MM sleeping "in the basement"

[Cabin]

I was involved in a conversation with a colleague the other day about her former husband, who, some 20 years ago, lived in the basement for six months while separating from her and preparing for life with his AP.

 

My colleague shared what a tough time that was, with two children living at home, but how now 20 years later, she's remarried, and he's been married to his former-AP since that time.

 

As I listened to the conversation, I had two thoughts:

1) How recently I've seen such smug comments posted on here about MM sleeping "in the basement" is basically a lie told to string the OW along

2) How I've read over and over on here that NO MM leave and marry their OW.

 

I am starting to wonder if the "case by case" stuff we see on LS isn't really represent at all about what goes on IRL because, as I've stated before, I personally know now over 12 couples who got together in an A and went on to be M and stay M.

 

Anyway, when I read some of the "know it all" posts on here from people who think all As are the same, all MM are the same, all OW are the same, it just kind of urks me! I'm not defending As, but I will argue that they aren't all cut from the same cloth.

 

My AP has been sleeping out of the bedroom for quite some time and has been inactive sexually with his W for close to a year. How many would scoff at my naivete for "actually" believing that?

 

Cabin

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm pretty sure that most extramarital affairs share features, among them, dishonesty (which is a big thing that separates an affair from an open marriage). It doesn't make affairs "all alike," but it's a big commonality - one that usually gets a negative emotional reaction out of many people.

 

Your situation may be different, but we all (even you, I'm sure) know that lots of people who are in affairs ARE having sex with their spouse and lying about it. Not all, but plenty.

 

It's easy and natural for many of us to be concerned about dishonesty if we know about certain dishonesty. I mean, I am not capable of really believing that a person could lie a lot to others close to him/ her, but never to me. I used to be able to believe that way, but no longer. From experience.

 

I don't think anyone here is going to deny that they know of marriages that started with affairs. By a certain time in life, we've certainly seen that.

[MissBee]

I have never seen people saying MM NEVER leave. I've seen and I would say, most of the stories here suggest that most (not all, but a larger number) don't leave. My dad is a MM who never left...other people have philandering parents who didn't leave either. Do some leave? Yes...do most? I doubt.

 

I think that is what it boils down to. No one can know with 100% certainty what will happen for you or anyone else here. We may be right or wrong and we can only go off of what we see in your story and our own insight, experience, common knowledge. But my thing is: if you KNOW your situation, why does it matter what smug people think? Why does it matter if no one else thinks he's leaving...so long as you do...then that's what matters. And more so, so long as he eventually does for real...that's the point.

 

 

You spoke about ONE co-worker's experience and from that ONE experience have come to conclude that the case by case of MM not leaving on LS is not representative of real life. That doesn't make sense to your own premise. Your coworker is one case....just like, or even worse, compared to several LS cases. If case by case here isn't representative how is your ONE coworker any more representative? Just because her outcome is more akin to what you would like, it's more reliable? It doesn't work that way. It's like in the Breaks and Breaking Up forum...NO ONE wants to believe their relationship is over for real and all come looking to see how their situation is different. Usually it isn't and a lot of people try to give some example of some couple who broke up and reunited and married...and the point is: no one is saying that that NEVER happens. But most people who break up, break up and move on...most do not reunite and marry. Yet when you point it out, people get upset and think you're bitter or hating. I was one of them too who just felt like no one understood...until I came to realize that they were speaking from what generally happens...and mine was no different. I also had to know it on some level, or else I wouldn't be there arguing with them about how different mine was. I would have been confident and would not need to defend anything. I wasn't though. I was grasping at straws and was angry that people were taking them away from me. We're humans, it happens.

 

A large number of As include MP looking for an A...not for a new marriage or to leave and find a new partner. Many of us have had that experience. It is a reality. I do understand wanting a certain outcome...but I don't think that one should somehow reach for the obscure or deny the average to make one feel better. I think when you start to do that, it belies your feelings of insecurity in your situation frankly. As if you feel and KNOW your man will be with you...why does it matter what we think? When you have him all to yourself, then you can come back and brag and "show us". But until then, it does seem weird that you care so much about if we think he will or won't leave and it seems odd to me when an OW needs to normalize her outcome. If I were still in an A...maybe I'd be in denial...but I want to believe that I'd be able to realize lots of MM don't leave but MINE will. I hardly see any OW do that, speak for HER man....but many seem to dig up other people's rare experiences and try to superimpose it on their situation or go as far as to say everyone else's story on LS is fiction or skewed. It seems very weird to me that one needs to go that far.

 

I see no reason to generalize and speak of all these other people's men who did leave. They aren't mine....and it's almost like needing more people "on your team" to convince yourself and everyone else that "Seee". Truth is truth and what will be will be...whether or not we believe he will or won't, what will happen will happen and each person has to be confident in their own choice. When one is confident or insecure...both show up in telling ways. I do wish you luck and I don't sit around hoping your situation doesn't work out....I just find it odd that it matters to you if we think it will or won't. If it works out for you Cabin, it does NOT negate all the many many many it doesn't work out for. If you're confident, then that's what matters. I personally have never said your MM won't leave and I don't know if he will or won't (although he seems to be making steps from what I vaguely remember unlike some who insist he is leaving when he has done nada), but if he does or doesn't, it doesn't change what generally happens and I wish you happiness and luck whatever occurs.

Edited February 9, 2012 by MissBee

[Emme]

I know many here choose to warn others so they won’t experience the pain that many of us have had. That’s just what’s posted by most members. The question really is what your AP could be doing rather than being out of the bedroom if the marriage is at an end. He could be with you if that is the case. I understand at times it’s for the sake of children and keeping the family intact. But in the end it all boils down to actions. If you don’t have a time frame set as to when you will be with this man you love and who loves you we want you to be prepared for the worst. Most here prepare OW/OM for what might be ahead. That’s all. It’s not to say all Affairs end.

[bentnotbroken]

For the 12 personal you know, I know at least 10 who put the cheating partner out and they still didn't go to the AP. And at least 20 who are still together(seemingly) restored and loving each other. I don't have friends who lives that include affairs, you do. Our range of reference is limited to who we are, who we hang around with and what we believe. Nothing new here.

[robf1971]

. How many would scoff at my naivete for "actually" believing that?

 

Cabin

 

Believe what you want but unless you have a Big Brother style CCTV camera setup in their marital home you can't be 100% sure that it's true.

[woinlove]

I got the living separately in the house and no sex line too. It wasn't true. At the time, I hadn't expected him not to be having sex with his W, he offered that misinformation without being asked. So I was surprised to learn he had lied when there was no reason he had to lie. It was a lesson to me that some people are capable of lying to an extent that many of us are not and if you are not like that, it can be difficult to comprehend. I have never cheated and can't imagine ever lying to my H like that, but some people are capable of quite sustained deception with those closest to them. When xMM finally did divorce and wanted to be with me, I had learned enough to know that I could not tie my life to someone capable of that level of deception.

 

I agree with others that when you know someone is that deceitful, you can't really be sure they are not deceiving you too.

[skywriter]

Cabin,

 

I know of a married couple that were both married to other people when they met, fell in love, and eventually divorced their spouses too. They've gone on to have two children together and have been married 16 yrs.

 

I still believe in my heart that the married person needs to leave first, before jumping into another relationship. This is just my opinion. I wouldn't trust my ex-AP,any further than I could throw him. I know I was just as guilty as he was too.

 

I was so wrong for my part, and maybe every A is somewhat different, but then again, they all seem to ring the same as well. Trust is a huge component for me. I don't believe I would trust a man that knew his marriage was done anyway and wouldn't just tell his soon to be spouse he had moved on to another lover.

 

I know my lack of trust would sabotage the relationship. I'm just relieved that it has ended and I don't have to deal with those trust issues.

[robf1971]

I agree with others that when you know someone is that deceitful, you can't really be sure they are not deceiving you too.

 

No one in their right mind would invest their money with a convicted fraudster. Why do people think it's ok to invest their love with a proven cheater.

[PhoenixRise]

My husband told his OW he was sleeping on an air mattress in another room. It was a lie.....or maybe it was a prophetic vision of what his future would look like after our dday.

[beenburned]

I always wondered how people know who the cheaters are.

 

Do they openly talk about it with friends? Or does their reputation, as a cheater, precede them?

 

It also baffles me to read how many OW are in affairs with MM that brag about a history of serial cheating. And they still want a future with this man.

[MissBee]

No one in their right mind would invest their money with a convicted fraudster. Why do people think it's ok to invest their love with a proven cheater.

 

Isn't that something?

 

I actually read a similar analogy once discussing how smart women before they make investments they do all the research and weigh it etc but when it comes on to love, those same smart women often invest in faulty prospects....prospects that weren't secretly, but obviously faulty (a MP currently cheating is an example of a prospect that is already showing you a fault). It's very interesting.

 

It again IMO has nothing to do with can someone change or is every MP never leaving....even if they leave after the fact...how do you erase their KNOWN cheating? Or what gives the confidence that this won't be a faulty investment? My warning would be: be sure that you're not just assuming that the fault is of the BS or prior marriage but for some, undefined reason, besides "your love", they will be different with you if and when you start having issues. Be a smart love investor and consider...okay, HOW and WHY...not based on what they say, but the whole reality, will things be different? How can I be sure it is not just their way of dealing with things? How can we move into a regular relationship and consciously address how things started? I think I respect someone who at least does that....but those who seem to simply have this fantasy that none of that behavior matters at all....their great love covers it all....then I am not surprised when they have a rude awakening, as it is just like your example: if you invest in a known fraudster lol, then IF that person should deceive you too....on what grounds can you claim surprise?

Edited February 9, 2012 by MissBee

[frozensprouts]

Isn't that something?

 

I actually read a similar analogy once discussing how smart women before they make investments they do all the research and weigh it etc but when it comes on to love, those same smart women often invest in faulty prospects....prospects that weren't secretly, but obviously faulty (a MP currently cheating is an example of a prospect that is already showing you a fault). It's very interesting.

 

It again IMO has nothing to do with can someone change or is every MP never leaving....even if they leave after the fact...how do you erase their KNOWN cheating? Or what gives the confidence that this won't be a faulty investment? My warning would be: be sure that you're not just assuming that the fault is of the BS or prior marriage but for some, undefined reason, besides "your love", they will be different with you if and when you start having issues. Be a smart love investor and consider...okay, HOW and WHY...not based on what they say, but the whole reality, will things be different? How can I be sure it is not just their way of dealing with things? How can we move into a regular relationship and consciously address how things started? I think I respect someone who at least does that....but those who seem to simply have this fantasy that none of that behavior matters at all....their great love covers it all....then I am not surprised when they have a rude awakening, as it is just like your example: if you invest in a known fraudster lol, then IF that person should deceive you too....on what grounds can you claim surprise?

 

 

this makes a lot of sense...

 

you can often form an idea of how a person will act if you use their past behavior as a starting point. Often, it will give you a good indication about their personality, problem solving methods, ability to be honest with themselves and others, etc.

 

if someone has shown that they will willingly use dishonesty, will be disloyal , will sneak and go behind someone's back if and when it suits their goals, will hurt someone else for their own self gratification,what does this tell you about them? That they consider those methods to be part of their "problem solving toolbox" ( ugh, I can't believe I just used that term but somehow it fits).

 

this is not to say that someone like that can't change, but it takes a lot of work, self introspection, and probably even help from a counselor, etc. to break these patterns and habits- most likely, love is not enough.

[NoIDidn't]

Cabin,

 

I don't know why it seems that ALL of your posts seek some sort of validation. If your affair is going differently, great. Just know that you are but ONE of the many affairs going on and there is bound to be a few that don't fit the usual pattern.

 

My girlfriend and her ex-husband, both still good friends of mine, had that RARE situation where he left the marital bed and refused to sleep with her. He was cruel to her and I told him so. I also helped her see that his actions were not a reflection of her. He moved out when he realized he wouldn't want the same treatment for himself.

 

I fail to see why proof and knowledge of this cruelty to one's spouse is proof of love to you. Its a sad day when people validate and confirm their relationships based on how poorly their partner treats others in relation to how they are treated by them. Truthfully, if a woman wants such a man that badly, I say let her have them.

[KathyM]

The fact of the matter is that you really don't know if the husband is sleeping with his wife, where in the house he sleeps, how often or in what way he is having sex with his wife, or anything about his life really, except for what he tells you, and since he is a proven liar and cheater, nothing he says can be trusted to be the truth. Maybe in some cases the husband really is estranged from his wife and not sleeping with her, but you really have no way of knowing or verifying that. I'm sure there are cases where the MM left eventually and ended up with the AP, but that's the exception to the rule. Most MM make a woman believe they want more than just sex with her in order to get her to put out, but in reality, they're only looking for some action on the side, and have no intention of leaving their marriage, or they don't know what they want and are using both women while they are unable to make any decision one way or the other.

[whichwayisup]

Obviously some MM do leave, nobody here has said it NEVER happens. It's rare and those who have ended up with their MM is because their MM truly DID intend to divorce! They had a plan and it was put into actions. Too many MM will just say 'whatever' and do nothing. Truth of that is, they have no intention of ever divorcing, they're happy enough staying married and enjoying someone on the side. Not malciously, but selfishly.

 

Only your MM and his wife know 'the real truth' of what goes on behind closed doors, but since you believe him, that there's no intimacy that's fine - As long as he isn't stringing you along, giving you just enough hope for a future when infact he is just happy with having an affair. Time will tell.

[Snowflower]

Okay Cabin, I'll take the bait from the betrayed side of things...

 

My H was one of those rare spouses where he did actually quit sleeping with me in our bed (and I do mean every connotation of that word) and started sleeping downstairs in the family room. This was during the intense part of his affair.

 

Funny enough, I never asked him after we reconciled what he told his OW about our sleeping arrangements. I didn't care.

 

So yes, what the MM in your sitch is saying could be the truth. I lived it...for about 6 weeks.

 

However, it didn't matter in the end...we ultimately decided to reconcile. That might be something else for you to keep in mind...just because a MM isn't sleeping with his BW (literally and figuratively) during the affair doesn't mean that he won't decide for some reason to sleep with her again at some point in the future.

 

Until the MM actually moves out and files for divorce, anything can happen in that marriage.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Okay Cabin, I'll take the bait from the betrayed side of things...

 

 

There is a decidedly bait-like quality ...

[MissBee]

Cabin,

 

I don't know why it seems that ALL of your posts seek some sort of validation. If your affair is going differently, great. Just know that you are but ONE of the many affairs going on and there is bound to be a few that don't fit the usual pattern.

 

My girlfriend and her ex-husband, both still good friends of mine, had that RARE situation where he left the marital bed and refused to sleep with her. He was cruel to her and I told him so. I also helped her see that his actions were not a reflection of her. He moved out when he realized he wouldn't want the same treatment for himself.

I fail to see why proof and knowledge of this cruelty to one's spouse is proof of love to you. Its a sad day when people validate and confirm their relationships based on how poorly their partner treats others in relation to how they are treated by them. Truthfully, if a woman wants such a man that badly, I say let her have them.

 

I have to agree.

 

It's not that a MP can't be in a bad/unhappy/unfit marriage and can't love another. I would trust a man so much more if he said he loved me but he has to end things first with his wife who he once loved too. Him doing that will give me EVERY future confidence in him and his character and behavior. I would KNOW I have a good man on my hands. I won't have to make excuses for him to myself, my family or friends or to people on LS. As his behavior is transparent and respectable. You only have to explain that which is questionable...

 

As much as people may say they have no problems trusting their AP...I frankly would have that nagging concern about the behavior I witnessed with my own two eyes! For weeks, months, years on end for some. I don't see how people reconcile that...well I do...we humans are good at rationalizing but still, as you said I have no clue how cruelty to one's spouse and love for you can coexist comfortably for someone. And I know some person will bring up abusive spouses and so forth, but I'm not discussing abusive, draconian spouses , but people who have regular, loving spouses who truly have no clue they are cheating or managing an exit. How do you sit with that and feel content and not even consider that this is not about you or the BS but this person's way of dealing with things?

 

Cabin: have you considered these things? That is, what particular things make you confident that your AP is only acting this way now...but when you are together completely, if and when problems should arise he won't? What kind of comforts do you have? I am truly asking, as my thing is, at least if one can articulate it beyond "Well he loves me more" then there is some hope and one isn't just investing in something void of rationality.

[Angelina527]

I agree that not all affairs or affair partners are the same.

 

But all affairs are WRONG. It's as simple as that. If what I did in the past and what you are doing now is not wrong, then why hide it? If your affair is not wrong, then be honest and tell his wife. I wish I would have.

[MissBee]

In my view, as long as your mm still lives at home, you don't really know anything as fact and until he has been moved out and gotten a divorce and you two have a successful relationship for a few years, I wouldn't expect you and your mm to be able to claim success. Until then......you aren't that different than other ow who are actively in an affair.

I don't get why your seldom posts are so angry? It's one thing to get miffed in an actual thread but to start your own thread with anger and lashing out seems odd. Also if you truly feel that other posters here at LS all say the same thing, then why bother with us and why does it matter to you if what is presented as the norm (there is always exceptions) get you so upset. Cabin, why do you care at all what anyone here at LS thinks? I don't get that. :confused: Are you really that sure of yourself and your mm or do you have doubts?

 

I was wondering too.

 

In fact, the few posters who claim LS is fictitious and divorced from reality, I wonder why they bother to come here? It boggles my mind, as if I found you lot to be living on another planet and I also felt like you didn't "get" my situation, I would not bother to come here, especially if I'm confident and happy with my man. What use is it to argue with strangers, whom I already feel are not on the same wave length, about my relationship?! No one does that....except those who aren't really that sure, so they do get something out of the discussion in some way...as much as they are defensive, they are arguing with others to convince themselves!

 

A friend of mine does this...she will almost pick fights or bait people with negative aspects about her relationship and when they do agree that it is indeed negative she'd be mad and then try to argue about all the reasons she should stay and why it was good. SHE would be the one to do this. We weren't the ones bringing her relationship up...but she'd always bring it up in this way that she could then make her case for staying with him... It was her own feelings of insecurity and uncertainty that lead her to do this, it was an outlet for her to silence her doubts and inner turmoil, by getting other people to state the obvious so that she could defend her involvement with him and rationalize it with all her heart....

Edited February 9, 2012 by MissBee

[Cabin]

Thanks for reading and responding, everyone.

 

I really don't intend my posts to be angry and I'm not looking for validation. I just feel a voice like mine is the way minority here...

 

In truth, I see how many people read the posts on here compared to how many actually respond, and the numbers reading are astounding.

 

I remember coming here to get clarity about my situation, reading many posts on here, and feeling like few were coming from current OWs in As that were transitioning into legitimate relationships.

 

So I feel like I need to share what is happening in my situation (for those who post and those who just read), and maybe even defend a little bit that not all As are cookie-cutter shaped (with my own situation as example), to add some variety, and possibly some reassurance to those reading here who might be in similar situations as I.

 

Just to be clear, I do know with certainty what their sleeping arrangements are because it has been documented in their legal proceedings as they prepare to split. I'm not saying that in a gloating, "see?" kind of way... I just want to be clear that wouldn't post about it if I wasn't sure.

 

Anyway, thanks again for your insights.

[whichwayisup]

I do know with certainty what their sleeping arrangements are because it has been documented in their legal proceedings as they prepare to split.

Maybe and hopefully for you, he sticks to what he's told you and what's been documented in their proceedings to divorce. The thing is, many couples before they actually do D, have sex again, kind of like a goodbye.

 

Does she know about you and the affair?

[MissBee]

I understand you to a point Cabin...

 

But frankly, if some posters here are reading desperately looking to hear "different" stories...that in itself says something about their relationship. If you are confident in your man, your relationship, that it is different....then you have no need to be on the sidelines of LS hoping to hear about someone like you. It doesn't matter IMO...because even if no one is like you, it doesn't change your reality. If you are on LS reading away hoping to see a story of hope....it may just be because your situation doesn't seem that hopeful to you and you're looking for some form of hope to cling to. Because if your MM was doing everything he needed to and reassuring you and you were confident....then it seems you'd not have much need to read other people's "hopeful" tales.

 

I suppose I have never understood why someone has to show the positives of As at all...because their situation is working out. I resonate with the current OW turned wives, who have their man but still don't recommend As. I would be that way too. I feel they have a realistic, normal balance of, "MY situation worked but don't bet on it because for many it doesn't". While some OW seem to be operating from the premise of I need to show OW that theirs can work too...I need to encourage them in the A....I need to be an A role model. I don't get that. I would not attribute it working out to the A...I still don't think As are good...I'd attribute it working to my situation. Some OW seem to be scared to admit the realities of most As, while praising THEIR specific situation. Almost like they HAVE to somehow talk about bad outcomes as not common, or mysteriously everyone they know it worked out for them, or they dig up all these hopeful tales. It seems like they are scared that if they admit most As don't ever become full-fledged situations, that their house of cards will come crashing down...so they can't objectively look at that fact and have to find ways to say As working out are more common but we just don't know about it. To me...that is insecurity. If you are confident in your situation...then even if for the last 1 million it didn't work...you'd still be able to say "I know it doesn't normally work..but for me it will". Even if doesn't....that's confidence! But the constant defense of supposed unique As, or looking at the obscure outcomes and reminding everyone of them or accusing people of saying they never work seems to belie ones own doubts, demons and fears.

 

.2 cents.

[Emme]

I am just going to step outside my box for a while and say this. It is possible that Cabin and others are looking for more of an optimistic attitude. Give more support in that things will work out for the best. The warnings normally come first but we leave out the possibility of things might work out. It would irresponsible if we didn’t warn others since most of us have lived. Cabin I wish you well, I hope your love is real.