Child Abuse??

[Samson]

why are you so much more concerned with the parents' rights than those of the kids?

 

Now that's a good question, LFP.

 

Answer:

Because I am a parent.

 

Any standards you (or the state) deems to legally apply to these parents you'd better be prepared to apply to yourself.

 

What if your kid kills a lizard? What if he drops a kitten off the second floor balcony to see if it can fly? What if you mistakingly drink too much at the neighborhood Xmas party? What if your kid's just really pissed off at you for not bringing him to Disney Land and tells everyone how he's being "neglected" and "mentally abused?" Etc., etc.

 

Kids do ALL OF THESE THINGS AND MORE. If you have them, then you know this.

 

Parenting is not easy (see Cosby Controversy thread). Even after the government, the same insitution that cannot control even the most basic needs of each individual, writes a "parenting manual," few read it.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Samson

Now that's a good question, LFP.

 

Answer:

Because I am a parent.

 

Any standards you (or the state) deems to legally apply to these parents you'd better be prepared to apply to yourself.

 

What if your kid kills a lizard? What if he drops a kitten off the second floor balcony to see if it can fly? What if you mistakingly drink too much at the neighborhood Xmas party? What if your kid's just really pissed off at you for not bringing him to Disney Land and tells everyone how he's being "neglected" and "mentally abused?" Etc., etc.

 

Kids do ALL OF THESE THINGS AND MORE. If you have them, then you know this.

 

Parenting is not easy (see Cosby Controversy thread). Even after the government, the same insitution that cannot control even the most basic needs of each individual, writes a "parenting manual," few read it.

 

i'm glad you're a parent. i am also a parent. and hell yes i am prepared to apply those standards to myself as well.

 

if my kid drops a kitten off the second floor balcony, we are certainly going to visit the doctor to try to figure out what is going on. i can see that there might be a fuzzy area in this instance and it really does depend on the age of the child and the level of their maturity. if we are talking about a 3 year old that is much different than talking about a ten year old. strangling a cat (actually putting your hands around the animal's neck and choking the life out of it) is a sign of an emotionally sick child.

 

drinking too much at a neighborhood christmas party, while kinda stupid and irresponsible, is probably not the same thing as a mom or father that is consistently drunk.

 

parenting certainly is not easy and we should never expect it to be. it's also not easy to be the child of an emotionally, physically, sexually abusive, or neglectful parent either. and, yes, i would know. i also wish more people that "didn't want to get involved" had considered what was going on behind closed doors.

[Samson]

i can see that there might be a fuzzy area in this instance and it really does depend on the age of the child and the level of their maturity

 

BUT, LFP, the state sees only black and white. Fuzzy areas are left to the Judicial branch.

 

So, your ready to be hauled into court to determine whether or not you're fit to continue to be a parent based on what others (friends AND enemies) witnessed on ONE NIGHT? Or what they heard you say ONE TIME? Or what your kid did ONE DAY?

 

OK, good for you.

 

I'm gonna not put my trust in government to make these decisions unless there is very clearly well defined evidence of physical abuse or neglect.

[Kizzyfur]

Originally posted by Samson

So, your ready to be hauled into court to determine whether or not you're fit to continue to be a parent based on what others (friends AND enemies) witnessed on ONE NIGHT? Or what they heard you say ONE TIME? Or what your kid did ONE DAY?

 

Okay, I would have to go back and check to be positive, but I'm almost 100% sure I said I LIVED there for 6 friggin MONTHS. The current "nanny" has been there since January and is reporting the same things when he talks to the kids dad. Their grandmother lived there for a few YEARS and she's told me the same things. This is not a one time occurence.

 

The 6 yr old (then 5) strangled the cat cause it scratched him and p*ssed him off. Good enough reason for you Samson? I do hope none of the kids at school p*ss him off anytime soon. Or maybe they should, then I wouldn't be wondering if I should turn the situation in to CPS or let them try to work it out. Want to know what Moms reaction was to his strangling the cat?? She strangled him to show him what it was like.

 

Dad has cut down on drinking DRASTICALLY over the past couple years. He's also working on getting a job that won't require him to be out of town. So he's at least trying to get his act together.

 

This is not a case of the kids themselves "crying wolf". The 7 yr old doesn't like the way Mom treats them. But the only one he's ever talked to was Grammy. And she's not reporting anything cause she doesn't want to lose her grandbabies. Though he had threatened to kill Mom numberous times while I was there.

 

Samson, since you do teach, tell me, does it not seem odd for a child to fall asleep EVERY DAY in class? And for a first grader to be suspended for fighting?? What about a kindergartener to be disruptive in class?? Maybe these things are normal occurences.

[Samson]

Samson, since you do teach, tell me, does it not seem odd for a child to fall asleep EVERY DAY in class? And for a first grader to be suspended for fighting?? What about a kindergartener to be disruptive in class?? Maybe these things are normal occurences.

 

 

Depends on what "normal" is. Some teachers let kids sleep. Some kids sleep every day because they know they can. Yes, they are normal within the aggregate population, but these behaviors are not condoned. They (and a huge list of other infractions) result in punishment and other corrective measures.

 

Many are the result of imperfect homes, broken families, and a host of other societal problems that are not governed by state control over families.

[Fayebelle]

I'll be honest- I skipped a lot of replies b/c the thread was pretty long.

 

Sampson- you say CPS has worse cases to deal with- at what point do you feel they should be called? Once an obviously detached parent allows her cat killing child to strangle the infant next? He may not be a future serial killer but he obviously lacks some basic empathy skills probally from feeling so alone due to his mother's lack of interest.

 

Let's say you are correct and the parents aren't actually guilty of abuse. That doesn't change the fact that they are obviously ignoring their children's agressive behavior. CPS can make sure they at least receive the counceling they need and deserve.

[YellowLioness]

I was just wondering...

 

 

Where does the line between normal parenting and abuse start and stop? At what point can we call a parent's behavior "abuse?"

 

The reason I ask is that I was spanked as a kid. Had to pick out my own switch, even... I was punished with fly swatters, belts... you name it. But, my grandma, who raised me, btw, called that discipline. She was a navy wife, and didn't believe in, "time out."

 

Frankly, I agree with her.

 

I was often left to my own devices: I read ALL the time. I wrote poetry. I entertained myself.

 

That wasn't neglect. I enjoyed it. I didn't need 24 hour parenting, and I NEVER got into trouble at school.

 

I was just wondering at what point abuse starts. Sorry for the mini-rant, this is just confounding....

[Fayebelle]

What would your Grandma have done if you strangled a cat? I believe this situation is abuse by neglect.

 

What warrented a spanking at your house? If I did something that could hurt myself or another than yes I got spanked. The level of "danger" determined the level of spanking (i.e. hand vs wooden spoon). Sort of pain to prevent pain if you will.

 

If I didn't finish dinner- I didn't get desert. If I spent homework time playing- I was grounded. Punishment should fit the crime.

 

 

That's my humble opinion.

[YellowLioness]

Uh, my grandma would have BUSTED my butt. She probably would have cried for the kitty, then busted me, actually. She was pretty sensitive. I think that you're right. Neglect does go beyond not feeding your children... It also encompasses neglecting teaching them love and morality and dicipline.

 

 

Well, I was a smart a$$, so I got spanked for disrespecting my elders. I got spanked because I didn't listen, because I made a mess deliberately, for cursing, not doing what I had been asked to do, for doing something I had been warned about... ya know. Lol. Kid stuff.

 

I got grounded, too. lol. But, that didn't do much as I was able to just read.

 

I only got a spanking if I disobeyed a direct order more then two times. (Ex.

 

mawmaw: Camille, will you make up your bed for maw maw?

Me: Ohh, alright. I will.

 

(20 min. later)

mawmaw: Camille Elaine!!!! Did you make up that bed (her knowing that I haden't)

Me: Ohhhhhh crap. Ok, ok, I'm doing it now.

 

(20 more minutes, me still reading on my bed, unmade)

.................................................

 

you see the kind of stuff that i mean. that's what i got punished for. when i got it, i deserved it. Mawmaw always wanted to make sure that I did the right thing, even if it was a hard lesson for me to learn. I think that's the core of love, in a way.

[Fayebelle]

Sorry Yellow- if I was your mawmaw- that book would have been mine til your bed was made every day for a wk.

 

 

 

I also think there is an age where spanking just becomes humiliation and should cease. No sense spanking a 10yr old since they (should) already know right from wrong and there should be a better way to punish them by then.

[YellowLioness]

Ahhh well, that's just me.

 

The kid who choked the cat to death needs to get into counceling. Does he also wet the bed? That's another sign of a young serial killer. He may have mental problems outside what the parents have done to him, or not done as the case may be.

 

Anyway, the kids may not be abused, but if the parents can't deal with a child's mental problems, then they can be signed over to the state if CPS deems it necessary.

[Samson]

Agreed it is a long thread, but an extremely important one that get at the heart of how family and government business is separated in our society.

 

Therefore I'll recap: Kizzyfur need a place to stay. Evilmom, in an apparent moment of terrible weakness, let her stay at the family home where she probably though Kizzyfur would feel obligation to act as a "nanny," whilst Evilmom tortured Bozzydad, thus:

 

they will never see the kids again if Dad doesn't change his ways, reconsile his differences, and stay with her. This is the only reason the divorce hasn't already been started. He is so affraid of losing his kids forever. She never even wanted them to begin with, but will use them to get her way.

 

This is the context of Kizzyfur's little venture into the reality show that each of ourlives could be, and she's concluded that

 

The kids are healthy. Never physically abused in any way and always fed.

 

But wonders if:

this enough to turn her into Child Protective Services?

 

Kizzyfur eventually decides the answer is "no."

 

I have simply agreed with this decision based on the facts Kizzyfur presented. Unless there is acute or chronic abuse/neglect that causes physical harm, then state run agencies should not be burdened because BELIEVE IT OR NOT THEY ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH REAL ACUTE AND CHRONIC PHYSICAL ABUSE PROBLEMS WITH WHICH TO DEAL.

 

Now BEWARE, Faybelle, Yellowlioness, and LittleFlowerpot: There are many well-meaning, but less restrained Kizzyfurs out there, and they are watching you. One day, when a CPS officer appears on your doorstep (unannounced, usually around dinner) and demands to inspect your children for signs of physical abuse (denying him this will only result in the immediate forceable removal of the child from the home), and then he interviews the children to determine if they feel "neglected," You will first feel completely numb from shock, then you will feel a warmth of feeling you've never experienced. It will not be love for "Kizzyfur."

 

In fact it will grow to a white hot hatred for many people who you've been closest.

 

But you'll never know why the state decided to show up at your door: Your accuser will remain anonomous. You'll just have to suspect everyone you know. The witchhunt will have just begun. You will receive (if you request it) a complete report from the state documenting everything the investigator found and why he decided to either remove your children from your home, or leave them (it is up to this one guy's opinion). You will read this report again and again for the clue that will allow you to find whoever decided that you were an unfit parent (of course, the state has, wisely, expunged this information because it doen't want you to do anything rash).

 

So, before we begin this process (instead of calling the school to talk to the teacher, or counsellor, of calling the SPCA or the multitude of social servives designed to assist families with parenting), let's be DAMN SURE that what we are doing should be done: The kids ARE being abused to the extent that they are being SERIOUSLY INJURED.

[YellowLioness]

(Faye... my mawmaw busted my butt for that one. lol. I rarely got grounded. Mawmaw preferred an immediate approach to my misbehaving.)

 

Samson, my mom is a teacher, too. I know it's rough to manage a classroom full of fourth graders (what she teaches) when you can't do anything to them. Mom and I have talked about the whole reporting child abuse thing, but it's like she says, "you never know. parents have bad days, too."

I know she had a few when I was growing up. Spare the rod and spoil the child was her motto.

 

In her experience, parents dont like disciplining their children, and like it less when other people attempt to. This is also for Kizzyfur.

Unless that kid comes to school with bruises and cuts, or has VERY severe emotional problems, she won't make a move.

 

In fact, I don't think she's ever had to say anything.

[Kizzyfur]

For those of you who might still be interested in what's going on with these kids...

 

Dad came home Monday. Apparently Mom and Dad got into another fight and Mom walked out Tuesday without telling anyone where she was going nor whether or not she'd be back. I'm thinking someone talked her into leaving him with the kids hoping he'll realize he can't do it without her.

 

She had received the divorce papers about a month ago and still hasn't sent back a response. I'm not sure how long she has to do so before it can be moved on as more or less uncontested.

 

Anyway, that's what's going on to date. If anyone's interested I will keep you posted as I get information.