Our relationship is special - he will leave his wife....

[MissBee]

And I politely decline this invitation to lay myself out there like this for your thoughtful examination at this time.

 

But of course....

 

Anywho, maybe there are others who feel as you do who will be generous to offer up fruitful discussion, versus laying out phantom concepts with cryptic explanations then accuse people of simply not getting this thing they never explained.

[SBC]

Help him grow and gain clarity = fix IMO.

 

IMO= In Your Opinion

 

...and you are welcome to it.

 

 

but look out, because if you think your man (and yourself for that matter) is in no need of growth and additional clarity, and you are unwilling to provide that for each other because you feel doing so would be making excuses and settling, you are in for some rough times ahead.

[MissBee]

and your age is? you did say we could all compare ages, and afterall, I gave up mine.

 

It only matters in reference to us discussing this topic, which you've already stated you would not lay yourself out there for my "thoughtful examination". That being said...I wasn't comparing ages for the fun of it, but only in so far as a fruitful discussion was to be had.

[SBC]

It only matters in reference to us discussing this topic, which you've already stated you would not lay yourself out there for my "thoughtful examination". That being said...I wasn't comparing ages for the fun of it, but only in so far as a fruitful discussion was to be had.

 

haha! I figured

[donnamaybe]

IMO= In Your Opinion

 

...and you are welcome to it.

 

 

but look out, because if you think your man (and yourself for that matter) is in no need of growth and additional clarity, and you are unwilling to provide that for each other because you feel doing so would be making excuses and settling, you are in for some rough times ahead.

 

We already deal honestly with people. We don't need any "growth or clarity" in that regard.

 

Now talking out issues? Of course we do that, and successfully since we are already "grown and clarified." Folks who still need "growth and clarity" might lie in their conversations or be thinking of what they want to say next while they should be actually hearing what their partner has to say.

[SBC]

We already deal honestly with people. We don't need any "growth or clarity" in that regard.

 

... since we are already "grown and clarified."

 

Obviously donna, you have no problems.

Edited February 19, 2012 by SBC

[SBC]

So a man who is cheating and lying to his wife, is growing and getting clarity and is in a beautiful process?

 

It did not start out that way, certainly not. but as our relationship has developed, we have both come to understand the roots of our actions and behaviors --some good, some not so good.

 

and we (especially he) are starting to see that the ways of behaving/coping used in the past will not, and should not, work going forward.

 

So yes, it is a beautiful process.

[donnamaybe]

So a man who is cheating and lying to his wife, is growing and getting clarity and is in a beautiful process?

 

Confusing innit?

 

After having been around the block as you and I have, would you ever want to feel you needed to help a man "grow and gain clarity" by the time he is in his 50's?

[MissBee]

So a man who is cheating and lying to his wife, is growing and getting clarity and is in a beautiful process?

 

Look SBC will slip and slide and refuse to engage you in any meaningful explanation of how that is possible. I understand how one can feel like people are being insincere about this, but even when you try to show that you're actually interested in understanding, she refuses. Besides from the meaningless snarky remark and accusation that your age or some other thing is wrong why you don't automatically get it, she won't actually expound upon this concept. Soooo goodluck to you

 

People seem to hate assumptions, yet when someone refuses to make themselves and their position clear, and takes great measures to obfuscate the issue, then we're better off coming to our own conclusion about a) why they choose not to explain themselves and b)the original assertion that led to the query.

[SBC]

Confusing innit?

 

After having been around the block as you and I have, would you ever want to feel you needed to help a man "grow and gain clarity" by the time he is in his 50's?

 

maybe you will be one of the lucky ones donna, and life will never give you your comeuppance. you can only hope.

 

but if you are as perfectly grown and clear as you claim, you should be grateful that you were given the right guidance throughout your life to get there, as opposed to being so self righteously arrogant in the face of others who have not.

[SBC]

You know, there was a time when I didn't understand Donna, but I do now. She is a woman, who has made her own bad choices in life, but yet she is a woman who sought better for herself, and became better and became a woman who will not accept a man treating her badly. She is not arrogant.....she just is sure of herself and what she stands for. I say..........more women ought to be like Donna!

 

I think you and I have a different dictionary. Confidences is one thing, arrogance is another.

[SBC]

Anyway, ladies, thank you for the discourse, but I have a mountain of laundry that needs attendance.

 

Good day all

[donnamaybe]

OH HELL NO!

 

I've had too many hard knocks, too much pain to put myself in that position again. I'm also........a whole lot of wiser now.

 

I can not fix anyone or help them, they can not fix me, nor help me fix myself. Sucks........wish it wasn't true, but it is! No processes for me, well except my own path to being who I want to be.

Right on LG! Look inward, realize past screw ups, and learn from them and do your own growing! And realizing these things don't suck at all! Realizing them means you have already done a lot of growing!

[donnamaybe]

I think you and I have a different dictionary. Confidences is one thing, arrogance is another.

 

Keep growing and gaining clarity and you too will be able to discern the difference between the two.

[SBC]

Keep growing and gaining clarity and you too will be able to discern the difference between the two.

 

ooh, low blow donna. how nice of you to wait until I had left. oh well, that's ok, i reported it

 

ciao!

[MissBee]

OH HELL NO!

 

I've had too many hard knocks, too much pain to put myself in that position again. I'm also........a whole lot of wiser now.

 

I can not fix anyone or help them, they can not fix me, nor help me fix myself. Sucks........wish it wasn't true, but it is! No processes for me, well except my own path to being who I want to be.

 

Isn't this the truth.

 

It is interesting though, how does one measure their growth. I really did wish SBC would have answered or fueled the discussion of the matter at hand. Because I understand growing, but I have learned that when you're growing in the privacy of your own head space or a secret affair or any insular environment...you can't really see how much you've grown, less you expose yourself to the wider world.

 

You're starting to date again, that is how you're seeing your own growth. You can read all the books and forums and have the ideas, but unless you put yourself out there and date and experience stimuli outside of yourself, you can't really tell. Anyone who has broken NC, especially inadvertently, can see their growth. Sometimes in the privacy of not speaking to your ex and avoiding them for months you can feel as though you're over it but sometimes it's not til they send you a message or you see them that you see your TRUE growth. One of my spiritual teachers discusses how everyone can feel enlightened and spiritual atop a mountain meditating, but that's not a true test. It's not until you are among other people and their behaviors, thoughts and observations that you see how far you have come. Heck, even with tests, whether school exams, a driving test, any kind of test that exhibits growth is not administered by you, but someone outside of you observing you.

 

With that said...I wonder how one assesses their growth within an A. Well first, what specific areas are they trying to grow in. Should their BS, their kids, their family etc be able to see this growth as well or does it only exist within the world of the APs and how they as an insular unit think of themselves? I don't know what SBC meant really....but I would be suspicious of the latter. Is the growth a secret growth only for them or that benefits the matters of the A or does it benefit the actual individuals? And isn't any sustainable growth able to be sustained without needing your A partner? When you learn how to drive or ride a bike, you start with someone to hold your hand and coach you, but when YOU have truly learned, it becomes inborn and takes a life of its own and becomes honed and improved outside of your initial teacher. What happens when the A finishes teaching? Do the APs separate? Or can they ONLY grow in the A with each other? How does one exercise one's A lessons in the wider world? I don't know....

Edited February 19, 2012 by MissBee

[alexandria35]

Okay I'll start by stating my age, which is 46 yrs. Apparently age means something around here, but I don't think it does. There are some younger posters here who are amazingly mature and there are some older posters who are amazingly immature. MissB is incredibly wise for her years and I only wish I had been more like her 20 years ago.

 

That being said, I have grown, matured and changed over the years. These changes would make it almost impossible for me to have a relationship with a MM now. No that would have been something I would have been much more likely to do in my late teens or early twenties. At that age I was selfish and self absorbed. If something made me happy or made one of my family or friends happy then thats all that mattered to me, I didn't care if it was morally or ethically wrong. I didn't care about anyone outside of my immediate circle and I certainly wouldn't have put the well being of someone else over my own.

 

Back in those days I was also dumb and didn't know what was good for me so while I was all about making myself happy I didn't know what I truly needed to be happy. So I didn't set my standards very high or think too deeply when it came to chosing men for myself. While I certainly didn't like being lied to, I would overlook lying and deceit involving other people I didn't know or care about. Hey what's it matter to me? So long as I'm not being hurt than who cares. I was willing to turn a blind eye to a lot of unfavorable characteristics about the men I loved, believing that deep down they were decent even if their actions said otherwise. Meanwhile I was too stupid to know how my choices were robbing me of my own character and spiritual well being.

 

Now as I head towards being 50 yrs old I am much more self aware and less self focused. I do care about the effect my actions have on others even it those people are unknown to me. If my dog ****s on someone elses lawn I pick it up, even if I'm in an area where nobody knows me and nobody saw my dog do it. I'm much more about living my life for the greater good instead of just the good of myself. At this age I have no secrets, I live my life openly and authentically. There is nothing I'm doing that would surprise anyone because I'm a 'what you see is what you get' kind of person. Now if I were to become involved with a MM I think it would drag me down and set my own growth back, because it would be much more likely that I would be dragged down to the MM's level of immaturity and selfcentredness rather than the MM raising to my level. I have lived and been hurt and made bad choices. There is no way in hell I would compromise myself now for a man and certainly not a married man.

 

There is also no way I would let my family see that either. As a mother of grown boys and a grandmother, what my family sees me do and say is of utmost importance to me and being with a married man would certainly alter their opinion of me. Oh they would still love me and like me but there would be a change. They know I'm not perfect and they don't expect that of me, but they do see me as someone honest and decent. I preached honesty to my boys all their lives and I wouldn't have the nerve or audacity to look them in their faces now and tell them I have decided to carry on an affair. Nor could I imagine trying to tell them that my affair is actually a good thing because in helping my MM deceive his wife I'm actually helping him become a more honest and authentic person. Once they got over laughing at that I'm pretty sure they would be disgusted.

[MissBee]

Okay I'll start by stating my age, which is 46 yrs. Apparently age means something around here, but I don't think it does. There are some younger posters here who are amazingly mature and there are some older posters who are amazingly immature. MissB is incredibly wise for her years and I only wish I had been more like her 20 years ago.

 

That being said, I have grown, matured and changed over the years. These changes would make it almost impossible for me to have a relationship with a MM now. No that would have been something I would have been much more likely to do in my late teens or early twenties. At that age I was selfish and self absorbed. If something made me happy or made one of my family or friends happy then thats all that mattered to me, I didn't care if it was morally or ethically wrong. I didn't care about anyone outside of my immediate circle and I certainly wouldn't have put the well being of someone else over my own.

 

Back in those days I was also dumb and didn't know what was good for me so while I was all about making myself happy I didn't know what I truly needed to be happy. So I didn't set my standards very high or think too deeply when it came to chosing men for myself. While I certainly didn't like being lied to, I would overlook lying and deceit involving other people I didn't know or care about. Hey what's it matter to me? So long as I'm not being hurt than who cares. I was willing to turn a blind eye to a lot of unfavorable characteristics about the men I loved, believing that deep down they were decent even if their actions said otherwise. Meanwhile I was too stupid to know how my choices were robbing me of my own character and spiritual well being.

 

Now as I head towards being 50 yrs old I am much more self aware and less self focused. I do care about the effect my actions have on others even it those people are unknown to me. If my dog ****s on someone elses lawn I pick it up, even if I'm in an area where nobody knows me and nobody saw my dog do it. I'm much more about living my life for the greater good instead of just the good of myself. At this age I have no secrets, I live my life openly and authentically. There is nothing I'm doing that would surprise anyone because I'm a 'what you see is what you get' kind of person. Now if I were to become involved with a MM I think it would drag me down and set my own growth back, because it would be much more likely that I would be dragged down to the MM's level of immaturity and selfcentredness rather than the MM raising to my level. I have lived and been hurt and made bad choices. There is no way in hell I would compromise myself now for a man and certainly not a married man.

 

There is also no way I would let my family see that either. As a mother of grown boys and a grandmother, what my family sees me do and say is of utmost importance to me and being with a married man would certainly alter their opinion of me. Oh they would still love me and like me but there would be a change. They know I'm not perfect and they don't expect that of me, but they do see me as someone honest and decent. I preached honesty to my boys all their lives and I wouldn't have the nerve or audacity to look them in their faces now and tell them I have decided to carry on an affair. Nor could I imagine trying to tell them that my affair is actually a good thing because in helping my MM deceive his wife I'm actually helping him become a more honest and authentic person. Once they got over laughing at that I'm pretty sure they would be disgusted.

 

I laughed out loud at this too...I can imagine you saying that and your kids thinking you had surely lost your mind.

 

This is a beautiful post that resonates with me, there is so much I want to respond to. Also, thank you for your kind words.

 

I admit, I am proud of myself every single day and confident that as I grow I will mature into an even more phenomenal woman. I have realized that once you set out on a journey of self improvement it is very difficult to go back to your old ways. Each time I raise my consciousness, my former behaviors and attitudes become obsolete and foreign to me....and each step is a step up, never a step back to old ways. Growth is certainly not linear; however, in my experience growth always involves improvement and even greater awareness of self and others and one's relationship to the wider world. Therefore, it is an upwards and onward process and I'm glad that I have started now and can build on that versus living my life in complete darkness then awakening when it's almost over...or not at all. My parents, bless their hearts, are fumbling around doing foolishness and asking ME for advice and that made me even more happy that I am on the journey I'm on, as I know my kids won't have to go through that, as I think a bulk of my self-discovery, growth and self-awareness would have been already accomplished before I attempt to raise little ones.

 

Spiritually, I believe we're all on different levels and some people are born as old souls and some have younger souls. I think I am an old soul and can't attribute that to anything I did or didn't do...but what is. I also grew to realize that there is physical wisdom that comes from experience and living on earth for a while....then a spiritual wisdom and intuition that comes from your soul level...and your age cannot dictate this. Heck whether or not you are a Christian, if you take the example of Jesus or for that matter, most spiritual leaders, they always exhibited a wisdom beyond their years and at around 30 came to a fullness in that and were responsible for teaching their elders. We all can learn from each other and your teacher can be a baby, a teenager. an old man, a janitor, a doctor or panhandler. The Universe is funny like that, it is no respecter of age or status.

 

As for someone bringing me down....that resonated with me so much. It is easier actually for you to be pulled down to a lower level than it is for you to raise yourself up. I am therefore so careful about the people I keep around me and the more I paid attention to that, the more certain people and situations would physically repel me. I just had to break ties with a girl who was not good for me and where I need to be in life as a person as well as professionally.

 

On both a regular rational level and just on an intuitive gut level, I don't see how being involved in an affair helps the parties become better people. I am always open to hearing perspectives I never thought of before, as I don't believe I know everything....but since that has not been offered up in any concrete terms, I will continue to believe that it is very difficult to engage in an A as a way to become a better person. Or in any case, I think at some point during this venture, as you truly become a better person, if the A was somehow necessary at the time, it seems to me that you'd grow towards a level where you did not, or rather, cannot continue it anymore. But to be involved in an A for years on end where you are supposedly growing and being better the entire time....well that strikes me as far-fetched.

Edited February 19, 2012 by MissBee

[alexandria35]

I laughed out loud at this too...I can imagine you saying that and your kids thinking you had surely lost your mind.

Lol...reminds me of my mom who has always been a bit flakey. When she was in her early 50's she made some decisions and did some things that were just plain nuts. We thought she had gone bat**** crazy. A few years later she calmed down and blamed it all on menopause. So if I start sleeping with a MM I'm gonna blame it on being in that time of my life..lol.

 

This is a beautiful post that resonates with me, there is so much I want to respond to. Also, thank you for your kind words.

 

I admit, I am proud of myself every single day and confident that as I grow I will mature into an even more phenomenal woman. I have realized that once you set out on a journey of self improvement it is very difficult to go back to your old ways. Each time I raise my consciousness, my former behaviors and attitudes become obsolete and foreign to me....and each step is a step up, never a step back to old ways. Growth is certainly not linear; however, in my experience growth always involves improvement and even greater awareness of self and others and one's relationship to the wider world. Therefore, it is an upwards and onward process and I'm glad that I have started now and can build on that versus living my life in complete darkness then awakening when it's almost over...or not at all. My parents, bless their hearts, are fumbling around doing foolishness and asking ME for advice and that made me even more happy that I am on the journey I'm on, as I know my kids won't have to go through that, as I think a bulk of my self-discovery, growth and self-awareness would have been already accomplished before I attempt to raise little ones.

Yes..it is very difficult to move backwards. Once you learn something you can't unlearn it. Once you know something you can't not know it. If one had made progress in their life and then knowingly chooses to go back to old or bad behaviours, it is even more damaging than when one engaged in those behaviours simply because one didn't know better. It would require deliberately choosing to not be true to yourself.

 

Spiritually, I believe we're all on different levels and some people are born as old souls and some have younger souls. I think I am an old soul and can't attribute that to anything I did or didn't do...but what is. I also grew to realize that there is physical wisdom that comes from experience and living on earth for a while....then a spiritual wisdom and intuition that comes from your soul level...and your age cannot dictate this. Heck whether or not you are a Christian, if you take the example of Jesus or for that matter, most spiritual leaders, they always exhibited a wisdom beyond their years and at around 30 came to a fullness in that and were responsible for teaching their elders. We all can learn from each other and your teacher can be a baby, a teenager. an old man, a janitor, a doctor or panhandler. The Universe is funny like that, it is no respecter of age or status.

Beautifully put. Funny because I have thought of you as an old soul when reading some of your posts. You are so much more enlightened than I was at your age.

 

As for someone bringing me down....that resonated with me so much. It is easier actually for you to be pulled down to a lower level than it is for you to raise yourself up. I am therefore so careful about the people I keep around me and the more I paid attention to that, the more certain people and situations would physically repel me. I just had to break ties with a girl who was not good for me and where I need to be in life as a person as well as professionally.

Yes. The healthier we beome the less time we have to waste on toxic unhealthy people. Sounds so cliche to write that out, but it's cliche because it has truth to it. At almost 50 years of age why would I want to hang around with some MM who doesn't know himself and hasn't matured?

 

On both a regular rational level and just on an intuitive gut level, I don't see how being involved in an affair helps the parties become better people. I am always open to hearing perspectives I never thought of before, as I don't believe I know everything....but since that has not been offered up in any concrete terms, I will continue to believe that it is very difficult to engage in an A as a way to become a better person. Or in any case, I think at some point during this venture, as you truly become a better person, if the A was somehow necessary at the time, it seems to me that you'd grow towards a level where you did not, or rather, cannot continue it anymore. But to be involved in an A for years on end where you are supposedly growing and being better the entire time....well that strikes me as far-fetched.

 

Yep...I also wish the poster who said that would explain it. He's becoming a better person how? Helping him be dishonest is helping him become honest? So if I knew someone on drugs, I should do drugs with them to help them see why they should stop doing drugs. I suspect she meant that she has witnessed him broaden his horizons, try new things, learn new things, etc...which has nothing to do with becoming a better person or becoming authentic and honest. Yes learning and experiencing new things can make more fullfilled and well rounded individuals but that has nothing to do with cheating. I can have a million new experiences without having to lie and cheat.

[PhoenixRise]

ooh, low blow donna. how nice of you to wait until I had left. oh well, that's ok, i reported it

 

ciao!

 

 

And this, is the purpose of this whole conversation.

[SoMovinOn]

Confusing innit?

 

After having been around the block as you and I have, would you ever want to feel you needed to help a man "grow and gain clarity" by the time he is in his 50's?

 

Nothing confusing about the concept of life being a continuous journey of growth and learning.

 

"Only a fool knows everything. A wise man knows how little he knows."

 

"Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death."

- Albert Einstein

 

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

- Albert Einstein

 

"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday."

- Abraham Lincoln

 

"Whoever ceases to be a student has never been a student."

- George Iles

 

"The wisest mind has something yet to learn."

- George Santayana

[donnamaybe]

It isn't growth in and of itself. It is the notion that a grown man in his 50's needs a woman to help him grow or that anyone would want to take on the fixing of a person who should be fixing himself.

[Angelina527]

Sorry to hear your relationship did not work out and that you were misled into believing otherwise. I'm also in a long term EMR, 6+ yrs. MM was clear from day 1 that he wasn't going to leave his BS. What we have works for us and I wouldn't expect anyone to understand.

 

Does it work for his wife, as well?

[Angelina527]

As much as some of you wish it to be, not every affair is a situation based solely on sneaking, lying and wild hanging-from-the-chandelier sex. Sometimes two people really care about each other and they work together to help each other become better people.

 

Is his wife aware of how you "work together?" If she's aware that her husband has another woman helping him to become a better person, then great! If not, then yes, your affair is a situation based on sneaking and lying.

[Angelina527]

If my dog ****s on someone elses lawn I pick it up, even if I'm in an area where nobody knows me and nobody saw my dog do it.

 

 

I LOVE this! An affair is essentially an OW sh***ing in the BW's yard and leaving the mess for the wife to clean up.