Boundary setting question

[Bittersweetie]

Hi NH,

 

I've been reading your thread for a while and I hope it's not inappropriate that I comment as a WS.

 

I think you have every right to decide to R or not even make a decision yet. After d-day, my H didn't know what to do. He actually said to me, "I don't know what to do with you." He made the choice to wait for a time because he wanted to make sure he made the right decision for himself.

 

However...that did not mean I was in the free and clear. at all He had very specific expectations of me regardless of whether reconciliation was guaranteed or not. They included things like, complete transparency; texting when I went places; knowing all passwords; IC; etc.

 

And the main thing was, no contact with xOM in any way. If I contacted xOM, or he contacted me and I didn't inform H "immediately if not sooner," the decision would be made and R would not happen. I have no doubt that if I worked/had a class with/or interacted with xOM in any way that he would have demanded those interactions stop.

 

My point is, while you move toward R or even deciding whether to R, I don't think it is unreasonable to have expectations of your W and consequences of her actions. And to me, as a WW, doing those things above, were ways that I showed my H I was trying, that I wanted to be with him.

 

I don't know if this helps at all...just wanted to share my H's story.

 

B

[jwi71]

Just sent this to WW in email.

 

During my phone session(Harley) last week it was recommended we watch this video:

 

 

ehehe, dunno if she'll make it past the first few minutes...

 

Wait.

 

You are in "online MC"?

 

You are sending emails back and forth to your MC and spouse?

 

I would suggest, provided that is the case, that you and your WW attend MC in person (and at the same time). I'm not sure online MC is effective.

 

Does Dr Harley believe it is possible to recover a M when your WW still has contact with the OM?

 

What are you planning to do when the OM returns to the dojo?

Confront him?

Demand your WW quit then?

You quit?

Tell the sensei?

 

Or do you plan on having no plan and simply hope you don't react?

What if he smiles at your WW? Says "hi" to her? Smirks at you?

 

What is the status of your plan to move out? Still viable?

Or is it just a weapon to control your WW?

Have you, your WW and your attorney discussed custody and visitation?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Wait.

 

You are in "online MC"?

 

You are sending emails back and forth to your MC and spouse?

 

I would suggest, provided that is the case, that you and your WW attend MC in person (and at the same time). I'm not sure online MC is effective.

 

Does Dr Harley believe it is possible to recover a M when your WW still has contact with the OM?

 

What are you planning to do when the OM returns to the dojo?

Confront him?

Demand your WW quit then?

You quit?

Tell the sensei?

 

Or do you plan on having no plan and simply hope you don't react?

What if he smiles at your WW? Says "hi" to her? Smirks at you?

 

What is the status of your plan to move out? Still viable?

Or is it just a weapon to control your WW?

Have you, your WW and your attorney discussed custody and visitation?

No, I did two phone sessions with Harley. All our MC\IC has been in person except those 2 sessions. Harley recommended that video. The idea (Sunny) was to have someone besides myself say those things.

 

My plan when OM comes back is vague. I'll probably go and endure for a little bit, hoping WW will react to the crisis. I'm not going to be cool with that situation at all... If one or both of them don't quit, I'll probably end up telling sensei. I do feel like sensei has a right to know what one of his top students is doing\did... I'll probably give OMW a warning before I do, just like I did on Friday.

 

Oh and I've been around OM before since the A. Once a few months ago, and once 2 weeks ago. He never smirked or anything like that. We don't interact.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[SomedayDig]

Brother...sensei does have a right to know what happened. If this xOM is one of his top students, the amount of dishonor he has brought on the dojo is insurmountable IMO. I'm sorry to say that also applies to your WW. I'm still pulling for you, man.

[jwi71]

No' date=' I did two phone sessions with Harley. All our MC\IC has been in person except those 2 sessions. Harley recommended that video. The idea (Sunny) was to have someone besides myself say those things. [/quote']

 

Ah got it.

Does this imply that your current (in person) does NOT agree with the video?

Or, if your current MC and Harley agree, then the problem appears to be the WW hearing or agreeing or accepting it. If this is the case, do you have any ideas of how you can help her "hear it"?

 

My plan when OM comes back is vague. I'll probably go and endure for a little bit, hoping WW will react to the crisis. I'm not going to be cool with that situation at all...

 

What reaction do you hope for?

What reaction do you expect?

What reaction had your WW in his presence previously (after this all blew up I mean)

What reaction does she have TO you?

 

If one or both of them don't quit, I'll probably end up telling sensei. I do feel like sensei has a right to know what one of his top students is doing\did... I'll probably give OMW a warning before I do, just like I did on Friday.

 

Do you see how controlling and manipulative that is?

You wont tell if your WW does what you want but if she doesn't....

IMO, that is an unhealthy mechanism - a weapon. You tell not on an conditional basis but to save your sanity and ultimately your M (if it can be saved).

 

This thread's subject was on boundaries. Regarding that, what progress have you made? What boundaries now exist that once did not? Maybe a good exercise for you is to write down YOUR definition of a boundary. Maybe your WW can do the same. Might be interesting and/or fruitful for you (and your WW).

 

Perhaps a logical next step is for each of you to write a list of boundaries for the other, yourself and the M in general. Then compare.

 

Oh and I've been around OM before since the A. Once a few months ago, and once 2 weeks ago. He never smirked or anything like that. We don't interact.

 

Ok good.

 

You clearly have more patience/tolerance than I.

And on a personal note, had I been near my xWW's OM early on, I would have shot him. Now, though, Id have to buy him a beer and give him a heartfelt thanks. Funny how these things go huh?

[turnera]

My plan when OM comes back is vague. I'll probably go and endure for a little bit' date=' hoping WW will react to the crisis.[/quote']NH, this is passive aggressive bullchit. You're gonna HOPE that some 'issue' arises by him showing up and then HOPE that she'll look at the two of you and...choose you?

 

Do you see how incredibly wimpy that sounds?

 

GET A PLAN. And STICK TO IT.

 

Stop moping around and hoping that she'll take pity on you. Women HATE men who act like that. And often cheat on them.

[turnera]

What exactly do you think a boundary is, by the way? I'm curious if you know what it is you SAY you're trying to do.

[2sunny]

The guidelines and requirements DR Harley talks about for a cheating spouse are not being met by your wife - therefore what Harley describes in order to heal the M arent applicable at this point.

 

In that video he even states that the cheater needs to never EVER see or communicate with their AP again.

 

Other suggestions he makes aren't things your wife is willing to do to heal the pain she's causing you and the M.

[2sunny]

Asking as your happiness is based on what she is or isn't doing - you'll never be happy.

 

It IS like a drug addict - like Harley describes.

[findingnemo]

I admire you, NH. You know I do. I even admire the effort you're putting into making your WW see sense. I wish she could realize what she's throwing away. However, I worry that you are losing yourself in all this. You're doing way too much and your W knows that you just won't stop. But you know what? You can't bug her into doing the right thing. You can't force her to see the light. All the MC and Harleys are good when both parties want to R and when they accept to do whatever it takes.

 

So in the spirit of keeping the family intact (admirable and possible), disengage right now. Do your own thing. Put all this effort into yourself. Leave your W to her own devices and at some point in the future you will be 100 times better off. Either she'll change or you will. You shouldn't get a D for the sake of getting one. Just as you shouldn't R because that's expected of you. Stay in your M as it is but demand some minimum respect. Your W shouldn't do anything that affects you or the family. Set boundaries for yourself. What you will tolerate and what you will not stand in this crazy situation.

[Owl]

No, I did two phone sessions with Harley. All our MC\IC has been in person except those 2 sessions. Harley recommended that video. The idea (Sunny) was to have someone besides myself say those things.

 

My plan when OM comes back is vague. I'll probably go and endure for a little bit, hoping WW will react to the crisis. I'm not going to be cool with that situation at all... If one or both of them don't quit, I'll probably end up telling sensei. I do feel like sensei has a right to know what one of his top students is doing\did... I'll probably give OMW a warning before I do, just like I did on Friday.

 

Oh and I've been around OM before since the A. Once a few months ago, and once 2 weeks ago. He never smirked or anything like that. We don't interact.

 

I'm still of the opinion that what happened in the dojo needs to be reported to the sensei.

 

Regardless of your marriage...the environment that allowed this to happen and flourish needs to be changed. This kind of behavior is completely unacceptable in a dojo, most especially amongst upper belts who represent that dojo.

 

What they did was not only a violation of their marital vows...it was a violation of the dojo's honor. Of the honor of their "sport".

 

It needs to be dealt with.

 

Your wife needs to accept that as part of her choice to do what she did. It's got nothing to do with her marriage...it's got everything to do with being a 2nd dan black belt and a representative of her art, her dojo, and her instructor. She violated those things right along with her violation of your marriage.

 

OM and her both need to face the sensei for these violations.

 

If she loves her art, if she respects her art, the sport, the dojo, and her sensei...she'll demonstrate her honor and respect by being honest and forthcoming about her actions to the sensei.

 

If her honor, and the honor of her art, her dojo, her sensei, and the rank she's attained in this art mean anything to her, she'll do the right thing. If she doesn't...then she doesn't have the honor or respect to continue as an Iaidokan/aikidokan.

[drifter777]

 

...OM and her both need to face the sensei for these violations.

 

If she loves her art, if she respects her art, the sport, the dojo, and her sensei...she'll demonstrate her honor and respect by being honest and forthcoming about her actions to the sensei.

 

If her honor, and the honor of her art, her dojo, her sensei, and the rank she's attained in this art mean anything to her, she'll do the right thing. If she doesn't...then she doesn't have the honor or respect to continue as an Iaidokan/aikidokan.

 

Owl & OP: Something seems very wrong that it would be her honor for her sport that motivates her to do the right thing. What about the honor for NH, her daughter, and her marriage? Shouldn't that trump all else? The fact that it hasn't to this point is a condemnation of his WW. She is not doing nearly enough to deserve a chance to reconcile. NH will now come to her defense telling us about all the consequences she has suffered, but the bottom line is that she has always put her "art" ahead of her family. Forget about dishonoring her dojo, what about her dishonoring her family?

 

It is so frustrating to follow this thread. As I've said before, it's like a slow-motion car wreck and hard for us to look away.

 

NH: As you have been advised over and over again, take the first step and demand complete NC. That means NO CONTACT! Let HER deal with all the ramifications of her cheating.

 

Could you clear up a couple things for me? Is the Harley you are talking to a Doctor? Also, you don't really call your sessions with him "marriage" counseling do you? It seems like you are getting advice from him, but it's flawed because he can't understand the situation as he has never heard your wife's side of this. I hope you don't see it as a form of IC because your counselor doesn't even know you. He's just trying to encourage you by giving you the "party line" that represents the views sanctioned by his company.

[turnera]

I'm still of the opinion that what happened in the dojo needs to be reported to the sensei.

 

Regardless of your marriage...the environment that allowed this to happen and flourish needs to be changed. This kind of behavior is completely unacceptable in a dojo, most especially amongst upper belts who represent that dojo.

And if I OWNED that dojo, I would be furious at OM. Not so much at your wife, cos I think most men just assume they can sweettalk a women into bed.

 

But if it was my business, I would be scalding mad, especially that others knew and never told me! This is his livelihood! What if others knew and left the dojo because they didn't want to be in a place that allowed it?

[Owl]

Owl & OP: Something seems very wrong that it would be her honor for her sport that motivates her to do the right thing. What about the honor for NH, her daughter, and her marriage? Shouldn't that trump all else? The fact that it hasn't to this point is a condemnation of his WW. She is not doing nearly enough to deserve a chance to reconcile. NH will now come to her defense telling us about all the consequences she has suffered, but the bottom line is that she has always put her "art" ahead of her family. Forget about dishonoring her dojo, what about her dishonoring her family?

 

 

I agree with you.

 

But at this point, I'd say that it very clearly does appear that she's more concerned with her ability to continue on at this dojo than she is about her family or her husband.

 

I would agree with you that this is a definite indication of some major problems.

 

In truth...it appears to me that NH is still unsure about the idea of bringing this all up to the sensei...so I simply gave hime a few more compelling reasons to do so. I have no expectations whatsoever that his wife or the OM is going to VOLUNTARILY bring this up to the sensei...not at all.

[Owl]

And if I OWNED that dojo, I would be furious at OM. Not so much at your wife, cos I think most men just assume they can sweettalk a women into bed.

 

But if it was my business, I would be scalding mad, especially that others knew and never told me! This is his livelihood! What if others knew and left the dojo because they didn't want to be in a place that allowed it?

 

Odds are, the sensei owns the dojo.

 

And if I were the sensei and owner, I'd be FURIOUS at both of them. They're both adults, and both black belts. As adults, they're expected to behave as adults, not as a couple of frisky teenagers. As black belts, they're a representative of the dojo, and the art. By doing what they did at the dojo, they dishonered themselves, the art, and the dojo. Quite frankly, I'd expect them to be stripped of their rank and recognition as black belts in that art, and expelled from the dojo.

[whichwayisup]

And if I OWNED that dojo, I would be furious at OM. Not so much at your wife, cos I think most men just assume they can sweettalk a women into bed.

 

But if it was my business, I would be scalding mad, especially that others knew and never told me! This is his livelihood! What if others knew and left the dojo because they didn't want to be in a place that allowed it?

 

Both deserve equal anger. This is the SECOND TIME she has done something like this in dojo - Last time she was kicked out of class..So, she isn't so innocent in this, it's not like the OM totally manipulated her and she didn't know it was wrong. She did this willingly.

[Owl]

Now...if she gets booted out of this dojo, I would expect her to be angry/furious/etc...

 

It's clearly something she's put a lot of time and effort into.

 

BUT...I'd also clearly spell out to her that this is a result of HER ACTIONS...not because NH "told on her", but because SHE BEHAVED INAPPROPRIATELY AS A BLACK BELT AT THAT DOJO.

 

Make the distinction clear.

 

She'll be angry for a while...but it will serve the purpose of removing OM completely from her life. Either she'll continue to work on the marriage once she gets over her anger...or she won't. But if she continues to go to the same dojo where OM goes...any effort to rebuild the marriage by NH will remain equally useless.

 

If she didn't want this to happen...quite simply, she shouldn't have gotten involved with OM at the dojo.

 

It ain't rocket science.

[Owl]

I'd suggest that we just all remain respectful and polite...as insults are a violation of the TOS?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Both deserve equal anger. This is the SECOND TIME she has done something like this in dojo - Last time she was kicked out of class..So, she isn't so innocent in this, it's not like the OM totally manipulated her and she didn't know it was wrong. She did this willingly.

This isn't correct. We are talking about 2 different MAs, senseis, dojos. 7 years ago the kiss didn't happen in the dojo. My W was crippled and high on Vicodin at that time.

 

This time, I dunno how many times it happened in the dojo.. DAMN, just realized I don't have proof that it happened there =( I thought OM had admitted it in email, but I think my WW volunteered that info while talking to her. I can't find anything in writing.

 

Sensei does not own the dojo. That's one of the problems. They've since switch places, and will likely switch again soon. I don't believe OM has a key right now.

[Owl]

Doesn't really matter if he owns the dojo or not.

 

The issue is that it happened on his watch, by black belts under him.

 

As far as proof...tell him your wife told you it happened that way. Done.

 

If he believes it or not is totally out of your control. If he insists on proof, tell him to question his black belts. If they lie/deny, that's on him to figure out on his own. You'll have done your due diligence.

 

But remind him...why would you come to him with this information if it were false? You gain nothing but your wife's enmity if you were lying...but your goal here is to get her to stop spending time in the same dojo as OM. It's that simple. Be honest and up front. If he refuses to take action or do anything...that's out of your control, but you'll have tried. You'll also still have the ability to take it "up the chain", as her sensei has someone HE reports to if he doesn't own the dojo.

 

It's all about lineage in martial arts...take it up to HIS sensei.

[Owl]

I don't think in such a situation it makes a lot of sense to talk about what his wife needs. I think it makes more sense to advise the betrayed spouse to figure out what actions they are going to take in various alternatives without making the assumption that they are going to influence the wayward spouse. Just accept the wayward spouse's behavior for what it is with no illusion of any power to change it.

 

This is a world of free will. None of us really can change another's behavior short of coercion.

 

So I think what the BS needs to do, with an uncooperative WS, is to decide how they want to live and what they need to do without making an assumption that the WS's current behavior is going to change.

 

NH has a wayward spouse who is unwilling to cut off all contact with OM and wants to continue going to karate classes where he might be. She has said this and she has been very clear about it. There is a chance she is secretly continuing the affair or wants to try to do so.

 

She is absolutely entitled to act as she pleases. Nothing she is doing is illegal as far as we know. That is the frustration faced by the BS in this situation. These are two people who happen to be married and connected by years of history together, and by a mutual child, but who want totally different things and are moving in totally different directions in their lives.

 

I am not sure why so much effort needs to be put into pretending otherwise. No one really even needs a reason to get divorced anymore.

 

It is fine to remain married to a WS but at a certain point there has to be a recognition that reconciliation can't work unless both people are fully invested in it.

 

I agree with this. Pretty spot on, really.

 

NH has the responsibility to inform his wife of what he will and will not tolerate within his marriage to her, and what the consequences are likely to be if she chooses to continue her actions.

 

Then she's got the choice. NH simply responds as needed based off of what his relationship with her is as a result. It's either acceptable because she wanted to maintain it and changed her behavior...or it's not, and NH then takes action to end it.

 

And I agree for the most part...both parties have to be WILLING and WANT TO reconcile in order for reconciliation to happen. But...the WS often isn't willing in the initial stages immediately after d-day. There's often a period of confusion on their part that needs to be sorted through first before they finally "make up their minds" one way or another.

[findingnemo]

And if I OWNED that dojo, I would be furious at OM. Not so much at your wife, cos I think most men just assume they can sweettalk a women into bed.

 

But if it was my business, I would be scalding mad, especially that others knew and never told me! This is his livelihood! What if others knew and left the dojo because they didn't want to be in a place that allowed it?

 

I haven't commented on this whole dojo thing because I'm confused. Please help me understand. Aren't we talking about a school for Martial Arts? If so, how exactly does an A become such a huge issue that it can lead others not to join? I can understand the sensei being pi$$ed based on honor and all that but what can he really do apart from tell them off or expel them? If the goal is to get her out of the program, then yes tell the sensei. If the goal is to humiliate her (which is long overdue IMO), then yes tell the sensei. Beyond that, nothing major will happen. Isn't it?

[jwi71]

What if the sensei refuses to act?

 

It seems that the fact that it happened in the dojo is disrespectful to the art. However, given NH's last post, the dojo is less a revered structure and more of "a place convenient to train/teach in". That is to say, what sanctity of a dojo has been violated if the structure is transient?

 

And, to me, it doesn't matter if the sensei knows. It's a distraction.

The real issue is NH's WW refusal to cut contact. This, telling the sensei, is a subsection to beginning NC.

 

The most "honest" question, to me is:

 

What to do when the WS refuses to cut contact with OM?

 

My solution? Leave. It's a choice pure and simple. If the WS refuses to go NC (a choice) then the BS must abandon hopes of recovery until NC is in place. Since NH's WW refuses to go NC, move out. File for legal separation (to protect yourself legally and financially)

 

Or...and reversing what I just said, open the M. If she refuses to quit and given that one cannot control another, accept it. But why make it one-sided? NH may want to consider allowing extra-marital sexual partners. Now he can have one too. Both, each with multiple lovers, play house for the benefit of the daughter.

 

Not a choice I would select but it IS a valid solution.

 

What do you think NH?

[The Blue Knight]

I will never understand people that attack a betrayed spouse that chooses to try to save their marriage. God forbid. Do we need to insist upon a rush to divorce to the point where we viciously insult someone that chooses to exercise patience toward the goal of restoring a nuclear family? In the face of so much selfishness that we see here, kudos to you for NOT exercising every right you have to be that way now.

I agree. The idea that the betrayed spouse can simply bolt out the door or kick the wayward spouse to the curb is unrealistic in MOST situations. From my standpoint the time spent in the marriage is very key . . . as are children.

 

If someone cheats on their spouse of 6 months and there are no children, I don't find it all that too extreme if someone wants to walk away from that marriage. Probably nobody would argue that.

 

But if you have 10 or 15 years into a marriage and someone cheats, that's an entirely different dynamic UNLESS a history of serial cheating is also discovered. But if it's the first time, then it's perfectly reasonable that the BS is going to want to work it out in many cases, and if there are children, as is the case of NH, that plays heavily into the decision making process.

 

There are far too many *one size fits all* postings on these infidelity threads in my opinion. Each marriage has it's own variances, it's own set of dynamics, and it's own unique personalities.

[turnera]

Both deserve equal anger. This is the SECOND TIME she has done something like this in dojo - Last time she was kicked out of class..So, she isn't so innocent in this, it's not like the OM totally manipulated her and she didn't know it was wrong. She did this willingly.

Not what I was saying. I was saying that, as a man, the sensei is more likely to blame the guy (and thus punish him more), if that's what NH is holding back because of.