Child Abuse??

[DerangedAngel]

I was refering to you when I said that.

 

Um, ok.

 

don't make assumptions that of the children are taken from their families they will immediately be placed with super surrogate-families to compensate for all that's lacking.

 

I said what I did in hopes that the father would get custody of the children. My apologies if you feel I don't understand the process as well as you do. I might not.

 

I just hope that some members of this forum don't feel that this woman should remain silent because she "owes" the mother of the children something.

 

Cheers.

 

-Deranged

[Bobbie]

said what I did in hopes that the father would get custody of the children. My apologies if you feel I don't understand the process as well as you do. I might not.

 

I just hope that some members of this forum don't feel that this woman should remain silent because she "owes" the mother of the children something.

 

from what I read the father is already more than partially absent; why would he be the better parent?

 

Of course no one should remain silent when they are troubled, but neither should people emotionally over-react.

 

I still remember my first student nanny post, such a super little boy...I thought I was so much better than his parents because I had all day to pick holes in their parenting.

 

As a parent now, years later, I hope other people are more understanding than I used to be.

[Kizzyfur]

Wow, a lot has gone on here since I've been away.

 

Anyway, I have thought about the fact that she did give me a place to stay when I needed it. Yes, I am very grateful to her for that. HOWEVER, maybe y'all misread something in the first post. I WAS THERE AS A BABYSITTER, PERIOD. Mom would get up and get the older two boys off to school then leave the younger of the three UNATTENDED in his high chair to eat breakfast while she went back to bed. He would then wake me up (considering I slept in the livingroom at the time) and I had him for the rest of the day. Some days I was the one to get them up and off to school. Then I would have all three of them when school was out. Before me was Grammy, after me is now her "brother".

 

If her problems stem from a depression, she does an excellent job of hiding it in every other aspect of her life. If you can go out and enjoy yourself at a club, why shouldn't you be able to play with your children?

 

Yes, I do understand that a lot of parents do these things to their children as a way of discipline. If that's what she's doing then they're getting an aweful lot of discipline considering it's ALL DAY / EVERY DAY. Isn't that rather extreme for discipline? And why discipline the children by telling them "Grammy doesn't love you anymore" when they've done nothing wrong? Even if they had, this isn't something you instill into a child.

 

I am not trying to get the children taken away from both parents. As I'd said in my first post, and probably not often enough, Dad is excellent with the kids. Though at times he can be a bit hard on them. He doesn't seem to understand that since Mom doesn't make them abide by rules on a regular basis they feel they shouldn't have to with Dad either. But he plays with them, he helps them with their homework without getting frustrated if they have problems, he shows them that he loves them as often as he can. Though at the same time, he doesn't spoil them.

 

If what I have been told by some people I've talked to who have dealt with CPS cases is true, the kids would go to the next of kin able to take them in if she is found unfit until the divorce is finalized and Dad is able to take them. If someone knows otherwise, please let me know.

 

I am not exaggerating about this problem. It's not just a simple matter of "Mom's in a bad mood today, leave her alone." There is very little to no positive interaction between mother and children here, EVER. If she is in the same room with them, she is constantly yelling at them for something or other. They get no positive feedback from her if they try to do something nice for her.

 

I don't understand. Mental abuse is looked at as being no big deal. But isn't the biggest hurtle to overcome from physical abuse the mental anguish the child has to endure?? If these children were being beaten every day rather than just being ignored or yelled at, would it be more of a problem then?? And if so, why??

[Kizzyfur]

Originally posted by Bobbie

 

from what I read the father is already more than partially absent; why would he be the better parent?

 

 

Guess I'd neglected to mention that Dad has said that he hasn't changed his career to one where he'd be in town a lot more often because he can't stand being around her for too long. Their marriage was one of convenience more than anything. He had someone to take care of his house and bills and to give him children, she had someone to support her.

[capitald]

kizzyfur, if no one is getting physically abused I would let these people handle their own problems and you should focus on yourself. Maybe it has become more of a job then you are ready to deal with and you need to move on.

[Kizzyfur]

Capi,

I had asked what the difference was between physical abuse and mental abuse that made physical abuse seem so much worse. You say I should leave well enough be since the kids are not being physically hurt. Samson seems to agree with you. But could you please tell me why you view physical abuse to be so much worse than mental. As it seems to me that the biggest hurtle to overcome physical abuse is the mental anguish. Why then is it viewed to be so much worse than direct mental abuse alone?

[Kizzyfur]

Capi,

I had asked what the difference was between physical abuse and mental abuse that made physical abuse seem so much worse. You say I should leave well enough be since the kids are not being physically hurt. Samson seems to agree with you. But could you please tell me why you view physical abuse to be so much worse than mental. As it seems to me that the biggest hurtle to overcome physical abuse is the mental anguish. Why then is it viewed to be so much worse than direct mental abuse alone?

[average guy]

Just my 2 cents worth here

 

I think psycholigical abuse can be worse than physical (trust me, I've had both). Physical hurts once or twice but you actually get numb to the pain (literraly, sometimes you even just get knocked out and cxan't feel anything) but psychological really tears you apart. It destroys your self image,, stability, foundation of reality, etc. and I think can be much more devasting both longterm and in it's depth of symptoms.

 

Anyway, as to the case in hand, I have to agree that calling child services might not be the best thing to do. I would first recommend trying something else like getting the mother in therapy (or the whole family if possible! . The reason I say this is that I once worked in a daycare and we were forced by law to report what one girl told us that her parents physically abused her and her siblings. family services visisted the family and didn't do a damn thing. Next thing we knew the girl had been ostracised by her entire family and was completely ignored by them - they wouldn't even talk to her! We were all furious but family services told us not to get involeved (and to be honest there was not much we could have done besdies adopt her somehow).

 

So ther's my spare changes worth

 

Good luck

[capitald]

There you go, average guy said it as good as anyone can.

 

The reason I said there is a difference is that with physical abuse it can be proved. The children may have bruises and scratches and other injuries that can be used as evidence in a court of law. Physical abuse can also lead to death which also makes it perhaps a more serious issue.

 

On the flipside, I am not degrading the troubleling reality or the seriousness of psychological abuse. Its just something that people are going to have a harder time proving. For example, the minute you try to turn them in , the whole family may decide "to put on a show" and make themselves look like the perfect family. Who is going to look crazy if this happens? The ungrateful, family-wrecking babysitter!!!! I have seen this and variations on this theme happen in movies. In the movies however there is always a happy ending where the good guys win, however in real life things do not always play out that way. They often turn out a great deal more messy.

[TreeHugger]

Kizzyfur you sound like a fantastic level headed child advocate!!

 

In my humble opinion....when you need a hair cut, you go to a cosmetologist...when you need a brake job on your vehicle, you go to a mechanic...(bottom line: seek professional assistance for the evaluation).

 

Soooo, I support 100% you in calling your local Child Protective Services office! Allow the professionals to evaluate what is or is not abuse. This family could have a long list of calls from concerned neighbors, teachers, doctors, family members....etc.

 

Emotional abuse is one of the most harmful and life lasting trauma's a person can suffer. As noted above numerous times, Physical wounds heal...but the emotional scares last a lifetime

 

 

Each state (and county) has different laws and regulations in the placement of children with relatives after they have been detained (removed) from their parents care. I hear that the father is good guy, away at work providing for his family...correct? In California, the State of California Welfare and Institutions Code 361.2 states that the "non-offending parent" has the right to have their children placed in their care, custody and control. However, the father has the obligation to protect his children from abuse...

 

I think that the biggest point that needs to be made is that if anyone has a concern about the welfare of children, it needs to be assessed and evaluated by professionals.

 

Just my two cents...for what it is worth.

[NatDiggy]

I worked for Child Protective Services for 5 years as a social worker. (Ended up leaving to work with Adult Protective Services). At any rate, yes it's true we as social workers are overwhelmed with the cases we get. However, we go to work every day because we believe in what we do. Physical abuse is bad. And yes it's easy to see the evidence of abuse right there in front of you.

 

Emotional abuse is just as bad, if not worse. Children are impressionable when they are young. They learn to internalize a lot of emotional and physical abuse. Most kids I dealt with always wanted to stay with the abusive parent because that's all they know.

 

Most of these kids have to be in therapy to have a healthier way of life, especially mentally. Just think people, these kids grow up to be adults and exhibit the same behaviors they were taught. If the parents don't have good sense to know the difference between discipline and abuse, then someone needs to step in and let them know.

 

These are just my opinions, and experiences.

[spencer]

THE KID STRANGLED A CAT. Email the name I'll call right now!

 

first the cat, than the new baby, than your child.

 

court ordered therapy should be in order.

 

trust your instincts.

[CascadiaLady]

The trouble with abuse is often what doesn't show has longer lasting consequences than obvious bruises and broken bones. Harsh words are NEVER forgotten, seeing inappropriate actions can scar a person for life...and push that person into becoming abusers and/or victims themselves.

 

Torturing animals is not normal. In fact, some mental health professionals consider it a very dangerous sign that the person could be on the way to being an abuser or even a murderer/serial killer.

 

Yes, I would report it. Follow your conscience. CPS case load is not your problem. They are paid by their respective states (and our taxes indirectly) they are supposed to take these cases and no judge which ones are more "serious" than others.

 

Maybe "nothing" will be done with that one incidence, but if there is a report on record it is as important just in case anything happened in the future, God forbid. One of the saddest things re: cases of childhood and adolescent violence was that in some cases, several if not many people witness the aberrrant or inappropriate behavior and didn't report it because they figure it is "none of their business" or "no one is going to do anything."

[FolderWife]

Ya know, my cousin is living with a woman JUST LIKE THIS. She ignores the kids. She brings them to our uncle's house, and ignores them. They'll be destroying stuff, and she doesn't call them down. These kids are such noisy brats! The only time she ever calls them down, is when they do something to her.

 

Some people shouldn't be parents Also, she's pregnant with her third

[msrealdoll]

The father needs to divorce this woman. I don't know why he believes that she would automatically get custody of the kids-it's just not like that. If things are as bad as you say, it should be fairly easy for him to get custody, especially with your testimony.

 

Talk to the dad and try to get him to fix things. It sounds like the mom is in control right now, and that needs to change. He needs to be calling the shots. Is he not leaving her because it would be a big inconvenience for him?

 

If he loves his children, he needs to remove them from this woman's influence. His children deserve it. They will have more faith and trust in him if they can see that he is putting their well-being above his own comfort. If he doesn't do something, they may grow to resent him for it.

[Kizzyfur]

He filed for divorce last Friday. She should be receiving the papers within 7 - 10 days. He is going after custodyof the kids. I shared what information I had written down with him. He's also been getting information from the current "nanny". He says he never thought it was that bad, but then he's usually out on the road for work. He has a job offer he's considering that won't require him to go out of town. I have also informed him that I will testify for him if it goes to court.

 

I guess in a way he was staying with her for the convenience. He had someone to take care of all his sh*t for him. He's never had to do anything for himself and she kept it that way. Well, he's since sobered up (yes he drank quite a bit before) and has come to realize she's just taking him for all she can get and he can make it without her.

[moimeme]

Kizzyfur - good for you for interceding. I didn't follow up on this post for a while but I'm appalled at the 'advice' given you by some of the posters.

 

A lot of people clearly have zero idea about how easily it is to damage a child for life. I know a lot of adults who suffered similar neglect as kids. Some people NEVER get over it. It is soooooo easy for folks who somehow managed to avoid horrible situations in their youths to want to gloss over the suffering of children.

 

I'm always suspicious of people who defend the parents in these cases or who say idiotic things like 'if no one is getting physically abused I would let these people handle their own problems'; if they minimize these acts and situations in others' lives, will they minimize them in their own?????

 

You did absolutely the right thing. Those kids will be much better off in a one-parent family if they are loved and cared for than they would have been remaining with this harridan.

 

There still seems to be some sick desire in people to still think that every mother must be some sort of saint. It is not true.

 

And Capd, psychologists can examine kids and easily tell if they've been neglected or abused. They don't need broken bones and scars to have to show for their suffering.

[Samson]

Well moi, how about throwing some oil on that slippery slope that will allow the state to appoint "professional" psychologists to evaluate every whimper or moan any child has ever had about their parents?

 

BTW: It appears that in this case the state did NOTHING based on Kizzyfir's (visit? did she ever actually report her perception of "abuse?"). And BRAVO, for the boozer husband to take control. Now all wifey needs to do is produce her own witnesses (one of which seems, ironically, to be Kizzyfir!) to testify that his alcohol abuse has harmed the kids.

 

A lot of people clearly have zero idea about how easily it is to damage a child for life. I know a lot of adults who suffered similar neglect as kids. Some people NEVER get over it. It is soooooo easy for folks who somehow managed to avoid horrible situations in their youths to want to gloss over the suffering of children.

 

Apparently, an equal number of people have zero idea that state run institutions rarely support ideal conditions, or often, any better conditions than were found within the abusive homes. Certainly, "glossing over the suffering of children" (gotta love moi's inclination to wave that bloody shirt in every issue, huh) is no one's intent, but centralized government certainly doesn't have the least tainted record.

[moimeme]

Samson, you're the fan of slippery slopes: all of parenthood is called into question when one poster says that one mother is abusive; the entire state cares nothing for any children.

 

Bitterness and cynicism take their toll on objectivity, it seems. Why are you bothering to teach kids in the summer? They're poor and they'll never amount to anything anyway, so why waste your time?

 

(obviously, not my opinion but stated in the voice of cynicism and bitterness)

[Kizzyfur]

I wish "wifey" the best of luck in producing ANY witness that his alcohol abuse harmed the kids in any way. For as long as I've known them, he's been nothing but good with those kids. He's not one of those who gets irritable and/or violent when drinking. FYI, unless she was pregnant, she drank too. I do know that even her current "nanny" (who just happens to be someone she considers as a "Brother") will testify for dad rather than her. I don't think it's a good sign when even your family members and closest friends are against you.

 

Sampson, I too would most likely see it your way if it wasn't for the way the kids have become. Yes, anymore it is the "norm" for kids to grow up in neglecting homes. But at the rate these children are going in the direction they're going, that has me scared for them. I have since heard that the 3 year old is now taking to hitting his brother with fishing poles. Now this on top of the 7 year old threatening to kill mom and the 6 year old killing cats. Are these the kinds of kids we want on the streets when they're say, 17 and 16?? But because of people like you, it's the "norm". Too many people just don't care anymore as long as nothing happens to them. But let one of these kids do something illegal that could have been prevented from childhood and we're ready to throw them in jail. I personally think it's a sad sad wold. They have found that MOST inmates come from abusive/neglectful families.

 

I agree with Moi... with an attitude like yours, why ARE you bothering to teach??

 

P.S. I haven't turned it in to CPS yet. I discussed it with the father and he's turned the information in to the judge with his divorce papers.

[littleflowerpot]

okay, perhaps i've missed it but i don't see anyone talking about the kid who's strangling cats. people you are aware that extreme animal abuse is one of the first signs of a future serial killer? no one here thinks this warrants a good looking at?

 

yes, if you suspect child neglect or abuse, report it. i don't care what anybody thinks you owe this woman, it's nothing in comparison to what she owes her children. if there is nothing going on, it will probably be a matter that is investigated and then dropped.

 

no one ever wants to get involved but child abusers don't wear nametags.

[Samson]

Well based on your little experience with the kid who killed a cat, you seem to have gained supernatural knowledge about how to best preserve civilization itself.

 

Kizzy, frankly, I'm at a loss to connect teaching anyone, anything, at any time, with agreement that CPS (the state) must replace good parenting in every case of so-called emotional abuse. Good try jumping on Moi's little bandwagon, but she's getting more hyperbolic than usual. BTW:It is unlawful for me, as a teacher, to NOT REPORT child abuse. This might be a daily occurance based on the descriptions you've given for the children's behavior in this family. I suppose when you've delt with children's issues for as long as I have you can better separate the trivial from the significant.

 

Flowerpot: No doubt that had CPS become involved, the fathers drinking, however, violent free, would have been an issue. The kid killed ONE CAT. On purpose? By accident? Who knows? Should we devote our social resources to chasing down every family whose 3 year old hits others?

 

Sorry guys, but we just don't have, and will never have, enough resources to end all human misery. What resources we do have need to be allocated for REAL problems, not those based largely on circumstatial evidence. I know how painful the word "Real" must be to all the Ozians who believe centralized state control of every aspect of our lives will eventually lead us down the yellow brick road.

[moimeme]

Samson, there is a good chunk of evidence that children who abuse animals - and yes, killing 'one cat' counts - go on to become violent adults. Sorry, but this is not something to be swept under the carpet. And I'm a little tired of you characterizing everything I say as hyperbole.

[Samson]

And I'm a little tired of you characterizing everything I say as hyperbole.

 

I'll be more careful to consider your delicate sensabilities in the future.

[littleflowerpot]

i'm having a hard time seeing how strangling a cat could have been accidental, but that's just me. and for every animal that's known to have been murdered , we don't know how many more there are. even if it were just one so far, every serial killer that starts out killing animals starts out with the first one.

 

as for the drinking, if the dad is a heavy drinker, i don't care whether he's been physically violent or not, chances are there's some problems with his parenting. children of alcoholics suffer through many types of abuse besides just the physical kinds.

 

why are you so much more concerned with the parents' rights than those of the kids?