So Sick Of Being a Consolation Prize

[oaks]

I change my question to "fine, how do I give up?" I've asked that multiple times in this thread, and all I've gotten back are snarky answers like "masturbate" or "well I gave up wanting a unicorn."

 

And several answers along the lines of "get therapy". Those weren't snarky, but I see you're pretending they didn't exist. They were serious answers.

[oaks]

Actual advice besides "stop being so negative!" and "Like yourself!" That is not advice, that is a Dove Chocolate wrapper.

 

If a poster is gonna get down on me for being negative, then have some actual, constructive ways to not be that way.

 

Girl who thinks she has a size/weight problem extends the debate by quoting taglines from chocolate wrappers. *facepalm*

 

Constructive: Eat less Dove chocolate unless you can actually follow the advice on the wrapper.

 

You can also file this under 'snarky' if it helps.

[Leigh 87]

oooooooooooomg, I have also stated this same thing " looks DO COUNT, because, if u are a 5 out of ten, and there is a 7 out of ten, BOTH could have amazing personalities. The looker will win.

 

 

There are a lot of girls out there with amazing personalities; I have actually said MANY times on loveshack, that less attractive girls get overlooked, because there are better looking women who also have personalities as awesome as the lesser attractive women.....

 

 

 

 

 

I am about a 7; hot, but a bad nose, and not the desirable petite build ( but still great body and not large build)

 

 

I have every confidence of being noticed above a perfect 10, if a guy sits down and becomes friends with me first; I do not think a guy would LEAVE a lesser attractuve girl with a great personality, once they fall in love, and want nothing but for that women...

 

 

However... I guess, if two women both are great, but one is far more attractive.. the far more beautiful women will win.

 

HEY though - at the VERY LEAST, if your a 5 or 6 out of ten, u can enjoy life more, by being a positive and happy person, despite the fact u will never be able to get a guy, as easily as better looking people.

 

 

It is sh*t to be unnatractive. Better l;ooking people get more in life; people warm to them, by instinct.. they can get any guy they want ( unless they are totally awful peopel), they get jobs easier....the liost is limitless....

 

 

However, u can either a) accept that u have to work harder in life, to be happy than a more attractiver person, and just feel happy and clessed that yuo are YOU, and THRIVE on attracting people around you, that love you for who you are.

 

 

b) be so bitter, that u become a lesser person because of the fact your unnatractuve or average. Of course, having a negative attitude means that, as well as being unnatractuve, u will miss out on the guys AND friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

 

 

Plenty of average girls have a great life - they are amazing people, and have amazing friends, and everything in life a beautiful person has. ONly difference is, they cannot get the guys that their perfect 10, model girlfriend can get.

 

 

Don't be bitter!!! it will only get you less friends, and make u a sad and onley person.

 

Not turning heads, from guys, is something MOST PEOPLE Live with! Accept it, so u can attract friends and other people around u. NO ONE wants to be around a bitter, negative person.

[zengirl]

There's a very easy answer for that... they are not as unattractive as you think they are, or I am less attractive than you seem to think I am.

 

I think one of the male posters once suggested you "go to Wal-Mart" and look at couples and maybe you seriously should. There are some REALLY ugly people coupled up out there. There are ugly, poor, mean, terrible people coupled up even. And some of them are happy! (Not all beautiful couples are happy, so 'some' is just fine and not an indicator of attractiveness being the issue.) I feel like you not only have a warped view of your own attractiveness but of the attractiveness of others. When you see someone who's unattractive and a happy person, what do you think? Do you think they don't deserve to be happy? What if they're in a relationship? Do you assume it will fail?

 

That's why I want to get surgery... to fix what's wrong. I am very happy to hear that you've found success and improved the way you want, but, you are you, and I am not you. You have positives to balance out your negatives. I... don't so much. I have a rather neutral personality. I don't learn quickly. I'm not very creative. I have an average set of work skills. My only positive is that my parents instilled in me a disgustingly harsh work ethic in regards to having a job. And that I can clean really well when I'm not lazy.

 

Why can't you build some internal stuff to be proud of? I don't even think there's anything WRONG with plastic surgery, but I think getting plastic surgery to get a sense of self worth is a recipe for disaster. For one thing, it's going to be endless then. We all get MORE physical flaws as we age, as xxoo said, and there is no way to be perfect looking anyway.

 

Why not try to fix all that other stuff? Why not try to be proud of who you are? And why tie so much of the idea of your self-worth into your looks? Even if you looked like Megan Fox, tying your self worth up with your looks so strongly will be a recipe for disaster. Look at Heather Locklear's recent meltdown, which was supposedly caused because she can't deal with aging. She's still beautiful, but she's turning to drugs to deal with the fact she doesn't look like she used to. Sad.

 

So, if there are no positives to focus on, how can you focus on positives?

 

Make some. Do nice things for people, for one thing. Volunteer somewhere and give back---that is a positive quality in a person. Take pride in your work. Aren't you a programmer? Then, you must be reasonably smart, whether you think you're a 'fast learner' or not. Take pride in something---and you don't have to be the pinnacle of greatness at something to take pride in it, really.

 

I've read the Tao of Pooh, and this may not surprise you, but I wasn't a fan. I found it kind of anti-intellectual. Like this quote:

 

"If knowledge and cleverness are allowed to go on wrecking things, they will before much longer destroy all life in earth as we know it, and what little may temporarily survive, will not be wort looking at, even if it would somehow be possible for us to do so".

 

Well, I'm pretty sure I *am* an intellectual. (I'm a PhD student that works in Education and fusses about anti-intellectual sentiment in this country and such. I was a member of Mensa for awhile---lapsed now because I found it pretty pointless, but the IQ doesn't changed.) But that doesn't mean I believe intellectualism can solve everything. I'm pretty sure pulling a quote from a philosophy out of context of something like the Tao of Pooh, which is showing you several competing ways of seeing the world, is a bit tricky. I assume that was a quote about the 'Tigger' philosophy?

 

I love knowledge and cleverness, but the point there was they cannot be unleashed without balance. The key to Taoism is balance. I'm not saying Taoism is even for anyone, but it's certainly not anti-intellectual. It's not really anti anything, except those things that don't work and throw things off balance.

 

Reading the books in the specific order I cited was for a reason as well, because the Tao of Pooh is a good intro to the Tao Te Ching, but the Tao Te Ching is different. And the Tao of Dating first sets it in a dating frame of mind.

 

Since I'm a big fan of knowledge and cleverness, that rubbed me very much the wrong way. I LIKE thinking, and figuring stuff out. Granted, I have not studied Taoism at all, but if "Pooh" was an example, then it seems my natural inclination is at strong odds with the philosophy of Tao, so trying to squeeze myself into that mindset might not work for me.

 

I do not think one could study the Tao without thinking and figuring stuff out. Pooh is not the person 'studying Tao.' He is the raw essence of Pu, the uncarved block, and the mode you can enter if your studies are deep enough. The point of the book was showing Pooh may be simple but he is beautifully and wisely simple, and that his way of showing the world leads to happiness.

 

Pu is a good concept because it shows everything is perfect just as it is. A broken cup is perfect at being a broken cup. And when you can view the world that way, even sometimes, you can be happier. It doesn't mean you cannot fix the cup or get a new cup or find a cup that does what you need, if the broken cup does not. It doesn't mean you pretend the cup is not cracked. It just means you ACCEPT it. The main point of Tao is accepting what is, finding balance, and following the natural flow of life rather than fighting against it. It doesn't mean we never do, think, or fix anything. It just means we don't drive ourselves to misery over it.

 

Well maybe that's also the thing about "being positive." There's not much to say.

"Things are great!" "That's great!" *Silence*

 

Oh, I can say tons about being positive, as can many others, and I think they have.

 

There are a couple of fascinating anthropological studies that show complaining is a bonding experience, gossip helps tie a community together, and humans feel more closeness in times of adversity and strife than in happy situations.

 

The hormones released in times of adversity DO lead to bonding. That's a natural survival instinct that has helped humankind survive and thrive (and also helped it cause plenty of destruction) above other animals. It is also perhaps part of why some people seek constant drama in relationships, but it doesn't usually work out when sustained. Nor does turning a positive situation or a neutral situation into one filled with strife really work that way---it just leads to misery. The biological purpose for such hormones was probably meant for times of true disaster so that people would work together, one of the core traits that allowed humankind to flourish.

 

Also in a twisted way, I think me being "negative" about myself makes other people feel better about themselves. It's like my friend who always invites me along to the bars when she's having an "ugly" day. She knows once we get there, she's gonna get hit on and I'm gonna be ignored, and my negativity and jealousy reinforce her positive experience.

 

Pretty sad that you'd participate in such an endeavor.

 

Zen and the Tao seem anti-intellectual only in that they attempt to show you how to suppress the intellect, i.e. clear your mind, when it's getting in the way of you being free to take action and pay attention to your instincts and senses. It's not an all-encompassing philosophy--just a tool you pull out when your thoughts are becoming destructive, causing you pain, or preventing you from reaching your goals. If you're one of the lucky few who can look at the world calmly and rationally and don't allow negative thinking to cloud your judgment or ability to take action, you've already reached the same point without taking that particular path to enlightenment. Rarely do I meet such people.

 

Once you've mastered the philosophy, you're free to think with as much creativity and complexity as you like. It's only anti-intellectual until you've gotten the hang of it.

 

This is true, to a degree, as well. I don't honestly think it's EVER anti-intellectual, but I do see such philosophies as tools. Granted, some people can indulge in them more than others, and they're not for everyone, but rarely do you find non-intellectuals studying Eastern religions, honestly.

 

Allow me the small if slightly off topic elaboration on that theory:

 

The Power Of Now book by Eckhart Tolle explains that the mind is merely a tool and when we identify with the egoic mind and rely on it more than our "true self", then we concede control over our lives to our emotions. Using the mind as a tool instead of allowing it to control us actually makes it easier to use our minds and our intellect effectively and much more fluently than before. A concept that I am getting used to and actually getting a bit of headway!

 

Yes, I'm not hugely thrilled with everything in that book, but I think that's the best takeaway from it. You control your mind; your mind is NOT you (all you are) and it does not control you.

[verhrzn]

It depends on how average or unattractive you are. If someone is less attractive like a 7 then the guy might pick the 7 out from the Hot 10 if the 7 has a better personality. However, if a girl is a 5 then I don't think he would pick her over the hot girl. I'm not a guy btw but a female but I know how guys think. The guy will go for a 7 or an 8 with looks and a great personality rather than someone below average looking. If you are too below average looking you will get overlooked no matter how great you are because there will be other women out there that are a bit more better looking but also with a great personality (these women may not be "hot" but still more attractive than average. Looks are not everything but LOOKS STILL COUNT. If a guy finds a woman totally unattractive physically then no amount of personality will make up for that. You see; a guy doesn't need to pick a hot girl but he needs to pick someone he finds attractive, like maybe a 6 or a 7. If an woman is a 5 or lower than the guy won't pick her; why when he can have someone slightly more attractive but still with a great personality?

 

This is what I've been saying all along. Looks aren't everything, guys do fall in love with personality, but they have to find you attractive first in order for them to bother getting to know you as a person. If you have an awesome personality, but you're unattractive... guess what, they think of you as an awesome friend, not a girlfriend. I'm not really sure what is so "negative" about acknowledging this truth. Would anyone really dispute it??

 

I think one of the male posters once suggested you "go to Wal-Mart" and look at couples and maybe you seriously should. There are some REALLY ugly people coupled up out there. There are ugly, poor, mean, terrible people coupled up even. And some of them are happy! (Not all beautiful couples are happy, so 'some' is just fine and not an indicator of attractiveness being the issue.) I feel like you not only have a warped view of your own attractiveness but of the attractiveness of others. When you see someone who's unattractive and a happy person, what do you think? Do you think they don't deserve to be happy? What if they're in a relationship? Do you assume it will fail?

 

Sure I think they're happy, and of course I think they deserve a relationship, and that it won't necessarily fail. The difference is, you see those people at Walmart as unattractive. I might as well, but I assume their partner doesn't. No matter how "heinous" I think they might be, I actually think their partner found them attractive, and not just because of their "sparkling personality." That, or the guy settled. I guess if settling makes them both happy, power to them, but that's not the life I want for myself. I'd much rather a guy leave me alone then date me because he couldn't get a girl he actually wanted.

 

 

Pu is a good concept because it shows everything is perfect just as it is. A broken cup is perfect at being a broken cup. And when you can view the world that way, even sometimes, you can be happier. It doesn't mean you cannot fix the cup or get a new cup or find a cup that does what you need, if the broken cup does not. It doesn't mean you pretend the cup is not cracked. It just means you ACCEPT it. The main point of Tao is accepting what is, finding balance, and following the natural flow of life rather than fighting against it. It doesn't mean we never do, think, or fix anything. It just means we don't drive ourselves to misery over it.

 

Maybe this is because I've never been good at philosophy, but I just don't get this. A broken cup is perfect at being a broken cup?? Wha? How does that relate to anything? Is it saying that all emotion is bad... that if you break a cup, you should "accept that it is perfect as a broken cup." What if it's your friend's cup, and you should feel guilty for handling it roughly? What if it's your grandma's heirloom and you feel sad that you just broke something that meant a lot to your family? Are you never allowed any emotion? You just have to "follow the natural flow of life." What does that even mean? What the heck is "natural flow"?

 

This is the frustrating thing for me about "positive thinking" and these sorts of philosophies-they make no sense from a practical standpoint! It just sounds like a bunch of mysticism. I am the un-romantic in that I want my "how to get self esteem" to read like stereo instructions. "Insert piece A into slot B." This whole "accept the broken cup, feel the natural flow of the universe!" is confusing and vague.

[ScreamingTrees]

How is accepting your flaws vague? Think about what you dislike about yourself, and then realize in your head over and over again that no matter what, these were the cards you were dealt. Not much you can do, but it shouldn't stop you from playing them anyway.

 

Have you see a majority of plastic surgery cases? They usually don't look drastically different afterwards - their noses look slightly different, but take the before and after and there's not a huge difference. You're still going to have the same problems you're perceiving now, for whatever reason. There is ALWAYS someone out there on a similar level of attractiveness, if that's what you think your problem is.

 

And as crude as it sounds, yes, you walk into any Walmart and you'd feel like a celebrity a majority of the time. It doesn't seem to attract people who take care of themselves at all.. You're not really bad looking. I wish I could just SEE a better, clearer picture of you so that I could be 100% sure that you're just being a self-defeating irrational jerk..

[Dafa]

Obviously it's unrealistic to only date people who had never been rejected. But if a guy meets two girls at once, and chooses Girl A, should Girl B really be that excited that he then gives her a chance after Girl A rejects him? Isn't that basic "He's Just Not That Into You"?

 

 

 

 

Well that is nice to hear. So many guys on this board argue that girls should be the aggressors, and I always get yelled down when I explain why chasing after guys is a vast of time.

 

Of course, that means I have no options, because guys never approach me. So I guess it's just hopeless either way.

 

Firstly, i ask of you: Please don't listen to the poster above the one i quoted. Personally, i tend to find such unilateral and oversimplistic advices quite dangerous. But hey, this is my point of view... To each his own.

 

Now, i think i understand your issue. But i wonder the following: You are putting yourself in a position of 2nd choice, right? This point of view that you have implies that you, within some kind of absolute scale, are positioning yourself below the ones that were the 1st choice. But now, what if you consider that you are neither better nor worse than anyone else, just different. That would make it so that he just looked for something different.

 

Guy: "Hmm, i'm in the mood for oranges", "No oranges! Damn it", "Hmm, those apples seem quite tasty!".

 

Something like this!

 

Having said that i wholeheartedly understand the tendency to jump to an absolute scaling, i do it too!

 

I think the post from Mme. Chaucer (or something like that) is quite correct and wise.

[zengirl]

This is what I've been saying all along. Looks aren't everything, guys do fall in love with personality, but they have to find you attractive first in order for them to bother getting to know you as a person. If you have an awesome personality, but you're unattractive... guess what, they think of you as an awesome friend, not a girlfriend. I'm not really sure what is so "negative" about acknowledging this truth. Would anyone really dispute it??

 

Nobody is saying that a guy doesn't need to find you attractive for a relationship to work. What people have said is:

 

(1) You are attractive ENOUGH that some people will (and I'm sure do) find you attractive.

 

(2) Attraction is not purely about looks, but also about the energy, attitude, and attributes you give off, and certain things can grow or diminish it.

 

(3) It is not about comparative attraction; i.e. it is not important that you be the MOST attractive (initially and physically) girl in the room or that the guy has ever met or even close; it's not about comparisons.

 

Nobody has said, "Attraction doesn't matter." They have just said your views and ideas of it are extreme and incorrect.

 

Sure I think they're happy, and of course I think they deserve a relationship, and that it won't necessarily fail. The difference is, you see those people at Walmart as unattractive. I might as well, but I assume their partner doesn't. No matter how "heinous" I think they might be, I actually think their partner found them attractive, and not just because of their "sparkling personality."

 

Right! Their partner sees them as attractive. Comparatively, to society, they may be ugly, but someone still saw them as attractive! And YOU are above average in attractiveness, so SOME people will see you as attractive. That's my point. Those people (not EVERYONE in the Wal-Mart obviously, as there is no force field stopping hot people from entering Wal-Mart) are less attractive, comparatively, than you are, and someone still finds them attractive. THUS, someone still finds you attractive; and, in fact, many men who've seen pictures of you on LS have said you are reasonably attractive. (Sure, maybe not traffic-stopping hot, but that is not the point.)

 

Maybe this is because I've never been good at philosophy, but I just don't get this. A broken cup is perfect at being a broken cup?? Wha? How does that relate to anything? Is it saying that all emotion is bad... that if you break a cup, you should "accept that it is perfect as a broken cup." What if it's your friend's cup, and you should feel guilty for handling it roughly? What if it's your grandma's heirloom and you feel sad that you just broke something that meant a lot to your family? Are you never allowed any emotion? You just have to "follow the natural flow of life." What does that even mean? What the heck is "natural flow"?

 

It is saying "Everything is perfect at being what it is." Even something that seems useless to you or isn't what you wish it was---the only problem comes from wishing the broken cup were not broken. If the cup is chipped and can't hold tea, then don't pour tea in it. But accept that it's broken and perfect at being what it is now. That often means accepting change (perhaps the cup wasn't always broken) or things not going exactly as we wished, but seeing that 'fighting' these things (not changing them; as I said, fixing the cup, if it's possible, is fine!) gets you nowhere but unhappy.

 

And, no, no one is saying you're "never" allowed any emotion or misery or sadness, but why wallow in it? What good does it do? If you broke an heirloom, you could of course feel badly and apologetic and sad, but eventually you'd accept it. Even in grieving, acceptance is part of the process and the part where things get better. Acceptance is a cure, and it is how you flow with the world. That's what I've experienced at least.

 

This is the frustrating thing for me about "positive thinking" and these sorts of philosophies-they make no sense from a practical standpoint! It just sounds like a bunch of mysticism. I am the un-romantic in that I want my "how to get self esteem" to read like stereo instructions. "Insert piece A into slot B." This whole "accept the broken cup, feel the natural flow of the universe!" is confusing and vague.

 

Steps:

 

1. Decide to be happy with what you already have.

2. Change the things you can change for the better (the things you can actually start working on right now).

3. Accept the things you cannot change.

 

None of these are difficult once you decide to do them.

[ThaWholigan]

Who ever told you that you were autistic? These are some symptoms:

 

• Resistance to change
  
• Difficulty expressing needs (pointing instead of using words)
  
• Repetitive use of words / phrases
  
• Laughing / crying for no apparent reason
  
• Preference to being alone (often aloof)
  
• Throws constant tantrums
  
• Difficulty socializing / mixing with others
  
• Avoids eye contact
  
• Obsessive attachment to objects
  
• No real fear of Danger
  
• Spinning / flicking objects
  
• Over / Under sensitivity to pain
  
• Uneven gross / fine motor skills
  
• Non-responsive to verbal-cues
  

 

I have experienced all of these very strongly at various points in my childhood, and some I still experience now, such as a fluctuating sensitivity to pain, some days I do not feel it, other days even a light touch can be irritating (or arousing depending on the person ). I have been known to repeat things, and my dyspraxia diagnosis covers my uneven motor skills. I don't spin of flick stuff but I do like to pick stuff up and play with it or drum on tables (I even rock on my chair like a typical autistic person!). Perhaps the one thing I do not do is have tantrums, I grew out of those pretty early.

 

It's likely that the difference between someone with mere social issues and someone with high-functioning autism is that the people with social issues are only under-developed because of a lack of initiative on their part to really change and grow comfortable with something they never were inclined towards, whereas someone with even a slight degree of autism might naturally experience more difficulty even WITH effort, determination, and a desire to improve, no?

 

I have a lot of respect for anyone who can rise above any handicaps or limitations and succeed regardless. Would've never imagined that Wholi had a mild form of autism, going by the first few posts I'd read from him.. At least, until he'd addressed it in a post. It doesn't seem to affect him nearly as much as it might've, as far as we all can tell, so it's all good!

 

It took an EXTRAORDINARY amount of work for me to get to the point I am at now. I was always very sensitive, it is the one anomaly in my diagnosis: an over-abundance of emotions. It is not true that autistic people lack empathy or emotions, they just have difficulty expressing them appropriately. I would hide away a lot, and preferred my own company, even though I secretly longed to be more social. In the end, college changed a lot for me as I was doing something I loved while there: making music. As a result, people saw me literally come out of my shell and become more comfortable being my natural oddball self . It was hard, I made many mistakes socially, but I kept going because I had to in order to simply get by. By the time I was at University in late 07, all my social problems (excluding girls) had been dealt with effectively. However, I still have good and bad days with regards to the other symptoms, such as the stimming, synesthesia and hypersensitivity (touch, taste, sight and hearing), motor skills (I'm big and clumsy lol), and sometimes my echolalic nature when it comes to talking about stuff.

 

I'm pretty sure he is well informed about his own diagnosed condition. Have you read his past posts? He's been dealing with it since childhood.

 

Plenty of people are misdiagnosed with all sorts of illnesses and conditions. The mental health community is notorious for labeling everything as a syndrome, condition or disease. There is a growing protest over this practice. Read and learn. My opinion is that Big Pharma is behind all these new diseases appearing out of nowhere because coincidentally they have the cure! Fancy that!

 

I do agree, even though I think I meet the criteria for what I was diagnosed for. I was just incredibly fortunate to have the determination I do, and lucky that I had a mother who did not molly-coddle me and enabled me to be a stronger person. My environment was not one that was especially comfortable for an autistic boy, and I was forced to adapt. When I was diagnosed at 20, I thought it was bull****. I bitterly complained to my mum that it wasn't true, but she seriously considered the possibility and contacted people. I saw psychologists for a whole year, before getting my diagnosis. It was actually kind of enlightening in the end.

 

However, as you point out, there is an over-diagnosis of some disorders, particularly ADHD. I have a cousin who actually has ADHD, so I know what it looks like. I didn't like seeing him on Ritalin though, it was kind of crushing to see him so subdued. I don't think they should be medicated, some form of therapy would be better.

[xxoo]

Sure I think they're happy, and of course I think they deserve a relationship, and that it won't necessarily fail. The difference is, you see those people at Walmart as unattractive. I might as well, but I assume their partner doesn't. No matter how "heinous" I think they might be, I actually think their partner found them attractive, and not just because of their "sparkling personality."

 

But do you believe that, on first sight, they all considered their partner to be the "hot" one at the party?

 

I asked earlier, what if a man was attracted to you (thinks you are cute, likes your body), but is just drooling over another girl at the party. He goes for her, and is rejected. Then he goes for you. You hit it off. He finds himself more and more attracted to you, and now he finds you more attractive than he ever found the "hottie".

 

Would you ever be able to accept that you weren't his first choice? Would you always feel that he settled for you?

[EnigmaticClarity]

And as crude as it sounds, yes, you walk into any Walmart and you'd feel like a celebrity a majority of the time. It doesn't seem to attract people who take care of themselves at all.. You're not really bad looking. I wish I could just SEE a better, clearer picture of you so that I could be 100% sure that you're just being a self-defeating irrational jerk..

 

It's one of the places where you frequently see below-average looking people, which helps you put into context what average really is. You can see the truly average and below-average people that tend to sit at home a lot in certain other settings as well--supermarkets at certain hours, hospitals, just anywhere we all have to go and can't get away from it, Wal-Mart is that type of place. Shut-ins and recluses you'd probably only see in hospitals when they're forced to go.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Maybe this is because I've never been good at philosophy, but I just don't get this. A broken cup is perfect at being a broken cup?? Wha? How does that relate to anything? Is it saying that all emotion is bad... that if you break a cup, you should "accept that it is perfect as a broken cup." What if it's your friend's cup, and you should feel guilty for handling it roughly? What if it's your grandma's heirloom and you feel sad that you just broke something that meant a lot to your family? Are you never allowed any emotion? You just have to "follow the natural flow of life." What does that even mean? What the heck is "natural flow"?

 

This is the frustrating thing for me about "positive thinking" and these sorts of philosophies-they make no sense from a practical standpoint! It just sounds like a bunch of mysticism. I am the un-romantic in that I want my "how to get self esteem" to read like stereo instructions. "Insert piece A into slot B." This whole "accept the broken cup, feel the natural flow of the universe!" is confusing and vague.

 

The simplest way I've been able to explain it to people so it at least makes sense as to why you'd want to start understanding it is that it's similar to the goal of meditation--it helps you clear your mind to get rid of negative thinking that's holding you back. If you don't feel like you're holding yourself back much with muddled, negative, or contradictory thinking, you probably don't need it.

 

Studying Zen starting around age 17 has had a significant impact on my ability to think clearly, take actions without thought holding me back in times of stress (particularly while playing sports), and to just clear out negative thinking to be happier in general. There are plenty of other ways to achieve similar results, but none quite the same--none that deconstruct the entire process of rational thinking in an attempt to allow you to control it. When my thoughts get in my way, I simply turn them off--studying Zen is what allowed me to be able to do that.

[verhrzn]

But do you believe that, on first sight, they all considered their partner to be the "hot" one at the party?

 

I asked earlier, what if a man was attracted to you (thinks you are cute, likes your body), but is just drooling over another girl at the party. He goes for her, and is rejected. Then he goes for you. You hit it off. He finds himself more and more attracted to you, and now he finds you more attractive than he ever found the "hottie".

 

Would you ever be able to accept that you weren't his first choice? Would you always feel that he settled for you?

 

Yes, actually, I do believe that. Something propelled the guy to pick out that girl over the others. Maybe it was rejection/desperation from better girls... in which case I feel sorry for the girl. Hey, maybe she's happy that anybody picked her. If it works for her, good. But I think it's pretty awful that someone is with you because the person they actually wanted wasn't available.

 

It's kind of like, if your boyfriend is dating you because his ex-girlfriend rejected him. He's still in love with her, but has decided he's never going to get her, and so has chosen you instead. How can that possibly lead to a satisfied relationship?

 

For me, personally, no, I'd never be able to accept I wasn't his first choice, because what if his first choice suddenly came around and decided she wanted him? Or what if some hot woman with a fantastic personality crossed his path? What would hold him to me? He choose me out of desperation... I wasn't what he originally wanted. I wasn't "enough." Why would he stay with someone who had to become enough, when he could go get was what ALREADY enough without him having to wait around and figure it out?

 

More importantly, if a guy isn't attracted to me initially, and is off drooling over the hot girls, why should I waste my time trying to convince him to choose me? In your scenario, I'd have to continually hang onto feelings for a guy who has initially rejected me, in hopes that he'll come around when he sees what a fantastic personality I have. That seems like a huge recipe for disaster.

 

Right! Their partner sees them as attractive. Comparatively, to society, they may be ugly, but someone still saw them as attractive! And YOU are above average in attractiveness, so SOME people will see you as attractive. That's my point. Those people (not EVERYONE in the Wal-Mart obviously, as there is no force field stopping hot people from entering Wal-Mart) are less attractive, comparatively, than you are, and someone still finds them attractive. THUS, someone still finds you attractive; and, in fact, many men who've seen pictures of you on LS have said you are reasonably attractive. (Sure, maybe not traffic-stopping hot, but that is not the point.)

 

Except nobody in real life has. The ONLY positive information I've gotten about my looks in my entire life has been this message board, and my mother. Someone finds them attractive even if society doesn't, but that is not my situation. My situation is that not a single guy in real life has found me attractive until he got to know me.

[xxoo]

For me, personally, no, I'd never be able to accept I wasn't his first choice, because what if his first choice suddenly came around and decided she wanted him? Or what if some hot woman with a fantastic personality crossed his path? What would hold him to me? He choose me out of desperation... I wasn't what he originally wanted. I wasn't "enough." Why would he stay with someone who had to become enough, when he could go get was what ALREADY enough without him having to wait around and figure it out?

 

So basically, what is normal, and is the experience of most average people, is not acceptable to you.

 

Make no mistake about it, this is why you are single.

 

He would stay with you because you have become his everything. You have become more attractive to him than the woman he was initially drooling over. Since he's fallen in love with you, he can't really see why he was so worked up about her. That's a normal experience.

 

Edited to add....you inserted the ideas about "desperation" and not initially attracted to my scenario. I said he WAS initially attracted to you, but more attracted to the "hottie".

[verhrzn]

So basically, what is normal, and is the experience of most average people, is not acceptable to you.

 

Make no mistake about it, this is why you are single.

 

He would stay with you because you have become his everything. You have become more attractive to him than the woman he was initially drooling over. Since he's fallen in love with you, he can't really see why he was so worked up about her. That's a normal experience.

 

Except I'd have to FORCE him to notice me first. He'd have to first be rejected by her, and then decide," Eh this chick isn't as hot, but I guess I have no other options." And then I'd have to "make up" for my lack of initial attractiveness with my personality.

 

If this is normal, no wonder so many people are unhappy or cheat on their partners. They didn't want their partners in the first place, they just ended up with them out of process of elimination. Isn't that "settling," the very thing you're not supposed to do?

 

And come on, the guy is NEVER gonna forget why he was so into the hot girl. He was into her because she was hot. Don't you think it's an overly romantic notion that the guy's love for his girlfriend (who he settled for because he couldn't get what he actually wanted) will somehow erase his earlier attraction?

 

Should we test this? Should I start a thread asking how many guys out there didn't notice/wasn't attracted/ignored their girlfriend at first, went for somebody else, got rejected, went back to their girlfriend, and are now in happy, satisfied relationships? I'm pretty sure ALL of the guys are gonna say there was something attractive about their girlfriend right off the bat, which is why they focused on her.

Edited February 15, 2012 by verhrzn

[somedude81]

But I think it's pretty awful that someone is with you because the person they actually wanted wasn't available.

 

More importantly, if a guy isn't attracted to me initially, and is off drooling over the hot girls, why should I waste my time trying to convince him to choose me? In your scenario, I'd have to continually hang onto feelings for a guy who has initially rejected me, in hopes that he'll come around when he sees what a fantastic personality I have. That seems like a huge recipe for disaster.

Just because you weren't a guys first choice doesn't mean he wasn't attracted to you. We can think that more than one girl at a time is hot. It also doesn't mean that he wouldn't try and make a relationship work.

 

But I do agree that there would always be the danger of him leaving for the girl he really wanted. Doesn't mean that woman wouldn't do the same thing in that situation either.

[Queen Zenobia]

It's kind of like, if your boyfriend is dating you because his ex-girlfriend rejected him. He's still in love with her, but has decided he's never going to get her, and so has chosen you instead. How can that possibly lead to a satisfied relationship?

 

I know I'm late to this party, but perhaps this is what's holding you back. If you view relationships as a tug of war in which both sides have to give exactly 50% you're going to be disappointed. You will never know how much the other person actually cares about you since you can't get inside their head.

 

There's no insurance in this relationship industry. If you choose to invest your feelings you're on the hook for 100% of the losses. This can happen whether the guy is secretly pining for other women, or whether he seems extremely into you. You just have to take some risks sometime.

[xxoo]

Except I'd have to FORCE him to notice me first. He'd have to first be rejected by her, and then decide," Eh this chick isn't as hot, but I guess I have no other options." And then I'd have to "make up" for my lack of initial attractiveness with my personality.

 

He doesn't have to notice you first! That's the point. It doesn't make you the "consolation prize" if you end up being the love of his life.

 

And of course he has other options. If he asks you out second, it doesn't make you the dregs, lol. He asks you out because he IS attracted.

 

If this is normal, no wonder so many people are unhappy or cheat on their partners. They didn't want their partners in the first place, they just ended up with them out of process of elimination. Isn't that "settling," the very thing you're not supposed to do?

 

Settling is staying with someone who you don't really want. It has nothing to do with dating a variety of people to see where the connection will develop.

 

 

And come on, the guy is NEVER gonna forget why he was so into the hot girl. He was into her because she was hot. Don't you think it's an overly romantic notion that the guy's love for his girlfriend (who he settled for because he couldn't get what he actually wanted) will somehow erase his earlier attraction?

 

Gah, he didn't settle! He dated someone who he was generally attracted to, albeit not immediately drooling over, and he fell in love. He wants to spend all his time with her, he wants to touch her, and he has the best sex of his life with her. He wants HER.

 

At that point, who cares about the other woman? (other than you )

[Mme. Chaucer]

But I do agree that there would always be the danger of him leaving for the girl he really wanted

 

A guy panting after a hot girl at a party doesn't often signify that she was "the girl he really wanted."

 

Just because he wouldn't have kicked her out of bed that night ...

[verhrzn]

He doesn't have to notice you first! That's the point. It doesn't make you the "consolation prize" if you end up being the love of his life.

And of course he has other options. If he asks you out second, it doesn't make you the dregs, lol. He asks you out because he IS attracted.

Settling is staying with someone who you don't really want. It has nothing to do with dating a variety of people to see where the connection will develop.

Gah, he didn't settle! He dated someone who he was generally attracted to, albeit not immediately drooling over, and he fell in love. He wants to spend all his time with her, he wants to touch her, and he has the best sex of his life with her. He wants HER.

 

At that point, who cares about the other woman? (other than you )

 

Kind of an overly romantic view. "Best sex of his life"? Come on. You are assuming a lot in your scenario... that even though he wasn't really attracted to the girl (not enough to pursue her except after all his other options rejected him), she somehow has SUCH an amazing personality that he suddenly becomes blind to her lack of physical attraction? Ya know, the thing that made him go," Eh, not her" originally?

 

You ARE the consolation prize if he didn't originally want you. If he's choosing you because his other options turned him down, and he's choosing you because you're what's left, then he IS settling.

 

A guy panting after a hot girl at a party doesn't often signify that she was "the girl he really wanted."

 

Just because he wouldn't have kicked her out of bed that night ...

 

The only way a guy would reject a hot woman as a girlfriend is if she had a bad personality. So, in other words, the only hope for unattractive girls like me is that all attractive women in the world are awful people.

Edited February 15, 2012 by verhrzn

[xxoo]

Kind of an overly romantic view. "Best sex of his life"? Come on. You are assuming a lot in your scenario... that even though he wasn't really attracted to the girl (not enough to pursue her except after all his other options rejected him), she somehow has SUCH an amazing personality that he suddenly becomes blind to her lack of physical attraction? Ya know, the thing that made him go," Eh, not her" originally?

.

 

Your negativity revealing itself again.

 

He didn't have to say "no" to you to say "yes" to her first. There could be 10 women he's quite attracted to in a room, and you'd never get past it if he didn't chose you first--even though he chose you over 8 others.

[Lonely Ronin]

And come on, the guy is NEVER gonna forget why he was so into the hot girl. He was into her because she was hot. Don't you think it's an overly romantic notion that the guy's love for his girlfriend (who he settled for because he couldn't get what he actually wanted) will somehow erase his earlier attraction?

 

Come on V, do you have any idea how abnormal this sounds? Hot is not everything, Hot might get your foot in the door. It might buy you a 30 minute conversation, it doesn't guarantee a happy long lasting relationship. You make it sound like if the guy thinks your smoking hot he will stay with you forever, and that's far from the truth. I have dated several "hot" women over the years, and I have rejected several, because of various personality flaws or incompatibilities.

 

And Yes, Love can cover up a lot of physical and personalty flaws........

[Negative Nancy]

Yes, actually, I do believe that. Something propelled the guy to pick out that girl over the others. Maybe it was rejection/desperation from better girls... in which case I feel sorry for the girl. Hey, maybe she's happy that anybody picked her. If it works for her, good. But I think it's pretty awful that someone is with you because the person they actually wanted wasn't available.

 

It's kind of like, if your boyfriend is dating you because his ex-girlfriend rejected him. He's still in love with her, but has decided he's never going to get her, and so has chosen you instead. How can that possibly lead to a satisfied relationship?

 

For me, personally, no, I'd never be able to accept I wasn't his first choice, because what if his first choice suddenly came around and decided she wanted him? Or what if some hot woman with a fantastic personality crossed his path? What would hold him to me? He choose me out of desperation... I wasn't what he originally wanted. I wasn't "enough." Why would he stay with someone who had to become enough, when he could go get was what ALREADY enough without him having to wait around and figure it out?

 

More importantly, if a guy isn't attracted to me initially, and is off drooling over the hot girls, why should I waste my time trying to convince him to choose me? In your scenario, I'd have to continually hang onto feelings for a guy who has initially rejected me, in hopes that he'll come around when he sees what a fantastic personality I have. That seems like a huge recipe for disaster.

 

This is exactly my opinion as well and I totally understand why this is bothering you. Nobody wants to feel like the 2nd best choice and the risk of being dumped or cheated on in case his real first choice suddenly wants him is real and there. Men even cheat on models etc. so of course the risk is even higher if you're not his first choice.

[verhrzn]

Your negativity revealing itself again.

 

He didn't have to say "no" to you to say "yes" to her first. There could be 10 women he's quite attracted to in a room, and you'd never get past it if he didn't chose you first--even though he chose you over 8 others.

 

Well I really don't understand why you think my attitude is so terrible. What girl wants to feel like 2nd choice? What woman doesn't love hearing her guy say she is the most beautiful woman in the world, and might be a bit hurt when he says," Oh no, there are tons of more attractive girls, but ya know, I don't have a shot with em, so I got her!"

 

If they're drooling after a hot girl, go get the hot girl and leave me alone! That way, he gets what he actually wants (a hot girlfriend) and I don't get dumped months later when a hot girl finally doesn't reject him. Everybody wins. What's the issue?

[somedude81]

Your negativity revealing itself again.

 

He didn't have to say "no" to you to say "yes" to her first. There could be 10 women he's quite attracted to in a room, and you'd never get past it if he didn't chose you first--even though he chose you over 8 others.

That's what I've been trying to say.

 

Just because a woman wasn't #1 doesn't mean that she's trash.

 

It's almost as if V is saying that if a guy doesn't get the first girl he hits on, he should just go home and not try with any other girls because none are as special as the first.