Boundary setting question

[BetrayedH]

Do you love her?

 

Now THAT is a good question. Up until now, I think NH has focused exclusively on the bare minimum requirements he needed from her in order to be able to stay for the sake of his daughter. Personally I think that is very unwise as it fails to honor NH's needs and isn't likely sustainable. If he wants true reconciliation, that requires a remorseful WS, a BS that is patient enough, and love on both sides. I think this issue has been glossed over in the midst of so many strategies to get the BS and WS to take action.

[The Blue Knight]

No, I didn't really care. That email was so full of stupidity...just pointless. I think she felt she had to respond in some way and get her POV out.

 

She doesn't know they are on vacation. I noticed that yesterday but never brought it up to WW.

 

I'm considering talking to sensei...but honestly it scares the bejezzus out of me...I can barely understand the guy... He's so formal and quiet and thickly accented. I can't even imagine approaching him.

From where he's coming Ninja he may well choose to deal with it without ever bringing it up to you again. He may also sense a feeling of loyalty to his senior students over you, even if he doesn't approve of their actions. In other words, he may in due time talk to them about this, but never get back to you about how he handled it. Just be prepared for that.

[jwi71]

I think I mentioned this waaay back in some random post early in the thread. It's kinda moot now because we are past this issue.

 

Yeah she royally F-ed up in the back of car with OM after a seminar one night. It was impromptu and he was unprepared...and apparently he's not so good at pulling out when it comes to someone else's W. What a fing *&&$*#. I dunno about other guys, but I have no issues with the "withdrawal" method of protection. I know when I'm passed the point of no return in plenty of time =\

 

So anyway, after muddying the waters with me, she has a miscarriage. Let me emphasize MISCARRIAGES ARE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES

Up to that point, in 18 years I had never seen her in so much mental\spiritual agony.

 

So she is naturally terrified of getting pregnant again for fear of another miscarriage. She's 37, at risk for that now. My problem was at the time I knew of one time they had had sex, and they didn't use protection. I could not submit my self to a happy bag knowing that. I didn't really pressure her on it because I could see that she had very real reasons for being deathly afraid...but I had my own very valid reasons for feeling the opposite way. So we had a pretty long dry spell. Eventually she was the one to give in. It hasn't been an issue since. I consider that to be a problem of the past and don't even think about it anymore.

 

Got it.

After reading your exposure email and the post I quoted, I was like wtf?

 

Now I get it.

And if it's a non-issue for you then there is no sense in dwelling on it.

 

However, as others, myself included, have mentioned or alluded to - there appears to be a major fundamental issue.

 

She doesn't respect you. And if she doesn't respect you, how can she truly love you?

 

Sometimes, for me anyway, it helps to write a "pros and cons" list. In this case, list out all the behaviors which indicate she respects you. And ways she does not. Try and keep it to overt actions - no guesses as to why she does "whatever". If she does it list it in the appropriate column. Then I would formulate your own educated guesses as to her motivation for each behavior.

Finally, discuss the list BUT NOT YOUR theorized motivations. In private, compare your guesses to what she says. The gap between the guess and her stated reason is a disconnect. Investigate those gaps.

 

Do the same for her. Ask her to create an equivalent list and you explain yourself to her.

 

Try and not ask leading questions. Be largely silent. Take notes if you must.

 

I hope you can uncover the root of her disrespect towards you. I mean, she flat out ignores you. A healthy and mature partner is able to listen and disagree. Even offer up reasonable compromise. She's not doing that. It's alarming.

[2sunny]

My hope is that you are seeing a new MC since any and all of the ones you've seen in the past haven't presented any substantial change.

 

You need someone who will require new actions that show she's doing things to earn back your trust and actions that show she's willing to show respect and regard for you and the marriage.

 

Is it a new counselor?

[jwi71]

My hope is that you are seeing a new MC since any and all of the ones you've seen in the past haven't presented any substantial change.

 

You need someone who will require new actions that show she's doing things to earn back your trust and actions that show she's willing to show respect and regard for you and the marriage.

 

Is it a new counselor?

 

I asked/stated very early on (like page 65 or so, early! Ha) that the fundamental problem I see, and still see is this:

 

NH wants his WW to change but has no control over that (no one does)

NH's W doesn't want to change (her actions as described here) and has the power to do so.

 

What's one to do?

 

Ultimately, for me, nothing will change until she wants it.

And she doesn't. She gives just enough to keep the status quo.

And, unfortunately for her, the status quo is just short of what NH requires to remain M to her. This thread is dead long ago if she drops the MA.

 

Note, I'm not saying its healthy. I don't think it is. I think she simply finds another OM in the future because SHE doesn't want to change. At least from what I read here, no heavy lifting on her part. Always just enough to end the conversation (they don't go well).

 

She's not going to change because, to me, there's no reason to change. No reason to listen to (much less abide by) NH's wants and needs.

 

Until she decides to change nothing truly gets better.

 

Perhaps another MC is the answer but personally I doubt it.

 

Honestly, I don't think his WW loves him. If she did and if she valued him and this M, she wouldn't be treating him this way.

 

It's sad to see but it is what it is.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Not saying I agree with this, but if my WW were to post she would say something like:

 

"I do love NH. I would never ask him to stop playing guitar if tables were turned. My MA is a part of me and I cannot\will not give it up."

[Owl]

Not saying I agree with this, but if my WW were to post she would say something like:

 

"I do love NH. I would never ask him to stop playing guitar if tables were turned. My MA is a part of me and I cannot\will not give it up."

 

And my response would be:

 

"Which is your priority...your marriage, or your MA? Going to this dojo destroys NH's trust in you, erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, and if it continues it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of your marriage. In light of that, which do you choose...NH, or the destruction of your marriage by continuing to train at this dojo?"

[2sunny]

Not saying I agree with this, but if my WW were to post she would say something like:

 

"I do love NH. I would never ask him to stop playing guitar if tables were turned. My MA is a part of me and I cannot\will not give it up."

 

I guess that's the indicator of her answer.

 

She chooses her sport which has enabled her to cheat over her marriage.

 

The choices we make have consequences. If it were me - I'd say "you make it perfectly clear that this M isn't your top priority with YOUR choices, peace out dear."

[whichwayisup]

Not saying I agree with this, but if my WW were to post she would say something like:

 

"I do love NH. I would never ask him to stop playing guitar if tables were turned. My MA is a part of me and I cannot\will not give it up."

 

That's apples and oranges. You can play guitar anywhere. She forgot to add the part in, "if he had an affair and the woman he had the A with was in a class" with a teacher that is so popular, there's nobody else like him (like the sensei)Trust me, it would BE THE SAME and she WOULD expect you to quit and find another teacher. She would be going apeshi.t every single time you were there.

[whichwayisup]

She maybe not be able to give up her MA, but she certainly can find another class with a different sensei somewhere else. Sure it wouldn't be the same, probably not even too close to home, but she CAN find another class. She just isn't willing to be inconvienced. She'd rather YOU be inconvienced. Fact.

[2sunny]

Essentially she expects you to get used to her ways of cheating. It's her gateway to connecting to men...

 

It's why she needs that validation more than she needs the M.

 

If she can't find validation and purpose in this M - more than SHE finds at MA- there's really nothing more to talk about.

 

She may not be capable of letting go of the source of her validation...

[Ninja'sHusband]

And my response would be:

 

"Which is your priority...your marriage, or your MA? Going to this dojo destroys NH's trust in you, erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, and if it continues it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of your marriage. In light of that, which do you choose...NH, or the destruction of your marriage by continuing to train at this dojo?"

 

(Still playing my WW)

 

"I choose both. NH was going with me to MA classes, now he has said he wants to stop. This saddens me. OM has not been in class but once recently and NH was there. I have done a lot to rebuild trust, including going to counseling, allowing him to have access to my phone, email, calling him to tell him where I am, and coming home directly after class instead of being with my friends."

 

 

I like this part btw OWL:

"erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, "

[whichwayisup]

Yes, same as I did before? Hell no. I don't believe in a magical soul mate kinda love. Never have. I told her this on day 1 back in college(18 years ago) when we first kissed. She's a flawed human being like anyone else.

 

My goal is to rebuild love over time, and continue to provide a nurturing environment for our daughter. If we didn't have a kid? I would have walked months ago.

 

What are you going to do if in the upcoming months nothing happens? She gives up too quickly with counselling? She stays detached and focusses on herself and her hobby? She takes off on you and your daughter too much to do as she pleases? That will be an issue and also build resentment on your end. Yes and I do get that you want to keep your family under one roof, I do believe it's best for kids to be raised in a happy and healthy environment in one household, but if your household doesn't have that environment.... What good is that for your child? She will see that as the "norm" for a marriage. How mommy and daddy relate to eachother and how home life is between parents is a pattern and stepping stone for future relationships in her own life. I know you don't want to divorce, but if your wife doesn't change and get help, become a better wife, and family woman then it's not going to be nice ride..

[Ninja'sHusband]

That's apples and oranges. You can play guitar anywhere. She forgot to add the part in, "if he had an affair and the woman he had the A with was in a class" with a teacher that is so popular, there's nobody else like him (like the sensei)Trust me, it would BE THE SAME and she WOULD expect you to quit and find another teacher. She would be going apeshi.t every single time you were there.

 

Yeah my analogy is more like if I was in a band that was nationally known, and I had an A with the singer. Would she allow me to tour with that band? She dismissed that based on the fact that it was the group that was known vs her individually.... =\ Misses the point entirely...

[whichwayisup]

(Still playing my WW)

 

"I choose both. NH was going with me to MA classes, now he has said he wants to stop. This saddens me. OM has not been in class but once recently and NH was there. I have done a lot to rebuild trust, including going to counseling, allowing him to have access to my phone, email, calling him to tell him where I am, and coming home directly after class instead of being with my friends."

 

 

I like this part btw OWL:

"erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, "

 

And you can poke holes in this. You went to make her happy but you weren't happy with this decision. You chose to make things easier because you love her and put her first. The OM will be there with or without you there. You can find another MA class, a different teacher, different location. You have quit IC and MC, you refuse to do as i ask, read books, look at videos. you take off when you want to (EASTER!!) and continually put YOU first above myself and our daughter.

[whichwayisup]

Yeah my analogy is more like if I was in a band that was nationally known' date=' and I had an A with the singer. Would she allow me to tour with that band? She dismissed that based on the fact that it was the group that was known vs her individually.... =\ [b']Misses the point entirely[/b]...

 

Shocker!

 

I actually had that analogy down but changed it to guitar teacher. lol.

[2sunny]

(Still playing my WW)

 

"I choose both. NH was going with me to MA classes, now he has said he wants to stop. This saddens me. OM has not been in class but once recently and NH was there. I have done a lot to rebuild trust, including going to counseling, allowing him to have access to my phone, email, calling him to tell him where I am, and coming home directly after class instead of being with my friends."

 

 

I like this part btw OWL:

"erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, "

 

I'd say - I don't see your evidence that you're rebuilding trust. You specifically sent an email to your OM without asking permission first. You still plan to go to "events" which give you an environment to cheat.

 

If you want the M - you must quit the MA! You are hurting him and the marriage by going - yet you act like you don't care that you're hurting others.

 

Show some evidence by sacrificing in order to earn his trust back... Or leave so he can have a woman that really shows evidence that she loves him.

[Ninja'sHusband]

And you can poke holes in this. You went to make her happy but you weren't happy with this decision. You chose to make things easier because you love her and put her first. The OM will be there with or without you there. You can find another MA class, a different teacher, different location. You have quit IC and MC, you refuse to do as i ask, read books, look at videos. you take off when you want to (EASTER!!) and continually put YOU first above myself and our daughter.

Err, this isn't really accurate though. She watched the video, she's going back to MC, and she is WAAYYY more intense on Easter than I am. She missed a neighborhood egg hunt the day before Easter. The hunt itself took like all of 5 seconds there were so many kids. She more than made up for that with dying eggs with DD, doing around the house egg hunts, preparing the most massive Easter prize fest I've ever seen for Easter morning. My WW is actually an Easter nut, she always has been for as long as I've known her.

 

I would like her to take up another MA. There really aren't any accessible alternative dojos in the area for her current one, she's right about this. We could move, but she's in this masters program =\

[drifter777]

(Still playing my WW)

 

"I choose both. NH was going with me to MA classes, now he has said he wants to stop. This saddens me. OM has not been in class but once recently and NH was there. I have done a lot to rebuild trust, including going to counseling, allowing him to have access to my phone, email, calling him to tell him where I am, and coming home directly after class instead of being with my friends."

 

 

I like this part btw OWL:

"erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, "

 

You are making progress but it's so sllllooooooooowwwww! This really isn't complicated, and nothing you can say changes that fact. No contact is the cornerstone of every attempt to reconcile. She has to agree with this and do whatever necessary to insure her compliance. She must quit all facets of MA that will or may bring her into contact with OM. Why is that so hard for you to understand? The way this has dragged on & the suffering you have done is painful to anyone following your story. It's so frustrating to see that you want so badly to save your marriage but are unwilling to take the first, the most elementary step to attempt to get what you want. No contact. Nothing else matters until you get this in place and, if she is unwilling to do so, all other efforts are a waste of time and emotion. Please take this first step.

[turnera]

(Still playing my WW)

 

"I choose both. NH was going with me to MA classes, now he has said he wants to stop. This saddens me. OM has not been in class but once recently and NH was there. I have done a lot to rebuild trust, including going to counseling, allowing him to have access to my phone, email, calling him to tell him where I am, and coming home directly after class instead of being with my friends."

 

 

I like this part btw OWL:

"erodes his confidence in your efforts to rebuild the marriage, "

That would be her answer BECAUSE you have not given her a consequence for the boundary of continuing MA - divorce. She KNOWS you won't divorce her, so why should she stop? You'll never do anything but complain and she knows it. Cheaters - even former cheaters - can handle whiny spouses (no offense), as long as it gets them what they want.

[turnera]

Note that I do see progress for you two. It's just that, as has been said, no contact is the cornerstone of recovery. There simply is no other solution if you want to stay married, cos it will drive you crazy wondering if they'll meet up.

 

Cheaters should not be allowed to negotiate. They should be asking YOU what to do to get to keep you.

[2sunny]

I used to have a friend who cheated. Looked a bit like your W. no remorse - no conscience.

 

Was married 27 years. Always need that external validation that men found her attractive - even at the expense of embarrassing her husband publicly.

 

She actually had the gall to accuse him of being half the blame because he didn't pay enough attention to her! What a total @itch she's being! I don't view her as a friend anymore...I view her as completely broken and void of recognizing how OTHERS must feel by her actions! Her kids watched while she created this mess!

 

She always described him as "weak and in love with me" - " I could do anything and he won't leave me". She's always been the entitled one acting as if she deserves to be on that pedestal. Meanwhile treating him like an afterthought - mainly concerned that he make more money- be gone often - and be sure to handle their investments wisely.

 

Seems recently he got a healthy boundary. He's divorcing her - mainly because SHE WON'T CHANGE.

 

And she too got pregnant and was wondering whose baby it was. She wanted my support. I told her I wouldn't support bad behavior.

 

I also told her when she grows a conscience and OWNS HER BEHAVIOR and wants to change that old behavior to new behavior - then we have something to talk about.

 

Until then - she's out creating more messes for her life.

 

I'm glad for her H - he deserves better than the way she's treated him since they were teenagers.

 

Seriously, a woman sending naked pictures of herself to my male friends is NOT a woman who acts married. My male friend asked me "why is _____ sending me naked pictures?" I said "she pretends to be married but actually does whatever she wants."

 

Some people just don't know how to be decent human beings.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Note that I do see progress for you two. It's just that, as has been said, no contact is the cornerstone of recovery. There simply is no other solution if you want to stay married, cos it will drive you crazy wondering if they'll meet up.

 

Cheaters should not be allowed to negotiate. They should be asking YOU what to do to get to keep you.

It's coming to that right now. I've told her we should be looking for separate places instead of one for both of us. She wants to try to figure out a solution on Monday morn in MC. My refusal to consider a place to live in for both of us is scaring her. We only have until June 30th, then our lease is up. That's pretty soon. We are missing good opportunities...

[2sunny]

Note that I do see progress for you two. It's just that, as has been said, no contact is the cornerstone of recovery. There simply is no other solution if you want to stay married, cos it will drive you crazy wondering if they'll meet up.

 

Cheaters should not be allowed to negotiate. They should be asking YOU what to do to get to keep you.

 

This is true - and was at the forefront of that video that Harley put out.

 

Did your W watch it yet? Is she willing to DO everything he outlines in that video?

 

If not, she doesn't INTEND to recover the marriage from HER END.

 

She wants YOU to do all the compromising.

 

NO CAN DO!!!

[2sunny]

It's coming to that right now. I've told her we should be looking for separate places instead of one for both of us. She wants to try to figure out a solution on Monday morn in MC. My refusal to consider a place to live in for both of us is scaring her. We only have until June 30th' date=' then our lease is up. That's pretty soon. We are missing good opportunities...[/quote']

 

Don't back down!

 

If she still goes to MA - there's no reason you need to live with her or live SI that crap she's trying to feed you!