Boundary setting question

[Ninja'sHusband]

And I do find value in Belle's input. Even if she never speaks her truth to her H - she COULD make amends ( to change or set things right) just with her NEW behavior and actions from here moving forward.

 

Actions carry a lot more merit than empty words. (empty words meaning IF there's no action to backup the words spoken).

 

Actually, it's BHs and WWs that tend to have more relevance to this discussion... They have more experience with this specific situation. I think the genders make kindof a huge difference. You BWs come off so damn angry and vengeful...I've learned that kinda thing just doesn't work here. Maybe it does with WHs..."Love Must Be Tough" is all about that. Interesting that zero WHs have posted in this thread (I don't think anyway)

 

A lot of Bhs are pretty angry too

[2sunny]

She didn't learn at the dojo the first time she had a consequence.

 

What makes you think she's gonna change anything new this time? Especially when she's not willing to change herself... But expects everyone else to do the change for her.

[2sunny]

Actually, it's BHs and WWs that tend to have more relevance to this discussion... They have more experience with this specific situation. I think the genders make kindof a huge difference. You BWs come off so damn angry and vengeful...I've learned that kinda thing just doesn't work here. Maybe it does with WHs..."Love Must Be Tough" is all about that. Interesting that zero WHs have posted in this thread (I don't think anyway)

 

A lot of Bhs are pretty angry too

 

I post with YOUR best interest in mind for the best possible outcome (from a healthy perspective).

 

You may not see it at this time while you're in the chaos - but it true! I have your back. I've been in your shoes. I've survived and came out the other end happy now for the past 4-1/2 years. I had 2 years after the D when I nearly drank myself to death out of depression - had a stroke while drinking. Haven't had a drop or a pill at all in almost 41/2 years.

 

I am the one who shouldn't even be alive! I have a hard time watching nice people lose the beauty of themselves over living someone who doesn't behave in a loving manner.

 

I love to encourage people to honor self and the ones they love.

 

I am a warrior now... I lived being a victim for 46 years of my life - NO MORE!

 

And I can spot a victim a mile away! I need YOU to warrior up man! She's got YOU by the balls - but you are ALLOWING it all!

 

I post with the intent to help YOU restore some balance to your life - by taking back some of the power you continue handing to her.

[2sunny]

Keep in mind MANY anonymous people READ here but never post. Your situation is helping many more than you think...don't underestimate how many people can learn from all of what you are experiencing.

 

Many of us post here - not only for you to see and use the info - but for MANY more than what you can possibly imagine.

[Wanderer25]

This is EXACTLY why I want NC! I think my WW is totally naive.

 

BS mistake 101. Naivety is the least of her characteristics. Manipulation, yes.(Remember how she reacted when she got rejected from the University)

[2sunny]

By NOT leaving this time when she cheated - its more that you have GIVEN her permission to keep doing whatever she wants just by not leaving her.

 

She doesn't think you are believable - she doesn't think you will ever leave her "perfect self" - she thinks she's above the normal rules that most people have for decency and honor.

 

I have to ask - how could you possibly live her whe. She purposely hurt you this much? Not only once but twice - yet you are intent to stay no matter how bad her behavior is... It's unbelievable that you don't think you deserve more/better than that...

[whichwayisup]

Actually, it's BHs and WWs that tend to have more relevance to this discussion... They have more experience with this specific situation. I think the genders make kindof a huge difference. You BWs come off so damn angry and vengeful...I've learned that kinda thing just doesn't work here. Maybe it does with WHs..."Love Must Be Tough" is all about that. Interesting that zero WHs have posted in this thread (I don't think anyway)

 

A lot of Bhs are pretty angry too

 

I'm not bitter at all. Not one bit. Like Sunny, I'm just trying to help you.

[Wanderer25]

Retyping since I cannot edit my comment

 

This is EXACTLY why I want NC! I think my WW is totally naive.

 

BS mistake 101. Naivety is the least of her characteristics.

 

Manipulative, oh yeah!!.

 

Remember how she reacted when she got rejected from the University.

 

Remember how sorry you were feeling for her when she confessed to being pregnant instead of being devastated.

 

It is all about her. You don't matter much

 

Read again what she did in your own words. You would understand better if it wasn't your own story.

[2sunny]

BS mistake 101. Naivety is the least of her characteristics. Manipulation, yes.(Remember how she reacted when she got rejected from the University)

 

Yep.

 

I will get my way. I will get my way. I will get my way.

 

I don't want to have to pay. I don't want to have to pay. I don't want to have to pay.

 

 

How can I make sure I get my way and make sure I don't have to pay? Oh ya, I have my husband for that...

[2sunny]

nH - WWIU has been a solid voice of reasoning here for a long time. I hope you will find value in the help she's giving to you. It's a privilege to those that she helps!

 

She helped me when I was very broken. We all need friends that are as reasonable as she is. Shell have your back if you listen to her input.

[2sunny]

Yep.

 

I will get my way. I will get my way. I will get my way.

 

I don't want to have to pay. I don't want to have to pay. I don't want to have to pay.

 

 

How can I make sure I get my way and make sure I don't have to pay? Oh ya, I have my husband for that...

 

And IF hubby doesn't do it - I have my backup plan - Daddy will agree with me no matter what - and he'll give me my way. I was trained to get my way with men.

[Bellechica]

NH, I can't remember if it has been posted here, but has the paternity of the baby been determined? I have a specific reason for asking.....

[Artie Lang]

Alice, are you ever gonna post your story here?

 

i, and i think many of us here, am curious to know how you came about being here.

 

are you a betrayed spouse?

 

 

sorry for the t/j.

[turnera]

NH, do you have passwords to her phone and computer?

[Owl]

NH...she cheated before, word got to her sensei, and she was barred from the dojo.

 

Now, she cheated again...this time at the dojo...and she warns you that 'exposing' there would be bad. Why do YOU think that is? Personally I think she's right...it would be bad for her. She'd get barred...AGAIN.

 

Tell you the truth here...I think I'm the guy here on LS who coined the "twice a cheater" paraphrase.

 

She's done this to you TWICE.

 

This isn't a mistake...it's an indicator of her character.

 

I retract my advice. Don't waste time trying to seek out counseling. There's no basis to rebuild from here. She's simply NOT marriage material.

 

Sorry to be so blunt and rude, but that's what I feel. Your best bet at this point would be to focus on the fastest, best for you divorce you can manage.

[2sunny]

Nothing compares to advice given here from people's own life experience on what has worked and what hasn't worked to re establish a healthy marriage - OR when it's obvious that it just isn't going to work out in a healthy manner.

 

Heck, some marriages do work out here when we all think they might not. But that many times involves one spouse who is totally willing to give up the beauty of themselves in order to try to make their partner happy.

 

Sacrificing all of yourself to make her happy - when she's just never going to be happy with just you - isn't what a healthy M looks like.

 

Sacrificing self at too great a level indicates a poor boundary. That's something to work on in counseling.

[Bellechica]

NH.....these things I'm about to tell you might hurt you and I apologize to you in advance. I really don't wish you pain, but your wife seems like me in some ways. I also am a "daddy's girl". Throughout my marriage, my father has given us cars, money, trips. (I think he would disown me though if he knew what I've done to my H...that's just an aside).

 

The thing is, the only man who has ever called me out on my selfishness is the OM. He once said lovingly, "you're such a spoiled, dirty little girl". I think the void he filled was me needing a man to take control of me, to call the shots, to stand up and take charge. I felt protected by him.

You're wife has a void that the OM fills.....maybe she needs to be called out on being a spoiled bi**h. She needs to be TOLD what to do and she will just have to take it and like it.

 

The other day you said you were confused as to why I felt I was betraying the OM if I was with my H. Here is my destorted thinking: the OM is single and I asked him not to sleep around. I felt so loyal to him that sleeping with my H felt like I was betraying the OM.

Don't underestimate the feelings your wife my have for him. Those feelings don't disappear over night and seeing him is not good....

[2sunny]

I'm left wondering if your young daughter is biologically yours. I know it doesn't change whether or not you would parent and love her - but your wife isn't above ongoing cheating - and with her lack of character and morals would definitely pass a child off as being yours in order not to get caught.

[Wanderer25]

It's gotten lost in the thread, but my WW actually had a small thing with a dude 7 years ago (they kissed and talked about running away...she was high on vicodin and basically crippled at the time). The OMW had her H send a NC letter and it got sent to the sensei.

 

Wow.... Looks like she is looking for exit affairs through out the marriage. You don't plan to run away on a whim with a guy you kissed once or twice. And it is not a small thing. Talk about minimalizing. Denial at its finest. God help you.

[Ninja'sHusband]

In addition to the email I sent her on Saturday(which told her all is not well, and I cannot sustain being around OM in class) I talked to her last night.

 

I asked her to meet with Harley..which of course isn't going to happen. She claimed she'll see our counselor, but I don't believe..looks like no attempt was made. I also told her I thought our counselor failed, not the first time I've told her this. I related the question about the dinner with the rapist or OM that Harley posed to me. She didn't really have anything to say, but I could tell from her expressions that she had the predictable WS response. I regard that whole conversation as a failure. We were both pretty calm throughout though it was tense. Oh and I told her this is serious and she responded tell me that she's "doing a lot". I acknowledged she's acting more like a normal W in general yes...but yeahhh...breaking NC...not good.

 

Belle, she did have a pretty sheltered life growing up. She was very very dependent and nonrisk taking when I met her. Her family is also highly conflict avoidant, while mine is the opposite. Someone mentioned I was probably emotionally abused by a female figure and abandoned by a male. Actually not too far off, though I love both my parents and don't feel that scarred by them. My mother used to yell a lot, then come crying and apologizing later. Pretty common ritual. They Ded when I was 5. Dad moved to another state a couple years later. I visited him for a month every year growing up.

 

So after having failed with threats of D to get her to quit class...we've recovered from the damage that caused. I tried exposing to OMW, seems to have failed. Next is exposing to sensei. I kinda wish I had done as Harley explains, expose all at once. Then you don't have to heal from multiple trauma =\ Oh well. I didn't understand what I do now, that it was a 4 month A, that she would rather D than quit, etc

 

One last shot. Lawyer thing is at 1:30.

[2sunny]

Wow.... Looks like she is looking for exit affairs through out the marriage. You don't plan to run away on a whim with a guy you kissed once or twice. And it is not a small thing. Talk about minimalizing. Denial at its finest. God help you.

 

He wants to believe what bull she tells him. No form of cheating is "a small thing" - especially when on espouse is willing to risk the M for this "small thing" - she should have been repairing that damage too- but she didn't then and isn't now.

 

Nothing about your W has changed... She just gets you to accept all her crap at a higher level.

 

She's not a wife - she's a cheat.

 

Start calling her by what she is...address her as she is " good morning my little cheat"

 

See how she reacts to being called out on what she IS? If she gets mad - she can only be mad at HERSELF for BEINH that!

 

Stop pretending! She's is NOT a nice wife! Act accordingly so she gets a clear idea that you aren't happy with her behavior!

 

When you act like its ok - it sends her a message that she's allowed to do more cheating. That's not ok!

 

Be mad! And allow her to know with clear and calm words what is not ok for you!

 

If she's not gonna change - then YOU are just choosing to live with a cheater!

 

 

If she doesn't intend to be faithful - then you have every right to tell her you don't intend to be focused and faithful to her anymore!

[2sunny]

In addition to the email I sent her on Saturday(which told her all is not well, and I cannot sustain being around OM in class) I talked to her last night.

 

I asked her to meet with Harley..which of course isn't going to happen. She claimed she'll see our counselor, but I don't believe..looks like no attempt was made. I also told her I thought our counselor failed, not the first time I've told her this. I related the question about the dinner with the rapist or OM that Harley posed to me. She didn't really have anything to say, but I could tell from her expressions that she had the predictable WS response. I regard that whole conversation as a failure. We were both pretty calm throughout though it was tense. Oh and I told her this is serious and she responded tell me that she's "doing a lot". I acknowledged she's acting more like a normal W in general yes...but yeahhh...breaking NC...not good.

 

Belle, she did have a pretty sheltered life growing up. She was very very dependent and nonrisk taking when I met her. Her family is also highly conflict avoidant, while mine is the opposite. Someone mentioned I was probably emotionally abused by a female figure and abandoned by a male. Actually not too far off, though I love both my parents and don't feel that scarred by them. My mother used to yell a lot, then come crying and apologizing later. Pretty common ritual. They Ded when I was 5. Dad moved to another state a couple years later. I visited him for a month every year growing up.

 

So after having failed with threats of D to get her to quit class...we've recovered from the damage that caused. I tried exposing to OMW, seems to have failed. Next is exposing to sensei. I kinda wish I had done as Harley explains, expose all at once. Then you don't have to heal from multiple trauma =\ Oh well. I didn't understand what I do now, that it was a 4 month A, that she would rather D than quit, etc

 

One last shot. Lawyer thing is at 1:30.

 

It does tell you that she believes she is "doing a lot" - I'd ask for her evidence!

 

What evidence does SHE have that SHE is doing the hard work to repair the damage SHE caused?

 

Just going to a crappy counselor who doesn't INVOKE CHANGE IN HER isn't enough!

 

She's not doing $hit!

 

She just expects you to believe that $hit she serves up to you... There's not one good reason to sit at THAT table anymore.

 

When YOU SAY NO - that's when the healing starts!

 

No more of your $hit!

[turnera]

Do you have her passwords?

[2sunny]

We are back to your original question... Setting a boundary.

 

Since we now know that the boundary you have set in the past hasn't worked - its time to set a new boundary.

 

From my experience - a tighter boundary brings more change rather than this loose boundary that hasn't brought the change you desired. The fact that she still calls the shots and says NO to everything you ask means she still holds ALL the power.

 

I'd start by never "asking her" again! Tell her! Tell her what she needs to do or not do - and tell her what you will do if she doesn't adhere by YOUR requirements.

 

My best suggestion is - if she's not willing to DO anything and everything you tell her to - then divorce her!

 

Yep, I said it! Since learning that she's a serial cheater I have changed my perspective on how YOU should approach this constantly cheating woman.

 

She doesn't deserve you! She's not willing to change or to accept the blame for what SHE'S created. And she doesn't ACT remorseful at all.

 

I don't care how nice and pretty she's pretending to be - its what she does behind your back that you'll never know. And once you have to worry about THAT - there's no way for your mind to be at rest as long as you stay.

 

Now - IF she gets COMPLETELY WILLING - in the face of not having any other options - we may have something to consider... But until then - there's nothing to do but cut her loose.

 

I don't think she'll become willing no matter what - mainly because her Dady is her backup rescue plan - and he will rescue her... Which means she won't ever get desperate enough to get willing to change.

 

And yes, expose to sensei (dojo). Consequences are what she needs. Give her the two biggest ones - divorce and exposure. Tell her it's all because of what she did - and what she's not doing to repair the damage she caused. All because she's NOT one bit willing.

[Bellechica]

NH, you have to tell her what YOU want. I think she is still in love with the OM and there is a part of her that wants a D because she thinks then the OM will leave his W and they can be together. She's fantasizing.

 

Tell her what she has to do so she wakes up and either does the work or quits. You're the one in charge NH.

I want your M to work and you're so good to forgive, but she has to love you enough to do everything you need.