Boundary setting question

[turnera]

How can revealing the truth ever be characterized as "revenge"? The OP isn't responsible for how the sensei reacts, or doesn't react, to the truth.

Because, unless OP is trying to stop the affair, and unless sensei has the power to separate the two, it's none of sensei's business what his students did - therefore, there is no POINT to telling sensei other than to smear or hurt either his wife or OM. That's revenge.

[turnera]

That's the concern I had with her written words too... It was all about HER! And her poor feelings! Pity party = please feel sorry for me!

 

Nothing about who she harmed - nothing in owning it as her responsibility to FIX it for YOU! Nothing remorseful to me... Only looks like she was sorry she got caught.

 

Just saying!

True, but also very very common for someone in affair fog. It takes a while to start seeing what they really did and stop being all about themselves.

After all, she has just spent the whole time while cheating being all about her. It doesn't just shut off overnight.

[2sunny]

True, but also very very common for someone in affair fog. It takes a while to start seeing what they really did and stop being all about themselves.

After all, she has just spent the whole time while cheating being all about her. It doesn't just shut off overnight.

 

Theres no way for you to convince me that there's anything right about the emails she sent him. And just that she emailed - instead of having a face to face conversation shows her method of avoiding too!

 

When a M is top priority - you don't fricking email! You talk! You look your spouse in the eyes and apologize and beg for forgiveness - and state that you will DO anything to earn trust back.

 

And you certainly don't use I in sentences that many times. It screams narcissistic behavior.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Because, unless OP is trying to stop the affair, and unless sensei has the power to separate the two, it's none of sensei's business what his students did - therefore, there is no POINT to telling sensei other than to smear or hurt either his wife or OM. That's revenge.

 

As the owner of the studio (much like any business) he has a need to know what is happening in his/her studio (particularly concerning code of conduct & ethics associated with any MA discipline) and make a decision as to whether it is accepted behaviour and what to do.

 

Absolutely he/she should be made aware. If the sensei decides to do nothing, that is his/her prerogative.

[whichwayisup]

it's none of sensei's business what his students did

 

Actually that's not true, depending on how much and how involved the Sensei is with his students, (let's say like buddist group) then the Sensei SHOULD be told as it affects every single person in the group (if they go on meditation retreats etc, as a group too) and the Sensei is kind of like the King of them.. Father figure and go to guy to help each person work on themselves. yes at some point he should be told what's been going on.

[2sunny]

Actually that's not true, depending on how much and how involved the Sensei is with his students, (let's say like buddist group) then the Sensei SHOULD be told as it affects every single person in the group (if they go on meditation retreats etc, as a group too) and the Sensei is kind of like the King of them.. Father figure and go to guy to help each person work on themselves. yes at some point he should be told what's been going on.

 

If he was paying attention at all - he probably noticed if the both were absent from the group. Any good instructor notices the top competitors when missing.

 

It was sure to raise some questions when they missed several occasions to go have sex. Wonder what lies they told on that one?

[Ninja'sHusband]

When a M is top priority - you don't fricking email! You talk!

She couldn't have talked to me at that point. I was suuuuuper angry and in a very dark mood. I was in the computer room and she was in the bedroom watching a movie with our daughter.

 

Still, I think we will probably D. Just got off the phone with her. No sign of budging, just wanting me to "compromise". F-that. She "compromised" this whole marriage.

 

They are coming home tomorrow, that was the plan all along. Leave Thursday, come home Sunday. I monitored the OM from work the first two days.

 

We're going to therapy on Wed...the March 1st thing is probably BS...she's already made up her mind. The ways she's so smug and confident with me on the phone. It makes me sick. I'm pretty pissed atm. I told her I was going to email the landlord saying we would likely divorce and move out. She's like "okay, you do that" in a positive sing songy voice.... (landlord is wanting to know our intentions for end of lease..I've been ignoring them)

[whichwayisup]

She couldn't have talked to me at that point. I was suuuuuper angry and in a very dark mood. I was in the computer room and she was in the bedroom watching a movie with our daughter.

 

Still, I think we will probably D. Just got off the phone with her. No sign of budging, just wanting me to "compromise". F-that. She "compromised" this whole marriage.

 

They are coming home tomorrow, that was the plan all along. Leave Thursday, come home Sunday. I monitored the OM from work the first two days.

 

We're going to therapy on Wed...the March 1st thing is probably BS...she's already made up her mind. The ways she's so smug and confident with me on the phone. It makes me sick. I'm pretty pissed atm. I told her I was going to email the landlord saying we would likely divorce and move out. She's like "okay, you do that" in a positive sing songy voice.... (landlord is wanting to know our intentions for end of lease..I've been ignoring them)

 

She's pretty cocky and confident for someone who betrayed you, lied to you and had an affair. So is this her ego talking or is your wife a narcissist?

 

I feel for you and your daughter. I hope you two continue with counselling to learn to co parent together..

[Ninja'sHusband]

It sounds like she's not having all the playing cards stacked up in the deck.

 

Be careful because when she comes back she may try to tempt you into anger response and then bring you to the magistrate

Bah, she wouldn't do that...she's scared sh*tless of me. Which is retarded because I've never laid a hand on her. I think she's just biding her time, like some of you more pessimistic lot have been saying, I've got the $$ so she's holding on as long as she can. Well that and she wants a father around for my daughter.

 

I've been thinking about separation arrangements. I might force her to go live in an apartment nearby if the abandonment thing is a big issue...I still have reading to do so I'm fairly uneducated about the legal stuff. I'll divert my paycheck to the new bank account I've already created. Then I can give her an allowance to pay rent and utilities on her new place. As much as I can afford anyway, it won't be enough, but her parents can help too. She'll have to handle her car payments and MA class fees as well.

 

She can come over during the day to be with our daughter while I'm at work.

 

She's planning on going to graduate school soon, so that creates a whole 'nother ball of problems....yuck

[Ninja'sHusband]

Nevermind.

 

 

 

sdfsdfs

[Kidd]

No, it wouldn't be "revenge" to tell the truth unless the truth-teller had some moral or ethical obligation not to tell the truth.

 

Obviously that moral obligation not to tell the truth, if it exists, can't simply derive from the preference of the liar/cheater that their wrongful acts remain undisclosed.

 

Thus--assuming that the victim has no independent obligation to conceal the truth--the desire for the victim to disclose the truth in order that the cheater suffer the consequences of her bad acts is not "vengeance."

 

It is "justice."

 

The process of implying that a victim who discloses the truth with the intent to see that the perpetrator suffer the just consequences of that disclosure, is "vengeance", and somehow a deficient reason, is simply a more sophisticated form of blame-shifting.

 

That this must be the case is easily demonstrated, since the cheater/liar always has the ability to neutralize any such alleged act of "vengeance" simply by being truthful in the first place.

 

You didn't actually answer the question I asked: How is it that telling the truth, in your mind, can ever be a harmful act--if the truth teller has no obligation which prohibits disclosure? (Priest/penitent privilege for example--the priest is not allowed to disclose evil acts heard in confession.)

 

Semantics.

 

You don't exact "justice" on someone you love. Sounds like someone is bitter to me. If he loves his wife, he doesn't need to shout her flaws from the rooftops and call it "truth." And yes, his motives do matter.

[Kidd]

Ok I think I've made a decision on the sensei thing...which I should have seen earlier. I'm demanding she quit her MA at this dojo altogether or we D. So what difference does it make for our marriage? None. It does make a difference if we D though' date=' and ruins things for her afterwards. That feels like vengeance. I'm not going to tell her sensei, The OMW knows, and I can be in communication with her if we D.[/quote']

 

I like both decisions. Enforce a NC boundary. Respect the W enough not to share with the sensei. This is between you and your W. Two homeruns in two days, NH. You're catching on quickly.

[whichwayisup]

Semantics.

 

You don't exact "justice" on someone you love. Sounds like someone is bitter to me. If he loves his wife, he doesn't need to shout her flaws from the rooftops and call it "truth." And yes, his motives do matter.

 

Shouldn't he be bitter? Feel pain, hurt and betrayal? Are we reading the same thread Kidd? She's the one who messed up, cheated, lied and is smug in his face all about stuff. WTF do you expect him to do, bend over and take this crap on a stick from his wife? Consquences sometime suck.. We're talking about an adult, a wife, a mother, a GROWN woman who made some pretty selfish choices, wandered off outside of the marriage and you expect her not to suffer at all, no consquences, and he's not allowed to be pissed off?

[Ninja'sHusband]

No she's not scared of you at all. That's an act. She uses it to make you feel guilty and manipulate you. That's why it seems "retarded" to you. She's a fake. She's also not above pretending to be scared of you, or make up stories about you, to get you in trouble with the law. She probably spent the whole weekend spinning tales to your sister in law of how scared she is of your violent nature and that the only reason she cheated was because you are so cruel and violent and unloving.

 

She's a skilled martial artist, she does anything wants without regard to what you want. She's not scared of you.

 

Look how cold blooded she was when you told her you were probably getting the divorce--sing songy voice. "OK la de da fine." Someone who was scared wouldn't react that way.

 

If she has her way, she is going to get you locked up, she is going to get a restraining order, she is going to take your child away from you, she is going to get all or most of your wealth, you will be paying for her new home, child support and alimony, and she will move the OM in to the apartment you are paying for to make a nice new family of her, the OM, and your daughter. And she will lie to everyone both her relatives and your relatives about everything.

 

It's time to put your game face on.

 

I'm sorry but you can't just make calls like that with so little info about us. My statements come from about 2000000x more experience with my wife than you.

 

Her fear of my anger is one of the biggest problems in my marriage. We have had numerous counseling sessions and private discussions about it. It's in her make up, she grew up in a household that avoided conflict at all costs. She's constantly talking about how scared she is that I am going to hurt her, that it's just under the surface. I've seen the fear in her eyes when I lose my top even for a short moment or hit a door or something. When searching for why she lies, that's why. It actually makes sense. She's learned in therapy to how to not pursue me when I'm angry. Why was she emailing me those messages earlier? She knew I was pissed. I had just found out about more lies. She knew email was a safer way to communicate when I wasn't cooled down and ready to talk. I was avoiding her for the same reason.

 

It's not an act its real.

 

w/e we're probably still headed for D =\

[Trimmer]

You didn't actually answer the question I asked: How is it that telling the truth, in your mind, can ever be a harmful act--if the truth teller has no obligation which prohibits disclosure?

Actually, since semantics seem important to you, I'll point out that your question was not "how can telling the truth be harmful", but rather "how can telling the truth be revenge?", and I addressed that directly.

 

The process of implying that a victim who discloses the truth with the intent to see that the perpetrator suffer the just consequences of that disclosure, is "vengeance", and somehow a deficient reason, is simply a more sophisticated form of blame-shifting.

I didn't say that disclosure equals vengance, nor did I claim that vengeance is a "deficient reason" for disclosure. I emphasized, as I always do, that the truth-teller is best served taking an honest appraisal of his or her reasons for telling the truth - whether ethical, logistical, moral, vengence, or otherwise - and further, I spoke in support of disclosure if it would provide positive impetus for the truth-teller to heal, move forward, affect the situation in a favorable way, etc. The rest of your statement above seems to be your spin, which is fine as your opinion, but present it as your opinion, and please don't misrepresent what I said.

 

Hiding the truth of a spouse's cheating is a rationalization used by many betrayed spouses to avoid what they perceive to be the humiliation of themselves (not of their cheating spouse) caused by the public disclosure.

 

Sure go ahead they can pat themself on the back and claim they were doing it because they have pure motives but the real motive is to avoid the embarassment to themselves.

My goodness - implying that a spouse who chooses not to disclose is deceptively self-congratulatory and lacking in pure motives is simply a more sophisticated form of blame-shifting, isn't it?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Trimmer
oops - meant to leave that part out...

[Ninja'sHusband]

Lol, now I'm violent and macho. No I've never touched her. EVER. She's hit me once.

 

I've slammed a few doors, punched things. Never her. Yes I have my problems.

 

I'm thinking about telling her parents. Kidd, I'm confused, you said in your first post that it was the wisest thing you ever did (maybe you just meant the OMW?) but then later you were against me talking to the inlaws. I'm thinking now it's in keeping with Harley's doctrine of exposure. They're probably gonna find out anyway. She won't end things the *proper* way, by ending all contact. I'm thinking of telling her parents right now, I'm divorcing your daughter because she had an affair and won't give up classes. Now you are going to have to end up helping support her in a separate place, and she'll probably want you to pay for the same classes.

[Trimmer]

So in addition to pretending to be scared of you she is also blaming her lying on you as well. And you are agreeing to that? So the whole blame falls all upon you. (I think I mentioned this in an earlier post so mabe I'm not as dumb as you think!!!) And obviously she has a very good excuse for seeking the arms of another man....as a refuge from her scary husband....of course....makes an adequate narrative from her point of view.

 

I guess the restraining order will be easy for her to get then. She is legitimately scared and threatened by your history of violent behavior, you went crazy when told of the affair. You admit she fears for her safety (apparently her multiple black belt skills don't work too good? She should ask sensai for her money back). Your violent macho nature (we all know how violent and macho musicians are) makes her lie & cheat and of course it's all your fault and you admit it.

Man - getting a little sarcastic toward the OP, aren't you? Is this striking some kind of a nerve here? Isn't this a little more of that sophisticated, underhanded blame-shifting you were talking about?

[Trimmer]

Yes I would say the attitude you and kidd expressed of "I will not disclose what my cheating spouse did because I love her!" is very self-congratulatory.

Could you refresh my memory please, and quote where I expressed that?

[jnj express]

Your number one priority, and condition, is her not going to that dojo---EVER AGAIN---it is gonna trigger you, it was the cause of her disrespecting you, and destroying her own family, forever---for nothing will ever be the same---so tell anyone/everyone---its out there, let those who need to know, know.

 

You could as an inducement to her leaving the dojo---if you decide to R, is that you will participate and work with her, as a partner, if she needs one---she can teach you, and you can aid her, and anything else she needs in the way of instruction can be gotten, from training manuals, and diskettes.

 

She also cannot go to Japan, to train or compete, at this point that is a total waste of marital assets, especially, if you are headed for D., and not R.

 

There must be accountability, no matter what---she can give you all the lines, and song and dance about what she has done, and how horrible she is, and how she has hurt you, and the family----but you know what---she knew all of that, every bit of what the consequences would be, when she started, kissing other men, and spreading her legs for her lover.

 

It matters not what she says----she is out of the loop---this is all on you, and what you can handle, and what you can live with, for probably the rest of your life---also it is about what is best for the children, and she gets no input there either, as she knew she was going to wreck their lives also, and still willingly participated in her love making.

 

You have to let her know---that this is your ballgame by your rules, and she gets no input, nor say in any decisions at this point, she gave away her marital decision making rights, when she spread her legs.

[Trimmer]

I said you expressed the attitude. I didn't "quote" you.

I didn't SAY you quoted me, I asked you to quote the passage where I expressed that attitude. For someone so dependent on semantics to make your points ("It's not revenge, it's justice...") you sure do ignore syntax when it suits your purposes...

 

And you did express that attitude. Re-read what you posted. That was the point you were trying to make.

OK, I'm not afraid to stand by my words - I'll provide a link, so you can track back if you need to - just click on the little arrow icon to go back to my post.

The idea of "revenge" focuses mostly on the intent and mindset of the person telling the truth...

Nah, I'm still good with my statement, and I don't anywhere say (nor imply) that I advise against disclosure of the truth because I love my wife (which I don't) nor - just so you don't twist my meaning - does my post advocate the OP not disclose because he loves his wife, which was your assertion.

 

So no, I stand by my statements, and I object to the meaning you are projecting on them. It seems you and I won't agree; I'm fine with everyone drawing their own conclusions.

[Kidd]

She couldn't have talked to me at that point. I was suuuuuper angry and in a very dark mood. I was in the computer room and she was in the bedroom watching a movie with our daughter.

 

Still, I think we will probably D. Just got off the phone with her. No sign of budging, just wanting me to "compromise". F-that. She "compromised" this whole marriage.

 

They are coming home tomorrow, that was the plan all along. Leave Thursday, come home Sunday. I monitored the OM from work the first two days.

 

We're going to therapy on Wed...the March 1st thing is probably BS...she's already made up her mind. The ways she's so smug and confident with me on the phone. It makes me sick. I'm pretty pissed atm. I told her I was going to email the landlord saying we would likely divorce and move out. She's like "okay, you do that" in a positive sing songy voice.... (landlord is wanting to know our intentions for end of lease..I've been ignoring them)

 

You have every right to be hurt. And to be decisive about what you require to R. But if you want to R, don't expect to just play the divorce card whenever you like and think she's going to be all warm and fuzzy about it. It takes only one person to D; it takes two to R. What kind of reaction did you expect? I don't mean to lecture. Just think with your head, not with your heart. If you keep threatening to tell everyone (her sister, parents, landlord, sensei), she's going to use a defense mechanism, like a sing songy voice that says she doesn't care. I expect she knows you told the OMW and then you casually mention the landlord over the phone. Sounds like you need to decide if you want to R or not. Just my .02

[Ninja'sHusband]

I just told her father. I think he's going to call her.

 

I figured I was so close to divorce I might as well. They should know what's going on, especially if they can talk some sense into her.

 

Exposure. I listened to some Harley radio. He was like, "If you are going to separate, don't you think the family will want to know why?" That did it for me, so I called her parents. It felt like the right thing even though I was crying my eyes out when I talked to her Dad. He was very calm and supportive. I really appreciated that.

[Ninja'sHusband]

You have every right to be hurt. And to be decisive about what you require to R. But if you want to R, don't expect to just play the divorce card whenever you like and think she's going to be all warm and fuzzy about it. It takes only one person to D; it takes two to R. What kind of reaction did you expect? I don't mean to lecture. Just think with your head, not with your heart. If you keep threatening to tell everyone (her sister, parents, landlord, sensei), she's going to use a defense mechanism, like a sing songy voice that says she doesn't care. I expect she knows you told the OMW and then you casually mention the landlord over the phone. Sounds like you need to decide if you want to R or not. Just my .02

 

 

No I doubt she knows about me telling the OMW, unless she got some message from OM...but I haven't heard anything at all.

 

Sorry, I lost it...I had to do something. She was just so smug and sure in the phone conversation. It really got under my skin.

 

I didn't threaten her about talking to her parents, I never even mentioned I was thinking about it. Well I did to my counselor..she was like,"wooahh, lets talk about that next time". **** it, I'm at my wits end. I just can't live like this. I'm a wreck. Now it's done

[bosunmate]

It would probably be a good idea for him to speak with the sensei to find out whether or not she is being "passed around" at the dojo.

 

 

I doubt she is being passed around....

[Kidd]

Shouldn't he be bitter? Feel pain, hurt and betrayal? Are we reading the same thread Kidd? She's the one who messed up, cheated, lied and is smug in his face all about stuff. WTF do you expect him to do, bend over and take this crap on a stick from his wife? Consquences sometime suck.. We're talking about an adult, a wife, a mother, a GROWN woman who made some pretty selfish choices, wandered off outside of the marriage and you expect her not to suffer at all, no consquences, and he's not allowed to be pissed off?

 

He's allowed to be pissed off. But if you want to reconcile, you don't get a free pass to punish the person you love and expect them to do anything but respond in kind. I absolutely believe there are natural consequences to cheating; if the WS wants to R, they're going to need to be honest, open, transparent, own their crap, and yes, handle some vitriol. But this doesn't give the BS a free pass to punish the WS with artificial consequences until they feel they're even. I absolutely made a mistake allowing my anger to boil over. I'll be paying the natural consequences for those actions for some time to come and I will absolutely warn the OP that responding this way will get him no where, just like it did for me.