So Sick Of Being a Consolation Prize

[oaks]

Except if they were deeply attracted to me, I wouldn't feel the need to nettle in the first place. I nettle to make sure it's not my insecurity acting up.

 

How early in the dating process do you need them to be "deeply attracted" to you (vs, say, attracted enough to see the potential in dating you some more to see how things develop but not so much that they won't be turned off my your interrogation)?

 

And I notice you didn't agree with me that this nettling behaviour is deeply unattractive, so I'm going to assume either that you disagree with me or that you actually enjoy the process. Either way: I don't understand you, so perhaps I'm not the right person to offer you further advice on this matter. Good luck.

[Els]

Oh, V. Sorry it turned out like that. I would've been a little miffed too. Really, though, in such situations it's better to just say 'next' and get on with your life rather than extrapolate rather bitterly to include all men. That way when the right one DOES come, you won't drive him away with your cynicism and negativity.

 

You should be the final arbiter on whether or not you ask men out. Really, you could just try both and see how it turns out. The men on these forum are getting on your back because they wish women would ask THEM out. That does not necessarily mean it'll work for you in your current locale. Where I come from, it would be pretty much a disaster for a girl to ask a guy out.

 

It's a pros-and-cons thing, really, asking someone out or not. If you ask them out, you risk them being lackadaisical about the whole thing and not really interested. If you don't ask them out, you risk them being interested but equally shy, missing your signals and thus not knowing that you're interested, etc. I absolutely do think that girls who ask guys out get more dates. Whether or not that is your goal is up to you to decide.

[neowulf]

"So it's better to find out months later he was never into me when he dumps me for someone hotter?"

 

That line alone is a HUGE clue to me.

 

Why? Because it suggests to me deep down you have a massive complex about being unlovable.

 

You don't trust that someone might actually want and love you. You push and dig. You need to be sure they want you and love you. You want them to *prove* it too you, before you'll let them in.

 

Have you stopped to consider why? Or that feelings are fickle things that change? Most couples appear to be in love on their wedding day. Yet these same couples might find themselves locked in a bitter devoice a decade later.

 

You look at your "failed" relationships as a waste? I look at mine as amazing learning experiences, sources of both lessons about myself and lessons about what I want in future relationships. They become a waste only when you choose to see them that way.

 

You can't be sure about the future. You can't *know*. Your need to know, your need to be *sure" is what's holding you back. Because it screams insecurity. It turns people off.

 

If you really want to get into a healthy relationship, look inwards and try to understand where this mistrust comes from. Don't be afraid to get help if you need it. Once you learn to just let go, it'll become easier. You can't control the outcome.. just try and enjoy the ride

[oaks]

rather than extrapolate rather bitterly to include all men.

 

my emphasis, because, well...

 

The men on these forum are getting on your back because they wish women would ask THEM out.

 

... not saying you are bitter, but you made a rather sweeping generalisation there.

[ptp]

I no longer know what to say to verhrzn to help her, so as a last resort:

 

First is the worst

Second is the best

Third is the one with the golden chest???

[Els]

my emphasis, because, well...

 

 

 

... not saying you are bitter, but you made a rather sweeping generalisation there.

 

Rofl, sorry! When I said 'the men on this forum', I meant the guys that V was talking about in her quoted post, the ones whom she said gave her tons of crap for not asking the guys out. I didn't mean 'all men on this forum'. I also notice I made a horrible grammatical error in my previous post. So not my day.

[Krios]

He pursued me in some way (talks to me first, asks for my phone number, contacts me first.) If he's not doing that, he's not into you.

 

That's my usual philosophy, anyway... I've been trying to just "go for it" like guys on LS are constantly complaining girls don't do, and look where it lands me.

 

Pretty much only 3 types of men know what you're describing here. Players, guys that visit dating forums/websites and experienced/older men.

 

The vast majority of men know NOTHING, absolutely jack sh*t about hitting on women or dating them. There is no school that teaches guys that and it doesn't come naturally to most guys either, because we're not born with a phone in our hand and a list of cultural norms that say us to call first. You might think that such things are obvious, they're not. Most guys are pretty clueless.

 

So when you use that as a benchmark, then you'll be missing out on a lot of opportunities.

 

And if it isn't clear... then how do I protect myself from getting into a relationship with a guy who isn't that into me? Nettling was a way to MAKE it clear that I should run. If I don't nettle, how do I avoid that outcome?

 

By dating relationship oriented guys and not friends with benefits who you hope to become the love of your life. You're already starting out on the wrong foot there.

 

EMOTIONAL CONNECTION. That's your best bet, creating an emotional connecting and bonding with him.

 

Also, try to only date guys that only consider dating women they can imagine spending the rest of their life with. Personally I'm such a guy. I tend to only feel chemistry for a relationship if I can imagine myself spending the rest of my life with her, regardless of the fact that that will actually happen. I try to make that assessment from the get go, rather than later on in the relationship, because doing it then can be disastrous.

 

How do you know if a guy feels that way? You can ask. It takes a lot of guts, but you can ask a guy: "Can you see yourself spending the rest of your life with me?"

 

If he says "yes" immediately, then that's your guy. If he pauses, then he's doubting. If he says no, then the answer is also clear.

 

I'm uglier than you assume.

 

I can too believe a guy would like me. The one boyfriend I've had who pursued me, I totally believe liked me.

 

How exactly do I "tell," if I'm doing it wrong, according to you?

 

Yeah I know you love hearing how ugly you are, but you earn enough to give yourself a makeover. Start dressing like a woman, instead of a geeky girl. Do something with you hair, grow it long. NEVER go short if don't have a face with subtle and refined features like Natalie Portman for example. Short hair makes women look more masculine, period.

 

You can work out and work on creating a hot curvy body or a slender elegant body. To take Natalie Portman as an example again, she runs 5 miles every morning to maintain her body type and she's vegetarian in terms of diet.

 

And if you really want to push it, you can choose plastic surgery. If you're for example not happy with your nose, then you could choose to have it "reformed" into a more subtle and refined nose for example.

 

Normally I would NEVER advise that to a woman. However, since you hammer so much on the fact that you think you're ugly, well then the only solution you'll perhaps listen to is to rebuild yourself from the ground up.

 

But if you don't want to go that road, then you could at least work out and adjust your diet to get a certain body type. You can grow your hair long(er) and try out different hairstyles and colors. You can buy well fitting clothes that complement the attractive features of your body. For example, some women have beautiful shoulders, in my opinion those women should expose their shoulders. Some women have a nice pair of legs, they should show them off. Whatever works.

 

But my core advice is still to go for guys that can see themselves being with you for the rest of their lives and build an emotional connection with them, a strong bond beyond the superficial. I'm fairly sure that that's your best bet.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Krios

[oaks]

Rofl, sorry!

 

No worries. I thought it was funny, too.

[neowulf]

How do you know if a guy feels that way? You can ask. It takes a lot of guts, but you can ask a guy: "Can you see yourself spending the rest of your life with me?"

 

Umm.. sorry. But that's just crazy advice.

 

You're telling me you're seriously suggesting someone say that to a guy she's just getting to know?

 

All that question is going to do is encourage the following kinds of behaviour;

 

1) They're emotionally unstable themselves and prone to overcommitting right off the bat to a woman they barely know.

 

2) They'll lie straight to your face, telling you what you want to hear.

 

3) They'll run for the hills, because that's an incredibly needy and insecure question to be asking someone you've just met.

 

At the core of that question is the point I tried to get across before. Why do people feel the need to be certain, right away, of another's intentions?

 

Fear.

 

Fear of being hurt, fear of being abandoned. Fear of wasting time. Fear of being wrong. Fear of feeding into the flawed assumption that you are some how unworthy of love.

 

Learn to cope with that fear and you'll find love. Keep running from it and it will own you.

[Krios]

Umm.. sorry. But that's just crazy advice.

 

You're telling me you're seriously suggesting someone say that to a guy she's just getting to know?

 

All that question is going to do is encourage the following kinds of behaviour;

 

1) They're emotionally unstable themselves and prone to overcommitting right off the bat to a woman they barely know.

 

2) They'll lie straight to your face, telling you what you want to hear.

 

3) They'll run for the hills, because that's an incredibly needy and insecure question to be asking someone you've just met.

 

At the core of that question is the point I tried to get across before. Why do people feel the need to be certain, right away, of another's intentions?

 

Fear.

 

Fear of being hurt, fear of being abandoned. Fear of wasting time. Fear of being wrong. Fear of feeding into the flawed assumption that you are some how unworthy of love.

 

Learn to cope with that fear and you'll find love. Keep running from it and it will own you.

 

That fear is there for a reason. Because people like me DO NOT want to waste time and DO NOT want to end up with the wrong person. For my sake AND for their sake.

 

The only thing that coping is going to do is push the end of the relationship further into the future, until one day your partner is going to tell you they can't see themselves spending the rest of their life with you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not referring to putting pressure on your date that you want to marry them, no that's not what I'm referring to. I go in with an attitude of "let's see how it goes and we'll take it from there". And it's quite possible that the relationship eventually fails. HOWEVER, I just want to have a relationship with a person that at least feels they can see themselves spending the rest of their life with me, REGARDLESS of the actual outcome. And I check with myself for the same.

 

It's about the basis, the foundation...about things feeling right to both parties.

 

The real fear is being afraid of asking that question. The real fear is fearing what the other person might think. But regardless the question is crucial.

[verhrzn]

At the core of that question is the point I tried to get across before. Why do people feel the need to be certain, right away, of another's intentions?

 

Fear.

 

Fear of being hurt, fear of being abandoned. Fear of wasting time. Fear of being wrong. Fear of feeding into the flawed assumption that you are some how unworthy of love.

 

Learn to cope with that fear and you'll find love. Keep running from it and it will own you.

 

I'm really not sure why you think fear of wasting time is a bad thing. I'm not necessarily agreeing with his advice (I've had it pounded into my head girls shouldn't bring up the word "dating" until you're picking out wedding china), but why is it so horrible to weed out the guys who aren't that into you?

[FitChick]

Yeah, I can totally pour $3,000 down a hole.

 

Thank you for at least making an attempt to get more information, which shows you are open minded. I appreciate it. That price sounds like a training weekend or special program. Their website lists the fee as $200/hr, pretty standard for any therapy these days. Call and speak to a human being and find out.

 

I'd recommend trying to get a session with Shelly, only because she had weight and body image issues most of her life and would know how to quickly "tune in" to you.

 

No, I don't work for the Lefkoes. I have had many sessions with them both, although many years ago, and eliminated dozens of negative beliefs I had my whole life related to love and relationships. It truly changed my life. I didn't start successfully dating until I was in my forties. I had online dates flying in from overseas to spend a few days with me or paying for my plane ticket and hotel to fly to them. I was wined, dined, entertained and gifted by successful, educated businessmen. I was over 40, an age when women are supposed to crawl into a hole. Until that time I dated maybe once or twice every few years.

 

It's never too late, but please don't wait as long as I did!

[iris219]

I'm getting in on this late, so I don’t have much to add in regards to your OP because you’ve already been given so much useful and accurate advice. Based on some of your responses, I’m not sure you’ll put any of that advice to good use, but I hope you will.

 

I’ve realized why you’re so stubborn, defensive, and argumentative with everyone here: You crave negative reactions. You won’t accept anything else. Accepting a positive response would shatter the sad, angry world you live in, and you’re very protective of it, as we all are of our self-identities. You want people to be frustrated and annoyed with you. You don’t like you, so you wouldn’t know how to respond to someone who does. This is something therapy will help you with.

 

People DO tell you how to be positive, but you disregard it. You practice positivity by not twisting every event in your life so that it can be viewed as a negative. Also, positive people readjust the past to fit the present. Sure, we’ve all have negative experiences, but positive people focus more on the good ones. They don’t let the bad ones define them. You dwell on your bad experiences; you constantly bring up the past, even as far back as high school.

 

The guy you posted about is a non-issue, yet you’re using him to confirm all of your fears and insecurities. You’ve proven with this post that you’re looking to skew every man’s actions, however benign, in order to maintain your miserable outlook on yourself and your life. Everyone goes on dates that don’t work out; it doesn’t even sound like this was a date. A confident, emotionally stable person wouldn’t even still be thinking about the guy, especially after he talked about who he hooked up with.

 

I sympathize with the difficulties you've had, but you make everything so much worse than it has to be. If I used every jerk I went on a date with as a confirmation of my unworthiness, I'd be in a fetal position unable to leave my house. Stop making yourself miserable. If a man does anything other than announce his undying love for you, stop using it to erode your self-esteem even further.

[Lonely Ronin]

I have no need for a guy to "drool" over me.

 

I'm not asking for him to be madly in love with me by the first date. That's an exaggeration on your part of what I want. All I want is a guy who shows interest.

 

Neither of these comments correlate with what you have said previously.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3809741#post3809741

Additionally, I do have this hang-up that would prevent me from dating such a guy as you mention... I WANT my potential-boyfriend to find me really physically attractive. I don't want to date a guy who doesn't mind that I'm not hot, that is attracted to my personality. I want a guy who is attracted to both. Someone who actually thinks I'm a catch.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3771936#post3771936

Because I want a guy who finds me hot. Not "attractive," but physically attractive. The kind of guy who first saw me across a room and thought," She is among the hottest/most beautiful women I have ever seen."

 

IMO after reading many of your posts, It's my opinion you have never fully gotten over the fact that you dated and got treated like crap by some real d-bags. It appears to me, that what they said has made you jaded and generally suspicious of all men. It seems like you are subconsciously looking for any sign that a man might find another women more physically attractive than you.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that this mentality is incredibly toxic in a relationship. My ex of 7+ years had experiences very similar to yours, and the fact that she never got over them destroyed our relationship. her issues where 2 fold, besides she had cruel previous boyfriends, and a b-bag of a father that treated her mother like crap. At first everything was awesome, but after a year or so, thinks slowly started to emerge. I constantly had to prove that I was highly attracted to her, and that I loved her. "You look nice" (in a given outfit) wasn't good enough, she had to be gorgeous, beautiful, or hot etc. If she made dinner, saying it was good wasn't good enough, it had to be perfect, excellent, or great. any time I didn't live up to expectation I think she added a little check mark on a list. Over time our relationship became mentally draining, I could never relax, and just enjoy life, I was constantly walking on egg shells. And guess what, she ended it not I. Her reason was that I never fully supported her. It took over a year of counselling and help from a lot of friends to realize that i did everything i could to make the relationship work, and while my general combativeness when I feel I'm being treated unfairly didn't help matters, it was far from my fault.

 

You are not un-attractive, but you're not "hot" either, so the chances of the across the room thing happening for you are low. You'are in the same boat as the rest of us. That is to say when you meet someone, you are going to have to prove to them that you are "worth it", just as they will have to prove to you that they are "worth it". Your issue with your perceived attractiveness is a big red flag. I'm hyper sensitive to it now, and could probably pick it up from across the room. Most guys will probably pick up something isn't right after talking to you for a little while, but they probably won't be able to put the finger on exactly what's wrong.

 

I really do hope you find an excellent guy, but i think you are going to have to address some of your personal daemons first.

[Krios]

Neither of these comments correlate with what you have said previously.

 

It's not the first time verhrzn contradicts herself. You and I are also not the first people to notice and mention that.

 

verhrzn is working herself into a corner where only a blunt and harsh approach will make sense to her.

 

Example:

 

verhrzn: I'm ugly

Krios: Then fix your face. You can afford the surgery as a programmer.

 

Do I like or want to give replies like that? No. Do I even agree with it? Rarely if ever. But she hammers so much on that very point, that only a direct answer like that will expose her bluffing to herself. Because then she actually needs to reflect upon the fact whether she wants to go under the knife or not and that is confronting.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I am not talking to you, V, because I've already said this to you and it's fallen on deaf (well, more like plugged with fingers, accompanied by "I can't hear you I can't hear you I can't hear you) ears. But it's pertinent to the thread.

 

There is a LOT of chatter around here lately about "hot" girls, porn stars, celebrities and how regular women can't compete.

 

I promise you that men, whether they are visual or whatever, are just as capable of getting a big hard-on for a girl as they start to really like her as a woman is for a man.

 

If you are compelling to somebody, and you "connect" a lot with them, you don't have to be Megan Fox, or whomever.

 

Guys, back me on this. I'm sure most of you have met a girl who was attractive, but not blowing your mind with her looks - but then you talked to her, had eye contact, maybe had some physical contact - and it starts to dawn on you that you think she is really sexy, interesting, irresistible, or whatever.

 

Of course, if people meet and one of them commences to picking on the other one in their fervor to "prove" that they're a douche, the connection is never going to happen.

 

I guess that some would consider that a win/win? Proven "right" again, no matter what an effort it took?

[Mme. Chaucer]

verhrzn is working herself into a corner where only a blunt and harsh approach will make sense to her.

 

Example:

 

verhrzn: I'm ugly

Krios: Then fix your face. You can afford the surgery as a programmer.

 

 

You're right. The alternative, which is common, goes more like:

 

verhrzn: I'm ugly

Mme. Chaucer: No you're not, you are very cute with a good figure.

verhrzn: You're a LIAR.

 

Good times.

[somedude81]

I think V is looking for a guy that can get excited just from looking at her with clothes on. Somebody who thinks she's the hottest thing in the world...

 

V is good looking and I've already told her that, but she wants more.

Edited February 14, 2012 by somedude81

[jobaba]

Last Saturday is when we went out for drinks, and I thought he seemed very flirty, and that everything was going well.... Until midway through, he suddenly mentions how he and another girl had hooked up at the party. He made some joke about he should have figured out that the hot ones are always trouble, because it turned out she wasn't that interested in him.

 

I just sat there, stunned. This is the third time this has happened to me-I ask a guy out, and it turns out he's only going out with me because the girl he really likes rejected him. The implicit comment also being that I'm "safe" because I'm not a hot girl also really stings.

 

Is this just my lot in life? How would I even go about changing it, since I'm not aware it happens until the first few dates, or in a few cases, months into a relationship? It's happened so frequently that at this point, I feel like I just have to accept that I'm gonna be the Safety School Girlfriend forever.

 

That has happened to me too. More than once. Much worse than you. I have thought a woman thought I was hot and then she goes on to admit she really didn't think I was that attractive per se, but I was cool, or smart, or cheeky or whatever ... and goes on to tell some story of some hot guy she was lusting for just months ago.

 

Meh. That's the way life is. People are shallow. The issue I take with this situation is the same as you do. It's pretty insensitive to bring up looks in this manner.

 

*For example* A lot of people think this way ... Well, Verhrzn is not a hot woman, so she won't be offended if I refer to her as not hot.

 

I wouldn't ever do that. If a girl who I was dating or getting to know asked me if I thought she was hot and I didn't, I'd say, "Sure, you're a hot mama." Why be completely honest when you're going to possibly hurt someone's feelings in the process? This has never made sense to me. Hot, good looking, they're just flexible terms anyway.

 

It's laughable when women are like, Man A is sexy, Man B is good looking, Man C is handsome, Man D is cute, etc, etc...

Edited February 14, 2012 by jobaba

[Imajerk17]

I am not talking to you, V, because I've already said this to you and it's fallen on deaf (well, more like plugged with fingers, accompanied by "I can't hear you I can't hear you I can't hear you) ears. But it's pertinent to the thread.

 

There is a LOT of chatter around here lately about "hot" girls, porn stars, celebrities and how regular women can't compete.

 

I promise you that men, whether they are visual or whatever, are just as capable of getting a big hard-on for a girl as they start to really like her as a woman is for a man.

 

If you are compelling to somebody, and you "connect" a lot with them, you don't have to be Megan Fox, or whomever.

 

Guys, back me on this. I'm sure most of you have met a girl who was attractive, but not blowing your mind with her looks - but then you talked to her, had eye contact, maybe had some physical contact - and it starts to dawn on you that you think she is really sexy, interesting, irresistible, or whatever.

 

Of course, if people meet and one of them commences to picking on the other one in their fervor to "prove" that they're a douche, the connection is never going to happen.

 

I guess that some would consider that a win/win? Proven "right" again, no matter what an effort it took?

 

I agree with everything you said Mme Chaucer.

 

And FWIW, I have said at least a couple of times to V on her thread that she is really cute--the way she is--and that a lot of guys would go for someone like her with her interests. Got totally talked around by V both times. Didn't even get the compliment acknowledged. The last time I was talked around, she was arguing with someone about some specific diet plan and whatnot and how she couldn't lose weight (I forget the specifics of the argument).

 

So I concluded that V either she just doesn't like me (which is cool and her prerogative BTW), or that she is drawn to negativity a lot more. Maybe V just can't take a compliment about her looks. It sure seems that way sometimes. My point is that I can see how guys are turned off by her. It's not her looks, it's her attitude.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Imajerk17

[Fondue]

Hey Verhrzn, let me give you a boost of confidence.

 

If given the opportunity, I would stick my dick in you.

 

Cool? Now you should go out there with a skip in your step, knowing that I, Fondue, a fine male specimen, would insert my man sword into your lady sheath.

[xxoo]

Except if they were deeply attracted to me, I wouldn't feel the need to nettle in the first place. I nettle to make sure it's not my insecurity acting up.

 

V, you sometimes point out that you need to do something different to get better results.

 

You are right. One of those things is that you need to stop nettling.

 

You don't "need" to nettle to make sure it isn't your insecurity acting up.

 

What other ways could you evaluate a relationship to determine if he is into you or not, without nettling?

 

THis isn't working. What can you do different?

[xxoo]

I think V is looking for a guy that can get excited just from looking at her with clothes on. Somebody who thinks she's the hottest thing in the world...

 

I think so, too.

 

V, I wish you could understand that many (most?) solid relationships don't begin with that kind of instant attraction. The kind of attraction that lasts is based on more than physical ideal. You spend time together, connect on many levels, want to spend all your time together, have amazing sex together, and suddenly there is NO ONE more beautiful in the world.

[Lonely Ronin]

I think so, too.

 

V, I wish you could understand that many (most?) solid relationships don't begin with that kind of instant attraction. The kind of attraction that lasts is based on more than physical ideal. You spend time together, connect on many levels, want to spend all your time together, have amazing sex together, and suddenly there is NO ONE more beautiful in the world.

 

 

^ This is so true, and it's depressing how so many people don't get it.

[neowulf]

I'm really not sure why you think fear of wasting time is a bad thing. I'm not necessarily agreeing with his advice (I've had it pounded into my head girls shouldn't bring up the word "dating" until you're picking out wedding china), but why is it so horrible to weed out the guys who aren't that into you?

 

I think fear is generally a pretty rotten emotion to let control your decisions.

I think it should factor into them sure, but it shouldn't have the final say.

 

I also think it's perfectly fine to weed out guys who are wasting your time. The issue I take is with your *method* of doing so.

 

You appear to believe that the way to "weed" out the time wasters is to build your walls stupidly high and force people to climb over them. Anyone who can be bothered to fight his way through them must really care right?

 

Except that approach makes you insanely high maintenance. It's not attractive. It reeks of insecurity. It pushes people away. An effect you appear to be extremely frustrated with.

 

The *only* way you stand a chance of weeding people out is by observing their actions. Not their words. No amount of grilling is going to really tell you what a person is feeling in their heart of hearts.

 

To observe peoples actions you need *time*. Investing time is the *only* way you can really get to know someone. You appear to have a large degree of focus on the guy and not a whole lot on yourself... so I'll put it this way.

 

When a guy displays interest in you, *all* you have to know is this;

 

Am I attracted enough and interested enough in this person to risk the investment of time to get to know them.

 

and after dating a while...

 

Does this persons actions line up with what they say they feel for me?

 

You'll note the first statement has nothing to do with how the other person feels. That's because you can't *know* in advance how it's going to pan out. You have to take a chance, play the odds. That's all any of us do.

 

Do *you* feel enough to risk it. To risk "wasting" your time. To risk "being hurt". Stop making it up to the other person to make you feel safe. You aren't safe. You can't be. The world just isn't like that. All you can do is roll the dice and try to stay positive.

 

I really hope you get some help to deal with this. I think underneath all the pain and insecurity is a pretty awesome girl.