Boundary setting question

[Ninja'sHusband]

Did you ask your W why she sent him the email - especially why send it if he's gone on vacation?

 

It's tiresome that she has this need to protect him ,still, by sending the email that's full of what has transpired in your M.

No, I didn't really care. That email was so full of stupidity...just pointless. I think she felt she had to respond in some way and get her POV out.

 

She doesn't know they are on vacation. I noticed that yesterday but never brought it up to WW.

 

 

I'm considering talking to sensei...but honestly it scares the bejezzus out of me...I can barely understand the guy... He's so formal and quiet and thickly accented. I can't even imagine approaching him.

[2sunny]

No, I didn't really care. That email was so full of stupidity...just pointless. I think she felt she had to respond in some way and get her POV out.

 

She doesn't know they are on vacation. I noticed that yesterday but never brought it up to WW.

 

 

I'm considering talking to sensei...but honestly it scares the bejezzus out of me...I can barely understand the guy... He's so formal and quiet. I can't even imagine approaching him.

 

Ok, this is good change to see in you. Staying neutral is most effective way.

 

What have you seen in her attitude and demeanor, any change?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Change, hrm. We actually talked about the future, the A, and about what happened 7 years ago last night. It was a very calm discussion.

 

 

Also, I have to go to class early anyway(if I go, which I said I wasn't) since I'm lowest man on the totem pole. I have to clean the floors =\ My preference would be for sensei to approach us...I wouldn't want to force a conversation.

[jwi71]

Thanks except for the balls part. Writing the letter and exposing was the EASY thing to do. Persevering and remaining patient was a lot harder.

 

I would suggest that being patient was harder because YOUR needs weren't being met and not because patience is inherently easier or harder per se. I'm equally being patient would have been easy had your WW "done all the right moves". KWIM?

 

That took balls.

 

That it did.

 

I essentially caved, my balls shriveled. I think you guys have a very backwards concept of toughness and bravery. Being angry and vengeful is always the easier thing to do. Being compassionate, patient, loving, especially in the face of adversity is much harder. I've done both in this relationship. I know which took more effort and bravery. Writing that letter and sending is was suuuper easy. NOT writing it and continuing class like I wanted to do would have been much harder.

 

Caved to whom? Yourself?

You cannot claim you caved and then also say "you reached your breaking point". How is that caving and to what or whom are you caving to?

 

It's less about being angry and tough than standing up for what you want and need. How is it either to say "you cannot see the OM in class anymore?". Especially since that's what you have repeatedly stated - how does ACTING to get your needs met angry and tough?

 

I agree that facing adversity can take innumerable forms. That isn't the question here. It's really one of what happens when being compassionate and understanding doesn't deliver the result you say you want? And repeatedly fails to do so? And it works in reverse as well. If what you are doing (or not doing) is NOT producing results then change what you are doing.

 

Nothing angry or tough about it.

Simple common sense.

 

And if you hadn't written the letter (the angry tough route), what would different now?

 

See where I'm going?

 

It's all about reasonable actions and responses.

Sitting around had accomplished little. After all, she was still going to class, still planning on seeing the OM there, still ...you get the idea.

[2sunny]

Balls or shriveled balls - we can argue which perspective all day long...

 

But what I'm seeing now, on some level, is his COURAGE - to do what's right. To speak his truth - to have a voice about what he knows, and honoring his truth!

 

That is progress and moving forward.

 

Keep moving forward! If you stand still too long it feels like you're going backwards.

 

Not telling you what to do - but just admiring someone honoring their truth.

 

It's hard - but it's worth it!

[jwi71]

Change' date=' hrm. We actually talked about the future, the A, and about what happened 7 years ago last night. It was a very calm discussion.[/quote']

 

Is that an improvement?

For you? Your WW? Your M?

 

Also, I have to go to class early anyway(if I go, which I said I wasn't) since I'm lowest man on the totem pole. I have to clean the floors =\ My preference would be for sensei to approach us...I wouldn't want to force a conversation.

 

Bring it up.

He'll be puzzled as to why you send such an email but do not speak to him directly about it. Especially since you CC other members.

 

Personally, I wouldn't go. Bad memories. That awkward air after the disclosure.

I'd quit and stop paying for her lessons. It just seems like spending time where your WW was having sex with the OM would trigger me hard. Like a subtle yet forceful slap. But, that's just me.

 

Ultimately, take steps (ahem, actions) which help you reach a decision.

[Owl]

Yeah...showing up but not talking with him directly would definitely send a confusing message.

 

Don't show up "for class". But offer to meet with him and explain in person what you sent via email...or perhaps send a subsequent email directly to him only offering to do this.

 

And...spell out what it is that you want from him, clearly and concisely.

 

Ask him to ban both her and OM from the dojo, as their actions have brought dishonor upon the dojo, and the art. Let him know honestly that you're asking for this to happen as you believe it will establish NC between your wife and the OM, which will give your marriage a chance to recover.

 

Blunt honesty is always the best course in these kinds of situations. ESPECIALLY where language and culture could confuse the matter.

[2sunny]

Is that an improvement?

For you? Your WW? Your M?

 

 

 

Bring it up.

He'll be puzzled as to why you send such an email but do not speak to him directly about it. Especially since you CC other members.

 

Personally, I wouldn't go. Bad memories. That awkward air after the disclosure.

I'd quit and stop paying for her lessons. It just seems like spending time where your WW was having sex with the OM would trigger me hard. Like a subtle yet forceful slap. But, that's just me.

 

Ultimately, take steps (ahem, actions) which help you reach a decision.

 

His wife already had him pay for the entire year.

 

For me, I'd see if sensei would approach me for that conversation. But I wouldn't go and clean the floor at this point... If anyone should be cleaning the floor - it should be only your wife (as an action of cleaning up the place she crapped all over).id not go at all - but that's just me standing on principles.

 

What was discussed in your conversation with your cheating wife? Did she say what her expectations are now? Did she validate how much she hurt you and the M? Did she make movement on going to dojo or not? Is she still planning to travel to The national competition? (that would be a HUGE deal breaker for me!).

Edited April 26, 2012 by 2sunny

[Ninja'sHusband]

Yeah...showing up but not talking with him directly would definitely send a confusing message.

 

Don't show up "for class". But offer to meet with him and explain in person what you sent via email...or perhaps send a subsequent email directly to him only offering to do this.

 

And...spell out what it is that you want from him, clearly and concisely.

 

Ask him to ban both her and OM from the dojo, as their actions have brought dishonor upon the dojo, and the art. Let him know honestly that you're asking for this to happen as you believe it will establish NC between your wife and the OM, which will give your marriage a chance to recover.

 

Blunt honesty is always the best course in these kinds of situations. ESPECIALLY where language and culture could confuse the matter.

I think I feel like I don't have the right to tell him to do anything in particular. I merely wanted to provide him with info he didn't have. He should proceed however he sees fit. Trying to control sensei would be really bad news I think. I'm thinking I probably just won't go tomorrow. If my WW goes (she probably will) we'll see what happens.

[drifter777]

?? uhh...none? Not sure I understand. I had nothing to do with that letter she wrote. The subject line was actually "response" but it was only directed to me and OM. I didn't know she was going to send it. I'm not cool with NC being broken EVER' date=' that's what this is all about.[/quote']

 

When "RE:" is in the subject line, it is indeed a response email. That could mean that OM emailed HER first. She responded with the message you saw, but deleted the original message from OM. People do this all the time because they forget about the "RE:" in the subject line. The other possibility is that her email "send" settings are to not show original text on replies. Either way it seems as though OM may have sent mail to her first, breaking NC, and she replied with a pre-determined message meant to ease your suspicious mind. I hate being such a wet blanket here, but now that you are moving forward I want to see you sustain your momentum.

[2sunny]

If it were me - I'd go into full press "these are my needs and IF you aren't willing to consider meeting them in this marriage, then it's over" mode.

 

I'd tell her exactly what needs to be done to save the M - and IF she's not willing to change - then her unwillingness makes that decision for your future.

 

Either she starts getting more willing and less selfish - or you leave - or you stay and be married to a selfish, self centered gal who is using you for her lifestyle but hurting you behind your back, and now in front of your face.

 

It's time to put your requirements out on the table...

[2sunny]

When "RE:" is in the subject line, it is indeed a response email. That could mean that OM emailed HER first. She responded with the message you saw, but deleted the original message from OM. People do this all the time because they forget about the "RE:" in the subject line. The other possibility is that her email "send" settings are to not show original text on replies. Either way it seems as though OM may have sent mail to her first, breaking NC, and she replied with a pre-determined message meant to ease your suspicious mind. I hate being such a wet blanket here, but now that you are moving forward I want to see you sustain your momentum.

 

I agree - re: is an indication that there's been prior communication. Tell her you want to see all prior communication since they've evidently been sending it.

 

Check her trash too. She's still hiding things... Not a good sign. Did it look like it may have been based from a "different or new email acct"?

[jwi71]

One step further NH - following up on 2Sunny above.

 

What ARE your needs regarding your WW?

Your M?

 

What do you need to heal, recover and move forward in a healthy fashion/life/M?

 

Would you share them here?

 

Perhaps most important, what is your plan to meet those needs or have them met?

[Trimmer]

When "RE:" is in the subject line, it is indeed a response email. That could mean that OM emailed HER first. She responded with the message you saw, but deleted the original message from OM. People do this all the time...

 

I agree - re: is an indication that there's been prior communication. Tell her you want to see all prior communication since they've evidently been sending it.

 

Guys, I have no desire to defend his wife or the OM, but let's not lose our objectivity here. He didn't say that the subject line had "RE:" on it - the OP said that the subject line was "response" - the whole word, as he posted it anyway.

 

Given that both his wife and the OM were on distribution for his exposure Email, isn't it consistent - both with the scenario and with the content and attitude of her Email - that she would have sent back what she considered to be a "response"?

 

Further, even if her Email did have "RE:" on the subject line (and I still question this) isn't it just as likely that she hit "Reply" to the OP's exposure letter, in typing her response, and then cleaned up the distribution list? That's how I do it.

 

Bottom line: I'm all for jumping on the WW and the OM and holding them to account for their indiscretions and arrogance and their other failings - there's plenty of actual evidence of all that - but I can't advocate the OP get spun up once again about some evidence that isn't really evidence.

 

Stay focused, stay alert, stay objective. Think; don't panic. Don't lose your cool.

[2sunny]

You fire off an email like that and she's STILL likely to go to class as usual?

No embarrassment?

No shame?

No tears of having shame brought upon her?

No rushing off to speak with sensei in order to clear things up?

Calm reaction to the email?

 

Something doesn't add up.

 

It's not surprising to me - she's shown time and again that she operates without a conscience or acknowledgement of how her actions may be affecting others negatively. She is consistent with that mindset.

[Trimmer]

You fire off an email like that and she's STILL likely to go to class as usual?

No embarrassment?

No shame?

No tears of having shame brought upon her?

No rushing off to speak with sensei in order to clear things up?

Calm reaction to the email?

 

Something doesn't add up.

I do agree that this is a more compelling indicator of her attitude and outlook than an imagined "Re:" on her response Email...

 

... and as Sunny says, unfortunately it's not too surprising, either, as it is consistent with her attitude throughout this whole thing.

[Ninja'sHusband]

OM will not be there tomorrow Alice. I actually told her to go and say goodbyes, and I want to know what Sensei has to say to her anyway. Of course she probably won't say "goodbye" unless sensei kicks her out. If he doesn't...well we have something to talk about Monday morning in our MC session. Yay we're back in MC!

 

Some things she's given me already. We've actually been though a lot over the last 6 months. Stuff that remains:

 

1) Deliberate NC

2) Prove she can tell me the truth when it's hard to do so.

3) Show me that she understands what healthy boundaries are...maybe read "Not Just Friends"

 

She has improved on her boundaries with other guys...but verbally she still disagrees with me. Funny how words and actions can be in dissonance either way. #1 she has with words but not action, #3 she has with action but not words ^^

#2 is tough if she truly has nothing hard left to say. Last night we went over that yet again, her trying desperately to find something that she could tell me that qualified as "hard". We talked about events of 7 years ago...but everything she said pointed to "you know all the bad stuff already" so while some of the things she said were soothing and news to me...nothing told me she was capable of giving me the hard truth when needed.

 

Hurtles we've overcome already:

1) I needed to know how the A started and why. Not that WW was instrumental in this =\ but she helped in some ways. I eventually got the info I needed through various sources (FB, email, WW, OM, phone records)

2) I cannot be required to only have protected sex with her if OM was not required to do so.

3) She needs to show me love and affection consistently. She's been much better about this.

4) She needs to wear her wedding ring consistently. She's been doing this.

5) She needs to be transparent and tolerant of my snooping and such. She's been very good about this recently.

6) Continue MC and IC

 

Most of that slipped for a while when we were going to D back in Feb time frame but pretty much everything is back in full force right now. Even after spilling to sensei (though last boinky time was last weekend).

[jwi71]

2) I cannot be required to only have protected sex with her if OM was not required to do so.

 

Wait. What?!!?!

 

I have clearly missed some important information.

 

Are you saying she is/was willing to become pregnant by OM but not you?

 

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I am jumping to a wild conclusion.

 

Seriously?

 

She demands/demanded protected sex with you but NOT the OM?

[Furious]

Do you love her?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Wait. What?!!?!

 

I have clearly missed some important information.

 

Are you saying she is/was willing to become pregnant by OM but not you?

 

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I am jumping to a wild conclusion.

 

Seriously?

 

She demands/demanded protected sex with you but NOT the OM?

I think I mentioned this waaay back in some random post early in the thread. It's kinda moot now because we are past this issue.

 

Yeah she royally F-ed up in the back of car with OM after a seminar one night. It was impromptu and he was unprepared...and apparently he's not so good at pulling out when it comes to someone else's W. What a fing *&&$*#. I dunno about other guys, but I have no issues with the "withdrawal" method of protection. I know when I'm passed the point of no return in plenty of time =\

 

So anyway, after muddying the waters with me, she has a miscarriage. Let me emphasize MISCARRIAGES ARE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES

Up to that point, in 18 years I had never seen her in so much mental\spiritual agony.

 

So she is naturally terrified of getting pregnant again for fear of another miscarriage. She's 37, at risk for that now. My problem was at the time I knew of one time they had had sex, and they didn't use protection. I could not submit my self to a happy bag knowing that. I didn't really pressure her on it because I could see that she had very real reasons for being deathly afraid...but I had my own very valid reasons for feeling the opposite way. So we had a pretty long dry spell. Eventually she was the one to give in. It hasn't been an issue since. I consider that to be a problem of the past and don't even think about it anymore.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Do you love her?

Yes, same as I did before? Hell no. I don't believe in a magical soul mate kinda love. Never have. I told her this on day 1 back in college(18 years ago) when we first kissed. She's a flawed human being like anyone else.

 

My goal is to rebuild love over time, and continue to provide a nurturing environment for our daughter. If we didn't have a kid? I would have walked months ago.

[The Blue Knight]

Get this: She just sent a NC letter to the OM and CCed me.

 

BUT in the letter she claims she will not quit her MA

 

ROFL. What was the point of that? Basically breaking NC in my mind, nothing else.

 

In the letter she also made complaints of me exposing to the dojo and continuously contacting OMW. lol. Pretty heartfelt and remorseful eh?

 

(I've had one short conversation with OMW btw besides the 1 or 2 sentences we exchanged the day I dropped off the packet)

 

Oh and I picked up "Not Just Friends" Probably a waste...but w/e. Good read so far, rings true.

The point of that was to cc you so you saw it. She's trying to set the stage where she has the best of both worlds. Her MA and her home stability.

[2sunny]

The point of that was to cc you so you saw it. She's trying to set the stage where she has the best of both worlds. Her MA and her home stability.

 

Or just same old same old.

 

She has contact on HER terms, when she wants and however she wants... But obviously tells him about it afterwards and expects him to be ok with it.

 

Same as SEEING him at the dojo- its still contact!

 

She's making her own rules and wanting you to be ok with it.

[The Blue Knight]

Thanks except for the balls part. Writing the letter and exposing was the EASY thing to do. Persevering and remaining patient was a lot harder. That took balls. I essentially caved' date=' my balls shriveled. I think you guys have a very backwards concept of toughness and bravery. Being angry and vengeful is always the easier thing to do. Being compassionate, patient, loving, especially in the face of adversity is much harder. I've done both in this relationship. I know which took more effort and bravery. Writing that letter and sending is was suuuper easy. NOT writing it and continuing class like I wanted to do would have been much harder.[/quote']

 

Good post, and good explanation Ninja. You're dead-on that what takes bravery is the ability to be patient and kind (when we don't feel like being patient and kind) and to not react on each and every impulse. Anyone can act on impulse. That's typically what leads people to much bigger problems.

 

You did this on the time-line that worked for you and that's what is important.

[Owl]

Have you informed her directly that her continuing MA training at this dojo is UNACCEPTABLE?

 

That's part of the problem...what are you going to do/change if she continues to INSIST on going despite anything else, and her sensei doesn't take action?

 

Better have that firmly in mind and a plan of action in place.