Boundary setting question

[2sunny]

I wrote a draft last night and sent it to WW. The most painful book I've ever read was "Good Divorce". I also read some of "Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way" and I agree with some of what they say. It's been a long slow conscious and subconscious process but I finally came up with the best explanation I could. Yes' date=' this is the part I have dreaded most of all, the ultimate pain. I can't believe I finished that letter last night. I hope reading it rips my WW's heart out and makes her see what is happening. I can't imagine anything worse than that letter.[/quote']

 

Did she respond? And it's hard to imagine that you two email and text instead of having honest face to face conversations. Her body language would tell you more than her words.

 

Read up on body language...

 

Idconsider sending a PI to her class tonight to "see" what kind of damage control she's doing while she's there... The ones who approach her will be the people who support her bad behavior.

 

It would Los be useful to see what kind of body language she uses while she's there... Cocky? Remorseful? Embarrassed? Angry? Defensive? It would be telling... Although I don't know if it's even worth the money and energy spent to find out... She doesn't act remorseful to you... And that's really all that matters.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Thanks Trimmer, that was a very good post. I'm sorry for what you went through

 

I took the questions you listed in the old 2005 thread and sent them to my W.

 

 

 

 

[EDIT] Looked at the phone record. She's been talking to all her friends, including the one who claimed that my nature of "email" was the worst tragedy of all (truth worse than a dead unborn child, than the dissolution of a family. really? really?)

 

She talked with her sister for an hour. Wonder how that went. Her sister was the first person I told about the A, one week after I found out. SIL was the first person I asked if I should allow WW to go to class. Know what SIL said? "She should absolutely not see him anymore". Her own flesh and blood. It was SIL that gave me the courage to even ask that they alternate days at first.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[ISurvived]

NH, have you prepared what you will say to your daughter? Has your W discussed this with you?

 

I simply cannot fathom having that conversation with my children.

 

You must be terrified about this. What will you say?

 

Why can you not fathom that? Is it the whole honesty thing?

 

I had to have this discussion with my two sons. 14 & 11 at the time. It's difficult, but you just have to be honest without going into gory details. I just told them Mom had a boyfriend. I told them they had done nothing to cause it and we would either work it out or we would divorce.

 

Happily, we worked it out. Tough, but worth it.

[2sunny]

Thanks Trimmer, that was a very good post. I'm sorry for what you went through

 

I took the questions you listed in the old 2005 thread and sent them to my W.

 

 

 

 

[EDIT] Looked at the phone record. She's been talking to all her friends, including the one who claimed that my nature of "email" was the worst tragedy of all (truth worse than a dead unborn child, than the dissolution of a family. really? really?)

 

She talked with her sister for an hour. Wonder how that went. Her sister was the first person I told about the A, one week after I found out. SIL was the first person I asked if I should allow WW to go to class. Know what SIL said? "She should absolutely not see him anymore". Her own flesh and blood. It was SIL that gave me the courage to even ask that they alternate days at first.

 

Of course she's doing damage control.

 

Of course she's talking to them instead of who she SHOULD be talking to - YOU!

 

Ask her point blank what she's saying to them? See if she's even willing to admit to them that's she's done what you stated in your email...

 

You: did you admit to them that you had sex in their sacred space?

 

Her: __________. - its a YES or NO answer! Make sure she answers with only ONE of those answers!

 

If she's not willing to admit her wrong doings - there's no hope!

[jwi71]

NH-

 

I just noticed something...and maybe it means something. And maybe not.

 

Why do you EMAIL your WW? Why don't you talk?

I keep seeing you say you sent it to her...why aren't you two talking?

She is clearly capable of talking...at least to her friends. Are these the same people who excuse and encourage her behavior?

 

Or am I reading too much into it?

 

In any case...it just strikes me as odd that you email these things versus copy and paste into Word, print out and discuss at the dinner table....

[2sunny]

NH-

 

I just noticed something...and maybe it means something. And maybe not.

 

Why do you EMAIL your WW? Why don't you talk?

I keep seeing you say you sent it to her...why aren't you two talking?

She is clearly capable of talking...at least to her friends. Are these the same people who excuse and encourage her behavior?

 

Or am I reading too much into it?

 

In any case...it just strikes me as odd that you email these things versus copy and paste into Word, print out and discuss at the dinner table....

 

I asked the same thing.

 

It works to his wife's advantage... Allows her room for avoidance.

 

Also works to NH disadvantage as he isn't privy to her body language to "see" if her movements contradict her words or lack of.

 

When someone lies - there are always key factors that they DO that subconsciously trigger your mind to process that they are lying. It's a contradiction between what your body does as opposed to what the lips are saying.

 

Intuition comes into play. You can't get THAT from email or text. SOME of it you can get from a phone call because of voice inflection and tone and timing.

 

But nothing compares to standing in front of a person - looking them in the eye and asking an important question... Then waiting to see IF they look away, walk away corss their arms etc - or stay connected to you and use complete and open body movements that show they are open to giving their truth while looking you in the eye.

[jwi71]

I asked the same thing.

 

It works to his wife's advantage... Allows her room for avoidance.

 

Also works to NH disadvantage as he isn't privy to her body language to "see" if her movements contradict her words or lack of.

 

When someone lies - there are always key factors that they DO that subconsciously trigger your mind to process that they are lying. It's a contradiction between what your body does as opposed to what the lips are saying.

 

Intuition comes into play. You can't get THAT from email or text. SOME of it you can get from a phone call because of voice inflection and tone and timing.

 

But nothing compares to standing in front of a person - looking them in the eye and asking an important question... Then waiting to see IF they look away, walk away corss their arms etc - or stay connected to you and use complete and open body movements that show they are open to giving their truth while looking you in the eye.

 

Oh...you did ask....I blame my Iphone for not seeing that.

 

I'm not sure if its alarming or not...but, per NH, when they do talk - it doesn't appear to be a discussion but a monologue - and one she isn't interested in listening to. As he has said...she simply carries on as if he hadn't spoken.

 

I don't know it is denial or a self-defense mechanism - essentially tuning out all of the fallout of her actions.

 

But there NEEDS to be WAY more healthy talking going on. And there doesn't appear to be.

 

Of course, she does plenty of talking to friends - perhaps some of the same on that email he sent. I'm telling you, she has a support system in place that is egging her on. And its centered on and around that dojo (the dojo from hell..dum dum duhhhhhhhhh)

 

And, whats worse, the dojo defines her - can you imagine the influence they have on her? And that one guy's reply...some sick people there...sick.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Sometimes email works better so it has no chance of turning into a 2 hour discussion\fight. We do talk as well of course. With email you can choose your words very carefully, send links, etc. For coming up with a draft of what to say to DD, email is preferable. It needs to be written down. To send a video link, email is preferable. The discussion we had the night before last? That needed to be in person.

[2sunny]

Has she watched that video? Has she read the books you requested?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Has she watched that video? Has she read the books you requested?

Yes, same day I spilled to sensei:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-72.html#post3964419

 

She's read most of His Needs Her Needs(also filled out the needs form..in her own way), a little of Love Busters, the infidelity section of Divorce Remedy, some of "Hold Me Tight". She hasn't read "Not Just Friends". I bought that just a few days ago and haven't read much of it myself yet

Edited April 27, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[2sunny]

Yes, same day I spilled to sensei:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-72.html#post3964419

 

She's read most of His Needs Her Needs(also filled out the needs form..in her own way), a little of Love Busters, the infidelity section of Divorce Remedy, some of "Hold Me Tight". She hasn't read "Not Just Friends". I bought that just a few days ago and haven't read much of it myself yet

 

 

This is good to hear! Yay!

[The Blue Knight]

Since this is NH's thread, and not Bella's, I would like to point out that her comments and questions were quite reasonable and appropriate in the context of the thread, irrespective of her own background. I had the same concerns and questions at the time I went through a very similar split to what NH is experiencing, and I have great empathy for him, in his personal pain, in his grief over the possible loss to his daughter, and in solidarity with a parent asking himself "what am I going to say?"

 

I also wanted to go on a little rant to those who thought he wasn't being tough enough early on, or that he didn't "come around" as quickly as he should have, in spite of all the advice and pounding he was getting.... I was very much in his shoes 7 years ago, and in retrospect, I found that the process was unexpectedly a 2 step loss. There's the loss of your wife, and then there's the loss of what you imagined your child's life would be.

 

Both of these are significant. They are two distinct things, but each one pulls at - and complicates - the other one. In my case, the fear of what I was about to put my children through made me willing to do anything to preserve my marriage, so I didn't set and defend firm boundaries because I thought I might push things over the edge... I offered to do anything to make it work... I didn't do a whole lot other than hurt, while I waited. Sound familiar?

 

Because once I came to terms and accepted the likely loss of my wife - maybe with the help of a little righteous anger to get me going - then right around the corner came the loss to my children and a feeling of failure that I was trying mightily to avoid.

 

I know all the old clichés that we spout to make ourselves feel better about this: how the children will be fine, how they are resilient, how you "don't want your daughter to grow up with a bad role model", and all that. And I accept them to varying degrees, albeit with significant qualifications. (The one I hate is "they'd rather be from a broken home than live in one." I think that's a great sounding bumper sticker, but not much more use than that in its over-simplicity, especially when you're talking about kids aged in the single-digits.)

 

However, none of those soothes your soul, when you compare what you thought you had - a stable family with two parents providing a good role model of a relationship - with where you seem to be headed: a divided home.

 

Even with the best of post-split co-parenting, you still suffer for the loss to your child. Maybe what was lost was just an image, a dream - what you had hoped for for them - but it is another loss to grieve. Say what you will about resilience and try to spin it that it's better for the child somehow - some of that is true, and some of it is us adults making ourselves feel better - either way, for a caring parent like NH, it's still a hard one to take, and those layers go on top of the loss of your spouse.

 

Having said that, and looking back with 7 years of perspective, I think in my case, it was inevitable. My wife was who she was, and I wasn't going to be able to change her; ending up here seems like the most probable outcome, even in retrospect. As I've been watching NH's situation evolve, I see some of that, although I'm not predicting an outcome - just the common thread that she is who she is, and it will depend on whether she chooses to change and work on her life, not whether NH can force her to change. He certainly can - and should - declare boundaries and set up the conditions for her to change if she chooses to, and has the self-awareness to pull it off. But she will be who she is, and at this point, that will drive the situation.

 

So I have no less admiration or respect for NH that he took a while getting to the next steps. I know what he was going through - you have to endure this pain, and then there's another different one coming right after it. It's almost unbearable, and you wait until there's really no other way.

 

So NH - my respect, my support to you. What little advice I have to offer is simple and metaphorical: keep moving forward - slowly if you need - but think about - focus on - the future. You don't have to have a clear vision of exactly what that will be yet - part of life sometimes is in not knowing for sure - but you will move into the future. It will be OK.

 

If you end up divorcing, you will grieve and be angry - sometimes intensely - but these will cleanse you and they will subside in time. You will still be an awesome father - nothing about this crappy situation changes that - and I believe you will be a good coparent, in whatever arrangement you forge with your daughter's mother.

Awesome post Trimmer. Well worded and thought out . . . and for those of us reading this who went through the same thing . . . yeah . . . we're sitting here reading it nodding in absolute agreement.

[The Blue Knight]

[EDIT] Looked at the phone record. She's been talking to all her friends, including the one who claimed that my nature of "email" was the worst tragedy of all (truth worse than a dead unborn child, than the dissolution of a family. really? really?)

 

She talked with her sister for an hour. Wonder how that went. Her sister was the first person I told about the A, one week after I found out. SIL was the first person I asked if I should allow WW to go to class. Know what SIL said? "She should absolutely not see him anymore". Her own flesh and blood. It was SIL that gave me the courage to even ask that they alternate days at first.

I believe in loyalty and standing by friends and family right up to the point where they cross the line, and at that point, you have to level with them and be deadly honest when they are screwing up. Sure, I've lost a couple friends doing that, but in the end, a true friendship will endure and bounce right back.

 

Her "friend" thinks your email to the sensei is the "worst tragedy of all?" What a nitwit! I'd be interested in knowing what she thinks of your wife's second time around in the affair-game then.

[Artie Lang]

i guess the most important thing you can take comfort in is the fact that you TRIED.....you really TRIED. she just wasn't on the same page. everyone here saw through her half-assed effort at reconciliation.

 

like i said before, she was just waiting you out. now she can point to you as the "psycho" husband who sent that inflammatory e-mail to all; that husband who attended class just to spy on her.

 

sorry to say, but i saw this coming a mile away. but i have a lot of respect for you, my friend. you showed me how a real man fights for his family. that in itself makes you a winner in my book.

 

you and Dig are stand-up guys. too bad your wives couldn't see that.

 

 

"SERENITY NOW!"

[Wanderer25]

I'm still not sure what to think about exposing to the dojo members.

[whichwayisup]

If she doesn't get kicked out of the dojo tonight, I might just do that.

 

 

Actually I kinda told her bits of that the night before last. She literally didn't even comprehend what I had said. She was like "what? I don't understand". I didn't bother elaborating, we moved on to other stuff.

 

Why didn't you bother elaborating? And why is almost every dicussion turn into a fight or arguement? Why can't she communicate and 'listen'? It's so easy to say I don't get it/don't understand, act like she doesn't know what is going on..=her way of avoiding it all.

 

I'll help' date=' but there's no way I'm paying for the whole thing. I'm going to end up supporting her w/living expenses regardless. It's gonna be massively bad financially. 2 sets of bills, less than half the living space. From house with yard to apartments.... It's a nightmare.[/quote']

 

Pay for school but not for her MA classes. her father can help out there since he has money. If (let's hope not) this ends up in court I'm sure the judge won't allow you to have to pay for her 'hobby' especially since she had the A with the OM there at the dojo.

 

Thanks Trimmer, that was a very good post. I'm sorry for what you went through

 

I took the questions you listed in the old 2005 thread and sent them to my W.

 

 

 

 

[EDIT] Looked at the phone record. She's been talking to all her friends, including the one who claimed that my nature of "email" was the worst tragedy of all (truth worse than a dead unborn child, than the dissolution of a family. really? really?)

 

She talked with her sister for an hour. Wonder how that went. Her sister was the first person I told about the A, one week after I found out. SIL was the first person I asked if I should allow WW to go to class. Know what SIL said? "She should absolutely not see him anymore". Her own flesh and blood. It was SIL that gave me the courage to even ask that they alternate days at first.

 

So she chose to spend hours on the phone instead of talking to you. When has she had the time to speak to them all? Between school, being home... ? Odd and very "off" too.

 

Yeah your email was tragedy of it all? WTF. WARPED. Just shows that ALL those people have a way of thinking and hey, who knows maybe she isn't the only one in that class who's having an affair. Maybe others are too. They have eachothers backs.

 

Have you spoken to her sister recently? Sure she can be offended by her sisters behaviour and what she's done ,but they are sisters and it may not take much if she threw YOU under the bus and told her sister (exaggerated) stuff to suit her in a better light to make you look bad. Just sayin, be aware that her sister more than likely will side with her if push comes to shove, especially if your wife has thrown in the towel.. But hasn't said to you yet. Her sis will support her if she chooses to divorce since it seems they are close.

[2sunny]

It will be difficult for anyone to show evidence of him being a psycho husband when all he has stated is truth.

 

She's spending a lot of time and energy defending her position... To her "friends"

 

When a person hasn't done anything wrong - there's never a need to defend truth. The energy she spending shows her guilt and need to cover up what she did. It also shows she's willing to do "all that" for her area of interest - but not necessarily the M.

[Ninja'sHusband]

She stayed home tonight. It's a relief...and annoying at the same time. I wanted to know what sensei was going to do ^^

 

Yeah SIL and her are close. WW grieves though because she claims this mess has distanced them somewhat. She feels the relationship is now strained.

 

btw I only exposed to some dojo people. People who are close to WW. I've suspected some of them knew already. One I had already told, another knew something was up for sure because she had clearly been communicating between OM and my WW in secret. WW claims this person knew "very little"...but I dunno. There's evidence she knew a bit. She was even next to them on the plane when they had that initial conversation about being open to new relationships. She was asleep though, or was she???

[2sunny]

So why did she say she stayed home?

 

She's a coward! Seriously!!! Sorry - just had to say that. Grrrr

[BetrayedH]

So why did she say she stayed home?

 

She's a coward! Seriously!!! Sorry - just had to say that. Grrrr

 

Aren't they all? I thought mine was bad (and she was) but NHs wife drives ME crazy. Seems like she is never going to step up.

[whichwayisup]

So why did she say she stayed home?

 

She's a coward! Seriously!!! Sorry - just had to say that. Grrrr

 

Couldn't face the sensei and look him in the eye.

 

Or, is it possible that she was kicked out of class but hasn't told you (yet)?

 

Either way, it would have been interesting if you BOTH had gone this evening. Oh to be a fly on the wall..

[whichwayisup]

Aren't they all? I thought mine was bad (and she was) but NHs wife drives ME crazy. Seems like she is never going to step up.

 

I guess I just don't understand why she isn't and hasn't been learning lessons along the way. She suffered consquences in the past (kicked out of 1st dojo years ago after cheating) yet she didn't learn anything from it or change. she willingly has another A in a different dojo and KNOWS she can be kicked out by breaking the rules, yet she goes ahead and does it anyway? That and don't get me started on how she is at home with NH.

 

To me, this is a woman who is a narcissist and is used to getting what she wants. Look how she's emotionally manipulated NH. Narcs are very skilled at zoning in on a person and knowing the exact buttons to push, knowing what to say to manipulate. Though it'll be subtle, almost makes you question yourself at the same time. Guess it's gaslighting but not as obvious.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Yeah I see her staying home as a way of calming me down before our session on Monday. The thing is, if she still refuses to quit...I won't know what sense's stance is, missing a piece. It does feel like chess..we're being nice to each other like normal,but there's the weird simmering tension that we're both ignoring.

[BetrayedH]

I guess I just don't understand why she isn't and hasn't been learning lessons along the way. She suffered consquences in the past (kicked out of 1st dojo years ago after cheating) yet she didn't learn anything from it or change. she willingly has another A in a different dojo and KNOWS she can be kicked out by breaking the rules, yet she goes ahead and does it anyway? That and don't get me started on how she is at home with NH.

 

To me, this is a woman who is a narcissist and is used to getting what she wants. Look how she's emotionally manipulated NH. Narcs are very skilled at zoning in on a person and knowing the exact buttons to push, knowing what to say to manipulate. Though it'll be subtle, almost makes you question yourself at the same time. Guess it's gaslighting but not as obvious.

 

Now that you mention it, it does seem surprising that no one has previously suggested NPD but perhaps it is really just now that NH is really sharing more precisely what she says rather than just her decisions. The successful avoidance of questions and ultimately getting her way regardless of her H is pretty classic. From the little I have read, narcissists are fundamentally unable to empathize or know right from wrong. As well, I've seen it said that it is truly uncurable; you simply need to run away. They will do whatever is necessary to stay in control and ultimately don't feel empathy for those that they hurt but more often just see them as a resource for getting what they want. Combine this with a codependent spouse and you've got a very successful narcissist.

[2sunny]

Did you ask her if she was asked to stay home tonight or if it was her choice?

 

I'm thinking maybe it wasn't her choice...

 

Or you could be right - its a manipulative move for Monday so she has something to tell the counselor she's sacrificed.