Wife made stupid mistake

[DazednConfused]

Ah Owl and WW,

 

Always calm voices of reason injected into the maelstrom that is my psyche.

 

So what was her intent in providing you this latest tidbit of information? Was it to let you know the last, final secret she'd been hiding, so that it would all FINALLY out in the open?

 

I do believe this was her intent. She began her note to me with something like "Since reading your book, I now understand that you need to know everything..." She also disclosed that the two of them had gone to more than one walking path...

 

She also said in her note..."I am sure there are other things you do not yet know and I will write them down as I recall them." - Now there's something to look forward to...quite frankly, this just isn't stuff that most people conveniently "forget".

 

Have you talked about what she wrote, why she wrote it, what she read from your stuff???

 

What she wrote - yes. What she read of mine - not in depth.

 

she made the statement that "You haven't forgiven me. If you had forgiven me, you would forget about what happened." She really just cannot understand how enormous what she did was...and how impossible forgetting it is for me (at least right now).

 

I received the same statement Saturday evening verbatim. Forgetting is not an option; forgiving will happen when she finally realizes what she's done. Perhaps I am oversensitive and really should just get past it. What the hell! Our conversations regarding the affair go like so.... I bring it up....she cries....I get numb....she cries smore because I seem so cold....I tell her it is to protect myself....she cries because I have to protect myself, etc.

 

I will begin IC with yet another new counselor this week. We will see how it goes.

 

-Dazed

[ThumbingMyWay]

Originally posted by DazednConfused

So I walk into my office on Friday afternoon and find an envelope. On the front it says "Have I told you everything? (For when you are ready)" Well, goddamn DUH! Of course I read it immediately!

 

Dazed,

 

I have thought alot about details. And there are a ton I dont know yet. And to be honest I am trying be best to just move on and not dwell NOR ask for anymore details. The truth is all I need to know. And that is my wife had an emo and phy affair with her boss, she ended it and wanst to make things right within herself and our M. I know some of the things they did...but not all....and right now...i really dont want to know, casue all they do is send me into my box of fear and insecurity.

[whichwayisup]

Anytime, I am holding in alot of what I am thinking because it won't help you to hear that my face is as red as my hair right now...You know what I mean...Talking about wanting to box somebody's ears in for ya!!

 

All I can just do for you is let you know I feel for what you're going through and hopefully in time she will get it together and PUT YOU FIRST instead of dropping bombs on you...She has to think of you and your hurt not her own fears and hurts...I think she needs councilling on her own - Big time. She needs to UNDERSTAND what she's done and accept that responsibility 100%...Maybe it is time for her to actually come on LS and read your thread again and then she'll gain the insight of what you are going through and the advice you're getting here.

 

I'm glad that you are doing IC for you. You know I'm a big pusher when it comes to therapy...Taking pills is one thing to make one feel better but dealing with all the other stuff is harder...I'm not telling you anything you don't know already.

 

Take care today.

[PatientOne]

Dazed,

 

Perhaps you should stop having your wife reveal any more. You already know all you need to, and each new revelation will only drag you back to square one. Any further facts she come out with will only erode any chance you have of getting past this.

 

The down side of this is that if you ever find out something she omitted later down the road, it will destroy any progress you've made to that point. But that might be a chance worth taking.

 

The only thing you need to know now is that she's done with this behavior. This will keep you busy enough, until you feel comfortable trusting her again. If ever.

 

I have been through all of this myself, though I didn't handle it as gracefully as you have so far. Hang in there and do what you have to do to protect yourself.

[Cis]

Dazed~

 

I can speak from experience - your wife feels so lost and doesn't know how she will every be able to fix what she broke. She is very embarassed and ashamed and wishes she could just wake up from the terrible nightmare.

 

I ask myself - why did I let this happen? Why did a very crazy, inappropriate, lying, narcisistic, borderline personality, unattractive slime bag captivate me? That's what I'm trying to figure out - and that is what my husband wants to know.

 

But remember Dazed, that your wife is with you NOW. She wants to make it up to you. She wants to be married to you, love you, and die with you. Please don't let her poor judgment and stupid mistake rob you both of the opportunity of a lifetime - now that everything is out and on the table - you can get into some radical honesty and make the very best marriage.

 

This is what of course what I want - but my husband is detaching more everyday. He acts indifferent and it makes me very sad.

 

 

 

Cis

[Owl]

Dazed-

 

Here's my thoughts.

 

Let your wife know that whenever she's going into hysterics like she's doing, that's actually PREVENTING the two of you from actually working out the problem. She needs to stop reacting, and start working to fix the problem. In truth, both of you do. It's hard as heck, but it's the only way you can make any real progress.

 

I gave Sys some advice on how to talk about the affair in his thread...take a look at that and see if that's any help for you. I'd also suggest that if that fails, then what may work is a form of de-sensitization....in other words, let her get so upset that she cries herself into hysterics, and when she does, let her know that you're totally unable to work on the problems when she's acting like that, and walk away and let her finish her cry. As soon as she's done, THEN try to carry on a rational conversation...if she goes back into hysterics, let her know that you're not able to work on anything when she's going on like that, and walk away. Keep that pattern going...what will happen is that she'll eventually get wore down to a point where she just can't physically keep carrying on like that...and THEN you can have a rational conversation.

 

My daughter carries on this way whenever she's got a problem, and this is exactly how I handle it. I just can't do anything for her when all she will do is sit there crying...so, once she finally gets emotionally worn down to where she can't cry anymore, we can sit and talk about the problem.

 

I know that you've not had the greatest luck with MC, but you might also try to find another one. Our MC hasn't given us any vast amounts of wordly wisdom...but what he HAS provided is a neutral meeting ground where we can TALK about things that are otherwise too hard for us to deal with by ourselves. He can help keep things civil, and help to organize the flow of our conversation...and that really has been the biggest benifit of counseling. You might look for someone who could provide that kind of support for you and your wife.

 

Lastly- I know that not a lot of people will agree with me, but I do feel that there needs to be something of a 'statute of limitations' when it comes to the affair. You have been aware that your wife and an EA/PA with this guy...knowing the where and other details really doesn't change the fact that you've made the choice to forgive her and work on your marriage. At some point, you do need to make the choice simply to drive on and try to let go of what the details were in the past. What she did was wrong, it was horrible, and it was the most painful thing she could ever have done to you. But, it sounds to me like she's STOPPED doing it, she regrets that it ever happened, and she's sworn and given evidence by action that she's never going to allow it to happen again. So you can't continue to hold someone hostage with the past. I've forgiven my wife...and that's that. Yes, it still hurts. Yes, it still comes to mind. Yes, I still have the occasional question...but I don't bother to ask them anymore, because the answer to the question won't have any bearing on what I do with her from here. It won't change my plans for the future.

 

REMEMBER THIS: SHE'S STILL THE SAME WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN WORKING ON RE-BUILDING YOUR MARRIAGE WITH YOU THIS WHOLE TIME...NOTHING HAS CHANGED THAT.

 

Now...she HAS been holding back on information...give some thought on why that might be. Odds are, she was doing it to protect herself...she felt that if you knew the full extent, you wouldn't have forgiven her. It problably didn't occur to her that NOT knowing the full extent could result in you not forgiving her. Re-read that last sentence.

 

So...right now. Decide this...do you REALLY need to know more? Will knowing the rest of it change your choice to work on your marriage? Will it change your love for her? Or will it just make you feel worse?

 

Try to hang in there friend...that rollercoaster is a beeacth at times!

[DazednConfused]

Thank you one and all.

 

I guess the crux of things is this: I still have issues that I need to talk through with her. I feel badly each time I begin, and so I simply don't do it when I should. I think some of the things I am still learning about are things that Owl, TMW and others had the foresight to cover very much earlier in the process.

 

I'm still asking because I am hoping to get something that will help me understand. As a pragmatist, I tend to see most actions as reactions. I am just looking for the missing pieces of the puzzle. Further, many parts of her story just do not add up to this day; they gnaw at me. When I see her try to just forget the whole thing I get a little crazy. I know it is a natural reaction to guilt and embarrassment, but I cannot let her get past without me. We need to get past together.

 

It is no secret that I have always adored and loved my wife. It is also no secret that I am not dealing well with the aftermath within my own head, i.e. resentment, obsession, vigilance. It just galls me that I certainly expected better of her. Indeed, I deserved better from her. I can't go back and change a thing. It's broken, and the best we can do is patch it up. Things will ever be different...can they be better? I think so. Will they? <shrug> don't know.

 

What each of you has done for me is to help me regain my perspective. Spend too much time inside your own head and just watch the molehill turn into Everest.

 

One day at a time. This too shall pass.

 

Thank you.

 

-Dazed

[fleafly]

Hey Dazed, I just cant begin to tell you how sorry I am that you are going through this. I have to say, and I am sure that there are alot of people that have read your story, you are the one person in here that I have relied on the most, partly because our stories are somewhat similar, but mostly because your words have described exactly how I have felt, and am still feeling.

 

And I also know why you are still beating yourself up with this, trying to find a reason to help you understand, but I am not sure you ever will. The one thing that I realized , why my wife strayed is pretty simple. She was duped. Pure and simple. The OM preyed on what my wife was telling him was missing in our marriage, and he took advantage of it. She told him that I didnt compliment her enough, he in turn made it a point of doing this to her, she said it made her feel "special". She told him that I never wanted to take her out to dinner, he responded in kind. She told him about a weekend that we spent together at a bed and breakfast, an experience that I didnt particulary enjoy, they spent two nites together doing this. Knowing all of this doesnt make things any easier for me, I can tell you that. It makes me realize how shallow and immature of a person my wife has become, to be honest. The fact that she would leave me at home with the kids so she could spend the night with him on not one, but two occasions, then tell me that she never thought of it "that way".Of course I am sparing the details, like how she told me the 2nd time she did this( not to long ago, I might add) as soon as she got to the hotel, she felt "sick to her stomach" and just wanted to go "home". A few drinks, a nite of sex followed by a little more of the same the next morning before she came home to the kids erased this "sick" feeling she had, apparently. The list goes on and on, as it does for you Im sure.

 

i guess what I am trying to say is, maybe some time apart from one another would help you out? My wife told me that she let this thing drag on for so long because she never thought I would leave her. Big mistake. Finding out about this **** was the most devastating thing that has ever happened to me, by far. I let MW read your book, she sat there and cried, saying she could never imagine how much pain she caused me, since I could really never convey in my own words how much I hurt. That lasted about a day. Ive decided to work on myself for awhile, Im not sure how long that could take, but to be honest, I really dont care. If I have a marriage to come back to when I get some closure on this, so be it. If not well I will still take something from this, learn from my petty mistakes that have costed me so dearly. Sorry if I am bitter, just the mood Im in at the moment.

[Owl]

Dazed-

 

The need to understand the affair and how it happened is one that I think almost all of us share. The problem is, we all try to sort that out, when in truth, it's pretty much impossible to really 'make sense' out of nonsense.

 

Most of us reach a point where we start to recognize that there isn't any more 'sense' to be made out of it...it was what it was. I'm not saying that I don't have a tendency to dwell on it in my own head, just as you do. But I've given up asking for more clarification from my wife...because for me at least there doesn't seem to be much benefit from hearing anymore for me. I don't think she's still hiding anything tho...that may be the biggest difference in our cases tho.

 

None of us deserved what our spouses did to us. From what you've described about how you feel right now, it sounds to me that you haven't yet really been able to forgive her. You're still holding on to the anger, and the blame. I don't know what to tell you to help you let that go, other than to hope that you understand that neither of you, nor your relationship, can really heal until that does happen. I'm not angry with my wife anymore...and what's done is done. As long as I can keep the knowledge that it won't happen again, then we're able to keep building. If I ever truly feel like it's going to happen again, THEN the stuff will hit the fan. I was totally unable to begin forgiving her in truth until I knew that she was willing to repair our marriage. Once I knew that this wasn't going to end our marriage, I was able to forgive her for what she'd done up to that point.

 

I'm not sure if this helps you any friend, but I guess what I really wanted to do was to get you started thinking about what forgiveness really is, and what YOU will require in order to really give that. Give that some thought...

 

Hang in there friend!

[ThumbingMyWay]

Originally posted by fleafly

And I also know why you are still beating yourself up with this, trying to find a reason to help you understand, but I am not sure you ever will. The one thing that I realized , why my wife strayed is pretty simple. She was duped. Pure and simple. The OM preyed on what my wife was telling him was missing in our marriage, and he took advantage of it. She told him that I didnt compliment her enough, he in turn made it a point of doing this to her, she said it made her feel "special". She told him that I never wanted to take her out to dinner, he responded in kind.

 

Originally posted by Owl

The need to understand the affair and how it happened is one that I think almost all of us share. The problem is, we all try to sort that out, when in truth, it's pretty much impossible to really 'make sense' out of nonsense.

 

Most of us reach a point where we start to recognize that there isn't any more 'sense' to be made out of it...it was what it was

 

 

Ya know....I;ve gone round and round on this too.

 

She felt I didnt care anymore....because I didnt do or say similar things to what Flea said....I didnt meet some of her needs.....she took this as I didnt care anymore....so she didnt care anymore....and she became vulnerable.....her gaurd was down....and in came the OM. telling her how beautiful she was on the outside and inside.....they talked....they shared.....next thing you know....there are in a emo affair....which altimately led to phy affair.

 

I think the betrayer gets to a point where thye are so fogged...that they justify what they are doing...without thinking about the ramifications. Just last night, my wife and I spoke about, what she was thinking the outcome would be of all of this. And she said....she really didnt think about it....the affair and times they spent together...were for the moment....long term outcomes were just not in the picture.

 

If my wife knew what the ramifications would be...I dont think she would have let it get tis far. If she would of came to me first....we wouldnt be here right now. BUT we LOST all communication.....becasue we just didnt know....relationships lose sight of there purpose...and people wander subconsciencesly.....she didnt plan this....but it did happen....but she also accepted the fact that she LET THIS HAPPEN.....she chased him and vice versa...

 

SO I accept it for what it is......My wife strayed by her choice....but also becasue I wasnt doing my part. But knowing what we know now, we can build on this problem and stirve for a much better place.

 

I belive in God....and if you are a believer....then you believe that God has a plan for your entire life. As hard as it is to accept.....this WAS SUPPOSE to happen to my wife and I. It is something that we had to experince in our time here on Earth. NOW...what we do with this is up to us......and we choose to stay together and make things right. We choose to get out of the co-dependency and are striving for co-commitment. We are choosing to let this situ make us stronger.

 

WE are choosing to learn from this to make us stronger.....

 

Regression will happen, as it is with yuo Dazed...BUT its what we do with this feeling is what counts....move on OR move out......day by day brother......

[fleafly]

Owl, you are exactly right when you say that Dazed is having a problem letting go of his anger, maybe someone could elaborate on how exactly they accomplished this! I say that because I believe it to be impossile, at least in my case! This is something that is EMBEDDED in me, Im not really sure I will ever be able to let go. They say time heals all wounds, not really sure about that. Anyone see Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind ?!?

 

I guess it will be interesting to see what happens with Dazed in IC. I will say this, if he/she uses the same techniques that was used on me, having him close his eyes and go to this imaginary place..... I tried explaining to my counselor some of the things I was feeling, experiencing, how one minute I would be thinking about how much I loved my wife, and how it would be such a shame to have to walk away from all of that, the next minute thinking **** all that, knowing in my head that this is never going to leave me, that as long as I was with her I would be miserable, and Im not going to live my life that way.

 

And to touch on Thumbs post quickly, the way I tried dealing with this was by reading The 5 love Languages. This is another book I would recommend btw, thanks Moose! My problem is/was, my language is physical touch. The dilemma is, the book states that if this is a persons love language, and this person is betrayed by a PA, it will be almost impossible for that person to let go of that.

[Owl]

Owl, you are exactly right when you say that Dazed is having a problem letting go of his anger, maybe someone could elaborate on how exactly they accomplished this! I say that because I believe it to be impossile, at least in my case!

 

Well, I can tell you what I did to let go of the anger. I did everything I could to understand WHY the affair happened...not concentrating so much on WHAT the affair consisted of, but of what her motivations were leading up to the affair, during the affair, and even during the withdrawl phase after the affair. I put myself in HER shoes, tried seeing things from her perspective. Guess what...it didn't 'justify' her affair by any means, but at least I could understand what went on in her mind. I didn't let her get away with blaming me for all the problems, which is exactly what she tried to do during the 'withdrawl' and initial counseling sessions.

 

I realized something about my wife during that time...her brain was screwed up. She was in no way capable of thinking or acting like a rational, normal human being. Which was amazing to me, as my wife is a very intelligent lady who's quite capable. To see her in that light was an eye opener.

 

So, now I can see what she saw leading up to the affair...from HER viewpoint, our constant disagreemant on how to deal with the kids, her desperate need to avoid her OWN role in creating the distance between us, combined with depression and just a lot of stress from dealing with four teenagers in the house added up. Again, it didn't justify it, but I can now follow what went on.

 

But I also remembered our marriage PRIOR to this time frame. It wasn't perfection, but we'd had a VERY good relationship for at least 15 years before the downhill slide. I knew how good things could be, when we were working together.

 

I accepted MY part in contributing to the downhill slide...NOT that her affair was my fault, by any means.

 

Once she was able to see what she'd done, she'd started showing true remorse and regret for what she had done to ME, and our marriage, and began to actively work on fixing things between us, it became easier to deal with. I listened to HER viewpoint in counseling, and actually tried to understand it. I started to understand what motivated her to do some of the stupid things that she'd done...even when SHE couldn't understand it.

 

Understanding what the problem was, and seeing her work with me to fix the problems was key. I had to see her regret, and her attempting to take ownership of her mistakes. And when I started to get my OLD wife back (not the one who acted as though she'd been abducted by aliens), it was much easier to deal with things. Knowing what she did, why she did what she did, and knowing that she wanted to fix it and do everything in her power to fix US and ensure that we'd never get back into this kind of situation again was what let me let go of the anger. Why keep anger over something that even SHE wishes never happened? Now, if there was no remorse, no work to fix things, continuing secrets and lies, etc....all of those things would prevent that forgiveness, and would bring the anger on full force.

 

Let me ask you this...have you read any of the stuff over on marriagebuilders.com? There is a great letter there that talks about the steps to recovery...and one of those steps says that the "WS needs to make amends with the BS". In other words, your wife should pay a price for what she's done. That doesn't have to be divorce...it could well be that she needs to start doing SOMETHING to support your marriage, or to help you heal...like learning what you need from your wife, and agreeing to meet those.

 

Give these things some thought.

 

Flea- After reading your whole posts, I DO wonder if you have the ability to forgive your wife. Bluntly, you just strike me as an angry guy. You don't forgive easily for ANY offense, and an offense of this size may very well be beyond YOUR ability to forgive. You did a number of things to demonstrate your anger in the beginning that demonstrated that your anger is not a rational thing. It controls you, you don't control it. I could be wrong, but if I'm right, then I really don't see any chance for your marriage, in my humble opinion. Not unless something prompts YOU to make changes to yourself.

 

Dazed- You strike me as a less angry guy, but one like me who tends to hold things in and internalize them. I struggle with that a lot at times, but the trick is to find a way to get things worked through in your mind so that you can let that anger out. Try chatting with a counselor on that thought if you like.

[fleafly]

Owl, great post, once again you got me thinking again. I know you are right about my situation, I do have a hard time forgiving, I have had experiences in my life that have made me this way. Which was kind of the point I am trying to make. The thing that screwed me up the most, and this seems to be the case with Dazed, is knowing the lurid details, This consumes me, and Im sure everbody in the same situation would feel the exact same way, how could you not?? Its been almost a year since Dazed found out about this, and he still has not been able to let go of it. This scares the **** out of me, to be completely honest. I cannot even imagine feeling the way the he and I feel for that long. And we sometimes have to face the facts that all marriages cannot be saved, Im assuming for reasons like this.

 

That said, and I obviously cant make a point without bringing up my own anger and resentment(sorry) but WHAT exactly can a person do to overcome this? I think that from what Dazed has previously written in this thread as well as in his book, that no therapy such as what I have experienced will help him through this, which is why I suggested that time apart might beable to clear his mind.

[PatientOne]

Originally posted by Owl

Well, I can tell you what I did to let go of the anger. I did everything I could to understand WHY the affair happened...not concentrating so much on WHAT the affair consisted of, but of what her motivations were leading up to the affair, during the affair, and even during the withdrawl phase after the affair. I put myself in HER shoes, tried seeing things from her perspective. Guess what...it didn't 'justify' her affair by any means, but at least I could understand what went on in her mind. I didn't let her get away with blaming me for all the problems, which is exactly what she tried to do during the 'withdrawl' and initial counseling sessions.

 

...

 

Give these things some thought.

 

Flea- After reading your whole posts, I DO wonder if you have the ability to forgive your wife. Bluntly, you just strike me as an angry guy. You don't forgive easily for ANY offense, and an offense of this size may very well be beyond YOUR ability to forgive. You did a number of things to demonstrate your anger in the beginning that demonstrated that your anger is not a rational thing. It controls you, you don't control it. I could be wrong, but if I'm right, then I really don't see any chance for your marriage, in my humble opinion. Not unless something prompts YOU to make changes to yourself.

 

Dazed- You strike me as a less angry guy, but one like me who tends to hold things in and internalize them. I struggle with that a lot at times, but the trick is to find a way to get things worked through in your mind so that you can let that anger out. Try chatting with a counselor on that thought if you like.

 

I really have to make a comment here.

 

Owl, bear in mind your situation is not the same as what these men have to deal with. Your wife never had another penis in her. Theirs did.

 

Now please understand that I am not discounting what you've had to go through. Your wife's EA had to be a terrible experience that you will continue to deal with. I'm NOT minimizing it's impact on you.

 

But I do want you to know that until you have to deal with what these men are dealing with, you won't know how incredibly deep the pain and anger can set in. I understand every statement made by Dazed and Flea (and many others here) that perhaps you won't fully understand unless this happens to you. You won't be wondering if the OM was better in some ways or reached a part of her that you hadn't. Your nemesis was far away (though a very dangerous threat to your marriage, granted). These men have to deal with OM that may live nearby.

 

My point is that both Dazed and Flea are handling things as well as could be expected. I don't think they are any angrier per se than anyone else in this position. Just bear in mind that they are dealing with things you aren't.

 

I did PM you earlier, and hope you will still reply to it. You made some very interesting points I'd like to hear your opinion on.

[veryremorseful]

Hi,

 

I have never posted on this thread but I see this thread and I see it is very active so I am going to use it to help me a little.

 

I am the woman who had a very brief fling with a colleague at work and ended up kissing him and later feeling very gulity.

 

I have a few questions about triggers and my own feelings.

 

My H gets very upset with any kind of kiss on TV. ( Like Alladin and Jasmine kissing in cartoon or Ray and Debra kissing in "Everybody loves Raymond") He tries hard but he cannot sometimes get over it. The tapes of that guy kissing me keeps on rolling in his head over and over. Is there anything I could do to reduce the triggers?

 

I feel very remorseful and cry a lot. Sometimes I cannot come out of the depth of sadness I feel myself in. I think I am very depressed. Sometimes when my H mentions anything of the affair I get totally upset and go into hysteria. This upsets my H a lot. Is this normal WW reaction?

 

Sometimes it feels we are making progress but sometimes we feel we are back wherever we started. Its almost 4 months since DDay.

[fleafly]

Remorseful, I cant really comment on what you could do to prevent this, but I can tell you I go through the exact same thing. Whether its on the tv, such as watching an episode of Sienfeld with my wife about a month ago, all of a sudden George is having an affair with a married woman, to the newspaper or internet, for instance the news of late about Prince Charles getting married , and the affair he had when he was married to Diana. Lots of things like this just bother the since out of me, such as my wifes sudden change in music taste while the affair was going on.

 

And to Patientone's posts, yea you kind of hit it right on the head. I do realize the pain that Owl has felt because of his wife's emotional affair, but pick up any book and it will explain rather easily that these feelings being felt were not really real. Its funny, but my wife telling me that she was in love with this guy doesnt bother me at all, mainly because she quickly realize that their relationship wasnt based on reality. The number of times they had sex, the places she had sex, the positions, well I think you get the idea. I get no joy or sense of pride knowing that MY WIFE was having sex with someone in the back seat of a car in some parking lot, or meeting someone at a ****ing hotel for the sole purpose of ****ing someone. And I am not saying my marriage is over and done with, Im just saying that Im in no hurry to try and repair it, Ive read enough stories in here of people rushing to try and fix something when they are basically in shock, only to realize 6 months or a year down the line that nothing has changed, putting them right back at square one. I tried to find a reason to forgive my wife, I tried going to marriage counseling. Any other ideas? How does someone forgive something like this?

[Linlin]

It's terrible to see some many people hurting and still hurting after a long period of time has gone by. I discovered my H affair as Dazed knows over a year ago. I ended our marriage since his conduct in the few months following discovery and still till this day tends to be reprehensible.

 

I made him tell me every single, litle detail and that helped me. I had no unanswered questions about it. I did the counselling thing but he was still unsure who he was "choosing" so we stopped it together, but I did a few sessions by myself.

 

The pain does get better when you deal with it and let it go to either forgive and move forward or leave. I choose the later and I am at peace now with my decision and my life is generally good. That is why it hurts me to hear about other like Dazed still suffering.

 

It may sound goofy but Dr. Phil makes some excellent points:

 

It is absolutely vital for you to move forward with life and love. Being willing to trust again is key. Take things one step at a time. If you can't do that it is time to leave. Life is too short and you need to think about your own happiness.

 

Don't try to make sense out of nonsense. Rationalizing your cheating spouse's behavior or sympathizing with him/her is pointless. It is never OK to go outside of your relationship to solve problems within a relationship.

 

Time heals nothing. It is what you do with the time that matters.

 

Remember that it is better to be healthy alone than sick with someone else. I choose to do this and I am better for it.

 

If your partner wants back in, he/she will have to earn his/her way back into the relationship. Renegotiate the relationship in a way that works for both of you.

 

There comes a point in time where you may have to draw a line and say, "That's it, I'm done. I'm not mad at you. I withdraw my feelings, I withdraw my emotions. You just go do whatever you're going to do because I'm not going to live like this anymore."

 

I am at the point where I am ready to divorce him now. The anger is gone and I can walk away without any hate, etc.

 

I wish you all some peace. Take care of yourselves.

[DazednConfused]

Thank you all for your kindness.

 

I was called away to Portland and so was unable to continue posting for a while, but returned yesterday.

 

The one thing that I realized , why my wife strayed is pretty simple. She was duped. Pure and simple. The OM preyed on what my wife was telling him was missing in our marriage, and he took advantage of it. She told him that I didnt compliment her enough, he in turn made it a point of doing this to her, she said it made her feel "special". She told him that I never wanted to take her out to dinner, he responded in kind. She told him about a weekend that we spent together at a bed and breakfast, an experience that I didnt particulary enjoy, they spent two nites together doing this. Knowing all of this doesnt make things any easier for me, I can tell you that. It makes me realize how shallow and immature of a person my wife has become, to be honest.

 

Flea, this sounds alot like mine. She sees it all so clearly now. She hates him for that now. She was manipulated so subtly.....

 

I never neglected my wife, nor failed to compliment, thank, or notice her. She became desensitized to my notice. She simply didn't take it to heart anymore. It was exciting to be noticed by another man. That is what took her down that path.

 

None of us deserved what our spouses did to us. From what you've described about how you feel right now, it sounds to me that you haven't yet really been able to forgive her. You're still holding on to the anger, and the blame. I don't know what to tell you to help you let that go, other than to hope that you understand that neither of you, nor your relationship, can really heal until that does happen. I'm not angry with my wife anymore...and what's done is done. As long as I can keep the knowledge that it won't happen again, then we're able to keep building. If I ever truly feel like it's going to happen again, THEN the stuff will hit the fan. I was totally unable to begin forgiving her in truth until I knew that she was willing to repair our marriage. Once I knew that this wasn't going to end our marriage, I was able to forgive her for what she'd done up to that point.

 

I sincerely wish I could do this Owl. I really do.

 

Her affair has created a chasm between us and our experiences. On the one hand is your philosophy; that she is back to me, and that marriage can continue. I am trying to accept and live by it. On the other is the fact that she took a long break from our marriage to explore her feelings and desires for another man. My years of love and devotion to her were not a consideration for her. I just don't know how to accept that. How do you accept that the tenets by which you based your life and your marriage were simply not as important to the one person whom you always trusted and felt implicitly would never hurt you?

 

Under my own moral beliefs there is no way to even the score, nor do I want to. (Bad choice of words, but at the moment I cannot articulate it any better.) It isn't about getting even, it's about reaching a place where the scales balance again. Her actions have changed the dynamic and the foundation of our relationship. Forever. To me it seems like I am expected to swallow a **** sandwich and be pleased to do it because she made it for me.

 

I am not the first man to have his wife cheat on him, nor will I be the last. (as evidenced by the fine folks on this board). I have allowed her affair to be the defining action of our marriage. This transgression is huge and damn hard to ignore. I am trying to focus on the now. I am trying to see the good in her again. Can or will I ever truly forgive? I don't know. All I can do is continue trying.

 

I had to cancel my first IC app't due to emergency business travel this week, but have rescheduled for this week. We shall see what happens.

 

-Dazed

[whichwayisup]

D, Time is on your side. You don't have to just 'get over it and forgive her fully' because of pressure. The IC is going to help so much.

 

I'm at a loss for words today, don't know why - But I wanted to acknowledge your post. Welcome back.

[emptyinside]

It took me quite some time to read through all of this thread. I did skip a little here and there but felt it was important to take in as much as possible.

I'm feeling quite vulnerable at this point so please keep that in mind as you reply to my post. I'm open to honesty or any feedback you feel you want to give.

 

I am married 17 years. Was married quite young. Early on in marriage wanted to divorce husband..ended up staying. At the time my husband started attending church quite regularly and people were praying for us and those that reached out to me basically made me feel that if I left I would go to hell. So I stayed. We've had a pretty decent marriage but I've never felt connected to him emotionally or intimately. I love him and always have but am not in love with him like a wife should be. This has left me feeling very vulnerable and desirous of an emotional and intimate connection with someone.

 

Eight months ago I met and fell in love with the most incredible man. In fact to hear the way dazed describes himself this man is all of that. Loving, attentinve, affectionate, funny, caring, passionate...and on I could go. Our relationship has been intense in every area. I won't go to much more detail right now because I should get to the reason I'm here. He is also married. 18 years. Try and hold back your judgement because he is also a pastor. I am open to going in to more detail about that at some point if necessary.

 

At this point we are trying to end our relationship. I wanted to leave my marriage to be with him. I know that he loves me and if he felt he could live with himself he would probably want the same. However the stakes are just too high. Yes, we should of thought of all of this from the beginning but an affair is selfish and at the time the only focus you have is you and what makes you feel good.

 

My posting here is to look for some encouragement from others to stay out of this relationship. It is very hard because I don't have the complete freedom to never speak to or see him and my heart is still very locked up with him and him with me. We both have someone we've confessed what we've done to but it's just not enough for me. I can't go anywhere else here where I'm at so I'm coming to this site if nothing more than to just be able to talk about it.

Thank you for listening,

empty

[sylviaguardian]

Dazed,

 

I am really sorry that you feel back at square one. I know that feeling only too well... But let's take another view on this. When you were away you were scared that your wife would do something else. She didn't - she spent the time reading your stuff and thinking. She decided to come clean on everything. These are the actions of someone who is making an effort.

 

Now, I now that knowing each new detail hurts but isn't it better at some point to realise that you know the details and there is nothing else to pull the rug out from under your feet? Once you know everything, THEN you can move on. It's still early days for you, you need time. Give yourself time. It's OK to feel angry or distant or disgusted. You will feel all of these over and over again before things start to get better.

 

 

Forgetting is not an option; forgiving will happen when she finally realizes what she's done. Perhaps I am oversensitive and really should just get past it. What the hell! Our conversations regarding the affair go like so.... I bring it up....she cries....I get numb....she cries smore because I seem so cold....I tell her it is to protect myself....she cries because I have to protect myself, etc.

 

Forgetting will never happen but you can start to forgive your wife. Forgiving is not about forgetting or condoning the affair - it is a gift that you give to yourself (not your wife) where you let go of the anger you feel because of what she did to you. You accept your pain and grieve but let go of the need to hurt her or seek revenge because you realise that she did not do this to hurt you. She did it because she was stupid, selfish, alone whatever but not because she WANTED to hurt you.

You will never get your wife to understand how much pain she has caused you, because it is YOUR pain and neither will there be a payback. It's about accepting that and letting go of the anger that is eating you up inside.

Sylvia

[sylviaguardian]

I just wanted to post a general post about anger. Dazed, Fleafly and others, I can relate to what you say about the uncontrollable anger about the 'details'. I have struggled with this too. Only last week when we were in the car I started feeling sick thinking about what the two of them were doing in the car. I am getting over it slowly, I am not sure how but I will try to share some of my thoughts. One thing is that I got to a point where everytime I thought about what they did or if we talked about it, I would become uncontrollably angry. I started to realise that this was completely pointless behaviour. I was driving me crazy and it didn't change anything. What happened, happened. We don't like it and chances are that are spouses are ashamed of their behaviour in the cold light of day but nobody can change what happened.

 

The second thing I did is to try to put it into context. It is not surprising that people do sexual things when they get caught up in 'feelings' for someone. That is simply what people do. The chances are that it was not that great anyway. I am sure that all of us here, if we are honest have had a relationship (however short) with a person that was based on vanity or ego and sex often follows as a result, oftne not because of the amazing pull that the other person offers, but because of the way we feel about ourselves (i.e. we feel good, powerfull, wanted etc).

 

The important thing is to give it time and while you are giving it time, not to spend all your time attacking the person who hurt you. Let your self experience the pain, after all you have been through a trauma but don't expect your spouse to be able to feel the depth of your pain.

 

I have found that if necessary, I can 'block' those feelings about the sex stuff when they pop into my head. After all, I don't obssess about what kind of sex he had with his grilfriends before me, or what positions they did it in etc. This kind of rumination is pointless.

 

Dazed, I don't think you are the kind of person who can't let go. It's only now that you are finding out all the details. We can only move on when we know the truth. Don't be hard on yourself. I found out about my H's involvement with this person over 9 months ago but the fact that he only told me 4 weeks ago that it was sexual, means that all the progress over the last 9 months was wiped out. I am back at square one but dealing with it.

 

Dazed, it sounds like your wife has finally realised that she owes you the truth which is a very positive move on her part. Don't think of it as square one, but as progress from her.

 

Fleafly, I don't know what to say. I read a lot of your posts and how angry you still are but I always got the impression that you had made a decision to leave your wife and that was that. Now I see a lot of doubt in your posts. Are you hanging on to the anger as a way of trying to hurt her? I agree that sometimes people need a break but when you are apart and dwelling on the bad stuff, you are also missing the positive stuff that can balance things out a bit more. Could you meet with your wife and chat on neutral ground?

 

Syl

[fleafly]

Sylvia, I do not/am not holding on to anger to hurt my wife, the honest truth is I CANNOT let go of it. It consumes me. Its been three months since I found out about it, and it seems like yesterday. Its kind of hard to explain I guess, its just a part of me, a part I cannot stand, a part I wish I could erase, but I know I cannot. And I will be honest when I say that while I appreciate everything everyone has told me, Dazed is the one I most relate to in here, and it scares the hell out of me to see what he is going thru almost a year after his discovery. He made such strides with his situation, I was kind of holding out the hope that his story would end happily ever after, and it kills me to see what he is now going through.

 

Second, the time I wanted alone was meant more for reflection on my life, where is has went(to ****). and where is it going(wish I knew). Alot of people in here jumped on me for wanting to see other people, my purpose was to see if going back to my wife and trying to pick up the pieces whould be not only worthwhile, but what I WANTED. Seeing Dazed situation and where it is now, I am thinking this might have been the right choice. Must people dont see this side of things, thinking that the only way to go is to try and pick up the pieces of their shattered life and somehow try and repair their situation, all the while having this twisted feelings inside of them, with a daily reminder sleeping next to them every night. Sleeping like a baby, that is. She also believes that the pain she has caused me is equal to the pain I have caused her by moving out?!?

 

Third, meeting with my wife has become almost impossible at this point. She has lost control. she was never willing to give me my space. It was all or nothing for her. She refused to accept responsibilty for her actions, only blaming me for leaving instead of focusing on the CAUSE of my leaving. to her its like I just woke up one day,packed my **** and left. She is now getting phsyical with me. the last time I was at the house, she chased me around my car with a frying pan, smashed a window out of my car, tried to hit me with a candlestick, punched me in the face, when I pushed her away from me, she called 911. She wants to punish me for leaving her. On a good note(!) she is now in therapy and taking her medications, hopefully this helps. I will pull my thread back up and update it, I really dont want to pollute his thread with my garbage!

 

Dazed, I truely hope everything is well with you, myself and alot of others are pulling for you!

[DazednConfused]

Wow. Thank you Syl. Flea.

 

I apologize for the long time no see, but I literally unplugged from everything over the last couple of weeks. I have popped in on occasion, but haven't had the energy to bother.

 

Syl, it's not at all about the details anymore. It's about faith and trust and effort. One would think that after ten months of "trying" and "honesty" that there would be no more bombshells. It isn't about the details at all. (outside of the fct that it takes away yet one more thing that was only mine) It's about constantly being reminded what a fool I've been to think it was all in the open. I was a fool to believe her lies during the affair. And she keeps making me look and feel foolish for believing. I can handle anything except the obstacles I cannot see. I can say it til I'm blue in the face, why the hell can't she get it??! She is more interested in minimizing than making being fair. That sucks.

 

And yet the fool is still frickin here.

 

 

 

The important thing is to give it time and while you are giving it time, not to spend all your time attacking the person who hurt you.

 

Agreed. I do not ever attack my wife. it is not in my nature. Even when I am raging inside she gets only the very tip of the iceberg. I have very right to be pissed off, and by god, I will let myself be pissed off. Is it productive? No. Is it necesary? Yes.

 

I need to wax philosophical for a moment here, and I truly hope NOT to offend anyone.

 

I think the amount of hurt one feels in being betrayed is directly proportionate to the devotion one had in the marriage. I have made no secret of the love and the high regard I have had for my wife over the years. this is not by definition co-depency (though some of it matches); it is most simply pure love and affection. For sixteen years, I saw the most beautiful woman in the world wake up next to me every day. For sixteen years, she was the focal point of my existence, she was everything. She was truly the very best thing in my world, and I looked forward to seeing her and spending time with her each and every day. I slowly let all my friends go, never got close with any colleagues, etc. Not because I didn't want to have friends, but because i focused so much of my being in this marriage and my wife that there simply was no room for others. She never asked me to do any of these things. She never tried to control or curtail my comings and goings. I was always just happier to spend my time with her, and her with me, so that's how things were. We were the best.

 

Fast forward a couple of years. (one of which during her affair, the other in trying to recover)

 

I've lost my anchor. She's lost her self-respect. She hates and despises what she's done. She hates herself for having done it. She hates that she has driven me into this funk that has caused me to pull away. I know she is paying a price. I feel terrible for that because I do love her, and I don't enjoy seeing her hurt. She has nearly lost me and she knows it. the trouble is, neither of us, nor my therapist know how to bring me back.

 

I am still here, hanging on for dear life because I still want to raise my daughter in a two-parent home. I have focused a bit more on her, but am still giving her space to grow up. At this point in her life and development the last thing she needs is a clingy, self-indulgent father.

 

For myself and all the other betrayed spouses out there, there are some very simple truths that we can know for certain.

 

We know they had an affair.

 

We know they kissed passionately, took all that their senses could take in, flavors, textures, etc. Most exchanged bodily fluids willingly.

 

Most went back for more, weeks, months, some even for years.

 

We all will have those wonderfully vivid images whenever we close our eyes for more than a couple of seconds.

 

We know they went out of their way to create memorable experiences for themselves, and then happily lied to us about their whereabouts. Poor wayward spouses, they had to suffer with making up all those perfect lies while we were at home looking after all those mundane things like finances, children, bills, etc.

 

They intentionally spent extra time and money on themselves to lookgood, smell good, wear that perfect outfit; all for the benefit of their chosen fling.

 

Deep in our broken hearts we know that we were happily cast aside in favor of another. This other seemingly took precedence and surpassed our abilities, our love, touch, our words, our history, our success, everything.

 

We know that they callously and purposely did what each of us fears most in our relationships.

 

How dare she do this to us!?? I misspoke in the title of this thread. There was no mistake.

 

Hmmmm let's take a look. A mistake is transposing a number on your taxes. A mistake is not noticing the stop sign and hitting another car. A mistake is making two appointments for the same day and time.

Carrying on a year long emotional and physical affair in which she lied repeatedly, gaslighted me, and neglected our daughter is not a mistake. It's pre-meditated, self justified total disregard for anyone, selfishness of the highest order and complete disrespect and disregard for anyone else!

 

So when the truth comes out..."Golly gee whiz, I am sooooooo sorry"

 

That makes it all better doesn't it?

 

With or without details, all of the above in one form or another is the real truth.

 

I have been told that I hide my hurt behind my anger. Yep that's true. I have been told that I have not been able to really show my wife how much she hurt me. Also true. But if she knew the pain she has given me (I mean the whole reality) she would not be strong enough to handle it. It would kill her to know. It would change her forever. I cannot do that to her.

 

So I still simply suck it up like a man.

 

So to sum up, I am still here, I am still trying. Obviously there are glimmers of hope and some good days so don't give up on us yet. The fat lady hasn't sung.

 

Thanks for reading this whole disjointed post, and allowing me to rant a little. It does feel good to get some of it off my chest.

 

-Dazed

[jmargel]

Dazed it seems this is becoming more of a 'you' problem than a 'we' problem. You are having problems letting things go and until you let go of that anger, resentment and feeling of betrayal only then can you move onto to start to trust your wife again.

 

What will it take to make you happy again? What will it take for you and your wife to live in a life of love and trust? That's something you have to answer yourself and set goals to reach that. Unless you do that this OM will win, he will have taken everything you two have. Is this what you truly want? I'm not saying to 'suck it up' I'm saying to accept this anger, deal with it, then let it go. FOREVER. When you start feeling like you are going back to the anger stage stop yourself and ask yourself what are you really risking by doing this? How much punishment do you want to bestowl on yourself and your wife? Instead of this feeling of anger, defeat it with the feeling of love. It may be hard to do it at first but it will eventually conquer that feeling.