Boundary setting question

[Ninja'sHusband]

NH, my exOM wanted me to have a baby w him. He is D and wants another child. I would never give him that.

Your WW has no idea what she is losing in you. She isn't thinking...

I'm not thinking clearly either but dang....tell her to wake up

Wow, that's nuts about OM. Thanks Belle I wish she would wake up..

[2sunny]

The problem is you have expectations tht Harley is going to save your M - but that just won't happen since your W isn't willing to do the work.

 

Its futile given her attitude. As long as its ALL ABOUT HER - it's never ever gonba be about you.

 

And she's too comfortable to consider you. And your not willing to let her get damn uncomfortable...enough for her to get her a$$ in gear.

 

You CAN affect her by taking away her comfort zone - but your not willing.

[Wanderer25]

NH, my exOM wanted me to have a baby w him. He is D and wants another child. I would never give him that.

Your WW has no idea what she is losing in you. She isn't thinking...

I'm not thinking clearly either but dang....tell her to wake up

 

What a snake. Atleast you are sane enough to reject that.

 

Might all be true. Tough ****....I'm the father of her child, she is the mother of my child. OM is married with kids, and he's an adulterer.

 

What's he got that I don't? Uhh, well he's advanced at her MA, according to her is more confident. I think that's about it.

 

She actually resents him now for not telling his W, or quitting class himself (selfish on her part yeahh)

 

If she's smart we'll rebuild. One of Harley's lure lines to get her into counseling with him was, "Can you agree to the goal of being in love with the father of your child?"

 

More to your point,

If you dig back through this thread you'll find a time when I was crushed because she responded to my threats of D by actually wanting to D, telling me she didn't love me anymore, moved out of the bedroom and bathroom, took off her rings, etc

 

I think love can be rebuilt...and is being rebuilt. She's come back sooo far from where she was a few weeks ago. Problem is, the wounds are being reopened for me constantly.

 

Why did she stay during that crazy time she was intent on D? She's got nowhere to go. I'm fully aware of that. But at the same time we are rebuilding emotionally, in spite of all the crap.

 

 

I will repeat the same crap that everyone has been telling and you will counter with the same arguments. I've been following your thread from a long time. I was reading when you first made the decision to D. I was concerned when you stopped posting for a time after that.

 

I will only hope this turns out well for you. You are concerned about your wife, her well being, your marriage and your daughter. But the person you are not taking care of is you. You are not indestructible. Sometimes it is better to let go NH. At this point with her mentality, I think a quick death is better for you than a long and slow death over 4-5 years.

[whichwayisup]

will only hope this turns out well for you. You are concerned about your wife, her well being, your marriage and your daughter. But the person you are not taking care of is you. You are not indestructible. Sometimes it is better to let go NH. At this point with her mentality, I think a quick death is better for you than a long and slow death over 4-5 years.

 

He's said he isn't leaving (yet).. So, my suggestion is..Continue on without your wife's input. Go out with your daughter, do family things and go on like all is okay. Be happy (fake it if need be) and show your wife YOUR life is going on with or without her. Stop fussing about her and let her be. if she is going to continue her A or have an EA with the exOM, it's going to happen with or without you going to her MA class. Let her hang herself..But make it perfectly clear to her (when she asks, and she WILL when she notices your change in attitude and dynamic - You working hard,jumping through hoops for her) that you won't be workin with her on the marriage until she starts putting in 100%. Not 50, but 100!

[Ninja'sHusband]

 

I will repeat the same crap that everyone has been telling and you will counter with the same arguments. I've been following your thread from a long time. I was reading when you first made the decision to D. I was concerned when you stopped posting for a time after that.

Yeah that was a rough time for me. I was in huge amounts of pain. I made some decisions that I eventually posted, but at the time, I couldn't be on here. I didn't want to deal with all the flak I knew would come my way. I think I did the right thing.

 

I will only hope this turns out well for you. You are concerned about your wife, her well being, your marriage and your daughter. But the person you are not taking care of is you. You are not indestructible. Sometimes it is better to let go NH. At this point with her mentality, I think a quick death is better for you than a long and slow death over 4-5 years.

 

Yeah my therapist says similar stuff to what you are saying now. It's true I'm not indestructible. I'm hoping there's a way to make this work. I'm not lying down and settling. I'm still thinking, weighing options, taking action, maybe not the actions people here want...but I'm doing something. Part of the Harley advice was to let my W fix this mess. I had to step back and give her room to do it. I did. She finally came around and suggested I follow her to all her classes, I countered and said I wanted to participate. Sooo, we're trying that. I don't think it's gonna work really, now that OM's showed back up, but at least we're doing something. Hopefully she'll see this is doomed soon enough. Maybe it'll take another kick in the ass from me... If I tell sensei, we are gonna go through a really dark period. Sucks cause things feel good right now, but it can't last, not with wounds being opened every Fri and some weekends.

[2sunny]

So now you're not only at the mercy of what your wife is or isn't doing you're also at the mercy of what the OM is or isn't doing.

 

Ask Harley this: what do I DO when my wife isn't sorry she cheated - she's only sorry she got caught?

[2sunny]

For some reason I like you a lot NH. You give me hope that men are kind and loving.

 

I really wish you could start respecting yourself enough to stop allowing your W to treat you with such disrespect.

 

You really do deserve better! There's a woman out there that would honor you and your M - it's just not the one you're currently married to.

 

 

And by the way her allowing you to "follow her" to classes or join in isn't even on the same planet as her FIXING the M. It's her doing what she wants and letting you be her puppy dog.

Edited April 17, 2012 by 2sunny

[Artie Lang]

I want her to wake up

 

how 'bout you wake up earlier, and then set her alarm for her. obviously, the power went out in both your homes; hence, no alarm has sounded.

 

 

tell her to wake up

 

the blind leading the blind.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Artie Lang

[turnera]

They tend to also understand what works with women better. Maybe the hard line works with men' date=' but women lose that emotional connection, and they just end up not giving a #$% anymore... [/quote']That is SO not true. Over at marriageadvocates, there's a guy who only did ONE thing - he went out by himself on a Friday night - and the next day his WW was all over him, wanting him back, giving him SF, saying she's back in the marriage...all because she thought he might finally be leaving her.

[turnera]

What's he got that I don't? Uhh' date=' well he's advanced at her MA, [b']according to her is more confident[/b]. I think that's about it.

NH, this is ALL there is. This is what we have been telling you from DAY 1. She has the hots for him BECAUSE HE IS STRONG AND CONFIDENT AND MANLY.

 

You, on the other hand, have wimped into SuperDad and lost all your mojo. Why would she have the hots for you when DojoMan takes what he wants? THAT is what she's looking for.

 

She will never recommit to you until she realizes you have enough dignity to NOT accept a 'maybe there' wife.

[turnera]

I'm not lying down and settling. I'm still thinking' date=' weighing options, taking action, maybe not the actions people here want...but I'm doing something. Part of the Harley advice was to let my W fix this mess. I had to step back and give her room to do it. I did. She finally came around and suggested I follow her to all her classes, I countered and said I wanted to participate. Sooo, we're trying that. I don't think it's gonna work really, now that OM's showed back up[/quote']

It MAY work if you were to go UP to him AT the dojo and say - out loud - 'stay away from my wife or I'm calling YOURS.'

[Owl]

I'm going to back up what Turnera said with something I said to you a while ago, NH.

 

Women cannot respect a man that they can walk all over. They cannot respect a man that they can control, dictate terms to, or otherwise dominate the relationship with.

 

And a woman cannot fall in love/remain in love with a man that she does not respect.

 

Your wife has no respect for you.

 

Until she does, she cannot/will not be "in love" with you.

 

What are you actively DOING that will demonstrate confidence and rebuild her respect for you?

[nofool4u]

When I told exOM, I think I trusted he wouldn't cross boundaries with me.

 

Oh please, don't insult our intelligence. You knew exactly what you were doing when you confided in another man.

[Bellechica]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja'sHusband

What's he got that I don't? Uhh, well he's advanced at her MA, according to her is more confident. I think that's about it.

 

NH, I think you should show her that you are confident.

 

One of the main things that attracted me to the OM was his manliness. He was controlling and strong. He was very different than my H.

 

I think your WW isn't doing her part because she is still attached to the OM. I think I'm having trouble doing the right thing because I'm not over my OM although I wish I were. There is temptation there and seeing him is a trigger.

 

It's irrational behavior.....this I know.

[2sunny]

He doesn't see himself as worthy... So he's willing to take her crumbs.

 

You are worth it and more!

 

Believe in yourself! Never, ever settle!

[turnera]

NH, have you considered that your daughter might end up being a better person, a happier person, a morally strong person, if she sees her dad standing up for himself and not turning into a doormat?

 

Females grow up to be just like their mom - UNLESS their dad steps in (if the mom is acting poorly) to state that that is NOT the way for a woman to be.

 

Females grow up to choose a guy just like their dad. So, if you remain in this limbo for the next 10 years just to have more time with your daughter, she will grow up and marry a milquetoast, grow to resent him for not standing up for himself, and either cheat on him or divorce him.

 

Just being in the same house as her is NOT the same thing as being the best possible father for her.

[2sunny]

My kids deeply respect my hard decision to D their Dad. 23 years we were together.

 

It impacted them. They see their Dad as a cheater (serial) who is selfish and self serving. I never explained that to them - they found out from their own experience.

 

I only explained that he cheated, that was it. I never talk badly of him to them even tho I'd like to. At first they wanted me to forgive him, but as soon as I said that I'd done that ten years prior, they looked at me and said "he's a douche, you're an amazing woman, we won't allow you to go back evening you wanted to." they were 14 and 16 years old.

 

Respect is earned. They don't respect him and his actions but they DO love him.

 

Every child has THAT right. I stay out of the R with my exH and kids.

 

I nurture MY relationship with them the way I want it to be! They admire my strength and courage and tell me that often.

[Steen719]

My kids deeply respect my hard decision to D their Dad. 23 years we were together.

 

It impacted them. They see their Dad as a cheater (serial) who is selfish and self serving. I never explained that to them - they found out from their own experience.

 

I only explained that he cheated, that was it. I never talk badly of him to them even tho I'd like to. At first they wanted me to forgive him, but as soon as I said that I'd done that ten years prior, they looked at me and said "he's a douche, you're an amazing woman, we won't allow you to go back evening you wanted to." they were 14 and 16 years old.

 

Respect is earned. They don't respect him and his actions but they DO love him.

 

Every child has THAT right. I stay out of the R with my exH and kids.

 

I nurture MY relationship with them the way I want it to be! They admire my strength and courage and tell me that often.

 

At first they wanted me to forgive him, but as soon as I said that I'd done that ten years prior

 

 

Ditto for me, except for me it was 13 years before.

 

they were 14 and 16 years old.

My son was 20 and told his dad that he did not want me to go back with him.

 

They don't respect him and his actions but they DO love him.

Exactly.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Had my session with Harley.

 

He still didn't agree with telling sensei. He says the most important thing is to get my W working on this with me together.

 

We agreed that my WW doesn't get it how unfair it is for her to be around OM at all. I think she thinks I will get used to it over time. His response to that was that even if it does manage to heal, it's like an untreated complex fracture, it might heal...but won't be too functional when it does.

 

Also he agreed that every Fri, it's like the knife is going back into the wound. How do you heal something that is still exposed to the original source of injury?

 

He asked me a question:

Which would make you feel more uncomfortable?

Your W having a peaceful 2 hour dinner (just conversation) with

A)OM

B)The man that raped your daughter (hypothetical of course, my daughter has not been raped!)

My response was, "uhhhh THAT'S A HARD QUESTION!".

He didn't really care to let me come to a conclusion. His point was that most BSs have trouble with this question, and most answer A. Even if they answer B, it's after a lot of pondering.

He says the WS never expects that, they think the choice is obviously B.

 

 

From what I get, any attempt by me to continue to tell this stuff to her is wasted effort, or worse just pushes her away. It's gonna have to come from somewhere else. Makes sense. The only reason I can go to the dojo and take part is cause her Mom told her I should go. He of course wants her to call him, and take part in his "coaching" program. If not he at least wants us to go to their site *together*. He'd like us to start a thread *together* so it's us, not me doing the work, and it has her POV represented. Getting her to do that...sigh...hard. But she is getting better and better around me. She actually told me she loved me yesterday, on her own initiative. Pathetic...I know...but it's progress. In "Divorce Remedy" (which is where the the original idea of the 180 came from) she says to watch for any signs of progress and take heart based on that. The point is, I have hope that she'll start working on this again if we continue down the path we are on right now. I'm gonna try to get her to do a session, or a forum thing, or something. Might fail.

 

Two more points. I mentioned you guys saying I needed to inflict more "consequences" and he said that was a short sighted knee jerk reaction thing to say.

 

ALTHOUGH in another part of the conversation he did mention filing for D if there's no action. He said M doesn't necessarily require any attention, compared to D, which requires immediate huge amounts of attention. First part of that sentence can sound really bad if taken out of context, but I get the point. Filing for D forces action. It didn't sound like he was for D right now, more of as a last resort, which is the way I see it.

 

So it is interesting that he advocates filing for D over spilling the truth to Sensei. I guess he sees one as a controlling\damaging move and the other as just a way of taking care of myself?

 

Current mission I guess is to get WW to do *something* to get expert advice. Btw, he agrees my therapist is doing a bad job, he said that 2 months ago as well...and I agree in a lot of ways. My current therapist, she's the one we started with though and is 100% covered by ins. I dunno, I go back there just because it's free and is something compared to nothing.

 

Another way of summing up all of Harley's advice is: "Send her to us!" but w\e. If he was truly in it for just the $$ he could just have only me keep calling back and spending cash. He knows there's a big possibility W won't do it...and by the end of the conversation it was clear to me that any more solo sessions with him and me would probably be pointless. He also made it clear that I could at least get her to take advantage of the free stuff, like forums, articles, etc. (money is a big excuse of WW not to have anything to do with Harley)

 

Tomorrow: lawyer appointment in the afternoon.

[drifter777]

He also made it clear that I could at least get her to take advantage of the free stuff, like forums, articles, etc. (money is a big excuse of WW not to have anything to do with Harley)

 

Tomorrow: lawyer appointment in the afternoon.

 

If you really want her to speak with this guy, I'm sure the price of her MM classes would cover a session of two. However, I'm not sure why you think forcing her to speak with anyone to "fix" her has much chance to work. Think of her as an addict. If she's not motivated to change her life for her own sake it's not going to happen.

 

As for your counselor, just how many people need to explain how poor she is before you make a change?

 

Congrat's on taking the step to see a lawyer.

[Owl]

The only place on his forum that she MIGHT be able to post without being driven off completely would be in the "restricted" section where he posts.

 

DO NOT HAVE HER POST ON THAT SITE ANYWHERE IN THE OPEN FORUMS.

 

She'd see one page of responses and never return.

 

So...does he say HOW he wants you to convince her to seek expert advice? HOW you're supposed to get her to counsel with him, or post on his forum?

 

That's what I still see lacking in the advice he gave you...specific actions to take to bring her around.

 

I never counseled with them...but I did apply a lot of his ideas to our recovery. Don't know that I am sure that the direct advice he's given you is going to get you anywhere...don't see any plan of action that he's recommending, along with specifics on HOW to implement them.

[2sunny]

His advice to GET HER to DO something is wasted money and effort.

 

At this point YOU can't MAKE HER CHANGE!

 

You can change YOU. You can change what YOU DO OR DON'T DO.

 

You can also ACCEPT this as YOUR status quo... Bummer though...

 

I'd like to ask a question... When your W says she loves you what does that mean to HER? Does she love you to the core of who you are or does it mean she loves you because you're willing to go along with her manipulations of not taking ACTION to change what she has ruined?

[Ninja'sHusband]

The only place on his forum that she MIGHT be able to post without being driven off completely would be in the "restricted" section where he posts.

 

DO NOT HAVE HER POST ON THAT SITE ANYWHERE IN THE OPEN FORUMS.

 

She'd see one page of responses and never return.

 

So...does he say HOW he wants you to convince her to seek expert advice? HOW you're supposed to get her to counsel with him, or post on his forum?

 

That's what I still see lacking in the advice he gave you...specific actions to take to bring her around.

 

I never counseled with them...but I did apply a lot of his ideas to our recovery. Don't know that I am sure that the direct advice he's given you is going to get you anywhere...don't see any plan of action that he's recommending, along with specifics on HOW to implement them.

Thanks for the heads up OWL. I think I remember you having some really bad feedback about the forums over there before. You said even advice from Harley was trashed on his own forums? Was that you?

 

He did give me advice on how to coax her over to counseling before. It didn't work though given he's not covered by Ins. I almost had her calling until she found out about that part =\ (2 months ago)

I might have more of a prayer this time, back then she was intent on D, now she's in a very different place.

 

He did mention that he's not the only person out there. Ugh...such a pain in the ass to find someone else. Probably will be what I have to do though.

 

 

Oh and the reason I originally REALLY wanted to call was because the idea of exposure came from the Harleys. I wanted to know if I should tell sensei but was unclear about it since the A was not ongoing. If the Harleys themselves don't agree with exposure to fix things in this case....then the advice in the books didn't apply.

[Ninja'sHusband]

From their website.

 

Steve Harley is not a qualified or licensed psychotherapist or psychologist.

Yeah but he is the son of the guy who wrote the book preaching exposure to end an A. If even he doesn't condone exposing to sensei, and I was getting justification from his father's book...well I have something to think about.

 

 

I'm still considering exposure if WW doesn't do something...it just feels better to tell the truth than rip my family apart deliberately.

[2sunny]

I think you should trust your gut. You know better than anyone what is or isn't working for you.

 

Leaving aside what SHE is or isn't doing - its better if you take action on changing things for you. That is the only thing you CAN control - is you.

 

Remember... What YOU DO OR DON'T DO does affect her! With every action or NONaction comes a REACTION.

 

There are many times that when one spouse STOPS doing things the same as they used to - the other spouse begins to adjust and change.

 

It takes consistency on YOUR PART though... To invoke the change you wish to see.

 

The goal here is for YOU to be happy no matter what she is or isn't doing.

 

I can guarantee you - your happiness should NOT be based upon what she is or isn't doing.

 

I haven't stated so yet - but I don't agree with you following her other dojo like a puppy dog spying to see if someone may steal his food while he's not watching. You can think you're watching - but the watching may cause you more pain than you want.

 

IF she INTENDS to see him or have contact - NO ONEand NOTHING will keep them apart. Since she's not forthcoming with her feelings and honesty - there's NO WAY to determine what her intent is.

 

Her behavior isn't a wife that intends to restore your faith in her. Her approach is a wife that wants you to do all the worrying and heavy lifting while she plays "pretty, perfect wife and mother".

 

I continue to bead that you aren't HONORING YOURSELF more than you are.

 

When you restresomebalanceto the relationship - you won't feel likely have to give up YOU to be loved by HER.

 

It won't feel liken internal battle because you won't be betraying self.

 

As long as you focus more on her than you - the boundary isn't healthy.

 

SheSHOULDbe more agreeable to change for bettering the M- but SHE'S NOT.

 

No dojo, Harley or counselor can make her as long as she's not willing.