Boundary setting question

[Ninja'sHusband]

The idea of exposure didn't originate with the Harleys. People have been exposing affairs for thousands of years before the Harleys. .

 

:rolleyes:

 

Of course, but it's where I read about it as a formal strategy used in a very planned\deliberate manner.

[Ninja'sHusband]

From their website.

 

Steve Harley is not a qualified or licensed psychotherapist or psychologist.

Another point on this. He did more good in 1 hour than my regular therapist did in...sheesh..I dunno how many sessions. I feel pretty confident in my reasons for using him, at least in the past. The credentials thing could easily be a stumbling point for WW, and honestly my prediction is she won't talk to him.

[Owl]

Thanks for the heads up OWL. I think I remember you having some really bad feedback about the forums over there before. You said even advice from Harley was trashed on his own forums? Was that you?

 

Not that his advice was trashed, but that it was the ONLY advice to be considered...ever. He was treated as a god who could never be wrong, and any advice or thought that didn't come directly from the man was blasphemy.

 

And no...I never trashed him. No reason to...I've got no issue with his basic concepts at all, although I often wonder why the personal advice he seems to offer almost always seems contrary to what he suggests in his books and written works.

 

Just as it has in your case. WHY does he recommend against exposure in your case, when he's an advocate of this as 'general advice' in his books and website?

 

Non sequiter.

 

He did give me advice on how to coax her over to counseling before. It didn't work though given he's not covered by Ins. I almost had her calling until she found out about that part =\ (2 months ago)

I might have more of a prayer this time, back then she was intent on D, now she's in a very different place.

 

He did mention that he's not the only person out there. Ugh...such a pain in the ass to find someone else. Probably will be what I have to do though.

 

 

Oh and the reason I originally REALLY wanted to call was because the idea of exposure came from the Harleys. I wanted to know if I should tell sensei but was unclear about it since the A was not ongoing. If the Harleys themselves don't agree with exposure to fix things in this case....then the advice in the books didn't apply.

 

Right. Why doesn't the advice apply in your situation, and if it doesn't, why isn't it outlined in his books?

 

Again, don't take me wrong. Exposure worked in my case, for example. So did applying the concepts of the love bank, emotional needs, etc... I'm just curious why it seems like he gives the opposite advice to folks who actually counsel with him?

 

So...spell out his "plan" for helping you to recover your marriage, step by step?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Not that his advice was trashed, but that it was the ONLY advice to be considered...ever. He was treated as a god who could never be wrong, and any advice or thought that didn't come directly from the man was blasphemy.

 

And no...I never trashed him. No reason to...I've got no issue with his basic concepts at all, although I often wonder why the personal advice he seems to offer almost always seems contrary to what he suggests in his books and written works.

 

Just as it has in your case. WHY does he recommend against exposure in your case, when he's an advocate of this as 'general advice' in his books and website?

 

Non sequiter.

 

 

 

Right. Why doesn't the advice apply in your situation, and if it doesn't, why isn't it outlined in his books?

 

Again, don't take me wrong. Exposure worked in my case, for example. So did applying the concepts of the love bank, emotional needs, etc... I'm just curious why it seems like he gives the opposite advice to folks who actually counsel with him?

 

So...spell out his "plan" for helping you to recover your marriage, step by step?

 

Well, he didn't write the book actually. It was his father. There could be differing views. And the book is pretty vague about what to do in a situation like mine...where the A is over but there's still contact, in my case right in front of me since I'm attending class now.

 

He has a pretty generic plan:

 

Presented in two ways really.

WW has to be trained to be the physician, to heal the wound. He will supervise as she "treats" me

I will report back how it's going.

 

I said my WW would probably object saying she has her own wounds (like from 7 years ago). He said there would be a triage process. Probably with a wound like an A that occurred this year, that would come first.

 

On a broader level:

 

1) Agree that the goal is to find a way to make the M a happy place for everyone

2) Research the idea that this is possible, and how to do it

3) err...actually I'm unclear We're really stuck on #2. Last conversation I had with him, we were stuck on #1.

4) execute

5) maintain?

 

I think a big part of it is that creative consultation process, and the policy of joint agreement for everything.

 

So yeah he doesn't have specific steps for us. He can't know what to do without my W's POV. That's why we need her there.

[Steen719]

If you are spending a lot of money with Harley, why not spend the co-pay for a live therapist that you and your wife can go to? You can ask friends, check recommendations on the internet, call therapist's offices and find out if any of them specialize in infidelity. Maybe she is more likely to go to a real person. You can discern a lot about a person when you are face to face with them and see their expressions.

 

We can only go by what you say, but it sure does seem like you are the only one really working on this marriage, but only you can decide when enough is enough. You'll get there if she doesn't do what she needs to and only you know if it will make you feel better or worse that you waited for her to change.

 

I agree with Sunny in that you following her to class is pointless. You cannot be her jailer and why would you ever want to have to depend on you eyeballing her to keep her away from the OM? Everyone here has told you the same thing...she is not acting like a woman who is concerned about keeping her marriage intact and making you happy. She smiles at you, tells you she loves you, has weekend sex and still goes to the one place in this world that you do not want her to go to and sees the one person in the world that you do want her to see. AND, she let you go reluctantly. Hopefully when you have had enough, you will still be sane. I can't for the life of me see how you don't see and feel her disrespect for you.

[2sunny]

I'm super sorry to point this out but I feel like the affair is just ongoing but underground.

 

It's her behavior that leads me to have that conclusion.

 

Have you placed a voice activated recorder in her purse yet?

 

I still have this nagging feeling she's doing things she doesn't intend for you to find out. I think it's beyond time to see what she may be saying to someone else while you're not with her. Put it in her purse.

 

I'm not big on spying - but since it seems like she's never going to give you her total honesty you have every right to find out what she's thinking.

[Owl]

NH...here's the problem. His method 'assumes' she has an interest in repairing the damage done by her affair...which is not the case at all in your situation.

 

There's no remorse, no regret, no acceptance for responsibility of her actions.

 

There's no desire to admit that there was damage done by her affair.

 

How does he plan on getting her to the point where she's willing to repair the damage she's done? That's the part that seems to be missing here.

 

Or even on that "broader level plan"...your wife isn't willing to participate in working to fix anything. She's not willing to admit that SHE has any changes to make at all.

 

HOW does he plan on getting her to that point before you lose interest in trying to rebuild the marriage/pay him for this advice?

 

HOW does he plan on getting her to attend?

 

IF his plan all hinges on getting her willing cooperation...his plan's first step has to be how to get that cooperation.

 

Otherwise your wasting time and money.

[Ninja'sHusband]

NH...here's the problem. His method 'assumes' she has an interest in repairing the damage done by her affair...which is not the case at all in your situation.

 

There's no remorse, no regret, no acceptance for responsibility of her actions.

 

There's no desire to admit that there was damage done by her affair.

 

How does he plan on getting her to the point where she's willing to repair the damage she's done? That's the part that seems to be missing here.

 

Or even on that "broader level plan"...your wife isn't willing to participate in working to fix anything. She's not willing to admit that SHE has any changes to make at all.

 

HOW does he plan on getting her to that point before you lose interest in trying to rebuild the marriage/pay him for this advice?

 

HOW does he plan on getting her to attend?

 

IF his plan all hinges on getting her willing cooperation...his plan's first step has to be how to get that cooperation.

 

Otherwise your wasting time and money.

Yup, and that's why I don't plan on doing anymore Harley sessions unless my W is part of it...or it's her solo session.

 

I'm going to talk to her about it 1 more time this week. I'm also waiting to see if OM comes back knowing I'm there now.

 

If she is not going to do anything..and if OM is there again on Fri, I'll expose to sensei at least this weekend. I actually tried to call OMW yesterday to warn her I was thinking of that. She didn't answer though...and I had to hear his accursed voice on the answering machine D= I called from work, so caller ID wouldn't tell it was me...though they could possibly guess it was me. I might try to call her again. I'm dying to know where she stands in all of this. It kills me that I put together all that info for her and I still haven't heard anything 2 months later.

[Ninja'sHusband]

HAH!!! Look what I found!

 

 

Exposure: When Should An Affair Be Exposed? - Marriage Builders® Forums

 

tidbits from it:

I know from my own counseling with Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers around D-day that she was very careful, almost reticent, about exposure. I KNOW that she was NOT for exposing to the world, and I believe all the Harleys were in some stage of reconsidering it. I think someone on the Forum quoted Steve Harley as saying he was more conservative than his dad about this issue, and even his dad was reconsidering it.

 

Dr. Harley’s answer to Forum member’s questions:

 

It’s true that I have only addressed the issue of exposure on Marriage Builders® Radio and on the private Forum that is only available to those who attend the Marriage Builders® Weekend. So here goes my definitive answer that will help explain what may seem as contradictions from both Steve Harley and Jennifer Harley Chalmers.

 

There you go, there's dissension among the Harleys on this.

[Ninja'sHusband]

HAH!!! Look what I found!

 

Tidbits from an article I found:

I know from my own counseling with Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers around D-day that she was very careful, almost reticent, about exposure. I KNOW that she was NOT for exposing to the world, and I believe all the Harleys were in some stage of reconsidering it. I think someone on the Forum quoted Steve Harley as saying he was more conservative than his dad about this issue, and even his dad was reconsidering it.

 

Dr. Harley’s answer to Forum member’s questions:

 

It’s true that I have only addressed the issue of exposure on Marriage Builders® Radio and on the private Forum that is only available to those who attend the Marriage Builders® Weekend. So here goes my definitive answer that will help explain what may seem as contradictions from both Steve Harley and Jennifer Harley Chalmers.

 

There you go, there's dissension among the Harleys on this.

[Bellechica]

NH.....I hate to say it but I think she is still longing for him. In some ways she might be a lot like me....sorry, I know you don't want to hear that. Quiting the OM is hard when there is still contact and she is choosing contact.

[Ninja'sHusband]

NH.....I hate to say it but I think she is still longing for him. In some ways she might be a lot like me....sorry, I know you don't want to hear that. Quiting the OM is hard when there is still contact and she is choosing contact.

Hard for me to know through the lies... there are other understandable reasons she clings to this dojo (posted before)...but every second I get more resolve to just expose this damn thing and watch where the pieces fall. I've done my plan A. It worked. She's back in the M. Seems kinda sadistic to get her back in love w\me and the effing knife her in such a way..but she's knifing me every week and it has to stop! And now is the perfect time, if she's like to stay it's now, after I've wooed her back.

 

My knife is simply the truth, and the truth is good no matter how painful. The other way is filing for D, which I don't want, she doesn't want, and my daughter most definitely doesn't want. D will hurt all of us in much worse ways than me telling the truth. Aggggg F Steve...

 

patience...patience. I'm giving things until Saturday...then I'm am so set. This **** is coming out. If she D's me after that, the D and the A are on her. All I did was tell the truth and it's the right thing to do for sure.

[Bellechica]

How is the intimacy with her NH? Is she doing loving things for you?

[Ninja'sHusband]

How is the intimacy with her NH? Is she doing loving things for you?

Everyday stuff yes. Being a good fun companion, keeping care of the house, cooking, sex, and recently saying she loved me. It's feeling more and more like it's supposed to...except with OM bursting his evil head into my life and her providing the means for it to happen.

 

Apart from seeing OM at the dojo on Fri, the last 2 weeks have been our best in a long time. Feels kinda wrong to destroy it all(hopefully temporarily), I just know it's not sustainable for me.

[Bellechica]

She should tell you she loves you everyday. I think if she knows that it's killing you inside that age goes to the dojo and OM is there then she should not go. She should do anything you ask.....

[Ninja'sHusband]

She should tell you she loves you everyday. I think if she knows that it's killing you inside that age goes to the dojo and OM is there then she should not go. She should do anything you ask.....

I wish she'd do that, and tell me she was truly sorry every day ='(

[Bellechica]

Have you told her about what everyone in your "support group" is saying? Even me.....the one living the lie believes she needs to do more. You're giving so much when she is the one who should give to you.

[drifter777]

My knife is simply the truth, and the truth is good no matter how painful. The other way is filing for D, which I don't want, she doesn't want, and my daughter most definitely doesn't want. D will hurt all of us in much worse ways than me telling the truth. Aggggg F Steve...

 

As Jack Nicholson would say, "you can't handle the truth!" Saving your marriage has been a lost cause for months and you continue to live in a fantasy world.

 

Your wife has demonstrated through her behavior that she doesn't want to stay married. You are not saving your daughter from anything by continuing to live a lie. You've said over and over that you don't think the current situation with you and your wife is affecting your daughter at all because you hide it so well. I don't believe that it is possible to hide what is going on from her no matter how hard you try.

 

It takes courage to do the right thing. Do you honestly think staying in your current situation is the right thing? Believe me, I know that the idea of leaving your marriage and starting a new life is terrifying. I know that right now you cannot imagine a life without your wife. You need to (finally) take a leap of faith that life will get better when you leave this dead, hollow shell of a marriage behind. You care so deeply for your daughter I can't see that a divorce would affect her as much as the high stress, high tension atmosphere you are subjecting her to now. Being a good father is not dependent on you living with her mother.

[2sunny]

NH...here's the problem. His method 'assumes' she has an interest in repairing the damage done by her affair...which is not the case at all in your situation.

 

There's no remorse, no regret, no acceptance for responsibility of her actions.

 

There's no desire to admit that there was damage done by her affair.

 

How does he plan on getting her to the point where she's willing to repair the damage she's done? That's the part that seems to be missing here.

 

Or even on that "broader level plan"...your wife isn't willing to participate in working to fix anything. She's not willing to admit that SHE has any changes to make at all.

 

HOW does he plan on getting her to that point before you lose interest in trying to rebuild the marriage/pay him for this advice?

 

HOW does he plan on getting her to attend?

 

IF his plan all hinges on getting her willing cooperation...his plan's first step has to be how to get that cooperation.

 

Otherwise your wasting time and money.

 

This is all very true.

 

Since there no admitting that things need to CHANGE (from HER end) - you can expect NO CHANGE.

 

But - you CAN only expect change IF IT COMES FROM YOU.

 

She obviously likes the status quo as for now - which is part of what makes me suspicious that she's still in contact with her OM.

 

You're somewhat "off her back" and she's keeping you quiet with playing pretty wife - getting sex- and NOT having to DO everything you require! The perfect situation to resume her affair... Of course it means you need to not notice certain nuances - ones you won't notice since she's over accommodating and overcompensating "enough" to where you won't dig deeper and find her little loophole.

 

Affair partners always have backup plans and plan for "that loophole".

 

She's banking on you not digging into the fine details to see "her evidence" that it has resumed.

 

I think the OM's wife may be a good source at this point!

 

She may be capable of providing some info you can deem useful.

 

 

You can spend money on counseling. It will be useful money spent if you go at it with the idea of becoming the best YOU you can possibly be (wih or without your W). A divorce is more costly than counseling! ;-)

 

Improving yourself will NEVER be wasted money!!!

 

The counselors you've been using aren't helping - so I'd suggest changing therapists. Harley isn't the ONLY one who can help you. We've all been in YOUR SHOES... Life experiences counts for a lot. I can tell you what worked for me and what didn't. We all know it's up to YOU to make decisions that are in your best interest. Don't knock us for throwing out there our truth and what we've lived through - there's value in what everyone here has experienced.

 

It's best to honor yourself and to NOT allow her to dishonor YOU.saying NO has value.

 

Since she says she lives you - it would be nice if she had further action and growth that showed that EVIDENCE by becoming WILLING to repair the damage she's done. It's not YOURS to fix.

 

If your wife makes a decision NOT to improve HERSELF - then all she's offering you is her same OLD cheating self. If that's the case - YOU DESERVE BETTER. No need to settle! Love yourself enough to not settle.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Have you told her about what everyone in your "support group" is saying? Even me.....the one living the lie believes she needs to do more. You're giving so much when she is the one who should give to you.

Yes I have. I told her I have a whole crowd of people screaming at me to leave her. She just doesn't answer. She once told me she's just waiting for that other shoe to drop. Well it may just drop. I'm actually a little afraid for myself if I tell sensei...she's gonna go nuts...but I've been surprised before. She wasn't mad at all when she found out I had contacted OMW. When I told FIL, he already knew.

[2sunny]

Everyday stuff yes. Being a good fun companion, keeping care of the house, cooking, sex, and recently saying she loved me. It's feeling more and more like it's supposed to...except with OM bursting his evil head into my life and her providing the means for it to happen.

 

Apart from seeing OM at the dojo on Fri, the last 2 weeks have been our best in a long time. Feels kinda wrong to destroy it all(hopefully temporarily), I just know it's not sustainable for me.

 

Intimacy on a high level is a working part of the mind.

 

KNOW that persons mind - having the ultimate trust in them, with them and for them - and knowing they have your back at EVERY turn is my description of intimacy. A connection of mind, body and soul (spirit).

 

There's no way to have that wih her when she's stabbed you in the back and hasn't even bothered to take the knife out!

 

In fact, she's still twisting and turning that knife however SHE pleases.

 

I don't call what you have intimacy - what you have is still blatant betrayal. Betrayal with more coverup from your wife to make it appear all pretty.

 

But she thinks you're buying into it!

 

Mainly because you keep changing your guidelines - your boundary.

 

You're probably confusing her into thinking you're ok with it the way it is right now.

 

That's the idea a spouse gets when the betrayed one smiles while he's being screwed over..."he's ok with it because he's no longer complaining about the pain I caused".

 

Either that or "I hope I can spoil him more so he won't notice that I'm doing what I want to do".

[Artie Lang]

Even me.....the one living the lie believes she needs to do more.

 

All you need to do is tell the truth, Belle.

 

 

Ninja, i think you're wife is just waiting you out. hoping you initiate divorce, so she can point to you as the person who broke-up the family. this paints her in better light to others. just my opinion.

[Bellechica]

Artie may be right about her being able to say you initiated the D but everyone would understood why he would.

[stillwater]

Honestly Ninja, everything your W is doing sounds like what I was doing when xgf got suspicious, before I fessed up. Doing just enough to keep her at bay, but refusing to do the one thing that could have made a difference -- stopped contact. If I had been 100% committed to fixing things, I would have gone NC without hesitation. (No, I'm not proud)

 

That's because she wants his wife to know, hoping his wife will divorce him. She may have already kicked him out and filed for divorce for all you know.

 

Yup. Had my xgf contacted MW's H I wouldn't have cared a bit.

[2sunny]

Here's my truth - you deserve better NH!

 

What your D has is a role model for how a woman is when she lies, cheats and steals the heart of her husband and the core of the family! That's NOT a good role model. She may be pretending and covering up - but it would hold more value for your daughter to learn a valuable life lesson from both of you. She COULD BE learning how to repair things when we cause harm and damage relationships. She could be a witness to honor and strength. But that's not possible because your wife isn't doing any of it. What's she's showing your daughter is how to pretend, how to get her way, how to manipulate and control. How to get away with disrespecting men and how NOT to honor a marriage. How to use men for what she wants. How to get YOU to do what YOU don't want to DO just to stay married to HER. How to mistreat men.

 

Your daughter deserves a better role model of what a woman is - a woman of substance and honor! She IS watching. Kids don't miss much. She may not say anything - but kids FEEL emotional situations and energy at a higher frequency than adults - mainly because they don't have the cluttered mind we do as adults.

 

Yes - this affects her... But it's more likely a negative affect at this point given the circumstances of watching Dad sacrifice his integrity just to stay with "perfect Mom"