Boundary setting question

[Kidd]

NH, I noticed in another thread that the tide seems to be turning for you. If I read correctly, your W put her rings back on and it sounded like you have been, um, intimate. I'm curious for an update and to hear what you have been doing that you think is bringing your WW back to you. Your approach is one that is supported via several books but here at LS it gets you deemed a pathetic cuckold. If what you are doing is working for you and your W, screw the name-calling folks and share what's working.

[2sunny]

Since her OM isn't willing to give up going to MA - what is your wife's stand on it now? Is she still intent on going too?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Last big update was here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-18.html#post3864077

 

next update:

 

 

So, I basically went Plan A(Harley) and "Divorce Remedy\Busting" at the problem for a while like I was doing in the previous post. It seems to have paid off...though it wasn't easy by any means.

 

Her parents did come up to stay with us for a week. Before they came up, I asked her to come back to bed, and she cried saying she didn't know what she was going to do. She ended up moving all her bathroom stuff back into our bathroom and proceeded to sleep on a mattress in our room. She didn't want her parents to know that she was sleeping in another bed. I mentioned to my father (phone conversation) that we weren't sleeping in the same bed...in earshot of her mother (who was in the room with me). Found out later that she got grilled over that.

[2sunny]

So she's still not being honest - with her words and actions.

 

Why are you supporting her lies by begging her back into the bedroom - and thinking that her sleeping on another mattress is ok by trying to pretend its all pretty to her parents?

 

Sheez. Just tell them. In fact, have her go live with them.

 

You are going along with her lies now. Now you are to blame too - by rewarding her bad behavior.

 

You haven't really updated much. What is she doing that's new? What you stated only supports that's she's still avoiding you, intimacy and working on fixing what she broke. Meanwhile, you aren't giving her consequences for her cheating.

 

Is she still attending MA? You never answered that simple question.

 

Avoiding... It's becoming your pattern. It never accomplishes much.

[turnera]

I agree. Great points.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Last big update was here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-18.html#post3864077

 

next update:

 

 

So, I basically went Plan A(Harley) and "Divorce Remedy\Busting" at the problem for a while like I was doing in the previous post. It seems to have paid off...though it wasn't easy by any means.

 

Her computer became an open book to me through an accident. She went to a MA test that required a typed paper as well. She had forgotten to bring it...and had to call me to email it to her. She had to give me the P-word at that point

 

Her parents did come up to stay with us for a week. Before they came up, I asked her to come back to bed, and she cried saying she didn't know what she was going to do. She ended up moving all her bathroom stuff back into our bathroom and proceeded to sleep on a mattress in our room. She didn't want her parents to know that she was sleeping in another bed. I mentioned to my father (phone conversation) that we weren't sleeping in the same bed...in earshot of her mother (who was in the room with me). Found out later that she got grilled over that.

 

I was still being pretty cool at home not really having any problems with treating her like she was my exWife who happened to be sleeping on the floor etc. The problem was my behavior at work...I was constantly checking her email, looking at the phone records, checking facebook, posting on this site....basically on a road to getting fired and I knew that something had to change. I could play hero at home but if I was unable to function at work and lost all of our $$ then we'd all be screwed, my daughter included. So the next night when W was sleeping on the floor, I asked her to come back to bed. Simple statement turned into a longer conversation...and she basically refused in spite of the progress I thought we had made. I got pissed and decided we were basically done at that point...if I was just going to lose my job then what the hell was I fighting for anyway. That wouldn't be good for anyone. So at the point I told her I wasn't functioning at work anymore and that we needed to D soon so I could get my head screwed back on straight. I told her I didn't know how she was going to pay for school. It got pretty nasty for a little while, but to a minimum roar since we had guests. Eventually she came back to bed that night...yeah....crappy reason...threat of losing money =\ But, I decided to take what I could get and to hope that things would continue to improve. Small steps... I wrote out a focus statement for myself about that time. It goes something like:

 

By staying together, are we harming our daughter?

If the answer is no, then it is worth it to try and make things work.

If the answer is yes, then it is time to end the M.

 

So far the answer has always bee no, so I stick it out.

 

About 2 days later...my W called me at work. She goes, "So all that stuff you were worried about, well you don't have to worry. Poetic justice, I got rejected by University of _____"

 

This was huuuge news. She'd been working to fulfill all the entrance requirements for this masters program for the last several years. She just got finished with interviews, letters of recommendation, etc...and she got rejected. Her ticket out of the M was blown...her life goals rent asunder.

 

I came home that day for several hours to try to console her...of course she was hostile, "You never wanted me to get in!" (never was true, I always supported her). She was horribly depressed. Her self-esteem just about as low as it could get.

 

I chatted with her parents, wishing she would pick herself up and try for other schools. She didn't think any others were worthy. Eventually she did start researching more schools...making her more depressed because they had different requirements, took longer etc.

 

Eventually her parents, and my mother who also had flown in (all to see my daughter say one line in a school play) all left to go home.

 

My W was in a horrible state now that she was alone. Her selfesteem was just shattered to pieces. We talked about how she wished she had continued school earlier in life and how she wished her grades had been better when she was in school. She hated her whole career path, she wished she had left me 7 years earlier... This talk just confirmed her MLC even more for me. She started to give up on school altogether. Somewhere in here she told me she had started scaring herself with thoughts of suicide.

 

One morning she initiates another conversation with me (I'm not initiating much during this time, still trying to give her space) She tells me she won't be able to start school for another year and she wants to focus on her MA hard core. She wanted to know if I'd support her. I said I would, she didn't believe it and I said..."Well I think you know how I feel about ___". She was pretty upset thinking I couldn't handle it (and I really can't long term...) So she said a lot of negative things, most of which I don't remember now...but I kinda just weathered it and tried to tell her I would support her the best I could. Eventually I was ready to go back to work after a looong discussion. Had my jacket on, heading to the door, gave her a kiss on the lips that hadn't happened like that in a long time. She pulled me closer and...well....I mentioned in another thread that after 6 weeks of zero affection the floods reopened...well that was when the gates opened. A few days later I asked her to put her rings back on and said that even couples who are separated wear them. She had me go get them from a box upstairs and I put them back on her finger. She's been wearing them since.

 

So now we are sleeping together, she's wearing the rings, has no intentions of leaving, etc. So things seem a lot better....well...actually they are almost back to where we started with my opening post =\. There was still a big problem. She's going to class...and not even alternating with OM..just going. She eventually tells me she hasn't seen OM at class at all. She could be lying, who knows? I'm guessing it's the truth... I was making a point not to ask. The thing about this MA is there's no interaction like in other MAs. You basically stand around in lines and perform these moves. The only time they talk is after class when they are getting ready to leave. I'm not terribly worried about that.

 

The thing that got me ruffled was she started working with a committee for a national conference....our area is hosting this year. OM is part of that committee. It bugs the #$% out of me that she would go to a meeting where this guy would possibly be there. They would have to talk at that meeting...a lot. I let it go until several days after the meeting. I know it sounds wussy like...but I was confused because I had been in this place just trying to get her not to be committed to D for so long. Now we are kinda in the relationship again...so what can I do and not blow things? I decided that I had the right to ask for assurances and to ask if she had seen OM. I actually told her a few days before that i had told the OMW. To my surprise she wasn't mad at all. We both suspected the OMW was holding OM from class...problem is I *still* haven't heard a peep. So one morning we have sex....and that day at lunch I have an IC session. I call my W before the session, "Did OM show up to that meeting on Sunday?". Ummm, in a nutshell she said no he wasn't there...but the fallout was that she thought I f-ed her to get information. LOL my response was like, "You should have never gone to that meeting in the first place!!! And then you should have told me straight away whether or not OM was there!" She had the nerve to ask me to only "snoop" on her when she was present. Yeahhhhh, then you'll know how I snoop. I refused. The next couple days were a nightmare. Her guilt and shame issues overtook her and she flew into completely irrational fits of rage and craziness. She actually told me she couldn't shave her legs because of me! hahaha. She thought I would be pissed at her for being too sexy. Wow, just wow. She pulled out a knife at one point, which I immediately took from her and put away. Then she goes and gets a sword from the mantlepiece...I take that too and put it away. "What were you going to do with that sword??", "I don't know" OMG!

 

Later that day I called her parents, told her Mom she needed to call her daughter a lot and give her more reassurances, boost her ego\self esteem. I told her about the suicidal thoughts and actions. MIL asked me what I thought about having W and my daughter fly down to their place for sprint break. I didn't like it because I want to be with my W, trying to heal. FIL then told me I needed to setup a family vacation and that W wanted me to initiate more stuff like that. There's a whole 'nother story here...which I'll gloss over...hopefully I can do that. Anyway I bring the trip idea up to my W asking if she's interested...and all I get is "where was this idea months ago? Why now?" So I'm honest and say FIL suggested. Now she's really pissed. And I get pissed, bringing up stuff from "story I glossed over"...

 

Oh btw, these discussions...are happening on our 14th anniversary. And guess what happened? She slugged me in the middle of our argument. Happy Anniversary!

 

Keep in mind this is all happening while our daughter is in school (I've missed gobs of work over this insane mess...my boss is being...patient, God bless him)

 

Ok, so yeah I begin to question whether I still want in this M or not again, and I'm sure at this point most of you are like "Get out! Get Out! Get out you idiot!"

 

But I go back to my point above...my daughter is still ok. We even took my daughter to our counselor and she couldn't find any effects of what's been going on. We've kept it under wraps that well.

 

So that was kinda the bottom point, things started to get better. My W called her parents, and we talked with them on the phone, kinda using them as therapists. One shocking thing I learned was that her parents didn't know she had been intent on D'ing me...guess I should have know with how she didn't want them to see her sleeping in another bed. There are some really good things that have come from her parents knowing about the A:

 

1) W is willing to go back to counseling.

2) W is willing to let me ask whatever questions I need to about OM.

3) W is willing to let me snoop

4) W is trying to get back in school

 

and the last thing is:

5) W is willing to let me join her in her MA classes.

 

I haven't talked about this before, except to say that I wouldn't do it. Before I read that letter (mentioned in my last update) I had offered to join classes. She didn't like it, saying I was just trying to spy on her and that I wasn't interested in the classes. Basically true ^^ But my thought is that with time, my resentment will fade and we can actually start to bond in her classes and with this MA. Other people suggested this early in the thread...but I didn't want to have to be trained by OM. It's still a horrible idea...but maybe he won't be there now that OMW knows. Either way, I think my presence will make him just as uncomfortable as his does me. I'll tough it out.

 

The trip I mentioned we were fighting about isn't happening. She eventually agreed to it, but then she found a way where she might be able to attend another masters program...and she's gone full steam ahead into that. The deadlines are like NOW. She has an interview tomorrow. We've made up and even had sex a couple times in the last few days. Rollercoaster anyone??? but I have some hope.

 

EXPOSURE OF THE AFFAIR REALLY HELPED!!

 

Having OMW and W's parents know...man what a difference. It took some time, but I think those actions are starting to reap some serious benefits. I don't care if W told first. I took me calling FIL for me to know they knew, and that was key.

 

So hopefully,

 

1) She goes back to school, gets her masters...Rebuilds her self esteem.

2) We connect through her MA, together...the A doesn't get enough space to start again...cause...well I'M IN THE WAY!

 

Last week was pretty nasty...but I'm so glad that my W is starting to make some sense again(you guys may not think so...but really she's been behaving in a much better way now) I really think she's been through some heavy MLC insanity...just not being herself at all. She's starting to seem a bit more normal now that she's gotten a dose of reality from her parents and a goal with this new school.

 

Another good point: W called my mother, tried to straighten things out with her. That's related to the "story I glossed over" more than anything else. My mother and sister still don't know about the A. I intended to keep it that way if we R. It will only cause problems if they know.

 

I know from this story I've probably my W look like even more of a villain...and that's she's probably just using me...whatever. It's about my daughter really and our marital life is recovering rapidly now. The longer we make it as a family my daughter can grow with, the better. If we D ten years down the road, so be it. I can deal with that then. It will not have been a waste IMO.

[Ninja'sHusband]

(oops sorry about that false reply while I was typing...dunno why that happened)

[Kidd]

FWIW, I find it refreshing to see someone with a true commitment to marriage and their vows in even the bad times. Hell, this is what I was trying but lost my mind (my WW and OM worked together daily for several months after Dday). I was also very fortunate not to lose my job; I just happen to be in a very autonomous position where I only see one of my superiors every few months.

 

I hope your approach works for you and your family. I don't care how much everyone says you'll heal from D. Living in an apartment, having lost my W and family, having my kids half the time - it sucks. If you can weather the storm, restore your M (it starting to sound like a "normal" marriage already), and keep your family together, more power to you.

[Ninja'sHusband]

FWIW, I find it refreshing to see someone with a true commitment to marriage and their vows in even the bad times. Hell, this is what I was trying but lost my mind (my WW and OM worked together daily for several months after Dday). I was also very fortunate not to lose my job; I just happen to be in a very autonomous position where I only see one of my superiors every few months.

 

I hope your approach works for you and your family. I don't care how much everyone says you'll heal from D. Living in an apartment, having lost my W and family, having my kids half the time - it sucks. If you can weather the storm, restore your M (it starting to sound like a "normal" marriage already), and keep your family together, more power to you.

Thx Kidd Yeah I've been worried about my job...I've been reaalllyy bad. I actually told me boss he should fire me. It's been even more weird since I got a new manager about the time that i found out it had been a 4 month A...like just the week before I think. It worried me even more that the guy isn't married...but he seems really cool. I just try to be completely honest with him. The other employees give me good feedback I guess...I somehow got promoted to a virtual lead in the middle of all this(so I'm managing a couple of my peers' work now). Baffles my mind how that happened. Pretty much all the guys I've told look on me with pity and say they've been through similar hell. They are cutting me a lot of slack.

 

I'm sorry you are in the position you are in. Trickle Truth did drive me nuts too...I was walking around campus screaming at the top of my lungs into the phone..."F- you! F-You! I'm not coming home until you quit the MA!" lol

 

I hope I never see OM again...I really wonder what's going on with his family right now. I forgot to mention that my W had me call the person who heads up that committee to verify that OM wasn't at that meeting. actually she wanted me to call OM and OMW, I didn't want to call them. I suggested the committee leader instead. So now that person knows about the A as well, and confirmed OM was not there. He had called in "sick". I wonder....

[2sunny]

It seems you are bowing down to your wife's bad behavior.

 

You've now set the bar so low - she is required to do so little change for you to stay.

 

Her sense of entitlement and ego are in the way... And you just keep feeding it and growing it bigger.

 

In my world - she is a true B@tch!

 

I am amazed that YOU CHOOSE so little for yourself Ina companion (I won't refer to her as your wife- cuz she certainly doesn't act like one).

 

Your expectations are incredible to me... And allowing her to call the shots has really killed the opportunity to have a healing approach to healing the M and repair the damage she caused.

 

I wish you well... I really feel sorry for you that you allow a woman to walk ALL over you.

[2sunny]

As long as she has that attitude that "it's all about me, me, me" you're going to have problems.

 

Because she still holds all the power - but you have ALLOWED that.

[2sunny]

The issue here is that you don't know where your healthy boundary is.

 

She hasn't quit the MA

She hasn't gotten a job

She hasn't quit seeing her MM

She still does what she prefers and expects you to go along with it

She still has access to money earned

 

There really hasn't been consequences for her bad behavior - in fact - YOU have rewarded her bad behavior and made it all look ok!

 

Nothing has changed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she has now resumed her affair again.

 

 

You have no sense of healthy self

 

You are allowing her to walk all over you

 

 

 

And yes, it affects kids - she is learning what the man in her life will tolerate and how he will behave... You are showing her that a man puts up with crappy behavior from a woman and act like its ok.

[Kidd]

As long as she has that attitude that "it's all about me, me, me" you're going to have problems.

 

Because she still holds all the power - but you have ALLOWED that.

 

Or she may ultimately appreciate that the through all the pain and suffering she caused, he stayed. It was the one thing that mattered the most to my W during our R. I stayed. TT and ultimately my violent behavior were the final hurdle we couldn't overcome. I don't regret being the bigger person and staying. His approach is a legitimate one that is supported by the Harleys. It doesn't follow the path that is represented here on LS but if it saves a family, if It works for NH, his wife, and his daughter, good for them. As for me today, I had to take the day off to research about 10 pages of financials for my impending divorce. I wish I had chosen another path.

[The Blue Knight]

Wow, I just read your post from the early morning hours and I think I began perspiring from PTSD flashbacks! Your wives erratic and illogical behavior reminded me of my ex-wife's during that period of my life. All over the place emotionally. Taking off wedding rings when unhappy. Acting like a spoiled child. Self-esteem issues up the wazoo.

 

Lord, I hope it works out for you NH. My experience wasn't so good in the end. We turned the corner twice after her momentary *adventures*, but in the end she was never quite the same person I'd been married too for those first few years and it showed in little areas that she couldn't really hide. She had checked out emotionally from the marriage in a number of areas, but they were so subtle I had to really look hard to find them.

[2sunny]

Or she may ultimately appreciate that the through all the pain and suffering she caused, he stayed. It was the one thing that mattered the most to my W during our R. I stayed. TT and ultimately my violent behavior were the final hurdle we couldn't overcome. I don't regret being the bigger person and staying. His approach is a legitimate one that is supported by the Harleys. It doesn't follow the path that is represented here on LS but if it saves a family, if It works for NH, his wife, and his daughter, good for them. As for me today, I had to take the day off to research about 10 pages of financials for my impending divorce. I wish I had chosen another path.

 

Nope. Her lies continue. Not telling her parents and pretending by sleeping in the bedroom are just supporting the lies.

 

No one here is being honest.... NH is just now supporting her lies better!

[Kidd]

The issue here is that you don't know where your healthy boundary is.

 

She hasn't quit the MA

She hasn't gotten a job

She hasn't quit seeing her MM

She still does what she prefers and expects you to go along with it

She still has access to money earned

 

There really hasn't been consequences for her bad behavior - in fact - YOU have rewarded her bad behavior and made it all look ok!

 

Nothing has changed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she has now resumed her affair again.

 

 

You have no sense of healthy self

 

You are allowing her to walk all over you

 

 

 

And yes, it affects kids - she is learning what the man in her life will tolerate and how he will behave... You are showing her that a man puts up with crappy behavior from a woman and act like its ok.

 

Or he is teaching his daughter that when you love someone, you see past their faults, you understand that they are human, and when they make terrible mistakes, you don't exact consequences on your loved ones - you embrace them and help bring them back from the edge of the cliff.

 

2Sunny, you are judgmental and rude. Leave the man be.

[The Blue Knight]

Or she may ultimately appreciate that the through all the pain and suffering she caused, he stayed. It was the one thing that mattered the most to my W during our R. I stayed. TT and ultimately my violent behavior were the final hurdle we couldn't overcome. I don't regret being the bigger person and staying. His approach is a legitimate one that is supported by the Harleys. It doesn't follow the path that is represented here on LS but if it saves a family, if It works for NH, his wife, and his daughter, good for them. As for me today, I had to take the day off to research about 10 pages of financials for my impending divorce. I wish I had chosen another path.

Hard to read your postings kidd. Brings back some sad memories. I feel for ya!

[Kidd]

Nope. Her lies continue. Not telling her parents and pretending by sleeping in the bedroom are just supporting the lies.

 

No one here is being honest.... NH is just now supporting her lies better!

 

As is his choice. Perhaps honesty is not the paramount motivation for everyone. Perhaps preserving his family is a higher priority than calling someone out on their lies.

[2sunny]

Or he is teaching his daughter that when you love someone, you see past their faults, you understand that they are human, and when they make terrible mistakes, you don't exact consequences on your loved ones - you embrace them and help bring them back from the edge of the cliff.

 

2Sunny, you are judgmental and rude. Leave the man be.

 

It's not judgmental. It's honest.

 

You can placate to the OP and support him in allowing his wife's dishonesty... But there will never be balance or love in the M as long as she calls the shots and he bows down to supporting her lies.

 

What's rude or judgmental about stating the obvious?

 

 

If he's so intent on loving her - that he allows her to continue with the behavior that lead to her cheating - he will get what he wants - her...but the cheating won't stop - he will just learn to live with it. And she is training him to live with it better than before.

[Kidd]

Hard to read your postings kidd. Brings back some sad memories. I feel for ya!

 

No worries TBK, I am seeing through to the other side. It's not that it doesn't suck but I have reached a level of acceptance. I can sleep at night. I've put some weight back on. It will be a long while before it stops being a daily burden but hell, I'm fairly good at drama these days. Gimme a year.

[2sunny]

As is his choice. Perhaps honesty is not the paramount motivation for everyone. Perhaps preserving his family is a higher priority than calling someone out on their lies.

 

Wow. Just wow!!!!

 

When there is no honesty - there isn't any basis for the relationship!

 

 

How do you preserve a lie? Oh ya - grow it bigger! Create more lies to support the lies. That is so backwards!

[Kidd]

It's not judgmental. It's honest.

 

You can placate to the OP and support him in allowing his wife's dishonesty... But there will never be balance or love in the M as long as she calls the shots and he bows down to supporting her lies.

 

What's rude or judgmental about stating the obvious?

 

 

If he's so intent on loving her - that he allows her to continue with the behavior that lead to her cheating - he will get what he wants - her...but the cheating won't stop - he will just learn to live with it. And she is training him to live with it better than before.

 

I love all of your absolutist predictions. You don't know the future yet you preach it like gospel. He has asked you numerous times to stop but you can't. Get a grip on yourself.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Wow, I just read your post from the early morning hours and I think I began perspiring from PTSD flashbacks! Your wives erratic and illogical behavior reminded me of my ex-wife's during that period of my life. All over the place emotionally. Taking off wedding rings when unhappy. Acting like a spoiled child. Self-esteem issues up the wazoo.

 

Lord, I hope it works out for you NH. My experience wasn't so good in the end. We turned the corner twice after her momentary *adventures*, but in the end she was never quite the same person I'd been married too for those first few years and it showed in little areas that she couldn't really hide. She had checked out emotionally from the marriage in a number of areas, but they were so subtle I had to really look hard to find them.

 

It's definitely been insane...wowzers....I think she's finally coming round. She's been checked out for a long time, I think she's still checked out to some degree and is just going through the motions, giving it a chance to work itself out. She has nowhere to go. Who has the power? Actually I do, otherwise she'd be gone. She has felt completely trapped and miserable to the point of suicide. She's starting to get her groove back on. From last Friday till today we've been a pretty normal happy couple. Hope it lasts =\

 

Yeah and (re Kidd) me staying and showing that I still value and love her are huge things. Any criticism at all spins her has sent her into rages fueled by guilt and shame. I've pointed this out to her, and I think she's actually come to accept it. She's starting to see things slowly, how nuts she's been. I think her motives for doing things have been wrong a lot of times, but they turn into the right reasons eventually. Fake it until you can make it right? I'm gonna do that when I join her MA. Will I like that? Hell no. Will I feel resentment? Hell yes. Will I be a jailor watching my prisoner? Yes... I think in time those things will fade and I will become a willing partner to my W in her sport. We can then not only prevent another A, but bond closer than we were before.

[Kidd]

Wow. Just wow!!!!

 

When there is no honesty - there isn't any basis for the relationship!

 

 

How do you preserve a lie? Oh ya - grow it bigger! Create more lies to support the lies. That is so backwards!

 

Again, perhaps the highest priority is something other than proclaiming everyone's faults from the rooftops. Perhaps demonstrating tolerance, patience, and love despite one's faults is equally important. Perhaps filling in the whole family on their drama was a wise choice, one that she will appreciate, one that leads by example.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Her parents know she was intending D...it was in a conversation with them that it came out...and I had to sit there and convince them. My W just sat silent, neither denying or confirming. Anyway. The truth is out there, the only people who are in the dark about the A are my Mom and my sister, and they might have figured things out just from clues. My coworker had from the same clues...by the time I told him about the A it was no surprise. Same goes for another friend of mine. My Mom and sister know W wanted D, just not about the A.

 

Actually, if I told any more people it would be one of her MA friends and sensei. I'll do that if the A starts up again...but the A is gonna be really hard to do with me going to class...

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband