Boundary setting question

[2sunny]

The boundaries you're setting are supposed to be for you.

 

That's where you get it all backwards- because you TRY to impose boundaries on her - of which you may as well be talking to the wall because she's not gonna do it your way.

 

She may appease you on some small levels (of which are designed to manipulate and control you) - but mostly they are designed that way to make you be quiet and do nothing further.

 

When you take action and have a voice and speak your truth - THAT is when things will change. She has a way of keeping you in your quiet little corner doing nothing that significantly changes things.

 

It's called fear and denial. It sucks! No one should live that way.

 

Meanwhile she's plotting and planning her new future... Of which you may or may not be in her long term plan.

 

Since she's done the cheating and doesn't show signs of Channing in order to not cheat I totally suggest you tell her you have a new boundary since she's not doing everything to fix this:

 

Open up the marriage by tell her you're changing your agreement. It's just that you are being honest ahead of time.

 

Then go out on a few dates.

 

I never suggest that - but I think it's appropriate here given the lousy circumstances from her end.

Edited April 25, 2012 by 2sunny

[Bellechica]

NH, one thing that coming to LS has helped me with is recognizing my boundary issues. My H has never set boundaries and it wasn't his place to do so. Your W needs to realize for herself that she may send off vibes in how she acts and looks at men. Please tell her from one WW to another that it is up to her to constantly be cognizant of her behavior around men. We think these A just "happen" or I'm not that type of woman, but that kind of thinking got me into my situation, and I am constantly aware that if I don't have clear boundaries for myself, an A could "happen" again.

[Wanderer25]

Sorry for the t/j NH.

 

 

Bella, please read November-rain's older submissions. especially this thread

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/227790-torn-between-lover-husband

 

You might identify a lot with her logic and arguments when she was in the affair. She was caught when she went to the OM to break it off. You still have a decent chance of repairing the marriage.

[turnera]

I'm trying to let her get through her MLC crap. She's doing it. Getting into this program by God's grace is a massive boon. Her self-esteem is soaring. I'm actually REALLY relieved.

None of this will matter unless she is getting intensive therapy. Is she?

 

All this school nonsense is a BAND-AID.

[turnera]

She's at school to LEARN, number one, not to hang out and make tons of new friends like a teenager.

See? School is just ONE MORE ego boost for her.

 

No fixing going on here - at all.

 

Quit using MLC as an excuse. All that means is that she hates herself and looks for (temporary) feel-goods. What will she use when the school no longer feeds her ego? The new job? The new promotion?

 

No fixing going on.

[turnera]

Those conversations don't go well because she intends to do whatever she wants no matter how you feel. She always gets mad when you ask her to be a decent person - of which she bucks the request no matter how small it seems.

And then you back off.

 

Because you're afraid she will leave you.

 

And she knows it.

 

And that's why she DOES it. Because she knows you're weak and she knows it works.

 

What are YOU doing to improve your own self esteem so you can get to a point where you'll say 'you know what? I deserve better than to be your 3rd, 5th, 10th choice. See ya'?

[turnera]

The program she's in is female dominated' date=' about 75%.[/quote']

As you know, it only takes ONE man.

[jwi71]

Yeah, we've had a lot of these discussions... Unfortunately they don't go that well. She seems to think she's fine in general...just screwed up with OM. =\ I think I'm gonna buy that book "Not Just Friends" that everyone keeps raving about. Maybe I can get her to read it. She read a little bit of stuff at my request. Took a friggin crisis but she did it.

 

 

She's got it that I don't want her talking about our M to other guys at least. I don't think she 100% agrees but seems resigned to it. I've made it really clear that one of the things I hated most was to find she had brought up problems about me with OM before she told me. She's agreed to work on that, and has shown some improvement.

 

It's a massive red flag of course that your boundary discussions "don't go well".

It is, at a minimum, indicative of a serious disconnect in your M if, as H and W, you do not agree on boundaries. It's a fundamental problem in your, and I would say all, M.

 

Her new school (academic) is also alarming. But honestly, I'm not gonna with the why's. You've totally shut LS down.

 

I'm not sure my participation, or anyone's really, is worth it.

You have clearly articulated your plan (to wait) and your goal (keep the family together). You have also clearly articulated your reasoning. As has been repeated almost ad nauseam, your actions are counter to what LS posters have lived, known and experienced. And as sad and frustrating as it is, these are your decisions to make. I hope you end up where you want to be as it seems what you want and what your W does, well, they don't align terribly well.

 

I hope your plan works.

 

Good luck.

[Bellechica]

I see no reason to rush things NH. I think your W is still not thinking clearly but I think you can read through November Rain's previous thread in which she was torn between her lover and H and my own thread that WWs don't think clearly. Perhaps she is still coming down from the A. I don't think it was an exit A or she would have left you. Take it day by day NH. It's your M and life......

[Wanderer25]

I think one of the reasons(not the only) that she did not leave him because she has no other options.

[2sunny]

There is a difference in being patient for things to change by seeing effort to make sure she shows she's willing to consider how you must feel and fixing her errors.

 

But the difference is you are being PASSIVE by waiting for others to do something instead of yourself.

 

Big difference between patient and passive... Your passive nature isn't helping you to be happy. In fact, you seem more worried that your wife be happy than yourself. Better balance is also something to work towards.

[The Blue Knight]

I see no reason to rush things NH. I think your W is still not thinking clearly but I think you can read through November Rain's previous thread in which she was torn between her lover and H and my own thread that WWs don't think clearly. Perhaps she is still coming down from the A. I don't think it was an exit A or she would have left you. Take it day by day NH. It's your M and life......

Excuse the TJ here NH, Belle, just happy to see you stuck around after the lockdown on your thread. I tried to PM you about it, but for whatever reason I can't reach you that way.

[Bellechica]

TBK...I asked it to be shut down. It was TMI and I was spiraling out of control. I feel like I've finally been let free by the OM. I think he finally gets that I'm not leaving my H. I can't pm until 30 days which is tomorrow or the next.

 

Sorry to T/J.....NH, in some ways you seem like my H although you have more patience than anyone I've seen. I can also see you are able to take criticism and be your own person. I see strength in that......

[drifter777]

I see no reason to rush things NH. I think your W is still not thinking clearly but I think you can read through November Rain's previous thread in which she was torn between her lover and H and my own thread that WWs don't think clearly. Perhaps she is still coming down from the A. I don't think it was an exit A or she would have left you. Take it day by day NH. It's your M and life......

 

Rush things?? You can't be serious! Go back and read some of this thread before you offer this kind of advice.

[Bellechica]

Drifter, I have followed all of NHs thread. "Time" and "rush" are different to each of us. Yes, it's frustrating to see NH put so much into his M when his W should be making an effort, but I think it's taking his W longer to get out of her "fog" because she is consistently exposed to triggers.

[SomedayDig]

 

Oh....brother....

[turnera]

Something that betrayeds often forget is that the wayward/former wayward is still a human being. Still has thoughts, likes/dislikes, shame, emotions. Sure, they went astray along the way, but they (most) don't literally turn into some sort of science fiction monster. It's easy to consider them thus, but is that really helpful to your agenda? Remembering that they really are still just human beings can go a long way toward understanding what needs to be done.

[SomedayDig]

^^ Truth.

 

And that's from a BS!

[2sunny]

I think one of the reasons(not the only) that she did not leave him because she has no other options.

 

Ahhhhh, but now she is getting more options lined up.

 

So far in the M she depends on NH to provide at least money and a blind eye... Wonder what happens when she no longer has all that.

 

She's getting her ducks lined up to be capable of earning her own money. Plotting - planning... For a better future. Hmmm

[BetrayedH]

What is the principle that you think is being upheld? Why is the identified principle (assuming you identify it) "more principled" then honesty and transparency in a marital relationship?

 

He is upholding his marital vows. He brings honor to himself in doing so. This wasn't just some transaction where I stay in this as long as it benefits me. Marriage vows aren't spoken with any condition except until death. It may be unfair to him, it may well be unhealthy for him, it may be unwise. But he doesn't deserve insults. That's all I am saying. He is acting with honor and integrity toward his marital vows and his daughter even though it pains him to do so. Disagree if you like but I take exception to those that are disrespectful. It's crap and even if it done to try to shake him out of his fog, it clearly is not working and is now simply rude.

[BetrayedH]

I don't think in such a situation it makes a lot of sense to talk about what his wife needs. I think it makes more sense to advise the betrayed spouse to figure out what actions they are going to take in various alternatives without making the assumption that they are going to influence the wayward spouse. Just accept the wayward spouse's behavior for what it is with no illusion of any power to change it.

 

This is a world of free will. None of us really can change another's behavior short of coercion.

 

So I think what the BS needs to do, with an uncooperative WS, is to decide how they want to live and what they need to do without making an assumption that the WS's current behavior is going to change.

 

NH has a wayward spouse who is unwilling to cut off all contact with OM and wants to continue going to karate classes where he might be. She has said this and she has been very clear about it. There is a chance she is secretly continuing the affair or wants to try to do so.

 

She is absolutely entitled to act as she pleases. Nothing she is doing is illegal as far as we know. That is the frustration faced by the BS in this situation. These are two people who happen to be married and connected by years of history together, and by a mutual child, but who want totally different things and are moving in totally different directions in their lives.

 

I am not sure why so much effort needs to be put into pretending otherwise. No one really even needs a reason to get divorced anymore.

 

It is fine to remain married to a WS but at a certain point there has to be a recognition that reconciliation can't work unless both people are fully invested in it.

 

Frankly I think I agree with almost all of this. I think there is plenty of empirical data to show that some WS do change their spots and it can be a result of the position(s) taken by the BS. But by and large, I don't think we have much opportunity to change others. We can just control how we react. My suggestion about an ultimatum is really that NH does need to determine and set his boundary. I think he agrees that continued contact is unsustainable. Ithink he just needs to communicate a definitive if/then statement and follow-thru once she makes her choice.

[2sunny]

Not once SHE makes HER choice...

 

Once HE makes his choice.

 

His boundary is for him.

 

 

She has made her choice by her actions - and by stating exactly what she's not willing to do. He isn't her first priority.

 

He is passive with his approach and lack of action.

 

It may be useful to effectively have a new plan of action.

 

I know it's up to him. He has choices... He can't change HER but he can change the way he participates - which effectively does affect her.

 

Any change by NH may give a new outcome.

 

Action is necessary.

[2sunny]

Doing nothing is a conscious decision to be a willing victim.

[ISurvived]

He is upholding his marital vows. He brings honor to himself in doing so. This wasn't just some transaction where I stay in this as long as it benefits me. Marriage vows aren't spoken with any condition except until death. It may be unfair to him, it may well be unhealthy for him, it may be unwise. But he doesn't deserve insults. That's all I am saying. He is acting with honor and integrity toward his marital vows and his daughter even though it pains him to do so. Disagree if you like but I take exception to those that are disrespectful. It's crap and even if it done to try to shake him out of his fog, it clearly is not working and is now simply rude.

 

I stayed and fought for my marriage through two D-Days. There is a huge difference in my story, however. After D-Day 2 my wife was all in to R. She was remorseful, transparent, accountable. We went to MC and she did all the heavy lifting required. That is much different than what NH is going through.

 

Let us not forget what Jesus said concerning divorce:

 

Matthew 19:8-9

English Standard Version (ESV)

8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”[a]

 

So divorce is allowed in NH circumstance.

 

I am all for honoring the marriage vows. Sooner or later the offending spouse has to be for honoring them also.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Well I hit my breaking point. I exposed to sensei and more dojo members just now.

 

Timetravel back about 18 hours:

 

We are trying to move to a new place soon and time is running out. She mentioned getting a nicer place and letting her parents help us out with the added expense. I calmly reminded her that her father said he would not support a relationship that was not improving. If she is going to deliberately put herself in places where OM will be, we will not improve. I put my foot down that we needed to move somewhere cheaper, not more expensive. She basically ignored any comments about quitting class, kept telling me out daughter is the most important thing.

 

Fun fact, my #1 anger trigger is *being ignored* Anyway I survived last night without getting crazy.

 

This morning though as I was about to leave I said, "If you haven't watched that video I sent you I'd appreciate it if you did." No response at all. So I go, "Do you plan on watching the video?" She basically started talking about priorities and her school. I told her our M is the #1 priority waaayyy above EVERYTHING else. If she wants to focus on our daughter she needs to fix our M first so we have a good environment for her. I need to not go insane and lose my job from inability to function at work. We talked for a while, I called her again from work to she if she had watched the video. She had..but she recognized it as the same stuff I keep telling her and didn't seem to care. She was really clear that she is MUCH happier now that she is in school yes, but she is still NOT quitting her MA. She seems to think that me being there is this perfect fix even though I keep telling her me or her being around the man she Fed for 4 months is NOT a good thing.

 

Anyway, her tone was so confident and final that I resolved to expose right then and there. I can't even handle the *thought* of OM coming back anymore. Add her confident calm rugsweeping and I just go into fits of rage. So F- it. I exposed. I CC'ed her and various other dojo people, and OM. I called her to tell her I exposed. She was actually calm. Who knows what sensei will do? Before she said it would "not be good". Now she thinks he probably won't do anything. Whatever. I made it clear this M is NOT going to work with her being around OM at all. She's going to call her parents, probably play an angry phone message I left...oops.... But she'll tell them the latest, maybe...who knows what distortions\critical omissions she'll put in? She's not decided on D right now. She's pretty dependent on me...I dunno. From here the ball is out of my court. What will sensei do? What will she do? Time will tell. I feel better for my part. phew....

 

Sorry Kidd...hehe that was all I could take I guess....I tried to be patient. I knew I had limits