt for numerous other reasons...just not that xMM was having sex with his W...so it's really not about "lowering" expectations...it's about accepting (expecting) the reality of the situation...no one should ever lower their expectations for anyone...if you have to do that to "force" a R with anyone...it's not love or a healthy R...IMO...when I decided my expectations weren't being met...when it was discovered that those expectations were based on lies I was told...I walked...as anyone else should...did it hurt any less?...nope...but now I have some new and improved expectations and realities...everything happens for a reason...

Another poster in this thread said "Disappointment is based on unmet expectations. Perhaps infidelity would be less devastating if people had more realistic expectations."

 

Which basically says, "Quit being so picky and let cheaters cheat, then you won't be disappointed."

[Stellar Wench]

post elsewhere...jus sayin"!!!

Excuse me???

 

You seem very threatened by my posts...jus sayin'!

[18Years2Late]

Excuse me???

 

You seem very threatened by my posts...jus sayin'!

 

And you seem to have such great seasoned experience and advice for someone who has only posted 20 times?...almost like you've been around here a while...Just saying...where did u get all that experience?

[18Years2Late]

very good posts and spot on.

 

many, many times we see threads here from ow who are stunned, frustrated, hurt and disappointed in the many lies they caught the mm in and how they mostly start posts with "i don't normally engage in an affair, but we had such chemistry, i decided to go for it anyway" (paraphrasing) and yet, many of these woman end up alone and pissed off.

 

had they not chose to engage in an affair to begin with, they would save themselves a lot of heartache.

 

Oh yes...I'm hurt and pissed off was the understatement of the year...but I'm a better person for it...and alone I am not...so it'd b nice if u wouldn't lump all us OW/OM into one generalization...many of us had over come hurt and anger like never felt before and lead very fulfilling lives despite our flaws and mistakes...

[Stellar Wench]

And you seem to have such great seasoned experience and advice for someone who has only posted 20 times?...almost like you've been around here a while...Just saying...where did u get all that experience?

We don't know each other as far as I can tell. Why are you so fascinated with me? Did you follow my posts on another forum?

 

Continue with the schoolgirl catcalls if you wish. I'll continue to post whenever and wherever I have something to post.

[SoMovinOn]

SMO, like others, I don't understand your point. Statistics suggest that cheating on taxes is substantially more common than cheating on a spouse. Do you think the IRS should just accept this reality and basically stop trying to enforce tax laws?

 

Yes, the reality is that some people do lots of harmful things, to themselves and to others. However, most of us look at that reality and decide we want to treat ourselves and others better than that.

 

Yes... you hope for the best. ... and all I suggested was the other half of that saying - but prepare for the worst.

 

Some people are *so* extremely hurt and disappointed, because, in their mind, anything bad happening was impossible. They found the ultimate Disney fairy tale love. When face with reality ... that life isn't always so perfect ... they are *devastated* to an extreme.

 

It was never my suggestion that anyone lower their standards or live with an *expectation* of infidelity, but rather, knowing that statistics, one not live in the delusional state of believing it impossible.

 

People hurting because of the selfish/dishonest behavior of others is part of caring and being connected to others. Sure, you can close yourself off from others and avoid that kind of pain, but then you also miss out on the joys that come with love, intimacy and connection to others.

 

Thus the saying "You always hurt the one you love" ... it doesn't mean what it seems to say (that you WILL hurt someone because you love them), but rather, that you can only be hurt by someone you care about.

 

 

Perhaps you choose that type of bargain, but you are unlikely to convince others that it is a good way to live.

 

I would never attempt to convince anyone of such a foolish idea, nor would I choose it. I can assure you, I've never lived my life based on anyone else's misinterpretation.

[SoMovinOn]

The lowered expectations aspect folks are addressing is in reference to something SMO said about people needing to lower their expectations...not the original post (as forum conversations go...after a few pages the convo transforms to something quite different from what was originally brought up lol)

 

Actually, much like the OP, I was talking about accepting reality. It had nothing to do with lowering expectations ... unless those who interpreted it that way feel reality is beneath their normal expectations.

[SoMovinOn]

Another poster in this thread said "Disappointment is based on unmet expectations. Perhaps infidelity would be less devastating if people had more realistic expectations."

 

Which basically says, "Quit being so picky and let cheaters cheat, then you won't be disappointed."

 

Interesting interpretation, but... entirely wrong.

[donnamaybe]

Interesting interpretation, but... entirely wrong.

 

Expect your partner to cheat. Well, I guess when in a R with a cheater, one SHOULD expect it.

[woinlove]

Yes... you hope for the best. ... and all I suggested was the other half of that saying - but prepare for the worst.

 

Some people are *so* extremely hurt and disappointed, because, in their mind, anything bad happening was impossible. They found the ultimate Disney fairy tale love. When face with reality ... that life isn't always so perfect ... they are *devastated* to an extreme.

 

It was never my suggestion that anyone lower their standards or live with an *expectation* of infidelity, but rather, knowing that statistics, one not live in the delusional state of believing it impossible.

 

 

 

Thus the saying "You always hurt the one you love" ... it doesn't mean what it seems to say (that you WILL hurt someone because you love them), but rather, that you can only be hurt by someone you care about.

 

 

 

 

I would never attempt to convince anyone of such a foolish idea, nor would I choose it. I can assure you, I've never lived my life based on anyone else's misinterpretation.

 

I'm not sure anyone can really prepare themselves not to be devastated by such intimate betrayal unless they withhold trust. I suppose a marriage of convenience (finances, lifestyle, whatever) might be fine with minimal trust, but, to me, a successful, loving marriage requires trust. It is not a matter of reality versus fantasy, so much as choosing to give your heart to another and to trust them in a way that allows you to be fully intimate and open with them. Once you do that, a deep betrayal is going to be devastating. I don't see a way around that.

 

Some people are incapable of deep intimacy and/or love and/or trust. For those who are capable and open themselves to it, they also open themselves to possible devastation. In many cases, their trust is not misplaced and they are rewarded with an amazing, long connection which enriches their life more than anything else. In some cases, their trust is temporarily betrayed, they suffer devastation for a while, recover and either rebuild an amazing connection or move on without the WS. Even if it takes them 5 years, this may be shorter than their 15, 20 or even 30 year M.

 

Bottom line, while it is awful for people to experience devastation, it also shows they are connected and open to others and provided they do heal, that same openness and connection will bring richness to their lives. I don't see the problem AT ALL lying with the people who are betrayed. To me, the problem lies with the people who are doing the betraying. I'd rather focus on what they could learn and do differently. That seems to be one place you and I differ.

[MissBee]

Actually, much like the OP, I was talking about accepting reality. It had nothing to do with lowering expectations ... unless those who interpreted it that way feel reality is beneath their normal expectations.

 

In this case, what do you mean by reality? What is the reality that should be expected, so as not to be disappointed?

 

Nevermind....I think you sort of answered in another post....

 

It's interesting that the idea of perfection is brought up....I wonder how many people really expect perfection? And how many use imperfection as a cover-all blanket to excuse all wrongs...."I'm only human", "No one's perfect". Usually those choosing not to at least exert the best of human capabilities draw for such rhetoric.

 

Anyway, I think many cheaters are those who are the ones unable to deal with reality...instead of work on the day to day reality of marriage...they run for the new romance and euphoria that is present in a new relationship. Most affairs don't mature to the point of being bored...so they can replay the euphoria and romance and Disney fairytale over and over and over again. While their real life still exists...the one which is "not so simplistic" where they have kids, bills, in-laws, a dog etc.

 

I think perfection has nothing to do with not expecting your spouse to have an affair...I see no where in which perfection factors...only perfect people don't have affairs? I mean...it makes no sense. No one is perfect, we all understand that...yet some show more laudable qualities and actually make a concerted effort. My aunt and uncle have a beautiful marriage steeped in reality and imperfection...it is how they handle the imperfections that make them a great couple, not because they are perfect.

 

I think most people, well me anyway, realize that ANYTHING is possible....yet somehow realizing my spouse COULD cheat, does not and won't erase the hurt and disappointment if they do. And the only way I can erase that is if somewhere in my mind I accept that they will cheat and accept that it is okay. Otherwise, no amount of realization of a possibility makes a betrayal any less hurtful.

Edited February 14, 2012 by MissBee

[Stellar Wench]

Actually, much like the OP, I was talking about accepting reality. It had nothing to do with lowering expectations ... unless those who interpreted it that way feel reality is beneath their normal expectations.

The people that feel reality is beneath their normal expectations usually work to change the situation, or they leave the situation for something that better matches their expectations; they don't change their expectations to match something less than what they deserve.

 

Why do you accept less? Do you think you deserve to be cheated on? If so, why?

[MissBee]

I'm not sure anyone can really prepare themselves not to be devastated by such intimate betrayal unless they withhold trust. I suppose a marriage of convenience (finances, lifestyle, whatever) might be fine with minimal trust, but, to me, a successful, loving marriage requires trust. It is not a matter of reality versus fantasy, so much as choosing to give your heart to another and to trust them in a way that allows you to be fully intimate and open with them. Once you do that, a deep betrayal is going to be devastating. I don't see a way around that.

 

Some people are incapable of deep intimacy and/or love and/or trust. For those who are capable and open themselves to it, they also open themselves to possible devastation. In many cases, their trust is not misplaced and they are rewarded with an amazing, long connection which enriches their life more than anything else. In some cases, their trust is temporarily betrayed, they suffer devastation for a while, recover and either rebuild an amazing connection or move on without the WS. Even if it takes them 5 years, this may be shorter than their 15, 20 or even 30 year M.

 

Bottom line, while it is awful for people to experience devastation, it also shows they are connected and open to others and provided they do heal, that same openness and connection will bring richness to their lives. I don't see the problem AT ALL lying with the people who are betrayed. To me, the problem lies with the people who are doing the betraying. I'd rather focus on what they could learn and do differently. That seems to be one place you and I differ.

 

I agree as well.

 

It seems to be that the betrayed is still at fault in some sense and that they are the ones to blame for their own hurt based on their unrealistic expectations of truth, honesty and fidelity. While the betrayed....? Well what is their role? They are the realistic ones? They are the ones on the right side of reality.....

 

I'm not sure if that is what is being implied. But my stance is that, no one is perfect, yet human beings have the capability to exhibit the more laudable human traits...and that should be what we strive for. I will always strive to be on that more laudable side. Once in a while I may fall...but falling while on your way up is quite different from "well if everyone would just stop striving and sit here...then you wouldn't fall and be hurt!"

 

But this is a common outlook...in other areas of life...the idea that if you never try for something you think is amazing or others call impossible, or things you really care about, you'll never be disappointed. Many people live like that. They underachieve because they are scared of failure and as long as they do less than what they are capable of, they are guaranteed to win. Whereas if they try for what they really want and if they don't attain it...or that fear that they won't, prevents them from ever stepping outside of their box. It's not a very fulfilling way to live. Sure you may avoid some disappointment, but you also never open up yourself and stretch yourself and see what you're truly made of!

Edited February 14, 2012 by MissBee

[SoMovinOn]

Let's see if I can make this amazingly simple and easy...

 

If you don't understand - don't do it.

 

If you understand but don't agree - don't do it.

 

If you understand but don't think it will work for you - don't do it.

 

If you think something that is not one thing can only possibly be

 

some ridiculously extreme opposite - don't do it.

 

 

"Live each day as if it were your last" ... is a commonly repeated sentiment based on the same principal of accepting reality. It doesn't mean you should barricade yourself in a bomb shelter out of some extreme fear that doing anything will cause you to die. It doesn't mean you should spend every moment of your life believing you will die in the next moment. It just means you should live each day to the fullest, having accepted the reality that you have no assurance of tomorrow.

 

The concept of accepting the reality that 50% of all married people are involved in infidelity at some point in their marriage is no different. I *doesn't* mean you need to spend every moment certain you or your spouse will cheat. It certainly has absolutely *nothing* to do with lowering your expectaions.

 

What it does mean is you shouldn't live in some fairy tale bliss of ignorance thinking your relationship is immune to infidelity. It means you should take heed of all the stories you read from BS's or WS's on this site, and others, who say they were certain they had a perfect M, they were certain their spouse, or they, would never, ever be involved in an A. They were certain they had a perfect love which would never die ... and in an instant, a 2 ton nuclear bomb was dropped on their head and their entire world was changed.

 

Certainly, if an A is likely to happen, it can only be *helped* by a BS who is certain it won't. Such certainty can lead to you missing signs, or ignoring them when you see them ... because, you're just so damn sure it would never, ever happen to you.

 

If you can understand that, without feeling you need to be crippled by it, need to have it at the front of your mind 24/7, or, for some reason, to lower your standards ... do it.

 

If not ... don't.

[LifesontheUp]

When I got married there were occasions when we talked about infidelity. I was never someone who thought it would never happen to them, in fact I said if it did I would throw him out.

 

Just because I was aware that it could happen, doesn't mean it was any less devasting when it did.

 

Its like when my father was dying of cancer, oh yes we knew he was dying but when it happened, it didn't hurt us any less.

[SoMovinOn]

Just because I was aware that it could happen, doesn't mean it was any less devastating when it did.

 

Its like when my father was dying of cancer, oh yes we knew he was dying but when it happened, it didn't hurt us any less.

 

How do you know neither was less devastating than it may have been under some other circumstance? I understand both would have been devastating ... nothing could possibly completely mitigate something like that. ... but, that doesn't mean it may not have been more so had you been completely unaware or unprepared.

 

That's all. Being prepared or knowledgeable isn't a magic pill ... it just allows us to handle things as well as possible in a given circumstance.

[MissBee]

When I got married there were occasions when we talked about infidelity. I was never someone who thought it would never happen to them, in fact I said if it did I would throw him out.

 

Just because I was aware that it could happen, doesn't mean it was any less devasting when it did.

 

Its like when my father was dying of cancer, oh yes we knew he was dying but when it happened, it didn't hurt us any less.

 

 

Precisely....

 

I am not sure what the sentiment of "it could never happen to me" has to do with anything, as I saw no one in this thread mention that or act like that...so to me, I feel the advice to realize it could happen to you is extraneous to the conversation.

 

I am not sure what accepting the reality that some people cheat has to do with anything actually. Then what? After you accept it then what? You won't be disappointed if betrayed is what is implied...the implied idea is that the ONLY people who hurt from betrayal are those who didn't accept or expect it

 

So the solution has to be that you should expect it, hence you won't be disappointed, if you realize it could happen to you, you won't be disappointed. But as evidenced with many other hurtful things in life, that understanding that it could happen does not somehow lessen the hurt. Me being on the look out for signs of possible cheating and finding them to be positive does not lessen my hurt. The only thing that will lessen the hurt...MAYBE...is to not expect fidelity any at all.

[MissBee]

How do you know neither was less devastating than it may have been under some other circumstance? I understand both would have been devastating ... nothing could possibly completely mitigate something like that. ... but, that doesn't mean it may not have been more so had you been completely unaware or unprepared.

 

That's all. Being prepared or knowledgeable isn't a magic pill ... it just allows us to handle things as well as possible in a given circumstance.

 

SMO...you speak as if people are disagreeing with you.

 

But really, you just said "Being prepared or knowledgeable isn't a magic pill ... it just allows us to handle things as well as possible in a given circumstance" ...in order to prepare for a death, you accept and know for a fact it WILL happen. You accept it will happen and you may start making funeral plans and start saying goodbyes, you accept it as a definite thing and make peace with it. Yet when applied to an affair...and people cite that it means you accept your partner will cheat or you lower your expectations of fidelity...you act like we don't get it.

 

I am trying to really get it....if preparing so it is less devastating is what you mean how does that apply in terms of infidelity and how do you prepare WITHOUT having the mindset that your partner will probably cheat, so don't be surprised and don't expect too much fidelity? And if not expecting too much fidelity is part of it...how is it different from lowering your expectations? Also, you said living life like it is your last as tomorrow is not promised....that also requires an acceptance that tomorrow you may die. In relation to a relationship what does that mean? Live your relationship like it is honest and loving, as tomorrow they may cheat? I am not trying to be facetious, I'm really trying to get the comparison and analogy. I do think most of us here are on this forum as we have experienced infidelity, whether it was as an OW, as a WS or BS...or whether we were kids of parents who cheated...so I think most of us are pretty aware, like you are of the statistics and also are aware from experience that infidelity happens....so I don't get the admonishment of not acting like it can't happen...since most don't act like that here as they have already or are currently going through it.

 

I think your re-explanation of yourself is no different from what you already said...and still means what everyone read it as meaning.

Edited February 15, 2012 by MissBee

[woinlove]

SMO, your last post didn't clarify anything about exactly what kind of advice you are trying to give to others and why. But I think I understand that to you cheating is a lesser deal than to many.

 

You have described living in some kind of quasi or not really married state with your wife, while having an affair with a woman in perhaps an even worse marriage who doesn't seem in any hurry to leave it. So, I can see you live your own life as if your expectations for relationships are not so high and I suspect you apply the advice you are giving to yourself. Is it that you think others would benefit from adopting your own approach to marriage and relationships?

 

Maybe if MW ever left her H, married you, and then cheated on you, it is possible you would not be that surprised or hurt. Is that what you are getting at?

[SoMovinOn]

I am trying to really get it....if preparing so it is less devastating is what you mean how does that apply in terms of infidelity and how do you prepare WITHOUT having the mindset that your partner will probably cheat, so don't be surprised and don't expect too much fidelity?

 

Being in a committed R and not expecting fidelity doesn't make sense. Maybe it's simply that I am unable to communicate a mindset of awareness and maybe preparedness.

 

When you ride a motorcycle, you need to accept it is dangerous and expect every other driver left their house with the intent of killing you. Taken to an extreme, such thoughts would paralyze you and keep you from ever getting on a bike, or, you'd be scared to death the whole time. ... and for some people, that's exactly what happens. For those who choose to ride though, it's a matter of developing a mindset and learning skills which help to mitigate the risks and, most importantly, help you to see risks before or as they develop and respond accordingly and (this is the most important part) respond *without thinking about it*.

 

I don't know how to explain this applying to infidelity other than to say what I have already said - that you *don't* have the belief it cannot ever happen to you. It doesn't mean you believe your spouse *will* cheat on you, or that you will cheat. I doesn't mean it won't be devastating if it happens. It does mean that if there is something to see, perhaps you will see it sooner, rather than dismissing it - because it could never happen in your R. I does mean you may react to it in a way which will lessen the devastation.

 

One need only look here on LS to find countless stories of BS's who believed it could never, ever happen to them. One need only look here on LS to find countless stories of WS or OW/OM who never believed they'd be involved in an A.

 

Perhaps, if they only believed it possible, it might not happen at all now and then. ... or if it did, it would come as a complete surprise.

 

That's all. I don't see it as being that complicated a concept, but, perhaps that is due to me having to adopt similar mindsets (awareness and preparedness) in other, non-related situations.

[donnamaybe]

Maybe if MW ever left her H, married you, and then cheated on you, it is possible you would not be that surprised or hurt. Is that what you are getting at?

I'm curious about that as well.

[SoMovinOn]

But I think I understand that to you cheating is a lesser deal than to many.

 

Odd that you don't understand what I do say, but you *do* understand something I have never said. I think A's are terrible, wrong, devastating... always have, and I've always said that here.

 

 

Maybe if MW ever left her H, married you, and then cheated on you, it is possible you would not be that surprised or hurt. Is that what you are getting at?

 

Or... what if my STBXW had multiple A's? She did. Was I surprised? No. Was I hurt? Yes. Being aware and prepared doesn't make a problem not a problem, it just helps you to deal with the problem better.

 

One of the issues a couple of other infidelity sites had with how I dealt with my W's A's was they were not pleased with how quickly I put it all behind me. I was supposed to be blindsided, clueless, holding onto as much hurt, pain and anger as I could possibly muster.

 

No thanks. I have too much life ahead of me to stay stuck in some moment in the past.

[whichwayisup]

Being in a committed R and not expecting fidelity doesn't make sense. Maybe it's simply that I am unable to communicate a mindset of awareness and maybe preparedness.

 

Maybe because of your own experience, you expect it in future relationships.

 

I don't think anybody goes into a marriage or a long term relationship thinking "I expect at some point in time i'll get cheated on or cheat." I think it's quite unhealthy to project into the future and worry about something that may or may not happen, it ruins the "now".

 

I don't wrap myself in bubble wrap head to toe worrying about what life will throw at me when I step outside, it's best to take things as they come - IF they come, then deal with it. But to always be prepared for the worse case senario is not good. Takes away from living life.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[donnamaybe]

One of the issues a couple of other infidelity sites had with how I dealt with my W's A's was they were not pleased with how quickly I put it all behind me. I was supposed to be blindsided, clueless, holding onto as much hurt, pain and anger as I could possibly muster.

I seriously doubt anyone WANTED you to "hold onto as much hurt, pain, and anger as you could possibly muster." I think it just harks back to what another poster said a bit ago about how someone who expects to be cheated on, therefore putting a protective wall up, is that they won't be truly connected to that person. Maybe without that connection your R didn't feel authentic to the W, and that's why she made the poor decision to cheat. Maybe she was looking for that connection, though that was a poor way to go about it.

[frozensprouts]

Being in a committed R and not expecting fidelity doesn't make sense. Maybe it's simply that I am unable to communicate a mindset of awareness and maybe preparedness.

 

When you ride a motorcycle, you need to accept it is dangerous and expect every other driver left their house with the intent of killing you. Taken to an extreme, such thoughts would paralyze you and keep you from ever getting on a bike, or, you'd be scared to death the whole time. ... and for some people, that's exactly what happens. For those who choose to ride though, it's a matter of developing a mindset and learning skills which help to mitigate the risks and, most importantly, help you to see risks before or as they develop and respond accordingly and (this is the most important part) respond *without thinking about it*.

 

I don't know how to explain this applying to infidelity other than to say what I have already said - that you *don't* have the belief it cannot ever happen to you. It doesn't mean you believe your spouse *will* cheat on you, or that you will cheat. I doesn't mean it won't be devastating if it happens. It does mean that if there is something to see, perhaps you will see it sooner, rather than dismissing it - because it could never happen in your R. I does mean you may react to it in a way which will lessen the devastation.

 

One need only look here on LS to find countless stories of BS's who believed it could never, ever happen to them. One need only look here on LS to find countless stories of WS or OW/OM who never believed they'd be involved in an A.

 

Perhaps, if they only believed it possible, it might not happen at all now and then. ... or if it did, it would come as a complete surprise.

 

That's all. I don't see it as being that complicated a concept, but, perhaps that is due to me having to adopt similar mindsets (awareness and preparedness) in other, non-related situations.

 

i see what you mean...to a point.

 

Keeping with your analogy of driving, one can practice "defensive driving" so that one learns to anticipate what could be ahead so as to prevent an accident. One can do everything in their power to prevent and accident, but there may still be the drunk guy who slams into you at 150km/hr. ( I am actually in driving school now- finally getting around to getting my license at age 40)...and , in a way, your analogy holds some truth.

 

The other students are so young and really seem to have no idea of the dangers they could face on the road. They may well learn everything there is to know about driving defensively and how to avoid an accident, but until they get on the road, have a lot more experience and are more mature, they may well not know how to apply it.

 

Even if they do know how to apply it, how will it help them in the aftermath of an accident where above mentioned drunk hits them? I don't know if any driving school or even driving experience can teach you that...you won't know how you'll react until it happens. Will you freeze up, will you go into hysterics, will you be calm and collected, will you try and help the other driver who's also inured or will you be to badly hurt to do very much of anything other than be swept along by the circumstances?

 

All are possible.

 

The same is true with infidelity. Many start out their relationships ( no matter how old they may be) young and hopeful and full of promise. They may very well have learned a lot about how to keep a relationship going, or they may have learned nothing. They may do every thing possible to keep their relationship "safe", but they have no control over what others will do. They go along, thinking they are doing everything right, they may feel they are prepared and ready should anything bad happen, then WHAM! they get hit by the proverbial drunk going 150km/hr ( infidelity). How do they know how they will react until it happens? Maybe they will panic, maybe they will freeze up and not be able to do anything, maybe they will be calm and collected, maybe they will will be able to work with their spouse through it, maybe they become hysterical, or maybe ( and this happens so often) they'll be too hurt to do very much of anything.

 

How can one adequately "prepare" for that... for a situation they have never been in before? Even if they know it "could" happen, how can one prepare so that it won't hurt them so much if it does happen?