Boundary setting question

[Ninja'sHusband]

I called OMW again because of you guys. Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you

 

She answered this time...it was so good to talk to her. there are tears streaming down my face. I need to go for yet another walk. I'll update more after I've collected myself...

[2sunny]

I called OMW again because of you guys. Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you

 

She answered this time...it was so good to talk to her. there are tears streaming down my face. I need to go for yet another walk. I'll update more after I've collected myself...

 

Good job taking action and following through, yay for you!!!

[Ninja'sHusband]

Phew....

 

So keep in mind here. OMW is a person directly involved in this situation. She is as she put it herself, "one of the good guys", so her opinion has more weight than just about anyone else's to me right now.

 

She had read the packet, as everyone including myself suspected.

 

She was very sweet, nice, understanding, soothing, and calm throughout. I was in worse shape than she was...even though she's only 2 months from Dday and I'm 6months out.

 

I told her I was thinking of telling sensei. She disagrees, saying that it will only bring more pain to everyone. She cannot make OM stop either. She says he's been going to this MA for 12 years. She feels comforted that I am in class. She said to do whatever I needed to do. She says OM doesn't want back in the A and doesn't believe he will do it. I said that I felt the same way about my WW. She expressed a gasp of relief at that. But I said that I thought they were both naive and I worry about it starting again inspite of their "intentions". She said she herself was naive and didn't think this could ever happen. For me, that's a given. All 4 of us were naive.

 

I expressed how good it was to talk to her, that I had been dying to hear where she stood. She told me I should have called earlier. I told her this was the 3rd time this week She apologized, said she hadn't been home much.

 

I expressed my fear of how she had reacted, that it could have gone many different ways, she might have hated me, felt grateful, or somewhere in between. She said it was pretty much all of the above and that at first she had indeed hated me. I guess we could have talked more, I would like to know more about how her feelings progressed, but it was clear that she wasn't angry with me now. She was so sweet and reassuring. I was very impressed. She is trying to work it out. She grills him when he gets home from events. She also told me he won't be in class for a while because OM is indeed still helping their kid with this big project. So he won't be there tonight...but this is not over. He will be coming back eventually.

 

So where do I stand now? I'm much less inclined to tell sensei if OMW doesn't want that. This directly affects her and I respect that.

 

I guess I have more thinking to do. I don't have to deal with OM tonight anyway. WW and I improve everyday in our attitudes. I guess I'll ride this out and heal for a little while. Maybe it will all come back and explode later...I don't care. Every day together as a happy family is the greatest gift I can give my daughter.

[jwi71]

Phew....

 

So keep in mind here. OMW is a person directly involved in this situation. She is as she put it herself, "one of the good guys", so her opinion has more weight than just about anyone else's to me right now.

 

She had read the packet, as everyone including myself suspected.

 

Goodand good to know she knows.

 

I told her I was thinking of telling sensei. She disagrees, saying that it will only bring more pain to everyone. She cannot make OM stop either. She says he's been going to this MA for 12 years. She feels comforted that I am in class. She said to do whatever I needed to do. She says OM doesn't want back in the A and doesn't believe he will do it. I said that I felt the same way about my WW. She expressed a gasp of relief at that. But I said that I thought they were both naive and I worry about it starting again inspite of their "intentions". She said she herself was naive and didn't think this could ever happen. For me, that's a given. All 4 of us were naive.

It is, of course, your choice but I do NOT agree with allowing your W and her OM to have ANY contact. It perpetuates the A. I would consider, since you do not seem inclined to tell the sensei, to have her join another class. And personally, just for the record, I would tell the sensei.

 

Actually...if you don't mind answering...why is telling the sensei going to cause pain to everyone? Whats the connection?

 

I expressed how good it was to talk to her, that I had been dying to hear where she stood. She told me I should have called earlier. I told her this was the 3rd time this week She apologized, said she hadn't been home much.

 

I expressed my fear of how she had reacted, that it could have gone many different ways, she might have hated me, felt grateful, or somewhere in between. She said it was pretty much all of the above and that at first she had indeed hated me. I guess we could have talked more, I would like to know more about how her feelings progressed, but it was clear that she wasn't angry with me now. She was so sweet and reassuring. I was very impressed. She is trying to work it out. She grills him when he gets home from events. She also told me he won't be in class for a while because OM is indeed still helping their kid with this big project. So he won't be there tonight...but this is not over. He will be coming back eventually.

Here's the problem I have with this. Because you allow the AP's to interact in the same environ that created, nourished and fostered the A...what's changed? Whats to prevent them from re-engaging? I find it suspect to believe that the APs, where they once failed to have good boundaries, will suddenly have good boundaries. Who's going to be watching? I mean, not to be rude, but they had an A to begin with...what's to stop them again?

 

Perhaps, more importantly, how does it affect YOU? Are you OK with his current and continued interaction with your W? Are you ok with them being training/sparring partners in class?

 

So where do I stand now? I'm much less inclined to tell sensei if OMW doesn't want that. This directly affects her and I respect that

I can respect that. But try not to allow the continued thoughts of others to "over-rule" thoughts and needs for YOU. If you must, toss the OMW under the buss and do what YOU think is right for YOU.

 

I guess I have more thinking to do. I don't have to deal with OM tonight anyway. WW and I improve everyday in our attitudes. I guess I'll ride this out and heal for a little while. Maybe it will all come back and explode later...I don't care. Every day together as a happy family is the greatest gift I can give my daughter.

OK. The plan is to wait. Now, I'm not a big fan of sitting on one's azz and doing zilch. What can YOU do to ACTIVELY improve YOURSELF and, presumably, your M?

 

How about MC?

 

Forgive me if its been previously asked...but why does your W cheat on you? Was it the same reason each time? Or did it change?

 

And the greatest gift you can give your daughter she already has: you love her. Do NOT confuse the R with your D and your M to your W. They are separate things and you, like many, continuously confuse the two.Your M is one thing. Your role as father is another. They have NOTHING in common. In fact, I would argue that remainging in an unhealthy M NEGATIVELY affects YOU and your role as father. But maybe another time we can go down that path.

 

Anyways...sounds like a productive call!!!

[2sunny]

I am so glad to hear about this progress. By your account, she seemed like a wonderful woman! Yay to have a new friend pulling for the best possible outcome!

[Ninja'sHusband]

Goodand good to know she knows.

 

It is, of course, your choice but I do NOT agree with allowing your W and her OM to have ANY contact. It perpetuates the A. I would consider, since you do not seem inclined to tell the sensei, to have her join another class. And personally, just for the record, I would tell the sensei.

I don't want them to have any contact either, and according to OMW there won't be for the next few weeks anyway.

Actually...if you don't mind answering...why is telling the sensei going to cause pain to everyone? Whats the connection?

These were the OMW's words. I can guess though.

It will cause WW and OMM pain for obvious reasons

It will cause me pain because my WW will be angry at me and our relationship will degrade badly.

I'm not sure what pain it will cause OMW. I think she's afraid her kids will find out. She said "it would destroy them". They are teens, 2 ofem.

 

Here's the problem I have with this. Because you allow the AP's to interact in the same environ that created, nourished and fostered the A...what's changed? Whats to prevent them from re-engaging? I find it suspect to believe that the APs, where they once failed to have good boundaries, will suddenly have good boundaries. Who's going to be watching? I mean, not to be rude, but they had an A to begin with...what's to stop them again?

 

Perhaps, more importantly, how does it affect YOU? Are you OK with his current and continued interaction with your W? Are you ok with them being training/sparring partners in class?

I am training there as well now. This will be my 3rd week. The class is non-interactive. no sparring, no contact, etc.

 

I'm still not ok with it...but sigh...

 

I can respect that. But try not to allow the continued thoughts of others to "over-rule" thoughts and needs for YOU. If you must, toss the OMW under the buss and do what YOU think is right for YOU.

OMW did say to do what I needed to. I'm very sure she was referring to telling sensei because we were still on that subject. She doesn't agree, but she wasn't like "I'LL F-ING KILL U IF YOU DO NO NO NO!" lol

 

OK. The plan is to wait. Now, I'm not a big fan of sitting on one's azz and doing zilch. What can YOU do to ACTIVELY improve YOURSELF and, presumably, your M?

 

How about MC?

IC for both WW and myself. Hopefully...WW will do it. I just sent mail a few minutes ago to setup an appt for myself. We've had a lot of counseling already btw, both IC and MC. We've both learned a lot. I've read like 15 books, she's read a few too. We have some better skills now I think, just...need...to...use...them...consistently....

 

Forgive me if its been previously asked...but why does your W cheat on you? Was it the same reason each time? Or did it change?

Blarg, the million dollar Q!

Here's some stuff:

7 years ago.

 

W had a knee injury, I had just started a new job. The first night I had left her in the middle of the night to get some work done because network had been down and I was going to miss some deadlines. She had told me she was going to be fine. Hadn't picked her Vicodin up yet cause the stores were closed. Turned out she WASN'T fine, she didn't sleep at all. Called me at 4AM and told me to go to this one store and get the prescription filled. I totally blew it, didn't get the meds, came home to get some sleep before we had to go back to the DR next day. This was a MASSIVE day for her. She has TONS of resentment for me over that night. I didn't get it how much pain she was in, I should have recognized the shock she was in and just forgotten about my work. The first time she cheated was about a week later during her recovery from surgery. I had gone back to work at her request. This dude from the dojo comes over to check on her. She was immobile (knee injury), completely high on Vicodin, and thought our M was over. Her anger over the night of the injury had rubbed off on me and I was angry with her because of her bad attitude. I didn't know where her attitude had come from. The next day she confessed she had kissed the guy. Eventually the OMW in this case had OM sent a NC letter, and he sent that letter to sensei as well. He was the higher ranking student so she got kicked out. She tried a few other dojos, but didn't like any of them. Eventually she quit that MA completely. I later found out they had talked about running away. I've snooped all her emails with this guy. The only sign of an A I could find anywhere was when he said, "I understand about you wanting to work things out with your H". I don't believe sex was even possible with her in the state she was in. I don't think they had been involved before that, there are no signs like with the current guy. I view the first betrayal as an unfortunate drug induced stupid act. It ranks waaaayyy below what's happened more recently...with her deliberately going to hotels and such. When I searched in a similar manner on this new thing, there was all kinds of evidence that just doesn't exist for what happened 7 years ago.

 

This time around...uuhhh...it went from

"I dunno, something is wrong with me, I'll go to counseling"

to

"I would have never cheated if we had a strong M, it was because of everything over the last 14 years!"

I call BS. I was because she has self esteem issues, is a conflict avoider, and is in the middle of a horrible MLC. This is based on things she's done and told me.

 

And the greatest gift you can give your daughter she already has: you love her. Do NOT confuse the R with your D and your M to your W. They are separate things and you, like many, continuously confuse the two.Your M is one thing. Your role as father is another. They have NOTHING in common. In fact, I would argue that remainging in an unhealthy M NEGATIVELY affects YOU and your role as father. But maybe another time we can go down that path.

I think we are still doing well around my daughter for the most part. We even to her to IC to see if she's ok. T said she seemed happy, no signs of damage or like she knows what's going on. We could setup another session though to probe deeper.

Anyways...sounds like a productive call!!!

Definitely! :) :) Very glad I made it.

[Steen719]

But I said that I thought they were both naive and I worry about it starting again inspite of their "intentions". She said she herself was naive and didn't think this could ever happen. For me, that's a given. All 4 of us were naive.

 

I am glad you feel better, but I want to ask you something. How are your W and the OM naive?

 

Synonyms

1. simple, unaffected, unsuspecting, artless, guileless, candid, open, plain.

 

I don't get this. Your wife is not guileless or innocent or open with you. She and the OM make a conscious effort to be secretive about their affair. She is the antithesis of this and so is OM. Maybe you and OM's wife are naive as you did not suspect them, but I don't understand how you and she can describe those two that way. I think you want to believe it, but really, how can someone who cheats be naive unless they do not have the mental capacity to understand ethics, morals and that lying is wrong.

[Artie Lang]

Broom > Sweep > Rug . . . times two BS.

 

yup.

 

 

Ninja, i'm all for you guys(both parties) patching things up and moving forward. but, i can't fight the feeling that you guys just want this to go away without any of the WS's dealing with concrete consequences.

 

they got to dip their hands in the cookie jar, and only got a stern warning.....not even a slap on the wrists.

 

anyway.....whatever makes you happy. you're the one who has to live with it.

[Ninja'sHusband]

I am glad you feel better, but I want to ask you something. How are your W and the OM naive?

 

Synonyms

1. simple, unaffected, unsuspecting, artless, guileless, candid, open, plain.

 

I don't get this. Your wife is not guileless or innocent or open with you. She and the OM make a conscious effort to be secretive about their affair. She is the antithesis of this and so is OM. Maybe you and OM's wife are naive as you did not suspect them, but I don't understand how you and she can describe those two that way. I think you want to believe it, but really, how can someone who cheats be naive unless they do not have the mental capacity to understand ethics, morals and that lying is wrong.

Yeah you are probably right. This A wasn't an "oopsie" mistake. It was actually VERY DELIBERATE. I shouldn't lie to myself. The way WW initially described it to me it could have been a momemtary lapse of judgement....but they friggin talked about it on an airplane first. The planned it out. They went to hotels....they went back to the dojo when everyone else was gone. It was as deliberate as it could get.

 

Thanks for calling me out on that. You are right.

[whichwayisup]

You and OM's wife should speak weekly either by phone or go for coffee. It's good for both of you to have a friend to talk to, compare notes and give support. JUST KEEP it simple..

 

I told her I was thinking of telling sensei. She disagrees, saying that it will only bring more pain to everyone. She cannot make OM stop either. She says he's been going to this MA for 12 years.

 

So, this guy puts his OWN reputation at risk by having an A and takes the chance of being kicked out, 12 years.. Well, so what. THAT is HIS consquence by not following class rules. Same goes with your wife. They BOTH knew (know) the rules of the dojo.

 

Anyway, keep your eyes open. The A may be over (physical part) but the EA (Emotional part) could continue if they are on the downlow. Though I DO hope for your sake and the OMW's sake that it is ALL over and that there is absolutely no contact, no seeing eachother, calls, or texts.

 

*Let's say things seem fine but your gut feels 'off' still.. Another way of checking up on her (at school etc) is to hire a PI to follow her for about a week or so. IF they are in ANY form of contact, the PI will know.*

[whichwayisup]

Yeah you are probably right. This A wasn't an "oopsie" mistake. It was actually VERY DELIBERATE. I shouldn't lie to myself. The way WW initially described it to me it could have been a momemtary lapse of judgement....but they friggin talked about it on an airplane first. The planned it out. They went to hotels....they went back to the dojo when everyone else was gone. It was as deliberate as it could get.

Thanks for calling me out on that. You are right.

 

ON YOUR DIME too! God, that pisses me off..Doesn't it piss you off?

 

That in itself is reason enough to tell the sensei. Fact they went back to the dojo when everybody else was gone just shows how little respect they both had for the place and the class.. They KNEW the rules..Your wife knew even more so since she was kicked out of one in the past..So why DO IT AGAIN???

[Artie Lang]

That in itself is reason enough to tell the sensei. Fact they went back to the dojo when everybody else was gone just shows how little respect they both had for the place and the class.. They KNEW the rules..Your wife knew even more so since she was kicked out of one in the past..So why DO IT AGAIN???

 

EXACTAMUNDO!!!

 

i mean....how much respect did they have for their "precious" sport, when they violated the sanctity of the dojo with their trysts.

 

they not only disrespected their spouses, but every one of their classmates, including sensei: they cheated on every single person there. for that, they need to reprimanded

Edited April 20, 2012 by Artie Lang

[Ninja'sHusband]

EXACTAMUNDO!!!

 

i mean....how much respect did they have for their "precious" sport, when they violated the sanctity of the dojo with their trysts.

 

they not only disrespected their spouses, but every one of their classmates, including sensei: they cheated on every single person there. for that, they need to reprimanded

Yes and if I rat them out to sensei this will be my primary focus.

 

The OM had a key to the dojo. He abused his priveledge and should never be given such again. DAMN! I should have asked OMW if he has a key to the new place. WW told me she thinks he doesn't...but she doesn't know for sure....and ya'know.....she lies.....

[whichwayisup]

Yes and if I rat them out to sensei this will be my primary focus.

 

The OM had a key to the dojo. He abused his priveledge and should never be given such again. DAMN! I should have asked OMW if he has a key to the new place. WW told me she thinks he doesn't...but she doesn't know for sure....and ya'know.....she lies.....

 

DO it. Holy crap, this is the smoking gun and the more I read, the more angry I am that not only the TRUST the sensei had in the OM to give him a key, HE took advantage of his own sensei! W..T..F. He made a fool of sensei and everybody in that class.

 

The embarrassment of this and the fallout "IS THE CONSQUENCE".

 

I do wonder if the OM knows that your wife had an A in the past and was kicked out of dojo once already..

[Ninja'sHusband]

DO it. Holy crap, this is the smoking gun and the more I read, the more angry I am that not only the TRUST the sensei had in the OM to give him a key, HE took advantage of his own sensei! W..T..F. He made a fool of sensei and everybody in that class.

 

The embarrassment of this and the fallout "IS THE CONSQUENCE".

 

I do wonder if the OM knows that your wife had an A in the past and was kicked out of dojo once already..

Oh God don't get me started on that.

[whichwayisup]

Oh God don't get me started on that.

Sorry NH. I can only imagine..

[Artie Lang]

I do wonder if the OM knows that your wife had an A in the past and was kicked out of dojo once already..

 

i wasn't aware that your wife had cheated before. this makes her a serial cheater.....you know that, right?

 

and still, you're rolling over again. OMFG!!!

[Ninja'sHusband]

DO it. Holy crap, this is the smoking gun and the more I read, the more angry I am that not only the TRUST the sensei had in the OM to give him a key, HE took advantage of his own sensei! W..T..F. He made a fool of sensei and everybody in that class.

 

The embarrassment of this and the fallout "IS THE CONSQUENCE".

 

I do wonder if the OM knows that your wife had an A in the past and was kicked out of dojo once already..

Do you remember that quote from my WW about what a "horror of a W" she was. How she I had held up a mirror to her and she was "horrified at what she saw"?

 

I had been screaming at her about this very subject that night. The same night I demanded she quit the dojo. The was the very peak of my anger over the last six month. Only the OM told me the story the way it really happened.

 

Remember I said the whole thing started because of a backrub in company of friends? Well...my WW actually got pissed at first. She berated OM for making subtle moves on her. She told him about what happened 7 years ago. She told him she got kicked out. Now here's one of the most :mad::mad::mad: things about all of this. OM says he would NEVER do that.... (like he knows what his BW is gonna pressure him to do) So after being reassured that her MA was secure...SHE DECIDED TO RISK HER M!!!!! This is what made me go completely ape **** that night....not only that but while I was processing that new info, she sends me email telling me she is exhausted and will tolerate no more questions or discussions (she actually was physically ill at the time) .... I went friggin bonkers. I called her from work asking her for how it REALLY started and that truth would be the only thing that would restore trust. I didn't give her much chance because of the email she had already sent not knowing I had new info (this was only 5 days after I learned it was a 4 month A). She still wouldn't tell me, so here I was walking around campus shouting FU! FU! FU! THERE'S NOTHING LEFT TO TELL! NO TRUTH LEFT EVERY CHANCE GONE! HOW CAN I EVER TRUST YOU? YOU SECURED YOUR *$&%(#$ MA AND PUT YOUR M A RISK!!!!!!! I AM NOT COMING HOME UNTIL YOU QUIT COMPLETELY!!!!

 

I've never been so friggin angry in my life.

[Ninja'sHusband]

i wasn't aware that your wife had cheated before. this makes her a serial cheater.....you know that, right?

 

and still, you're rolling over again. OMFG!!!

 

 

She kissed another dude while high on Vicodin 7 years ago. The most detailed account I've given so far is in this post:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-62.html#post3953518

[Artie Lang]

wow, Ninja. you've got a doozie on your hands my friend.

 

her boundaries are all shot to hell.

 

 

again....you might not believe it , but i am pulling for you and your marriage.

 

it's just that their cavalier attitude hints of smugness.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Artie Lang

[Ninja'sHusband]

wow, Ninja. you've got a doozie on your hands my friend.

 

her bounderies are all shot to hell.

 

Yeahh....this is something SHE needs to work on a lot. Every time I try to talk to her about boundaries she blows it off....blame shifting the A onto me. Her boundaries with other guys are just fine she says =\ Just not with OM... It's all my fault cause I drove her to it. Such total BS. I know I've screwed up multiple times in our M and I've apologized and worked with her on a lot of things...but I've finally come round on the "why" for the A. Selfish, low self esteem, conflict avoidance, stupidity, etc. If she has a problem with me an A is NOT the way to fix it...and I don't think that's what this was about anyway.

[turnera]

EXACTAMUNDO!!!

 

i mean....how much respect did they have for their "precious" sport, when they violated the sanctity of the dojo with their trysts.

 

they not only disrespected their spouses, but every one of their classmates, including sensei: they cheated on every single person there. for that, they need to reprimanded

THAT is worth telling sensei about. Given what MA is all about - respect and control - if I was that sensei I would be furious at their lack of respect and selfishness and lack of control.

 

Look at it this way: If he doesn't kick them both out, he will be (hopefully) using laserlike focus on them to TEACH them what his MA is really all about.

 

You would be doing her a favor.

[Ninja'sHusband]

THAT is worth telling sensei about. Given what MA is all about - respect and control - if I was that sensei I would be furious at their lack of respect and selfishness and lack of control.

 

Look at it this way: If he doesn't kick them both out, he will be (hopefully) using laserlike focus on them to TEACH them what his MA is really all about.

 

You would be doing her a favor.

I agree these are great reasons to tell.

 

But I just can't feel right about if OM is only showing up like once in a blue moon and if OMW doesn't agree with the strategy.

 

I may very well spill the beans at some later date. I think there's plenty of justification. But I'm gonna wait until OM is back in class like he's gonna be a regular again. If my WW and I are still there..and I start to blow my top...that will be the time to spill.

 

Maybe I'll talk to OMW about it some more at some point.

[turnera]

I've never been so friggin angry in my life.

Too bad you didn't STAY angry. You might be all restored marriage by now.

 

Now, you've just taught her that you'll never leave so she has free reign.

[turnera]

Yeahh....this is something SHE needs to work on a lot. Every time I try to talk to her about boundaries she blows it off....blame shifting the A onto me. Her boundaries with other guys are just fine she says =\ Just not with OM... It's all my fault cause I drove her to it. Such total BS. I know I've screwed up multiple times in our M and I've apologized and worked with her on a lot of things...but I've finally come round on the "why" for the A. Selfish' date=' low self esteem, conflict avoidance, stupidity, etc. If she has a problem with me an A is NOT the way to fix it...and I don't think that's what this was about anyway.[/quote']And you have taught her this...how?