Question Regarding Trust

[Ingenue 2]

Dear OW,

 

Would you trust "your" MM if he divorced his wife, and in part, you know it was because of his desire to be solely yours?

 

We are in NC now. I told BS about the SA in MT. She would have had me in the home that evening, but the therapist and I both knew that was not healthy.

 

My BS is a wonderful woman in many ways, second marriage for both of us, and the reality is that I was low enough on the priority list for about three and a half years that I emotionally withdrew to where it would not hurt no matter where I wound up in the priority list, but conversely, nothing she can do now stirs delight or happiness in me.

 

My AP (whom I knew about 18 months before we began the SA) is, instead, THE person I did not know existed and thought I would never meet. Yet she has said I need to try to work things out with my BS, and only if my BS is really unable or unwilling to work it out, should I divorce and we be together.

 

That's a tall order. I don't know how many of us have entirely pure motives. I have a comfortable, comforting marriage and routine. My AP has nothing to offer materially at this time (not currently employable), but her heart, her mind, her prioirities (as reflected by what she does) all scream at me.

 

So we are in true NC. I am separated. And I want to know if some of the OW here would be able to trust such a man. Our A began sometime after she made a comment, in passing, that "If you were single I would marry you tomorrow." Mind you, we had never held one another other than heartfelt hugs at that point; that was several months before the start of the A. I had already told her what I saw: That a man would be fortunate/blessed to wake up to her each day and dedicate himself to her, and frankly, she was relying on me to vet the men around her.

 

Thank you in advance.

[MissBee]

Hey ingenue,

 

What is SA?

 

My honest reaction to your story is to say:

 

I feel like you did not have an affair because your marriage was over necessarily, but as a response to not being a priority you withdrew yourself. There is NO guarantee that your current OW will not eventually do this to you. I don't know all the details, but the point is, I do believe sometimes it is not a particular relationship that is the problem, but our ways of relating and being in a relationship, so no matter who it is, it will be the same thing. Was it your wife's fault solely? Or do you not communicate? As soon as you feel alienated a bit do you automatically go inside yourself?

 

You're discussing your OW in an idealized way...don't know what you thought of your wife before this, but if you ever did love and romance her...please remember that no matter the woman, all relationships eventually stop being so romantic. So perhaps the OW seems rosy now because she is not the wife you live with who can get to a point of ignoring you....but what will happen if you are hers for real? When one is escaping a marriage, one's outlook can be very different from when you are a single person dating honestly. Single people are by no means perfect and still get into dubious relationships but I think when one is specifically avoiding one's marriage, it can surely make the A and the OW seem like paradise, just like when single people are on the rebound, their rebound relationship is usually a whirlwind and seems so amazing, until reality sets in and often times, the rebound could have been anybody and often they don't even like this person that much and it was all due to them running from their pain why they projected all these wonderful qualities on to this new person.

 

I think she is right in suggesting you try to work on things before trying to be with her. She's smart. If your marriage is salvageable, try to salvage it, as sometimes we think the grass is greener and then when we move over to the other side we realize it is the same grass and really, it's OUR CARE or lack of it that makes it become brown. If you have perfectly good grass that needs care at your house, it's better to work on that than trying to move houses IMO, and I think your OW is smart enough to know this and insist you do this versus run to her as the solution. Aside from being a low priority, what else is wrong with your marriage/wife?

 

As for if I'd trust a MM...I'm no longer an OW but for me personally I knew I could not trust him if he were to be with me, especially because he said nothing was wrong with his relationship, he just "loved" me too. That to me means that there is NO GOOD REASON for me to have believed he thought his behavior was wrong and that he wouldn't perform them again in the future.

Edited February 20, 2012 by MissBee

[TigerCub]

Trusting the MM depends on factor such as:

 

- Is he a serial cheater (ie. has he cheated on his BS many times before) or is this really just a first time thing, met the right person too late kinda scenario.

 

- Is the MM dragging things out and prolonging the time he's cheating on and lying to his wife?

 

- Is he really leaving the M to take a chance on this new love, or is he leaving the M because the BS is quitting him?

 

my xmm was a serial cheater, he dragged things out, and I left him - so no, I would never trust him (now that I see clearly) - actually even in the fantasy state, I knew that although I wanted a future with him, there was a part of me that knew I wouldn't be able to turn my back on the guy for a second, fearing that he would cheat - and that's no way to live.

 

Note: There are couples that get together after an affair, and go to counseling and find a way to make it work, but it depends on a lot of factors.

[whichwayisup]

I assume SA means sexual affair.

 

Your OW may be concerned how quickly you and your wife are separating and divorcing, she probably wants to know you chose to divorce reguardless if she was in the picture or not. Work on you, be alone and grieve the loss of your marriage, tie up loose ends and when you're in a better frame of mind and ready to begin a new relationship, then court your OW (though she wouldn't be the OW anymore) in the proper way and date her, start fresh and out in the open.

[18Years2Late]

Former OW here...

 

I agree with the other responses so far...

 

At one time I would have trusted my xMM completely...however bc of the mud slinging, bus accidents, flip flopping, drama, and lies since dday(s) I would not...I trust him to never cheat on me...I was only one...I don't know if "mistrust" is the right term for me...I just don't like what I have seen from him since dday(s)...

 

I can tell u from my experience that OW feel a lot of guilt when the MM wants to up a leave his M "for the OW"...if u didn't think it thru and try everything to fix the M, you would have regrets, resent the OW for "making" u leave the M, and as a result not b able to give yourself completely to a new R with the OW...and that's a heavy burden to bear for the OW...to wonder if one day she couldn't "be all that" that u thought she would b...I hope that makes since...

 

So far u have done the right thing...told your W and NC with OW...tell the OW u need 3 months without her to make a decision...W and M or OW...strict NC for 3 months...absolutely no flip flopping...and then u choose one or the other...that is if your W hasn't already made that choice for u...running to OW bc W kicked u out will not help your case (for me) as FC already mentioned...

 

Being a coward and a manipulative liar = not attractive.

 

Owning your shyte, growing a pair, Taking control of your life and making a decision bc that's what YOU want = very sexy.

 

Just saying...

[NoIDidn't]

I don't think this is a matter of trust, OP. I think this is a moment of clarity sneaking through the affair fog.

 

She is already cheating on a spouse to be with you. You are already separated from your spouse and so you could be together IF she divorces as well.

 

BUT

 

She said "if [she] was single", she would marry you.

 

I think, she is telling you, and you heard it clearly for the first time, that she is NOT single and has no plans at the moment of becoming single to make that a reality.

 

I hope you pay attention.

[Ingenue 2]

Thanks all for the replies.

 

Reading from the end to the top...I don't think there is ever a valid reason for a married person to have an affair. The one place I falter on that is if, among other things, one of the couple is no longer able to provide companionship, and I do not mean sexual companionship specifically, due to mental or physical illness, for example, and a divorce may be out of the question for issues of maintaining health care and insurance for that person. I just don't want to be too judgmental.

 

As for our marriage and its dynamics, I failed to continue to make reasonable needs known. I was the type of person who would bring something up and ask for a change, but if it wasn't validated/honored, might only bring it up once or twice again, and only under some duress, rather than persisting. That is my fault.

 

The MT has noted that when we wed there was some "power" imbalance, in that we were both divorced, but while I came in with no house but a very good income (and spousal support!), my wife did have a house, albeit she earned less than I did. We worked together well, and she was a rock in a long visitation dispute. I can't forget that.

 

At the same time as her work projects became more demanding, I picked up more and more of the slack, down to making sure someone was checking on the grades of my stepson, as she wasn't. I was already the cook (fortunately) and am the type who has done laundry and vacuumed/dusted since I was twelve. I was well-trained!

 

While my paycheck was direct-deposited, my name was put on the account (and I was only put on as a signatory) about six years into the marriage.

 

I polled about four of our friends, some men, some women, one couple, who had been around us for some time and all remarked something to the effect that, "It was always clear that she called the shots and you towed the line."

 

I think she is just used to being the most competent person in most situations, and so inadvertently "takes control" in the interest of helping. I think that competence attracted me to her. As I have become healthier (yes, my own years of therapy) I have needed/wanted the somewhat maternal/nurturer less, and actually felt very boxed in by it.

 

For about three and a half years of our (seven year) marriage, I was her "fill in/support" to make sure that other tasks did not get in the way of what was important to her, which was work, her family and our son/stepson. She once said I made a great wife.

 

So in part it is fitting together. While she may have a drink when eating out, if I have beer in the house, we need to hide it if her parents might be around. Heck, we hid it from our son for years out of fear he would tell her mother! I did not push to make a dent in traditions or events, and essentially folded into the environment. She is likely to be listening to a Jimmy Swaggart sermon (do not try to pigeon hole her though as some narrow-minded person) while I would prefer music or reading. I avoid the television, overall; she and our son enjoy watching television together.

 

So after a while, when I generally come home from work quite a bit after she has come home, and she and our son are visiting in the family room, I became weary of the surprise when she would look up and say, "Oh, you got us dinner and started laundry already?" Why not? I'd been home half an hour, and if I hadn't, it would be getting late.

 

I didn't want to say much about the relationship because she is intelligent, competent, talented (musically), caring in many ways (and to many people), but...and this is odd...I became her enabler. This is odd because in her previous marriage, nearly all had fallen on her, including maintaining the stable job with health insurance benefits. I encourage her in clothes shopping, go with her to help her (yes, she's referred to me as her queer eye for the straight girl--and I'm not even bi, but have good taste).

 

I haven't mentioned the "S" word, but while she always seemed to enjoy (putting it mildly) lovemaking, we could easily go two, three or six weeks without, even early in our marriage. I ceased looking to make love because of what felt, to me, like rejection; and when we would make love, while she enjoyed the pleasure of it, to me she was too passive; I rarely felt "wanted." Interestingly enough, she told me her ex-husband felt the same way.

 

Mind you, I am careful about my hygiene (brush my teeth four to five times/daily, etc), I enjoy rubbing her legs and feet if we are sitting together, I do nearly all the cooking, give her shoulder rubs without a "reason" or expectation, when I find gifts, inexpensive or not, I look for those that will speak to her/reflect on her...so I'm not the guy who comes home, has his beers, gets up at 9:30 from the TV and hopes to get some.

 

However, I gave up pursuing her and by two years ago, really felt I didn't care if we made love or not. I was not using pornography or something like that; my life kept me busy enough that I could tell myself it didn't matter, and in fact preferred the roommate style after a while to the expectation/fear/hurt of trying to cultivate that part of our relationship. Several times I asked her if she would consider counseling for us our her (I was seeing a psychologist) and was generally rebuffed, as she is action-oriented and more concerned with what one does that worrying about finding out why one does or does not do something.

 

This action-oriented personality also is a strength.

 

We had a difficult engagement where my ex-wife tried to get me to break off the engagement and see about working things out. My wife took it into her own hands at times (action-oriented) to make my ex-wife back off by saying things that were better left unsaid. We were engaged quickly, broke off the engagement and after about ten months decided we'd get to back together and nearly immediately (six weeks later) wed. I had been divorced two years when we met. She did see herself as Mama Bear protecting me from my ex.

 

So while I resented where I felt I landed in her list of priorities, (1) I have myself to blame for not making a bigger issue of it and (2) I generally admired and supported the commitments she made that appeared to come before me/our marriage, as they were not selfish, wasting her time, etc.

 

Now in MT this past Saturday she said something that was very hurtful to me (unintentionally, not even aware it was hurtful) and when I asked her to stop and let's look at it, instead she simply kept repeating what she had said and why it shouldn't hurt. It was wonderful that she did this in front of someone else, as it was in some ways a microcosm for what has been wrong in our relationship from Day One. In the end by the time we left she was saying, "Oh, so I AM really seeing this as all about me, and how I am seen, and that's why I want to show him (me) why he shouldn't be hurt, rather than acknowledging that I hurt him."

 

I apologize for the length, if any of you stuck with it, but it sets that background in place. I have joked that I'd be a good husband if she only made about $250,000/year, so I could also plan our weekend getaways and the like to "keep us connected."

 

So what am I working on? Honoring my legitimate needs and desires, and "fighting" to make them known, acknowledged, at least, and if possible met. I have to take care of myself, nurture myself, and not draw that from another.

 

As for the affair, yet, it's the only affair I've had. emotional or other wise. As for my affair partner, we have known each other for about two years, far longer than I knew my wife when I proposed. It's interesting: Many would consider her background horrible, yet she is grateful, positive and caring. She has a professional degree yet is a former IV drug user (clean needles only, thank you, routinely tested). I've seen her when her medications were off and she was paranoid and needed to be coaxed into going to have them adjusted.

 

Three years ago she was diagnosed BPD, yet today one would never suspect that. Why? There aren't pills for that, but there is hard work; there is learning; there is awareness; there is the desire not to be like that. She's the person who actually carried a feeling journal with her, so she could learn to recognize what she was feeling. She is doing the hard work, and I admire that.

 

For whatever reason, her mental illness (bipolar at the least) doesn't scare me. We broke NC in January when she was sick, and I came over and made soup for her. We didn't even touch.

 

Yet...because of or in spite of...she and I understand and embrace one another in a way that neither of us has heretofore experienced. My background was being raised by what one might call an "associate" of The Sopranos, in the same state, no less. I thought everybody's dad taught them how to throw knives, etc, rather than throw baseballs.

 

Yet...we fit. I speak my mind too readily for some midwestern sensibilities (apologies to others in the midwest who might disagree with that) and my wife feels the need to censor me so I don't appear...different. Heck, I am from another culture, and a bit of a gadfly, but I don't hurt people intentionally...and I appreciate when someone will tell me if I inadvertently hurt someone's feelings. There is a distinction between hurting someone and making them uncomfortable by speaking the truth, however.

 

And my AP, OW...OK, I sound like a freakin' teenager...but as her adult daughter said, "Mom, you've never met a man who understood you until now. Never."

 

With all that said, I agree about one relationship into another. We screwed up there. I called the AP to let her know I was going to confess the affair. OK, I'll add this: We all went to the same church, which pretty much suggested the AP find a different church when she talked to someone about it...and there was extreme pressure on me after that to tell my wife: "If you don't, we really will have to." Yes, this was after the SA was over, but not the care.

 

Knowing it could have blow-back on her, I told my AP when I was going to tell my BS. My AP sent a text that day asking if it went OK, and would I call. I did, she asked if I would spend the night and I did (and we did not make love, but we did make out, guilty as charged). It was the first full night we slept in the same bed and I loved simply waking to find her there. However, I saw my old tendency crop up: I was COLD and didn't want to awaken her to find other blankets. That was a dangerous sign and I recognized it in the morning, and promised not to shove my needs down/to speak up.

 

We had made love about a half dozen times. We never thought it was right. She had backed away, knowing her feelings were changing, when she came to see me at my office to tell me how she'd missed me. I'd spent my time in tears not seeing or talking to her...and we'd never kissed or held hands. That day, for the very first time, I saw her as a beautiful woman to whom I was attracted. She asked what I was thinking, and I told her that I wanted to kiss her, for the first time. She replied that she felt the same, and then we talked about how that could never happen/we could not do that, and what steps we needed to take to prevent that. Then she got up, walked over to my chair and bent down and kissed me; and I kissed back.

 

At first she said, "Just one time. I need to know what you are like." I said, "I'll never leave my wife; that's not in the cards, but if you want to share this, once, we shouldn't BUT..."

 

Two weeks later I held her as she slept during the day, a nap she lamented (WHY WOULDN'T I STAY AWAKE AND MAKE LOVE?). As I did she murmured in her sleep, "Don't let me go."

 

Sorry folks, I find her the woman I did not know existed and who, if she did, would never notice me. And she loves me. Warts, craziness and all.

 

So yes...she cannot (for her sake) be the cause of the end of the marriage. You are all right about that.

 

What happens, though, when someone who has emotionally detached for a year or more from a marriage then realizes, "Hey, I don't have to live like this, and I've asked us to go to counseling, etc, but nothing changes..."?

 

My dilemma now is that out of the house about nine days, with one phone call with wife and one MT session, I don't miss her. As I posted elsewhere, I really don't...it's being married to someone that I could highly recommend as a marriage partner to someone a bit different than I am; maybe someone from this particular social-religious culture; sometimes it is, perhaps, Country Mouse, City Mouse.

 

I read "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" and the biggest missing items were sharing no real joint passion/vision, and the sense that if I lost my wife, if she left me, for instance, I would not be losing something I deem irreplaceable or absolutely necessary. That is sad.

 

Do I love my wife? I don't know. I certainly don't feel attached to her in that way, but if around her, would I care for her, rub her shoulders and feet, talk with her, laugh with her, shop with her, make love with her? Certainly. And maybe that is all that is required of a good marriage (I know many who would want a marriage like ours), but when I look in her eyes she is searching for that glint that says, for real, "You are THE ONE," and she does not find it. Sadly, I now find it when I look in hers...but it feels like the pressure to fulfill a need I am unable to meet.

 

Pacem

[Ingenue 2]

I don't think this is a matter of trust, OP. I think this is a moment of clarity sneaking through the affair fog.

 

She is already cheating on a spouse to be with you. You are already separated from your spouse and so you could be together IF she divorces as well.

 

BUT

 

She said "if [she] was single", she would marry you.

 

I think, she is telling you, and you heard it clearly for the first time, that she is NOT single and has no plans at the moment of becoming single to make that a reality.

 

I hope you pay attention.

 

She is single! She said (did I mistype?), "If you were single, I'd marry you tomorrow."

 

She is very single. I am the one who cheated, not her; but she is the one who says she violated a rule she had, never to date a MM. She doesn't want to be or seem to be a "home-wrecker." If we divorce, she did not wreck it; the most that can be said is I realized, "I don't have to live as I have been, and if my wife and I cannot fix it, I don't have to stay." Maybe it's too easy with no shared assets, no shared children, no shared vision.

[NoIDidn't]

She is single! She said (did I mistype?), "If you were single, I'd marry you tomorrow."

 

She is very single. I am the one who cheated, not her; but she is the one who says she violated a rule she had, never to date a MM. She doesn't want to be or seem to be a "home-wrecker." If we divorce, she did not wreck it; the most that can be said is I realized, "I don't have to live as I have been, and if my wife and I cannot fix it, I don't have to stay." Maybe it's too easy with no shared assets, no shared children, no shared vision.

 

Ahh, thank you, I misread it. That said, I think its a good thing that you are considering that she may have trust issues regarding your true intentions since you were cheating to be with her and she "trusted [you] to vet the men around her".

 

But I still read foggy thinking here. Absent this affair and her words before an affair ever began of being interested in you, would you still feel that you and your W shared nothing in common? Its possible that you don't have anything in common with your W, but its also possible that you are revising your marriage history to make being with the OW sound more appealing than being with your W. I say this because the "no shared vision" statement is said often by those with magical thinking going on. And "no shared vision" is usually pretty good code for "we don't communicate well and we invest heavily in things that don't help with that communication".

 

Still, I think its good you are concerned that she will reject you if you were single. Question is why do you think that way? Is it important that she trust you considering the circumstances? Or are you considering reconciling with your W if things don't work out with the OW?

[Ingenue 2]

Thank you all for the responses.

 

First, reconciliation with my wife is separate from anything with OW. That is why we have reverted truly to NC. I think this is the first time my wife and I may be in a position to work on our relationship. The MTapist (my own word!) has phrased it as building a new relationship as opposed to fixing what we have had. Purely from a conscience/right/wrong standpoint, I feel that if my wife and I can work things out...if we both are willing, able and will put forth the effort to tear down what doesn't work and build something that does...then I ought to do that.

 

The kicker is that for us, it's not a matter of gross irresponsibility, being nasty or cold to one another, neither of us contributing to our life together and meeting its responsibilities. Frankly a month or two ago she even began wondering if she needed to rework her thinking about sex, what she likely absorbed growing up, culturally, and has begun buying various books on the subject, etc.

 

Do I think the OW would not trust me because of the affair we have had? I don't know, but I don't think it unreasonable. Or, at least if I were to value my marriage too lightly. Perhaps that is the key issue.

 

I am so sad/angry that I ever came to be attracted to her. I found it really doesn't work to become that relationally intimate with someone if such attraction is possible.

 

So definitely not looking to hedge bets one relationship versus the other. It would be easier if I were to have a change of heart toward my wife. She believes it is all a matter of volition, but I haven't found that yet.

 

The thought of the end of the marriage is horribly sad to me, and that is good. But sad, or in some way feeling bad for my wife (whose love for me I do not doubt), may not be enough to keep us together; maybe it should not be enough.

[bentnotbroken]

You are right...it shouldn't be enough. She deserves more. Divorce isn't easy, it shouldn't be easy, but it is preferable to being convenient.

[Ingenue 2]

And years ago I would enjoy nights of insomnia...simply to notice her sleeping, quietly pray for her and thank God that we were together.

 

Heck, give me enough pain killers and I will still do that...but I love EVERYBODY then.

 

I would like her to have that...but it's SO EASY to make it about her (you deserve more, believe me) when it's really about me (I am so unhappy, even if I should not be and it may be selfish).

 

What she deserves is for me to find and be inspired by that love again, so her life is not upended and there is not an occasion to add to self-doubts (which seems ridiculous...I know it's not a problem with her...but she feels rejected!) but rather to joy.

[TinaniT]

My husband and I met through an affair. Exit affairs, I guess they'd be termed.

We trust each other. We have never lied to each other. Well, that's not true, I lied once about some small thing I was embarrassed about and he reacted very strongly, so I suppose the truth IS more important to our relationship then it might be otherwise... though we both had been cheated on by our spouses before each other so it may be that would be the case anyhow.

Neither of us had cheated before.

We both went to counseling separately and together.

 

 

 

However, if a marriage CAN be saved, it should be. It can't always... but sometimes it can even when it seems dead. Whether OW will trust you or not should have nothing to do with that.

I was very scared that my husband would leave to be with me and his marriage still had a chance. He had to convince me that it was over whether I was there or not. Your OW probably needs the same, and she wants to see the action and emotional healing.

And yet, don't expect her to wait forever. This can't be the ingenue show with the two women waiting for the results. Whatever choice has to be committed to fully - no more thinking about how wonderful the AP is and how your life would be if you are with your wife; no regrets if moving forward with AP.

 

If you are not seeing an individual therapist, I suggest it. Your AP has issues. That's fine; sometimes us people with issues NEED that in our partner; however it is quick (not that I'm saying that's wrong because it was quick for my husband and I as well) and perspective doesn't hurt.

[FelicityShot]

ingenue????????? lmfao.