Boundary setting question

[2sunny]

Looks like she's calling all the shots... She's holding all the power- yep, I'd be damn mad too. And I'd quit telling her I love you...

 

Looks like I'm on ignore though . :-/

[turnera]

A few things:

 

First, I do get that she is starting to realize what this is all about, and that that is enough for you to hold on. I don't blame you for that.

 

But here's what I'm seeing. You want her to love you back, but you're ASKING her to love you back. Women HATE that. Real men don't ask, they take. It's very deep sociological/psyhcological stuff - the nicer you get, the less she wants you. She 'lets' you go to MA? You ASK her if she'll go to counseling?

 

This is where the boundaries are needed, ok? YOU are the person who should be driving the ship and, because you're afraid of losing the marriage, you let HER decide what, when, and where. Don't you see how disgusting that is to a woman?

 

Figure out what you need and TELL her. Don't ask. TELL her you're scheduling a MC and you expect her to go if she's going to stay married to you. Tell her you want the passwords to her phone and computer and, if she doesn't, you'll lock her out of the Internet and turn off the phone. Find SOME way to make her see that you will not stay at this level much longer.

 

If nothing else, find another bedroom in your house and move her stuff there. Tell her how disappointed you are that she isn't putting in any real effort and, therefore, she can stay, but it won't be in YOUR bedroom. If your family is the most important thing, put her out of your mind (and your bedroom) and focus on your kids. When they're grown, you can move out.

[Steen719]

NH,

If I loved my husband and wanted to stay married to him and I had cheated on him and he was gracious and understanding and loved me enough to forgive me and want to stay married, I think I would do whatever I needed to do to make it work. I know the martial arts is important to her, but really...more important than you? I may have mentioned this before, but I did TaeKwonDo with my XH for years and then we opened our own school. When students came from other forms of martial arts to our school, they were placed in the rank below their current rank in their old school and as soon as they were comfortable with the forms, sparring, etc., they could test for their old rank and were often put back in it. Therefore, they retained rank and did not have to start again. Additionally, I don't know what her dojo is like, but most of the time, the black belts mostly sparred with other black belts for safety reasons. If they are both there and no one knows what happened, how can you prevent that?

 

Basically, I guess what I am saying is this. IMHO, if she loves you more than the school, she will find somewhere else to do her martial arts. If she loves the school (or perhaps still the OM) more than you, she will continue to go to that school. I am having trouble even understanding why there would be a question about it if she truly wants to stay with you.

[2sunny]

Pain is a great motivator. I don't think she's in enough pain to change herself. She's just too comfortable in that drivers seat.

 

 

Here is a formula for change - its a good read!

 

 

Here

 

 

I like this one better because it shows if the resistance is greater than the other things listed - change wont happen.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_for_Change

Edited April 5, 2012 by 2sunny

[Ninja'sHusband]

NH,

If I loved my husband and wanted to stay married to him and I had cheated on him and he was gracious and understanding and loved me enough to forgive me and want to stay married, I think I would do whatever I needed to do to make it work. I know the martial arts is important to her, but really...more important than you? I may have mentioned this before, but I did TaeKwonDo with my XH for years and then we opened our own school. When students came from other forms of martial arts to our school, they were placed in the rank below their current rank in their old school and as soon as they were comfortable with the forms, sparring, etc., they could test for their old rank and were often put back in it. Therefore, they retained rank and did not have to start again. Additionally, I don't know what her dojo is like, but most of the time, the black belts mostly sparred with other black belts for safety reasons. If they are both there and no one knows what happened, how can you prevent that?

 

Basically, I guess what I am saying is this. IMHO, if she loves you more than the school, she will find somewhere else to do her martial arts. If she loves the school (or perhaps still the OM) more than you, she will continue to go to that school. I am having trouble even understanding why there would be a question about it if she truly wants to stay with you.

 

The art she practices is not as common as say TaiKwondo or Karate. I did a search for dojos in this area, only 1 came up and that's hers. Also there's no "sparring". You standing around and practice forms, literally no interaction in the classroom.

 

I got it a long time ago that there are people who would (and should) bend over backwards after an A. The most compelling post was over on Si where an lady told me of her H who had practiced Karate for 37 years, owned a dojo, sold it and quit practicing after his A. So yeah I agree, she should quit, I still think that. I pushed us to the brink of divorce over the issue. It was then that she stopped saying she loved me. Everything else has returned except that. I believe you can rebuild love. The question is how much patience I have =\ I've already played the game where I move out of the bedroom, etc...it only made things worse. She played that game it too... we just now recovered from it. I think it's time to stop all that nonsense. Like I said, I've long been familiar with the respect idea that you are talking about. "Love Must be Tough" was the first book I read after the A: Amazon.com: Love Must Be Tough (9780849913419): James C. Dobson: Books I had all that stuff in mind when I tried to play tough. Maybe I'll go back there...but first I think we need some peace. She needs to see me in a good light. I like the Harley plan A\B system where you show your good side, then if that's not working you suddenly break contact. Still no fighting or drama, you're just not there anymore. June 30th is when we move from our current house. That's my deadline.

[turnera]

Glad to hear you actually have a deadline, but I'm confused. You say you won't divorce her, so what good is a deadline? Deadline for what? What's the consequence?

[Steen719]

The art she practices is not as common as say TaiKwondo or Karate. I did a search for dojos in this area, only 1 came up and that's hers. Also there's no "sparring". You standing around and practice forms, literally no interaction in the classroom.

 

I got it a long time ago that there are people who would (and should) bend over backwards after an A. The most compelling post was over on Si where an lady told me of her H who had practiced Karate for 37 years, owned a dojo, sold it and quit practicing after his A. So yeah I agree, she should quit, I still think that. I pushed us to the brink of divorce over the issue. It was then that she stopped saying she loved me. Everything else has returned except that. I believe you can rebuild love. The question is how much patience I have =\ I've already played the game where I move out of the bedroom, etc...it only made things worse. She played that game it too... we just now recovered from it. I think it's time to stop all that nonsense. Like I said, I've long been familiar with the respect idea that you are talking about. "Love Must be Tough" was the first book I read after the A: Amazon.com: Love Must Be Tough (9780849913419): James C. Dobson: Books I had all that stuff in mind when I tried to play tough. Maybe I'll go back there...but first I think we need some peace. She needs to see me in a good light. I like the Harley plan A\B system where you show your good side, then if that's not working you suddenly break contact. Still no fighting or drama, you're just not there anymore. June 30th is when we move from our current house. That's my deadline.

 

Well, of course, you have to make your decision based on what you want. I honestly can't see how she has chosen you when she won't leave the dojo. It is not like an arbitrary request. There is a reason for it. That doesn't look like love to me, NH. It really doesn't. What is she giving up? Maybe you don't think she should. Anyway, I wish you the best, really. I guess it just seems like you are doing all of the heavy lifting while she plays a victim. But as I said, you will make your own decision and hopefully it will serve you well.

[Ninja'sHusband]

I think your wife might be a candidate for this.

 

She pulled out a knife and sword and talked suicide???

 

She said "Something is wrong with me, it's not you"???

 

She knows something is wrong with her.

 

Whenever someone talks about suicide even going so far as to display weaponry by which it could be accomplished, it should be taken very seriously and as a clear sign of a SERIOUS emotional, psychological, or psychiatric problem.

 

You can't fix your marriage if your wife remains untreated for a psychological or psychiatric disorder. Often these seem to manifest themselves around midlife, but it's likely this has been an ongoing issue since adolescence.

 

She needs PROFESSIONAL help from a trained therapist. Books aren't going to do it, you're not going to do it, love shack isn't going to do it.

 

Let me repeat: She needs professional therapeutic help.

 

She is a SICK woman.

 

Borderline personality disorder - PubMed Health

 

(Also you sound like an enabler. Your actions are hurting not helping.)

 

Enabling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We've both been to a lot of counseling. The suicide thing is over now AFAICT. She seems to have gotten herself under control. I think this new masters program she has been accepted into did a lot for her.

 

I've actually been reading a book on BPD as well ^^ Not because of my W though, it's for my sister. My sister shows enough of the signs that my mother and my W were pushing for me to read something. That's a big part of the "story that I glossed over" in my big update. It's a long story unto itself. Basically sister is fairly classic BPD without the self mutilation stuff. She's a perfect example of "I hate you, don't leave me" (like the book title says)

 

Anyway, I have no suspicions that my W is BPD. I think her thing is MLC ^^ which can make people suicidal as well...and did. But it's not a recurring thing. This is like 1 week out of her whole life. BPD is constant. She doesn't have the paranoia, anxiety, etc. My sister on the other hand...wow...yeah all of it is there. paranoia, extreme emotions, fear of abandonment. She' actually said "I hate you"..and then talked about how everyone abandons her. So classic BPD. So I definitely have 1st hand experience of BPD (minus mutilation) and my W doesn't fit.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Well, of course, you have to make your decision based on what you want. I honestly can't see how she has chosen you when she won't leave the dojo. It is not like an arbitrary request. There is a reason for it. That doesn't look like love to me, NH. It really doesn't. What is she giving up? Maybe you don't think she should. Anyway, I wish you the best, really. I guess it just seems like you are doing all of the heavy lifting while she plays a victim. But as I said, you will make your own decision and hopefully it will serve you well.

 

Yup you are right about all of that. I'm giving her time. Read up on dealing with someone in a MLC, I think I'm doing the right thing.

[2sunny]

I don't see your wife as anything other than selfish and self serving.

 

You can put a label on it if it makes you feel better (MLC) - but it appears her core being mainly thinks of herself. That's not loving behavior.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Glad to hear you actually have a deadline, but I'm confused. You say you won't divorce her, so what good is a deadline? Deadline for what? What's the consequence?

 

Yeah I mentioned that deadline in one of my big updates. I would separate, and probably D cause at that point we've already hurt my daughter and there isn't much else to fight for.

 

 

I honestly don't think that will happen now that we've made so much progress. I had that deadline when she was sleeping in the other room, had her rings in a box, etc.

[Steen719]

Yup you are right about all of that. I'm giving her time. Read up on dealing with someone in a MLC' date=' I think I'm doing the right thing.[/quote']

 

Ha ha ha.....:lmao::lmao: been there, done that, lived through it. I thought it was crap when he did it and I still have the same opinion. Selfish, self-serving people have MLC. Those of us who are too busy just freaking trying to live, pay bills and raise our kids don't. Of course, that is just my opinion, but it is what it is.

[The Blue Knight]

"Love Must be Tough" was the first book I read after the A: Amazon.com: Love Must Be Tough (9780849913419): James C. Dobson: Books I had all that stuff in mind when I tried to play tough. Maybe I'll go back there...but first I think we need some peace. She needs to see me in a good light. I like the Harley plan A\B system where you show your good side' date=' then if that's not working you suddenly break contact. Still no fighting or drama, you're just not there anymore. June 30th is when we move from our current house. That's my deadline.[/quote']

Good book NH and Dobson has some other marriage-focused books that deal with that subject if you get the chance to read them. Steen makes a good point and I, as someone who practiced MA for years and still teach it PT have to agree with her. I teach women's street survival courses and if I was involved with a female student and my wife discovered my affair and as a result demanded I give up my teaching . . . assuming I wanted the marriage to still work, I guess I don't' see that as an illegitimate request.

 

Your wife broke the boundaries that came with attending her MA school. I guess I'd be willing to meet her halfway by suggesting she can take MA at a different school, or take up pottery classes for all I care . . . but she doesn't need to expose herself to the place where she met the OM.

[2sunny]

I really don't see much that's changed. I think she's just getting better at her lying and cover up - also her manipulation and control is still very much intact.

 

NONE of those present a good situation for this to change, heal and recover.

 

I think her affair is still ongoing. Yet this OP doesn't see it.

 

I'm not necessarily posting only for you NH - this thread is viewed by many others - so its really a blanket observation and info that's delivered here.

 

When the resistance is greater than the disatisfaction, vision and action - the change won't happen. HER resistance is HUGE! So don't expect much to change... She's not uncomfortable enough to change.

[2sunny]

I'm beginning to hate that fancy "label" MLC! It's the cheaters easy way of not taking ownership of their completely bad behavior.

 

It's also an easy way for others to excuse bad behavior such as hers.

 

Stop making excuses for her - she's the one who cheated - and is most likely still cheating!

 

Yep - her behavior is that of a cheater who is still cheating or still trying to conspire a way to resume the cheating ways.

 

 

No two ways about her... But she's got you so snowed you can't see her reality.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Good book NH and Dobson has some other marriage-focused books that deal with that subject if you get the chance to read them. Steen makes a good point and I, as someone who practiced MA for years and still teach it PT have to agree with her. I teach women's street survival courses and if I was involved with a female student and my wife discovered my affair and as a result demanded I give up my teaching . . . assuming I wanted the marriage to still work, I guess I don't' see that as an illegitimate request.

 

Your wife broke the boundaries that came with attending her MA school. I guess I'd be willing to meet her halfway by suggesting she can take MA at a different school, or take up pottery classes for all I care . . . but she doesn't need to expose herself to the place where she met the OM.

I totally agree with all that. I'd do the same. Hell, I'm a musician/composer and I haven't written anything for months because I've been dealing with this crap constantly. I'm not happy about how she's handled this by any stretch. It's been a nightmare. It's all about what priorities are. My issues with the way she's handled this take a lower priority than my daughter's happiness. Bottomline.

 

Btw, Dobson's techniques, Harley's Plan B, etc. This stuff is meant for a spouse who is *still in the A*. My wife is not in the A anymore. And inspite of what people say...I didn't exactly just let it go when I found out about the A. I've talked to the OM, OMW (via paper), MIL, FIL, SIL, a dojo member, 2 of our best friends, my father, coworkers... I've spied on her constantly, made her face everything in counseling and in discussions at home, made threats, moved out of the bedroom, yelled, etc, etc.

 

 

Not giving up yet, nyah nyah nyah nyah

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[The Blue Knight]

I totally agree with all that. I'd do the same. Hell, I'm a musician/composer and I haven't written anything for months because I've been dealing with this crap constantly. I'm not happy about how she's handled this by any stretch. It's been a nightmare. It's all about what priorities are. My issues with the way she's handled this take a lower priority than my daughter's happiness. Bottomline.

 

Btw, Dobson's techniques, Harley's Plan B, etc. This stuff is meant for a spouse who is *still in the A*. My wife is not in the A anymore. And inspite of what people say...I didn't exactly just let it go when I found out about the A. I've talked to the OM, OMW (via paper), MIL, FIL, SIL, a dojo member, 2 of our best friends, my father, coworkers... I've spied on her constantly, made her face everything in counseling and in discussions at home, made threats, moved out of the bedroom, yelled, etc, etc.

 

 

Not giving up yet, nyah nyah nyah nyah

I understand she's no longer in the affair. But I'm sure you'd agree that those men have some good suggestions in their books for wading through the muck of the affair during, and after. Keep in mind my friend, I come from the "support whatever you decide" philosophy. I'm not one of those who is casting stones.

[Ninja'sHusband]

I understand she's no longer in the affair. But I'm sure you'd agree that those men have some good suggestions in their books for wading through the muck of the affair during, and after. Keep in mind my friend, I come from the "support whatever you decide" philosophy. I'm not one of those who is casting stones.

Thx. Yeah, though Dobson seemed uber focused on the case where a guy is having on going As and the BW is allowing it, even allowing the OW to live in the same house!

 

In Harley's big example, the WW left the house to live with the OM, that's when Plan B went into action.

 

Harley's general "need" ideas and "love busters" have been useful for me...though I haven't been perfect at pulling them off. For example I just told my W she is nuts...oops... It's getting to the point where I just don't care anymore. The stuff she does and says make no sense to me. It's becoming comedic...

[2sunny]

You shouldn't care ONE bit that she ruined her chance of going to the dojo by pissing on her playground.

 

She ruined it by having her affair there. Not going anymore is HER consequence. IF she goes - that should be a deal breaker!

 

She should have thought about that when she messed with her hobby.

 

Let her get another hobby! It's not the only thing she COULD be interested in - HOW ABOUT SOME CHARITY WORK? A selfish woman like her could learn a few things by becoming more focused outside her own self!

[Try]

It does piss me off that she still puts no effort into anything...it's up to me to suck it up and forgive the A' date=' fix the M. She gets all offended because of my threat to end her MA and stops loving me. Here I am the one who was betrayed... What total BS. [/quote'] I agree it is “total BS”. That is why it will not work. This was not the first time that she cheated on you and it will not be the last. It takes respect and remorse to have true reconciliation, and you have neither. Rug sweeping produces short term gain, but guarantees long term failure. What is best for you daughter is long term success and a healthy marriage where both spouses respect each other. You are giving her very little chance at that with your current course of action. Divorce takes time and had you started through with it and meant it, you would have had a better chance at her really coming around. Now there is a much smaller chance of that. Speaking first hand, my mother at first did what you did and rug swept. It did not work and was hell for me as a child to live in that situation. I was actually thankful for the divorce when it finally came. The funny thing was that once the divorce was almost final, it was my dad the cheater that came begging and my mom that had enough. Again, I know firsthand that rug sweeping was not best for me as a child or for the best chance at my cheating dad seeing the light. I hope that you poor plan beats the odds. I really do, but for you daughter’s sake please go with the odds and change your plan. File for divorce and be willing to move on. She will either see the light and give you a real marriage, or you will move on and find a better wife that will give you a real marriage for your daughter to be a part of.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Try

[Ninja'sHusband]

I agree it is “total BS”. That is why it will not work. This was not the first time that she cheated on you and it will not be the last. It takes respect and remorse to have true reconciliation, and you have neither. Rug sweeping produces short term gain, but guarantees long term failure. What is best for you daughter is long term success and a healthy marriage where both spouses respect each other. You are giving her very little chance at that with your current course of action. Divorce takes time and had you started through with it and meant it, you would have had a better chance at her really coming around. Now there is a much smaller chance of that. Speaking first hand, my mother at first did what you did and rug swept. It did not work and was hell for me as a child to live in that situation. I was actually thankful for the divorce when it finally came. The funny thing was that once the divorce was almost final, it was my dad the cheater that came begging and my mom that had enough. Again, I know firsthand that rug sweeping was not best for me as a child or for the best chance at my cheating dad seeing the light. I hope that you poor plan beats the odds. I really do, but for you daughter’s sake please go with the odds and change your plan. File for divorce and be willing to move on. She will either see the light and give you a real marriage, or you will move on and find a better wife that will give you a real marriage for your daughter to be a part of.

 

Good way to put it, probably the most effective argument for D I've seen.

 

Tomorrow I go to my first class I think. I wanna see how that goes. If the OM is there...bad things loom in the future. If he's not there...well I have a little more hope. Dunno if he'll stay away forever even if he's not there.

[2sunny]

You deserve so much better than what you're settling for. It's difficult to watch you betray self.

 

Your daughter deserves better too - for her healthy role model - no matter how great you say she is as a Mom - she's got an attitude that defends her cheating. Nothing about that is a good influence on viewing a parent or marriage.

 

Never settle.

[whichwayisup]

Wish you the best and I hope your wife wakes up from her fog before she loses everything.

 

Side note - Her cheating is not your fault. Each of you are responsible for your part in any problems in the marriage. How she handled it, processed it and dealt with it by cheating is ALL ON HER. The minute she chose to cheat on you, betray you and the whole family unit as one, was the day your marriage changed forever. She created this mess, not you.

 

If the time comes where a trial separation or divorce happens, just know that with the help of family counseling, putting your daughter first no matter what (**I know you will, not too sure about your wife**) happens between you and your wife, your daughter will adjust with your love and support.

[beach]

Does she still have the p o box? Have you checked it?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Does she still have the p o box? Have you checked it?

Yeah she does, there's a key in her purse for it. I haven't really bothered her about it. I don't think it's doing much. She had this bank account setup...farther back than I thought. Her Dad had given her 3000$ for school in case we got a D. That was...ugh I forget when..She told me it was months before our false decision to D. I found out when she switched the address for the account and the notice came to us(me). I mentioned that I knew about the POBox & bank account a couple weeks later and she told me about the college money.

 

If I want to get hardcore, yeah I could take that key, find the box, open it. Or I could reset the p-word on her phone from the web interface...that's the most dangerous loop hole. She could have an email account on that phone that I don't know about...but I doubt it.

The laptop on the other hand has been unlocked for a long time now.

I could also install a GPS in her car. I haven't bothered with those things...I really think she's stopped all the secret contact stuff. She's gotten caught too many times with texting, facebook, email, me talking to the OM, etc. Not real sorry about it =\ Just kinda trapped and resigned.

 

Her mom griped her out for hiding stuff. I found a deleted email from OM on her laptop...was a harmless thing sent to a group discussing plans for a conference. I brought up the fact that she was hiding an email from OM.. Her dad got angry at first, "If it was benign what is the problem?". My reply was, "It's the dishonesty, if she hides something benign, what is she going to do with something that matters?!" He had nothing to say about that. Then her mother chimed in and said that she should never delete anything, that she should show it to me. Then I would have no recourse to accuse her of hiding stuff. My W's explanation was seeing OM's name in her inbox hurt her and she didn't want to look at it. Maybe the truth...partially. Anyway, I felt like my W got it, don't hide stuff anymore. The texts, emails, phone calls, etc had all stopped a while before that even.

 

She's pissed at me right now...she can't handle any criticism at all. Tonight she was brushing our daughter's hair and daughter was starting to cry... I told her to at least pause for daughter to collect herself. She got really pissed at being called out on mothering, claims I do it all the time. She started arguing with me contemptuously right in front of our daughter. Sooo sensitive, I think her self esteem is so low she can't handle anything. If that continues...that's bad....not in front of our daughter. The reason I've been staying is we haven't been doing that, we've kept it under wraps mostly. If we start fighting in front of the kid over stupid stuff ...then working things out starts to become pointless and my little reality check question breaks down: "By staying together are we hurting our daughter?" #1 thing to consider