Boundary setting question

[Ninja'sHusband]

A trial separation, with you gone, may begin to wake her up to HOW much you give and provide her (not talking money here). Focus on behaviors that "wake her up". And as I have repeatedly said, you can't force her to want it. Maybe your absence, and all you provide WILL do it.

At that point....I just don't know.....we will have already hurt my daughter so badly. That's the very thing I've been trying so hard to avoid. Then she has a change of heart and I'm supposed to take back this woman who has destroyed so much? I just think it will be too little too late. Once I tell my daughter what is happening, I feel like there is no going back. What if we R and it just happens again? I already don't trust her. Then we hurt DD 2x. It just seems stupid. This is why I wanted to exhaust all my options before D. Unfortunately I have, and I've exhausted my patience. Time is up. MC on Monday is the last chance. Tonight WW will go to class. Wonder what will happen there.

[Wanderer25]

Maybe a reasonable compromise would be a break in her MA until she finishes her Masters(or for atleast an year). She made the mistake twice, indulging in affairs while in the sport. But I can also sympathize a bit with something that important being taken away however wrong she is. To her, her MA defines her. Give her an out("this is a temporary break") that she can compromise on.

[BetrayedH]

Maybe a reasonable compromise would be a break in her MA until she finishes her Masters(or for atleast an year). She made the mistake twice, indulging in affairs while in the sport. But I can also sympathize a bit with something that important being taken away however wrong she is. To her, her MA defines her. Give her an out("this is a temporary break") that she can compromise on.

 

I gave my wife 90 days to no longer work with the other man. She met that requirement. But she was still a liar.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Maybe a reasonable compromise would be a break in her MA until she finishes her Masters(or for atleast an year). She made the mistake twice, indulging in affairs while in the sport. But I can also sympathize a bit with something that important being taken away however wrong she is. To her, her MA defines her. Give her an out("this is a temporary break") that she can compromise on.

I can't even live with the thought of her going back to the place where OM is. I've learned that about myself this last week since talking to OMW.

 

She has lied to me and betrayed me on such a massive level, I need something HUGE to show me she is really dedicated to this M before I feel secure. It's really about that as well. If she can't sacrifice and take responsibility for what she did I can't respect her as a W and will end up in D when DD leaves for college anyway.

[Ninja'sHusband]

I gave my wife 90 days to no longer work with the other man. She met that requirement. But she was still a liar.

And I have no proof that my WW isn't still a liar. In fact I have proof of the opposite, that when it comes to the hard stuff, she will always lie.

[jwi71]

Maybe a reasonable compromise would be a break in her MA until she finishes her Masters(or for atleast an year). She made the mistake twice, indulging in affairs while in the sport. But I can also sympathize a bit with something that important being taken away however wrong she is. To her, her MA defines her. Give her an out("this is a temporary break") that she can compromise on.

 

I think, as a short term solution, its plausible.

 

But.

 

I'm not certain, and I don't think you are either, that your WW is WILLING to give up her dojo. Shes's been resisting that from day one.

 

She claims it defines her. It doesn't. Her ACTIONS define her. Her moral system and how she follows it DEFINE her. In short, SHE defines HERSELF.

 

She is externalizing an INTERNAL process. You are defined by your values and these values are shown to the world in ACTION. What, per her ACTIONS, does she value?

 

The MA. This dojo. Her friends.

 

Are they healthy for YOU? Your M? Clearly not. These ACTIONS aren't healthy for ANY M...ask Harley, your MC, IC, her parents, the homeless guy on the street. Its COMMON SENSE.

 

So there is NO real compromise here. There is no "middle ground".

She either values her MA, her dojo, her friends, HERSELF (selfish) above YOU and YOUR M...or she does not.

 

I know you love her. I know you value your M and your family. I know you are FIGHTING. But your WW is fighting against you.

 

At this point in time, for whatever reason(s) (and lets hope its foggy thinking)...your WW does NOT value theseyou and the M as much as she values her dojo, her MA and her friends. No sugar coating it. Its really and truly that simple.

 

And it hurts like hell. BTDT.

 

I rarely spend time on this "side" of the forum...it takes a lot of time and energy to help the BS. But I really feel for you. You remind me so much of me years ago. My xWW was EXACTLY like yours. I think that's why I identify and subsequently post so much with you. You CAN'T FORCE change. You can only create conditions for healthy choices in others. Then hope and pray they choose the healthy way.

 

At this point, and I HATE to suggest it, time to legally separate. And yes, make it legal. Doing so, making it legal, affords YOU a few protections AND makes it VERY real - and you have some custody issues to deal with. I know you don't want it. I'm not the biggest fan of it myself...but I cant see, nor have I ever since I joined this thread, another way. The point is to SAVE your M. Its NOT to punish or manipulate or any other game-playing bullshyte.

 

You leave to save your M. She doesn't value you or your M enough. In other words, she takes you for granted. You're the crutch and enabler of bad behavior. No. More. She gets a job, works, goes to school and maintains her life and gets to play single mom. Its called "life without NH". Lets HOPE your absence wakes her up and she has that "oh shyte, I miss NH" moment.

 

And if it doesn't...you got your answer as well.

 

Run it past your MC...and your lawyer.

 

It IS still possible to save this M. Try and create conditions that help her recognize YOUR value to HER. And your best shot, IMO, is to leave.

 

1) Clearly define boundaries for it.

2) Continue MC and IC.

3) I would not meet her outside of MC for the first month-ish.

4) Then date. Yes. Date. Like when you were single. On these dates, no SERIOUS talking. That's for MC. Have fun.

5) No sex while separated. The web is full of...helpful aids (This will be controversial I'm sure...but oh so effective - in a positive sense)

6) No helping her unless its about your daughter.

7) No future-faking or talks about tomorrow

8) Ignore 7 IF you feel/sense/see her ACTIONS and attitudes towards you CHANGING

 

Good luck...Im really hoping she comes around...

[Bellechica]

NH, have you prepared what you will say to your daughter? Has your W discussed this with you?

 

I simply cannot fathom having that conversation with my children.

 

You must be terrified about this. What will you say?

[Owl]

I can't even live with the thought of her going back to the place where OM is. I've learned that about myself this last week since talking to OMW.

 

She has lied to me and betrayed me on such a massive level, I need something HUGE to show me she is really dedicated to this M before I feel secure. It's really about that as well. If she can't sacrifice and take responsibility for what she did I can't respect her as a W and will end up in D when DD leaves for college anyway.

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

She needs to hear this, EXACTLY as you posted it here, directly from your lips while you're looking her in the eyes.

 

You need to state this EXACTLY this bluntly to her in your MC session on Monday.

[Furious]

I hate to say it, because you are really trying so hard to do what's best, but the marriage cannot be more important than YOU.

 

I think your wife had checked out, she has a plan. She will leave you when SHE is ready. She will leave once she finish's school and lands a job. In the meantime you will finance her escape plan.

[Wanderer25]

NH, have you prepared what you will say to your daughter? Has your W discussed this with you?

 

I simply cannot fathom having that conversation with my children.

 

You must be terrified about this. What will you say?

 

 

Commencing Bella Bashing

 

Do you realize how hypocritical this is? You had an affair, not a ONS. You had more than enough time to think about it while looking at them every day.

[Ninja'sHusband]

NH, have you prepared what you will say to your daughter? Has your W discussed this with you?

 

I simply cannot fathom having that conversation with my children.

 

You must be terrified about this. What will you say?

I wrote a draft last night and sent it to WW. The most painful book I've ever read was "Good Divorce". I also read some of "Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way" and I agree with some of what they say. It's been a long slow conscious and subconscious process but I finally came up with the best explanation I could. Yes, this is the part I have dreaded most of all, the ultimate pain. I can't believe I finished that letter last night. I hope reading it rips my WW's heart out and makes her see what is happening. I can't imagine anything worse than that letter.

[Ninja'sHusband]

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

She needs to hear this, EXACTLY as you posted it here, directly from your lips while you're looking her in the eyes.

 

You need to state this EXACTLY this bluntly to her in your MC session on Monday.

If she doesn't get kicked out of the dojo tonight, I might just do that.

 

 

Actually I kinda told her bits of that the night before last. She literally didn't even comprehend what I had said. She was like "what? I don't understand". I didn't bother elaborating, we moved on to other stuff.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[Bellechica]

If there is any hope left at all NH, it WILL rip out her heart.

 

Wanderer, yes I had an A and lead a double life. Last year was the worst year of my life. I don't need to be reminded.....

[2sunny]

I think, as a short term solution, its plausible.

 

But.

 

I'm not certain, and I don't think you are either, that your WW is WILLING to give up her dojo. Shes's been resisting that from day one.

 

She claims it defines her. It doesn't. Her ACTIONS define her. Her moral system and how she follows it DEFINE her. In short, SHE defines HERSELF.

 

She is externalizing an INTERNAL process. You are defined by your values and these values are shown to the world in ACTION. What, per her ACTIONS, does she value?

 

The MA. This dojo. Her friends.

 

Are they healthy for YOU? Your M? Clearly not. These ACTIONS aren't healthy for ANY M...ask Harley, your MC, IC, her parents, the homeless guy on the street. Its COMMON SENSE.

 

So there is NO real compromise here. There is no "middle ground".

She either values her MA, her dojo, her friends, HERSELF (selfish) above YOU and YOUR M...or she does not.

 

I know you love her. I know you value your M and your family. I know you are FIGHTING. But your WW is fighting against you.

 

At this point in time, for whatever reason(s) (and lets hope its foggy thinking)...your WW does NOT value theseyou and the M as much as she values her dojo, her MA and her friends. No sugar coating it. Its really and truly that simple.

 

And it hurts like hell. BTDT.

 

I rarely spend time on this "side" of the forum...it takes a lot of time and energy to help the BS. But I really feel for you. You remind me so much of me years ago. My xWW was EXACTLY like yours. I think that's why I identify and subsequently post so much with you. You CAN'T FORCE change. You can only create conditions for healthy choices in others. Then hope and pray they choose the healthy way.

 

At this point, and I HATE to suggest it, time to legally separate. And yes, make it legal. Doing so, making it legal, affords YOU a few protections AND makes it VERY real - and you have some custody issues to deal with. I know you don't want it. I'm not the biggest fan of it myself...but I cant see, nor have I ever since I joined this thread, another way. The point is to SAVE your M. Its NOT to punish or manipulate or any other game-playing bullshyte.

 

You leave to save your M. She doesn't value you or your M enough. In other words, she takes you for granted. You're the crutch and enabler of bad behavior. No. More. She gets a job, works, goes to school and maintains her life and gets to play single mom. Its called "life without NH". Lets HOPE your absence wakes her up and she has that "oh shyte, I miss NH" moment.

 

And if it doesn't...you got your answer as well.

 

Run it past your MC...and your lawyer.

 

It IS still possible to save this M. Try and create conditions that help her recognize YOUR value to HER. And your best shot, IMO, is to leave.

 

1) Clearly define boundaries for it.

2) Continue MC and IC.

3) I would not meet her outside of MC for the first month-ish.

4) Then date. Yes. Date. Like when you were single. On these dates, no SERIOUS talking. That's for MC. Have fun.

5) No sex while separated. The web is full of...helpful aids (This will be controversial I'm sure...but oh so effective - in a positive sense)

6) No helping her unless its about your daughter.

7) No future-faking or talks about tomorrow

8) Ignore 7 IF you feel/sense/see her ACTIONS and attitudes towards you CHANGING

 

Good luck...Im really hoping she comes around...

 

This is very good!

[2sunny]

And I have no proof that my WW isn't still a liar. In fact I have proof of the opposite' date=' that when it comes to the hard stuff, she will always lie.[/quote']

 

I would tell her this straight up! Tell her so SHE understands that a marriage without trust isn't a relationship at all... And what she is doing is hurting your M.

 

And you didn't break up this M - it's on your W. I wish I could see you growing from that place where you seem to own her behavior. She did this - not you.

[Wanderer25]

Wasn't NH planning to support her Masters even if they D??

[Ninja'sHusband]

Wasn't NH planning to support her Masters even if they D??

I'll help, but there's no way I'm paying for the whole thing. I'm going to end up supporting her w/living expenses regardless. It's gonna be massively bad financially. 2 sets of bills, less than half the living space. From house with yard to apartments.... It's a nightmare.

[jwi71]

I wrote a draft last night and sent it to WW. The most painful book I've ever read was "Good Divorce". I also read some of "Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way" and I agree with some of what they say. It's been a long slow conscious and subconscious process but I finally came up with the best explanation I could. Yes' date=' this is the part I have dreaded most of all, the ultimate pain. I can't believe I finished that letter last night. I hope reading it rips my WW's heart out and makes her see what is happening. I can't imagine anything worse than that letter.[/quote']

 

I remember vividly telling my 5 year old daughter and 3 year old son. Son didn't really listen or understand - too young.

 

I can remember exactly what I said - this is 95% verbatim:

 

"Mommy and Daddy love you very much - you mean the world to us both. Mommy is going to live somewhere else and Mommy and Daddy will be living apart from now on. Never forget though, even though your Mommy and Daddy live apart, we both love you so very much. Now...would you like to go see Mommy's new place and your new rooms? I bet you'll like it"

 

Said with a smile and a happy face. As if it was some neat new adventure.

 

Inside, I was twisting with pain and hate.

[jwi71]

I'll help' date=' but there's no way I'm paying for the whole thing. I'm going to end up supporting her w/living expenses regardless. It's gonna be massively bad financially. 2 sets of bills, less than half the living space. From house with yard to apartments.... It's a nightmare.[/quote']

 

Run it past your lawyer.

I think, and its my experience with the law (at least in Texas), that if she is able bodied then work supersedes school.

 

I'm also fairly certain you AREN'T required to pay for her masters. There are these things called student loans....

 

Again...all questions to run past your lawyer.

[Trimmer]

NH, have you prepared what you will say to your daughter? Has your W discussed this with you?

 

I simply cannot fathom having that conversation with my children.

 

You must be terrified about this. What will you say?

 

Commencing Bella Bashing

 

Do you realize how hypocritical this is? You had an affair, not a ONS. You had more than enough time to think about it while looking at them every day.

Since this is NH's thread, and not Bella's, I would like to point out that her comments and questions were quite reasonable and appropriate in the context of the thread, irrespective of her own background. I had the same concerns and questions at the time I went through a very similar split to what NH is experiencing, and I have great empathy for him, in his personal pain, in his grief over the possible loss to his daughter, and in solidarity with a parent asking himself "what am I going to say?"

 

I also wanted to go on a little rant to those who thought he wasn't being tough enough early on, or that he didn't "come around" as quickly as he should have, in spite of all the advice and pounding he was getting.... I was very much in his shoes 7 years ago, and in retrospect, I found that the process was unexpectedly a 2 step loss. There's the loss of your wife, and then there's the loss of what you imagined your child's life would be.

 

Both of these are significant. They are two distinct things, but each one pulls at - and complicates - the other one. In my case, the fear of what I was about to put my children through made me willing to do anything to preserve my marriage, so I didn't set and defend firm boundaries because I thought I might push things over the edge... I offered to do anything to make it work... I didn't do a whole lot other than hurt, while I waited. Sound familiar?

 

Because once I came to terms and accepted the likely loss of my wife - maybe with the help of a little righteous anger to get me going - then right around the corner came the loss to my children and a feeling of failure that I was trying mightily to avoid.

 

I know all the old clichés that we spout to make ourselves feel better about this: how the children will be fine, how they are resilient, how you "don't want your daughter to grow up with a bad role model", and all that. And I accept them to varying degrees, albeit with significant qualifications. (The one I hate is "they'd rather be from a broken home than live in one." I think that's a great sounding bumper sticker, but not much more use than that in its over-simplicity, especially when you're talking about kids aged in the single-digits.)

 

However, none of those soothes your soul, when you compare what you thought you had - a stable family with two parents providing a good role model of a relationship - with where you seem to be headed: a divided home.

 

Even with the best of post-split co-parenting, you still suffer for the loss to your child. Maybe what was lost was just an image, a dream - what you had hoped for for them - but it is another loss to grieve. Say what you will about resilience and try to spin it that it's better for the child somehow - some of that is true, and some of it is us adults making ourselves feel better - either way, for a caring parent like NH, it's still a hard one to take, and those layers go on top of the loss of your spouse.

 

Having said that, and looking back with 7 years of perspective, I think in my case, it was inevitable. My wife was who she was, and I wasn't going to be able to change her; ending up here seems like the most probable outcome, even in retrospect. As I've been watching NH's situation evolve, I see some of that, although I'm not predicting an outcome - just the common thread that she is who she is, and it will depend on whether she chooses to change and work on her life, not whether NH can force her to change. He certainly can - and should - declare boundaries and set up the conditions for her to change if she chooses to, and has the self-awareness to pull it off. But she will be who she is, and at this point, that will drive the situation.

 

So I have no less admiration or respect for NH that he took a while getting to the next steps. I know what he was going through - you have to endure this pain, and then there's another different one coming right after it. It's almost unbearable, and you wait until there's really no other way.

 

So NH - my respect, my support to you. What little advice I have to offer is simple and metaphorical: keep moving forward - slowly if you need - but think about - focus on - the future. You don't have to have a clear vision of exactly what that will be yet - part of life sometimes is in not knowing for sure - but you will move into the future. It will be OK.

 

If you end up divorcing, you will grieve and be angry - sometimes intensely - but these will cleanse you and they will subside in time. You will still be an awesome father - nothing about this crappy situation changes that - and I believe you will be a good coparent, in whatever arrangement you forge with your daughter's mother.

[Wanderer25]

He thinks that she sacrificed her career for the family.

[Trimmer]

I'll help' date=' but there's no way I'm paying for the whole thing. I'm going to end up supporting her w/living expenses regardless. It's gonna be massively bad financially. 2 sets of bills, less than half the living space. From house with yard to apartments.... It's a nightmare.[/quote']

Please don't make any specific promises right now, even verbally - especially if your generosity is specific to your wife. You an always choose to be generous later; for now, reserve your generosity while you're in the middle of this maelstrom. You will provide for your daughter, and you should assume her mom will do her part as well. Other than that, you need to see how your finances pencil out before making any additional commitments.

 

To repeat - you can still be as generous as you choose, once you are out the other side and with the benefit of some hoped-for future clarity. Don't lock youself in to any unnecessary commitments right now.

[Trimmer]

I remember vividly telling my 5 year old daughter and 3 year old son. Son didn't really listen or understand - too young.

 

I can remember exactly what I said - this is 95% verbatim:

 

"Mommy and Daddy love you very much - you mean the world to us both. Mommy is going to live somewhere else and Mommy and Daddy will be living apart from now on. Never forget though, even though your Mommy and Daddy live apart, we both love you so very much. Now...would you like to go see Mommy's new place and your new rooms? I bet you'll like it"

 

Said with a smile and a happy face. As if it was some neat new adventure.

 

Inside, I was twisting with pain and hate.

 

Here was my experience with our 6 & 8 year old, almost 7 years ago now...

[2sunny]

He thinks that she sacrificed her career for the family.

 

But she didn't really... Mainly because she made a career out of her MA - she just wasn't getting paid for her choice to spend that much time and energy on her choice of "career".

[2sunny]

I'll help' date=' but there's no way I'm paying for the whole thing. I'm going to end up supporting her w/living expenses regardless. It's gonna be massively bad financially. 2 sets of bills, less than half the living space. From house with yard to apartments.... It's a nightmare.[/quote']

 

When sheis awarded spousal support by the court - that should be ALL she gets. She can CHOOSE to spend it however she wishes.

 

You don't need to pay for anything above that for your wife. She WILL learn these are her consequences to her choices.

 

Your daughter is separate as you will learn and adjust to her needs. She should not be punished for your wife's decisions.

 

You can deal with them separately. You can allow your daughter peace of mind that you are always going to support what's in her best interest.