Boundary setting question

[turnera]

I haven't commented on this whole dojo thing because I'm confused. Please help me understand. Aren't we talking about a school for Martial Arts? If so, how exactly does an A become such a huge issue that it can lead others not to join?

This may just be my impression, but I've always believed that (if it's done correctly and not just a cash cow), a MA dojo is more than just a...karate class. It's a way of life, supposedly, wherein you take in the whole philosophy of rigor and respect, and kind of...rise above the rest of us peons?

 

If my assumption's correct, then people seeking that sort of spiritual/philosophical connection there may be disheartened to see that it IS just being treated like a cash cow, and look elsewhere. JMO.

[Owl]

Not what I was saying. I was saying that, as a man, the sensei is more likely to blame the guy (and thus punish him more), if that's what NH is holding back because of.

 

See, as a martial artist myself I disagree with this.

 

Man, woman...irrelevent.

 

BLACK BELTS. If OM is also on the payroll, that's an additional factor to be sure.

 

But the man/woman thing is irrelevent...they're both black belts in his dojo, and should be equally censured unless the OM was in additional position of authority such as senpai or assistant instructor, and violated that additional trust as well.

[Owl]

Well of course they are, so you just make sure you follow the TOS and everything will be fine.

 

Exactly...I can only control my posts, and report those of others if need be. I (nor anyone else here) enforces the TOS, that's what the moderation team does. Thanks for the reminder, Ham. Much appreciated.

[The Blue Knight]

Maybe some posters have made posts that seem like an attack (and they may be for all I know), but many people have tried to help. I can't imagine that anyone would think it is OK for NH's wife to still be going to the dojo, but maybe you do, BH (AKA Kidd)? She has cheated twice on this man, her OM belongs to the dojo, THEY HAVE HAD SEX IN THE DOJO, and she can't give it up?

 

I cannot believe this is a way for her to help their marriage get back on track. She refused to quit going where she and OM had sex and where she met him, so he decided to go and monitor her behavior. This is like you sitting on your sofa every day...you know what I mean? I gotta tell you. I am one for trying all you can, but even I think this is incredibly selfish of her and to me, it makes me think she wants what she wants regardless of the wishes of her H, who is willing to forgive and loves her enough to stay with her, despite the fact that she has cheated on him at least twice. Is that her showing an effort? I guess NH can answer that, but I want to say that I have never insulted him, intentionally, anyway. I don't agree with him and if he wants just people to agree with him, he probably has figured out that this isn't the right place to be...lol.

I don't think anyone really disagrees with your summation of the problem Steen. NH has been stand-up through this whole mess and his wife appears to be less than invested in trying to turn the marriage around. I view her much like I did WFBack's wife. Just kind of killing time trying to decide what her next step is.

 

A spouse who cheats and gets caught and who is TRULY interested in saving the marriage shows that in their actions, in their attitude, and in their desire to renew the marriage. I would think that her desire to make it work with NH would innately have made her leave the dojo without his even asking her to do so.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again. NH has to decide when enough is enough. He's heard everyone's opinions and concerns. Only he can decide when this is a deal-breaker for him.

[The Blue Knight]

I'm still of the opinion that what happened in the dojo needs to be reported to the sensei.

 

Regardless of your marriage...the environment that allowed this to happen and flourish needs to be changed. This kind of behavior is completely unacceptable in a dojo, most especially amongst upper belts who represent that dojo.

 

What they did was not only a violation of their marital vows...it was a violation of the dojo's honor. Of the honor of their "sport".

 

It needs to be dealt with.

 

Your wife needs to accept that as part of her choice to do what she did. It's got nothing to do with her marriage...it's got everything to do with being a 2nd dan black belt and a representative of her art, her dojo, and her instructor. She violated those things right along with her violation of your marriage.

 

OM and her both need to face the sensei for these violations.

 

If she loves her art, if she respects her art, the sport, the dojo, and her sensei...she'll demonstrate her honor and respect by being honest and forthcoming about her actions to the sensei.

 

If her honor, and the honor of her art, her dojo, her sensei, and the rank she's attained in this art mean anything to her, she'll do the right thing. If she doesn't...then she doesn't have the honor or respect to continue as an Iaidokan/aikidokan.

I agree Owl, although the traditional tenets that have always been integrally a part of the martial arts such as honor, respect, integrity, truth, diligence, etc have been falling by the wayside at martial arts schools for years in the west. When I began training 35 years ago, the schools still held to many of these tenets no matter what style you trained in . . . Japanese, Korean, Okinawan, etc. Today, the combination of Americanized fast-food "I need it now" attitudes combined with the "me, me, me, entitlement" problem which has permeated our society, has left many martial arts schools bankrupt of those traditional beliefs. Many martial arts schools have dropped the tenets today and just run it as a business I'm afraid.

[Owl]

I agree Owl, although the traditional tenets that have always been integrally a part of the martial arts such as honor, respect, integrity, truth, diligence, etc have been falling by the wayside at martial arts schools for years in the west. When I began training 35 years ago, the schools still held to many of these tenets no matter what style you trained in . . . Japanese, Korean, Okinawan, etc. Today, the combination of Americanized fast-food "I need it now" attitudes combined with the "me, me, me, entitlement" problem which has permeated our society, has left many martial arts schools bankrupt of those traditional beliefs. Many martial arts schools have dropped the tenets today and just run it as a business I'm afraid.

 

Sadly, I'm VERY familiar with the "McDojo" trend. Since this school seemed to have some strong ties and interaction with it's Japanese counterparts, I would hope that it's possible that it falls outside of that pattern.

 

It's worth a shot for NH to take. It costs him little (yes, some ire from his wife, but if he can get over his fear of ticking her off he'll see that this really plays little in the long run), but the possible benefit of removing OM completely from the picture and preventing his wife from further eroding trust by continuing to train there massively outweigh that.

 

Doing nothing will likely cost him his marriage.

[The Blue Knight]

Sadly, I'm VERY familiar with the "McDojo" trend. Since this school seemed to have some strong ties and interaction with it's Japanese counterparts, I would hope that it's possible that it falls outside of that pattern.

 

It's worth a shot for NH to take. It costs him little (yes, some ire from his wife, but if he can get over his fear of ticking her off he'll see that this really plays little in the long run), but the possible benefit of removing OM completely from the picture and preventing his wife from further eroding trust by continuing to train there massively outweigh that.

 

Doing nothing will likely cost him his marriage.

I would agree with you. At this point it's time to expose some of what's been happening "on the mat" at said dojo. NH must be prepared for the fact that nothing in the way of "positive change" may come from this. But as you point out, he's got little to lose at this point.

[Ninja'sHusband]

This dojo is definitely not a "McDojo", like the term btw ^^

 

For this particular MA, they are highly respected and usually dominate the national competitions. The sensei is Japanese and will speak all in Japanese if he can get away with it. When my W first joined there was an older sensei who actually trained with the founder in Japan many years back. He retired a couple years ago though the dojo still carries his name. Part of the reason she wants to keep going so bad is the current sensei mentioned the possibility of her competing in Japan.

[Owl]

This dojo is definitely not a "McDojo", like the term btw ^^

 

For this particular MA, they are highly respected and usually dominate the national competitions. The sensei is Japanese and will speak all in Japanese if he can get away with it. When my W first joined there was an older sensei who actually trained with the founder in Japan many years back. He retired a couple years ago though the dojo still carries his name. Part of the reason she wants to keep going so bad is the current sensei mentioned the possibility of her competing in Japan.

 

So...traditional Japanese sensei's absolutely would see this situation as an affront to the dojo.

 

OK...gonna ask the question...has any of this caused you to consider pushing this forward, or has it all been wasted pixels?

[Ninja'sHusband]

So...traditional Japanese sensei's absolutely would see this situation as an affront to the dojo.

 

OK...gonna ask the question...has any of this caused you to consider pushing this forward, or has it all been wasted pixels?

My thought right now is to let some crisis build after OM comes back, then tell.

 

I feel silly telling sensei and causing a huge mess when OM isn't even there causing problems. I'd rather continue building rapport with my W while I can. Maybe we won't crash so hard later on. Maybe something will change in the interim and I never have to expose.

 

Also there's taking the OMW's opinion into account. She was against.

[findingnemo]

Thanks, Tunera for explaining about the dojo and everybody else.

 

NH, it's a good dojo if they are strict. But tell me this, isn't it better to expose while the OM is away so that the sensei has a chance to talk to your W first? Why give the OM a chance to defend himself? He shouldn't be your concern. He caused enough chaos a long time ago, no need to wait for more, IMO.

[The Blue Knight]

This dojo is definitely not a "McDojo", like the term btw ^^

 

For this particular MA, they are highly respected and usually dominate the national competitions. The sensei is Japanese and will speak all in Japanese if he can get away with it. When my W first joined there was an older sensei who actually trained with the founder in Japan many years back. He retired a couple years ago though the dojo still carries his name. Part of the reason she wants to keep going so bad is the current sensei mentioned the possibility of her competing in Japan.

NH,

You don't have to answer this if it's a bit too revealing, but did I read a post a while back that she's practicing Iaido or Kendo? If Iaido, that would explain why it's fairly rare. Not a lot of schools today in the U.S. tracing their origins back to Japan in that art.

 

I'm sure your wife is excited about the possibility of competing in Japan, but as I'm sure you'll agree, this still comes down to a choice where it's you and your daughter, or it's the dojo. Unfortunately, she seems to be steering toward the dojo.

 

If this meant SOOOOO much to her, she should have forsaken the OM for the sake of her art and her family.

[The Blue Knight]

So...traditional Japanese sensei's absolutely would see this situation as an affront to the dojo.

 

OK...gonna ask the question...has any of this caused you to consider pushing this forward, or has it all been wasted pixels?

Agree. A truly traditional Japanese sensei is going to view this very poorly from his high ranking students, and if there were naked shenanigans in the dojo itself, that would be viewed in the poorest of judgment and I would expect him to expel the two of them.

[Ninja'sHusband]

It does make me a little uncomfortable using the real name of the MA sorry

[turnera]

NH, there's something I think hasn't been discussed much yet.

 

Your wife is hung up on the MA for one reason and one reason only: it makes her like herself. It makes her proud of herself. It makes her feel good.

 

Why can't she feel good ABOUT herself without outside...validation?

 

Because she is dysfunctional. Because she needs therapy to learn to deal with her own issues and learn to like herself so that she doesn't need outside validation - from MA or from another man.

 

IMO, you should be focusing on how she fixes herself - WITHOUT continuing the MA.

 

And if she's not willing to recognize that or go that route, if she HAS to continue to have MA or another man to feel complete, then you need to move on and let her hit rock bottom. If you don't, she will never fix this.

[The Blue Knight]

This may just be my impression, but I've always believed that (if it's done correctly and not just a cash cow), a MA dojo is more than just a...karate class. It's a way of life, supposedly, wherein you take in the whole philosophy of rigor and respect, and kind of...rise above the rest of us peons?

 

If my assumption's correct, then people seeking that sort of spiritual/philosophical connection there may be disheartened to see that it IS just being treated like a cash cow, and look elsewhere. JMO.

 

What you're talking about is what's termed the Bushido Code which is a strict code of conduct. Today it's difficult to find in American MA schools. Even the MMA over the past few years has become more like WWF wrestling in the attitude department and they've dumped the "mutual respect aspect" that one normally would show for their opponent. Not that MMA fighters aren't the best out there, but most of them have abandoned (if they had it at all) the philosophical portion of their art in favor of trash talk and self-bravado.

[Ninja'sHusband]

NH, there's something I think hasn't been discussed much yet.

 

Your wife is hung up on the MA for one reason and one reason only: it makes her like herself. It makes her proud of herself. It makes her feel good.

 

Why can't she feel good ABOUT herself without outside...validation?

 

Because she is dysfunctional. Because she needs therapy to learn to deal with her own issues and learn to like herself so that she doesn't need outside validation - from MA or from another man.

 

IMO, you should be focusing on how she fixes herself - WITHOUT continuing the MA.

 

And if she's not willing to recognize that or go that route, if she HAS to continue to have MA or another man to feel complete, then you need to move on and let her hit rock bottom. If you don't, she will never fix this.

NAILS

 

I actually brought up what a self esteem booster her MA is for her in the very first post. I've determined her A was because of self-esteem. Her MA being a crucial part of her self-esteem has come up in MC, IC, conversations with her, etc. She will tell you that point blank herself. She's going to school now for her masters. It's done WONDERS for her self-esteem. She's a completely different person than she was in that dark period when she was rejected by her 1st choice school:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-23.html#post3915143

 

She's exuberant now...we just got back from eating out. She's talking about her new friends at school with so much glee and excitement.

 

I'm letting her get built back up. If I need to spill to sensei, hopefully she'll be built back up enough to where it won't matter as much.

 

 

[edit] Also just want to point out *patience* is the key part of my strategy here. I'm trying to let her get through her MLC crap. She's doing it. Getting into this program by God's grace is a massive boon. Her self-esteem is soaring. I'm actually REALLY relieved.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[whichwayisup]

She's talking about her new friends at school with so much glee and excitement.

 

I hope you get to meet them.

 

And, I hate to ask, but have you brought up 'boundries' with her when it comes to her being friends with any men? Married or not?

[Ninja'sHusband]

I hope you get to meet them.

 

And, I hate to ask, but have you brought up 'boundries' with her when it comes to her being friends with any men? Married or not?

Yeah, we've had a lot of these discussions... Unfortunately they don't go that well. She seems to think she's fine in general...just screwed up with OM. =\ I think I'm gonna buy that book "Not Just Friends" that everyone keeps raving about. Maybe I can get her to read it. She read a little bit of stuff at my request. Took a friggin crisis but she did it.

 

 

She's got it that I don't want her talking about our M to other guys at least. I don't think she 100% agrees but seems resigned to it. I've made it really clear that one of the things I hated most was to find she had brought up problems about me with OM before she told me. She's agreed to work on that, and has shown some improvement.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[whichwayisup]

Yeah, we've had a lot of these discussions... Unfortunately they don't go that well. She seems to think she's fine in general...just screwed up with OM. =\ I think I'm gonna buy that book "Not Just Friends" that everyone keeps raving about. Maybe I can get her to read it. She read a little bit of stuff at my request. Took a friggin crisis but she did it.

 

 

She's got it that I don't want her talking about our M to other guys at least. I don't think she 100% agrees but seems resigned to it. I've made it really clear that one of the things I hated most was to find she had brought up problems about me with OM before she told me.

 

Just need to say, that her reaction isn't quite right. It's actually unsettling to hear that discussions haven't gone well. She has cheated on you, not once, but TWICE. she isn't 'fine'. Fact that she refuses to see this, just shows that her mindset is still only thinking of herself and her needs.

 

It's more that her talking to others about your marriage, it's about her NOT befriending men. PERIOD. She's at school to LEARN, number one, not to hang out and make tons of new friends like a teenager. I hope she has more female friends than men friends.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Just need to say, that her reaction isn't quite right. It's actually unsettling to hear that discussions haven't gone well. She has cheated on you, not once, but TWICE. she isn't 'fine'. Fact that she refuses to see this, just shows that her mindset is still only thinking of herself and her needs.

 

It's more that her talking to others about your marriage, it's about her NOT befriending men. PERIOD. She's at school to LEARN, number one, not to hang out and make tons of new friends like a teenager. I hope she has more female friends than men friends.

The program she's in is female dominated, about 75%.

[2sunny]

Those conversations don't go well because she intends to do whatever she wants no matter how you feel. She always gets mad when you ask her to be a decent person - of which she bucks the request no matter how small it seems.

 

Asking her to read a book - good luck with that.

 

You need to do new things for YOU. You focus on what you are or aren't gonna do.

 

She shows she's doing what she wants. Anything but repair the marriage.

 

Stop asking her to read or do anything else - she's not gonna do it. Even if she says she reads it - what are you on a do - give her a test?

 

Please address growing and moving on with your counselor. Address your ability to avoid conflict at all costs... Even to the point of you putting up with things that make you completely unhappy.

[Wanderer25]

Yeah, we've had a lot of these discussions... Unfortunately they don't go that well. She seems to think she's fine in general...just screwed up with OM. =\ I think I'm gonna buy that book "Not Just Friends" that everyone keeps raving about. Maybe I can get her to read it. She read a little bit of stuff at my request. Took a friggin crisis but she did it.

 

Gee, I killed a man once and they are calling me a murderer all my life . That aside, what about her planning to run away with another guy 7 years ago. Don't tell me it was the medicine one ore time. . Huge rug sweeping going on here.

 

It is almost as if you are forcing her to stay in the relationship and she is doing it because she has no other option. Why do you have to force her to read a book? Why do you have to talk to her about boundaries and she blows you off?

[Wanderer25]

The program she's in is female dominated' date=' about 75%.[/quote']

 

Like it makes it any better.

[2sunny]

The program she's in is female dominated' date=' about 75%.[/quote']

 

You always defend her and make excuses. 25% of 100 is 25 men to choose from.

 

For women like her it's a new and fertile environment with new prospects.

 

If she's having ANY personal conversations with any men - its INAPPROPRIATE!

 

You can't police her forever and you certainly have no reason to trust her - so you still think you're married but there's no trust.