Boundary setting question

[turnera]

This is a really good time to take a look at YOUR side of the marriage and see if any of her criticism is well-founded. I'm sure there are little ways that you make her unhappy - it's human nature.

 

Go to Marriagebuilders and print out two copies of their Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires - but avoid their forums, which are toxic bad. Both of you should fill them out this weekend, and then sit down and discuss them on Sunday night. Gives you plan moving forward for making each other happy again.

 

btw, if she tries to stop you from going to MA tonight, FIGHT BACK! Please please please do NOT back down on this; it would make you look even worse than a doormat in her eyes.

Edited April 11, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Try]

I brought up the fact that she was hiding an email from OM.. Her dad got angry at first' date=' "If it was benign what is the problem?". My reply was, "It's the dishonesty, if she hides something benign, what is she going to do with something that matters?!" He had nothing to say about that. [/quote'] Time and again in this thread your father in law has shown that he has little loyalty to you and your marriage, and that he will support his daughter even when she is in the wrong. He has shown that he will always take her side on this and that he will work with his daughter behind your back when she was proceeding with the divorce. Stop having important conversations with your wife with him as a participant. I am not sure if he is hostile to the marraige, but at the very least he is not a friend of the marraige.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Try

[Ninja'sHusband]

Time and again in this thread your father in law has shown that he has little loyalty to you and your marriage, and that he will support his daughter even when she is in the wrong. He has shown that he will always take her side on this and that he will work with his daughter behind your back when she was proceeding with the divorce. Stop having important conversations with your wife with him as a participant. I am not sure if he is hostile to the marraige, but at the very least he is not a friend of the marraige.

You are right about this. The family advocate is my MIL. We've only talked with the parents on the phone once. I've had two other conversations with FIL about this stuff, he's said some helpful things during those conversations..but he's also said some things that weren't so supportive.

 

The things they said at the end of that phone conversation made it real clear where they each stand. FIL said he would not support a toxic M that wasn't improving. MIL said we needed to take our daughter into account and figure out a way to be happy together again.

[whichwayisup]

Idea - Not this weekend as it's Easter, but maybe next weekend, get your parents or her parents to take your daughter for the whole weekend. (Friday after school to Sunday mid afternoon) This way you and your wife can be alone and talk. And, also go out on a date. Have some fun together (not involving sex or anything bedroom related)..

 

Just see how things go when alone together.

[drifter777]

You are right about this. The family advocate is my MIL. We've only talked with the parents on the phone once. I've had two other conversations with FIL about this stuff, he's said some helpful things during those conversations..but he's also said some things that weren't so supportive.

 

The things they said at the end of that phone conversation made it real clear where they each stand. FIL said he would not support a toxic M that wasn't improving. MIL said we needed to take our daughter into account and figure out a way to be happy together again.

 

Are you two in MC? The details you relate about conversations with in-laws make me wonder why you are even discussing these things with them. The details you should be providing are what you are getting out of counseling. Family members are generally not trained and are never objective enough to provide worthwhile feedback to either of you. I'm not saying you can't get some good advice from family members, but it's not therapy and you both need therapy.

[beach]

Is it possible your FIL had an affair of his own?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Are you two in MC? The details you relate about conversations with in-laws make me wonder why you are even discussing these things with them. The details you should be providing are what you are getting out of counseling. Family members are generally not trained and are never objective enough to provide worthwhile feedback to either of you. I'm not saying you can't get some good advice from family members, but it's not therapy and you both need therapy.

Yeah after the conversation, that's what I told my W. We were in MC and IC (see previous posts)...for months. She won't go now, though she's said she'll go back to IC...but hasn't.

 

WhichWay, our parents all live thousands of miles away...not that we can't find some other solution. We have some friends who would probably babysit if we asked. They used to watch our daughter when we were going to MC 7 years ago.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Is it possible your FIL had an affair of his own?

 

I have no idea, that's something that's really hard to judge. They've been married for...sheesh...40+ years? I do know he was looking at Shannon Tweed on my W's laptop when he was here .

[beach]

I think her post was pointing out how little effort your wife is making in comparison to your effort.

 

I could be wrong - but that was my take from her post.

 

 

 

You can still function as Mom and Dad when your not together or even married. I'm proof of that with my exH.

 

And those consequences you state she's had. She had a miscarriage yes. But we can't change that now. And feeling sorry for her allows her to use this consequence to her advantage to gain pity (pity isn't a positive emotion). She was stalked because she cheated and lied. A consequence of her dishonesty. A criminal? Yes, she broke up the trust and stole your peace of mind - the worst thing you can do to someone you claim to love.

 

And SHE did IT ALL TO HERSELF! So stop defending her bad behavior!!! She deserves every consequence coming to her- she tried ruining your family and is mad YOU noticed! And she wants to pick and choose what she's gonna change... Ummmm, NO!

 

Get mad!!!! She DESERVES MAD!!! I don't mean violent - but I do think mad is totally appropriate for what SHE HAS DONE TO YOU AND YOUR CHILD!

 

Yet you seem to defend her! My god - there's no chance of this going well if you keep allowing her to abuse you.you keep asking for more.

 

Change the things you can! Set a firm healthy boundary - set the bar HIGH! IF she doesn't go along with ALL your requests - she still intends to cheat- if she's not already.

 

You gotta look to find out - but you haven't even called the wife or looked for info by key logger or tracking her phone- she probably has a new phone! And have you used a VAC? You can DO things- yet you won't.

 

Eyes closed - I see nothing. That denial only works for a short time.

 

Looks like she's calling all the shots... She's holding all the power- yep, I'd be damn mad too. And I'd quit telling her I love you...

 

Looks like I'm on ignore though . :-/

 

Pain is a great motivator. I don't think she's in enough pain to change herself. She's just too comfortable in that drivers seat.

 

 

Here is a formula for change - its a good read!

 

 

Here

 

 

I like this one better because it shows if the resistance is greater than the other things listed - change wont happen.

 

Formula for Change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I don't see your wife as anything other than selfish and self serving.

 

You can put a label on it if it makes you feel better (MLC) - but it appears her core being mainly thinks of herself. That's not loving behavior.

 

I really don't see much that's changed. I think she's just getting better at her lying and cover up - also her manipulation and control is still very much intact.

 

NONE of those present a good situation for this to change, heal and recover.

 

I think her affair is still ongoing. Yet this OP doesn't see it.

 

I'm not necessarily posting only for you NH - this thread is viewed by many others - so its really a blanket observation and info that's delivered here.

 

When the resistance is greater than the disatisfaction, vision and action - the change won't happen. HER resistance is HUGE! So don't expect much to change... She's not uncomfortable enough to change.

 

I'm beginning to hate that fancy "label" MLC! It's the cheaters easy way of not taking ownership of their completely bad behavior.

 

It's also an easy way for others to excuse bad behavior such as hers.

 

Stop making excuses for her - she's the one who cheated - and is most likely still cheating!

 

Yep - her behavior is that of a cheater who is still cheating or still trying to conspire a way to resume the cheating ways.

 

 

No two ways about her... But she's got you so snowed you can't see her reality.

 

I think if what you are doing isn't making change to happen then you may be best to give her some swift and harsh consequences and follow through.

 

Her Dad may have started her young with a princess entitlement but she still shows it in your marriage by the way she expects you to worship her while she's doing hurtful things to her family.

[whichwayisup]

I have no idea' date=' that's something that's really hard to judge. They've been married for...sheesh...40+ years? I do know he was looking at Shannon Tweed on my W's laptop when he was here .[/quote']

 

Who doesn't look at Shannon Tweed!! She is hot!

 

Okay, I read that you don't have the grandparents near by, so ask another family member or a friend (play date with one of her friends) for a sleepover. You two need a weekend alone .. Soon.

 

On a serious note - Things to do when you feel ready and are able to handle it. Check that P.O box. Find a way to get ahold of xOM's wife so you two can talk.

 

I'm scared for you because I don't believe that your wife is in TOTAL NC with the xOM. It's like it's on the downlow until things settle down..Not saying the A is back on or will be back on, but she misses him and is going through withdrawal, which is why NC is usually broken so many times after a dday.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Who doesn't look at Shannon Tweed!! She is hot!

 

Okay, I read that you don't have the grandparents near by, so ask another family member or a friend (play date with one of her friends) for a sleepover. You two need a weekend alone .. Soon.

 

On a serious note - Things to do when you feel ready and are able to handle it. Check that P.O box. Find a way to get ahold of xOM's wife so you two can talk.

 

I'm scared for you because I don't believe that your wife is in TOTAL NC with the xOM. It's like it's on the downlow until things settle down..Not saying the A is back on or will be back on, but she misses him and is going through withdrawal, which is why NC is usually broken so many times after a dday.

 

 

She wasn't in total NC...for a long time. They were texting, she was filling him in on our status and such. Now she is NC. It could break though at a MA conference. That's the crappy part. I dunno, he may not do that either.

I went to my first class tonight. No sign of OM.

 

Class was pretty easy actually. I kinda enjoyed it. The hours before class were the worst part as my W built it up to be this horrible experience I was going to fail out....Wow...what BS. I'm going to be juuuust fine..It's not all that hard....yet ^^

 

And I don't think OM was warned I would be there. No phone calls, no texts, no email..though could have missed that. I don't think she would have risked it. I'm a programmer...and she gives me more credit for hacking abilities than I probably deserve...well maybe I do deserve credit for potential threat. I just haven't put as much effort into it as I could.

 

I really think OMW has got a grip on OM. Dunno how long that will last. In one stretch I kept my WW from class for at about 7 weeks before she returned.

 

Maybe I should try to talk to OMW. I was hoping she'd contact me after I sent the packet...but that was...uhh... almost 2 months ago now? My fear is she really doesn't want to talk to me, and that she's angry with me. She should probably be informed that W and I are back in class. She could be reading this right now. I gave her a link to this thread.

[beach]

You don't trust your Wife. She's not doing what's necessary to earn your trust back. It's hard to say what you are planning to use as a foundation for your marriage. And she is still going to the conference? That's just a slap in the face. She's disrespecting and disregarding you as a person and a husband. If she wants to act like she's single then why is she married?

[2sunny]

Makes me sad that she is being so mean - and that you are allowing it.

 

She has got to be one of the most self entitled unremorseful wandering spouses I have seen here in years.

 

She's not been thinking of you or her daughters best interest - if she were - she'd be making a lot more effort to show loving behavior and respect instead of telling you your going to fail. That's just rude and mean!

 

Also makes me wonder what she's doing in therapy - id bet money she's not honest with her counselor. What's she working on while she's there? It's not showing evidence that she's working on being a decent person or on the marriage.

[Ninja'sHusband]

You don't trust your Wife. She's not doing what's necessary to earn your trust back. It's hard to say what you are planning to use as a foundation for your marriage. And she is still going to the conference? That's just a slap in the face. She's disrespecting and disregarding you as a person and a husband. If she wants to act like she's single then why is she married?

I think as you were typing that I was telling her that same thing simultaneously....

 

She is making me take responsibility for her A. She is continuing to put herself in situations where she could be in contact with OM. There's a *&^#ing event tomorrow... not in the same sport...but in a sister sport the OM participates in as well. They go to different dojos in that sport...but could potentially see each other at those events. I try to tell her she is damaging the M every time she does that, that she is putting her MA over her daughter's well being even. She just doesn't get it, she gets enraged that I say she has a lack of concern for daughter..but has no leg to stand on. All she can do is say she loves our daughter...and that this is about me. She can't connect that if she hurts us she hurts the family *including* our daughter. Bah...so....frustrating... At least I know OM is not at class and I will see him if he's there. This thing tomorrow is in town No consideration at all, she just pushes it all away and ignores it for her selfish purposes....

 

Baby steps baby steps .... Yeah I will hit a breaking point eventually.

 

You know all I did that started that last argument? I asked her not to be at more than two events in a month. :lmao::lmao: "Honey can you please at least spend half of the weekends in a month with the family?" The month the A started she was gone 3 weekends out of 4. Just unbelievable...What a ****ing bitch.

[Try]

I went to my first class tonight. No sign of OM.

I am curious, if he does come back, will you bow in respect to him as required due to his rank?

[beach]

Makes me sad that she is being so mean - and that you are allowing it.

 

She has got to be one of the most self entitled unremorseful wandering spouses I have seen here in years.

 

She's not been thinking of you or her daughters best interest - if she were - she'd be making a lot more effort to show loving behavior and respect instead of telling you your going to fail. That's just rude and mean!

 

Also makes me wonder what she's doing in therapy - id bet money she's not honest with her counselor. What's she working on while she's there? It's not showing evidence that she's working on being a decent person or on the marriage.

 

I think as you were typing that I was telling her that same thing simultaneously....

 

She is making me take responsibility for her A. She is continuing to put herself in situations where she could be in contact with OM. There's a *&^#ing event tomorrow... not in the same sport...but in a sister sport the OM participates in as well. They go to different dojos in that sport...but could potentially see each other at those events. I try to tell her she is damaging the M every time she does that, that she is putting her MA over her daughter's well being even. She just doesn't get it, she gets enraged that I say she has a lack of concern for daughter..but has no leg to stand on. All she can do is say she loves our daughter...and that this is about me. She can't connect that if she hurts us she hurts the family *including* our daughter. Bah...so....frustrating... At least I know OM is not at class and I will see him if he's there. This thing tomorrow is in town No consideration at all, she just pushes it all away and ignores it for her selfish purposes....

 

Baby steps baby steps .... Yeah I will hit a breaking point eventually.

 

You know all I did that started that last argument? I asked her not to be at more than two events in a month. :lmao::lmao: "Honey can you please at least spend half of the weekends in a month with the family?" The month the A started she was gone 3 weekends out of 4. Just unbelievable...What a ****ing bitch.

 

Part of the problem is you keep asking her...It shouldn't be a question but an order (one that she's willing to follow). She lost that right when she cheated. It's time for demands that have substantial boundaries that show whether she intends to repair the marriage or not. If she doesn't follow your demand then you need to tell her exactly what you intend to do at that point.

 

Similar to giving a child a consequence for bad behavior, stealing or lying. Without any consequence they will just do it again. But more than that she doesn't seem to have a conscience about her bad behavior. She just wants to do more of whatever she wants and have you take it. That's not right.

 

She's still calling the shots because she knows you're not giving consequences. You've trained her that she can treat you poorly and you stay no matter what.

 

I'm sad for you too.

Edited April 7, 2012 by beach

[Trimmer]

It does piss me off that she still puts no effort into anything...it's up to me to suck it up and forgive the A' date=' fix the M.[/quote']

I've skimmed the latest updates in this thread, and here's my thought, which builds on your statements above: it seems that the only things she is "doing" to help the marriage recover are passive (like she "won't make any effort" to contact the OM.) She isn't doing anything active towards recovery.

 

So am I correct that mostly, what she is bringing to the table to offer by way of recovery are just things that she can do through inaction?

 

Is she doing anything active, taking any initiative, any affirmative, assertive action towards building the marriage or making it better?

 

Her feeling bad is passive - it is not forward progress toward recovery.

Her "not making an effort" to see the OM is passive - it is not forward progress toward recovery.

 

They are an awareness of the damaged situation that your marriage is in, and an apparent halt to any more overt damage, and this recognition is a necessary element of eventual recovery, but they are not active, forward progress.

 

I point these things out, not because I want to crap on your situation, but because my wife had an affair during our marriage. She withdrew from the affair but handled our "recovery" through only passive adjustments on her part. And like you, I felt like it was my problem to recover while she just waited me out.

 

After a time, we seemed to be fine. We were having a good life, having fun - we even had a couple kids - but eventually, just about 10 years down the road, things came apart again, and I realized that we had never actively moved ourselves in a direction of recovery. We just kinda waited it out until it all became a dull memory, but the damage and the pathological patterns in our marriage had never been repaired. More to the point, she never took any affirmiative, active, assertive actions to prove herself to me, nor to improve herself for her own sake, and I never asked or expected her to do so.

 

We let ourselves sweep it all under the rug, because it seemed like things were "improving." When you are being beaten over the head with a bat, it just feels so damn good when it stops...

 

So even having been through all that, I don't know what to tell you to do, exactly. I have great empathy for you and your situation with your daughter, as I have two kids who I love with all my soul, who we put through this. It just seems to me like she is exhibiting only passive behaviors at best, and you are convinced that is "progress". And I know how it seems to feel so good when the beating stops, but...

Edited April 7, 2012 by Trimmer

[ISurvived]

Baby steps baby steps .... Yeah I will hit a breaking point eventually.

 

With all due respect NH, if you haven't reached the breaking point yet, you never will.

 

Your WW continued inaction and blatant disregard for you and DD feelings and well being screams selfishness and completely self-centered.

 

I and my FWW followed the MB plan. It only works if BOTH spouses are doing the work.

 

2 x 4 here. YOU are doing harm to your marriage, you and your DD by being such a little b**ch and allowing your WW to continue with this behavior. Can you control her, no, but you can damn sure control what you and your DD are exposed to. Do you really think you are not harming your daughter by keeping her in this situation? You continue to make excuses for your WW behavior.

 

It's time to nut up, draw a line in the sand and protect your DD and yourself.

 

My FWW and I are nicely R'd. It took BOTH of us working hard and doing the heavy lifting. Yeah, for the first month or so it was me, after that it was both of us.

 

You have to take a stand. Her OM was a co-worker. I demanded she quit her job. She walked away from a $75k annual salary job. Your FWW doesn't stop any of her behaviors because you don't demand and she has no consequences. You are continuing to enable her behavior.

 

I know some of my post is a little hard for you to read, the ugly truth most of the time is.

[beach]

What was she DOING over the weekend to take action to repair your marriage?

[whichwayisup]

I think as you were typing that I was telling her that same thing simultaneously....

 

She is making me take responsibility for her A. She is continuing to put herself in situations where she could be in contact with OM. There's a *&^#ing event tomorrow... not in the same sport...but in a sister sport the OM participates in as well. They go to different dojos in that sport...but could potentially see each other at those events. I try to tell her she is damaging the M every time she does that, that she is putting her MA over her daughter's well being even. She just doesn't get it, she gets enraged that I say she has a lack of concern for daughter..but has no leg to stand on. All she can do is say she loves our daughter...and that this is about me. She can't connect that if she hurts us she hurts the family *including* our daughter. Bah...so....frustrating... At least I know OM is not at class and I will see him if he's there. This thing tomorrow is in town No consideration at all, she just pushes it all away and ignores it for her selfish purposes....

 

Baby steps baby steps .... Yeah I will hit a breaking point eventually.

 

You know all I did that started that last argument? I asked her not to be at more than two events in a month. :lmao::lmao: "Honey can you please at least spend half of the weekends in a month with the family?" The month the A started she was gone 3 weekends out of 4. Just unbelievable...What a ****ing bitch.

 

bolded part..something to talk about in marriage counselling. With or without your wife there.

 

Your marriage is doomed, your efforts are wasted as long as she is blaming you for HER choice in having the affair. She's selfish and not suffered consquences (she has in other ways but not in way that affects her 'life' with you) and until YOU stand up to her and put your foot down, enough is enough already with her attitude and selfishness, she can stay and work with you to fix things, own her choices, the affair and her behaviour, or she can leave the house. The consquences she needs to feel and face are ones YOU impliment, not ones that she brought on herself. Hope this makes sense.

[Ninja'sHusband]

What was she DOING over the weekend to take action to repair your marriage?

 

Well...she told me OM wasn't at the conference...without me having to ask. Lame huh...but that's a step up from me having to ask and her flying into a rage and trying to commit suicide the next day

 

On Sat I went to see the last part of the tournament...there wasn't a set ending time though, and as daughter and I were walking to the event from the car, we met W walking to the parking lot with an overweight guy from the dojo. She spent most of the rest of the weekend focused on Easter. We got along well and ate a lot. I had made a big fuss before she went to the event on Sat, but didn't push it anymore afterwards. I don't think OM was there. I'm not really worried about the dude she was walking with if that freaks any of you out.

 

Sorry, still not worth hurting my daughter by kicking W out. We've kinda reached a truce position. I think OM is chained at home right now. Things may go nuts again if he comes out. The tournaments and such are gonna be the roughest things, but I don't think OM is going to be at any of them. He's pretty absent right now, and if he comes back to class, I'll know since I'm attending.

 

W still isn't really doing anything active to fix things..more passive improvements...but like I said, #1 is my daughter and not traumatizing her with a sudden family break up. That's about the most damaging thing you can do to a kid. I don't think our M would survive it either, I wouldn't want it to, there'd be nothing left for me to salvage, the damage would be done.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[melenkurion]

I went to my first class tonight. No sign of OM.

 

Class was pretty easy actually. I kinda enjoyed it. The hours before class were the worst part as my W built it up to be this horrible experience I was going to fail out....Wow...what BS. I'm going to be juuuust fine..It's not all that hard....yet ^^

 

 

Of all things, this little detail bothers me. It seems to be an indicator of your wife's attitude all along. She's not encouraged you ("It'll be hard but I believe in you"), she's actually belittled you, set you up to fail, subtly driving home a message that she is so much better than you.

[ISurvived]

W still isn't really doing anything active to fix things..more passive improvements...but like I said, #1 is my daughter and not traumatizing her with a sudden family break up. That's about the most damaging thing you can do to a kid. I don't think our M would survive it either, I wouldn't want it to, there'd be nothing left for me to salvage, the damage would be done.

 

You don't see the damage you are doing to your DD right now. Wait until a few years down the road. Letting your DD see her parents, in what is described by you, a dysfunctional marriage is more harmful than you know. Think about what messages it sends. You can save the "we protect her from that" speech. Kids are way smarter than you imagine. They are also more resilient than we give them credit for.

 

 

I'm not saying to kick your WW out, but she has to become an active participant in R or there is no R.

 

Quit using your DD as your excuse not to man up and do what is right. Protect you DD at all cost, even from your WW. That is your place as her father.

[Owl]

Whoops, wrong thread...sorry!

[Ninja'sHusband]

You don't see the damage you are doing to your DD right now. Wait until a few years down the road. Letting your DD see her parents, in what is described by you, a dysfunctional marriage is more harmful than you know. Think about what messages it sends. You can save the "we protect her from that" speech. Kids are way smarter than you imagine. They are also more resilient than we give them credit for.

 

 

I'm not saying to kick your WW out, but she has to become an active participant in R or there is no R.

 

Quit using your DD as your excuse not to man up and do what is right. Protect you DD at all cost, even from your WW. That is your place as her father.

 

 

DD = daughter..but what is the 2nd D?