Single and looking ladies, and options

[FrustratedStandards]

I didn't see your edit, but this is quite elegant in its simplicity...

 

As cliché as it sounds, life really is simple. We just always find ways to complicate it. That is the human condition.

[Els]

Yes!!! Exactly!

 

That is why I don't understand how some people are so condescending to those who don't value personality exclusively. Out of spite they walk around looking like crap and then blame women for being too shallow for not giving them a chance.

 

Lady, methinks you have some serious issues, if you think people choose their manner of dress solely to spite you and your girlfriends.

[lospantalonsfancie]

Yes, Somedude. The dating market in the modern day USA does unfairly favor women over men. Its absolutely true: if you take a young woman and man of equal attractiveness and social skills, the woman will have more options, better options, will have to work less for them, and she will be generally happier as a result. It sucks for us. However, recall that women had the shaft for most of human history, and still do in much of the rest of the world. In light of that, lets let them have their moment... Things will even out with time.

[Els]

Its absolutely true: if you take a young woman and man of equal attractiveness and social skills, the woman will have more options, better options, will have to work less for them, and she will be generally happier as a result.

 

Even if you might be correct, I think the key word here is young. If you took a 40-yo man and a 40-yo woman, you would easily find this reversed (not that there is anything wrong with 40-yo women, just that society prizes youth in women).

[RedRobin]

How many single and looking ladies out there (yourself or somebody you know) have zero options. Meaning, you know without a doubt that there are no men who want to date you or her.

 

 

 

----

This issue is my pet peeve and seems to get me the most hate on this forum. So this thread is designed to make things clear once and for all.

 

My belief is that every woman who is single, can name a few guys off the top of her head who want a relationship (not sex) with her.

 

Surprise me.

 

Nope. No men I currently know want a relationship with me. I have a number of married male friends who have made it very clear they'd love for me to be the OW. I still stay friends with them unless they become obnoxious about it.

 

I have a much younger single man trying to get me to hook up with him.

 

I have a much older man trying to get me to do the same thing.

 

None of them are interested in a relationship.

 

I've asked out two men who are close to my age. One had a girlfriend. The other (I think) is recently divorced. Seems like he is playing the field. So I'm no longer interested in him. In getting to know him a bit more, he wasn't such a nice person after all. Or just scattered and chaotic. Either way. Not a fit. So, yea. I'm like a guy that way. Sometimes when the other person asks you out first (male or female), it doesn't mean you will end up together. That's the breaks.

 

and I'm 'old' by alot of men's standards (over 35). Which I'm fine with. I've gotten pretty good at figuring out which guys are just out for sex. We usually end up having a good laugh about it really. I don't take it personally. I'm just not going there for something short term. I also don't 'sex' my way into relationships. Not my style.

[RedRobin]

I missed this earlier, but I agree:

 

 

 

It's been both my observation and experience that many women will not let on when they feel sad and depressed about being single. There's so much hype and insistence that we "be happy being single" that most of us pretend to be when we're not. Or after a while women get so jaded from lousy relationships, they see no other options than to be single and just shut up and bear it.

 

I think our culture has decided that being single is some kind of communicable disease.

 

People think that because I'm single I have no 'options'. Everyone has options. Just ones they don't like.

 

I won't be an OW, and I won't be a disposable sex toy for any man of any age, and I don't date multiple people simultaneously. But that seems to be the most popular dating style these days. So, yea. It will probably take longer for me to find someone since I'm an outlier.

 

I can always decide to be the OW, sleep with lots of guys hoping one of them will 'pick me', or be ok with lots of lying that accompanies multiple dating strategies. Those would be my options. Trouble is... I wouldn't want the men those strategies tend to catch. Not a good long term plan for me.

[Ross MwcFan]

Why? So they admit it or they don't? What difference does it make? Why not just let it go and move on? That's a serious question. Really stop for a minute and ask yourself.. "Why does it matter so much they agree the world isn't fair?"

 

 

 

Re-read the above statement. You're basically saying "I require the affection of a woman to define my worth as a person"

 

You can't fill that gaping hole in your heart with another person SD. I get that you "want" a relationship.. but after reading many, *many* of your posts here.. you just don't seem ready for one.

 

I think it's completely natural that most people, if by a certain age, have had zero success or hardly any success with the opposite sex, would feel undesirable, and the only way that they would be able to get proof that that isn't true, the only way to fill that hole, would be to start being successful with the opposite sex.

[somedude81]

Attraction is very important, the most important when it comes to dating. Its not all strictly the way a person looks. It's the way they move and carry themselves. Its the way they speak and the things they say. The way they smile.

This.

 

Often times we can see a person and we aren't sure if they are attractive or not. That's where personality comes in. The insecure guy will be defensive, whereas the confident guy can grow from okay to sexy. This is where the difference lies and a lot of men are in this category.

You know, I'm actually thinking that this is why I can't get a GF.

 

I'm not conventionally attractive though I'm certainly not ugly.

 

But I've been insecure and shy around girls for most of my life. While I've outgrown most of the shyness, I still carry around the insecurity and there is a very good chance that women are picking up on it.

 

And for as long as I'm broadcasting that, no woman would go out with me, no matter how many I ask. And that really sucks because what I need most of all is some success to get rid of that insecurity.

 

That's why I said a few threads ago, that I strongly believe that if I could get a girl to let me date and sleep with her for a month, I'd be fine. And willing to bet $1,000 that I would. Hell, I wouldn't even care about winning any money because the confidence would be it's own reward. Sadly there have been no takers.

Edited February 29, 2012 by somedude81

[jobaba]

So for the folks you're talking about here (myself included), they are tempered to rely on their personalities to attract women, so if women use anything other than personality (i.e., physical looks) to judge attractiveness, then these men will instinctively go on the offensive and attack the women's character to prop themselves back up. I know this because I do this myself...

 

If that man uses physical attraction as a weeder, then he is a hypocrite though. I mean guys call women shallow here and then turn around in the next post and say, "I'm not picky, I only won't date fat and ugly women."

 

Yes!!! Exactly!

 

That is why I don't understand how some people are so condescending to those who don't value personality exclusively. Out of spite they walk around looking like crap and then blame women for being too shallow for not giving them a chance.

 

For me, if a woman turns me down for being too short, too ugly, too minority , and I don't know her from adam, it doesnt matter.

 

However, I find that if I really get to know a woman on the inside and we have spent a lot of time together, and then she rejects me because of my looks, that's a hard pill to swallow. It's a big difference...

[somedude81]

Adding on to my previous post,

 

it ties into what I said in an earlier thread I wrote that women are allowed to be insecure and they can still date. Sure a woman who isn't confident isn't going to be as attractive as one who is, but being insecure isn't a dealbreaker and many guys will look it over. Songs

prove it.

 

But if a guy even hints at being insecure, he'll be hard-pressed to find a girl who can look past it. It's almost as if women naturally look for weakness in men and run when they sense it.

[xxoo]

Adding on to my previous post,

 

it ties into what I said in an earlier thread I wrote that women are allowed to be insecure and they can still date. Sure a woman who isn't confident isn't going to be as attractive as one who is, but being insecure isn't a dealbreaker and many guys will look it over. Songs

prove it.

 

But if a guy even hints at being insecure, he'll be hard-pressed to find a girl who can look past it. It's almost as if women naturally look for weakness in men and run when they sense it.

 

I think it is more that women naturally look for--and respond to--strength in men. It is more attractive than abs, or height, or money.

 

On the flip side, a woman can be lacking confidence, because men love to be the KISA (knight in shining armor). But women are "allowed" less when it comes to the physical, so it isn't like women have it any easier.

[verhrzn]

I agree with you, but I suspect V will claim otherwise.

 

Bingo!

 

I have zip, nada, zilch options. I'm on two dating sites, and haven't been messaged in over two months. Oh no, wait, I did have a 90 year old black guy message me to tell me he thought I was very pretty. Does that count?

 

Sorry, SD, but I am your dark mirror which proves women DON'T have it easier. I guarantee that if you were stuck in my body, you'd despair just as me. Comparably, I'd LOVE to be a guy. Women throw out a ton more non-verbal hints than men ("The Definitive Book of Body Language" by Allan and Barbara Pease") so after spotting the non-verbal signals, I'd just have to swagger up and impressive em with my wit and charm.

 

How AWESOME would that be... that by making the first move, I'm not only seen as confident (as opposed to desperate), but I could actually IMPROVE my chances. And I'd get the pick of the room to try for.... as opposed to being a girl, in which you have to accept what comes your way. So you may want that cute guy with the glasses over in the corner, but if he isn't approaching you, you're dead in the water.

 

Seriously, body switching, somebody make this happen!

Edited February 29, 2012 by verhrzn

[RedRobin]

That's why I said a few threads ago, that I strongly believe that if I could get a girl to let me date and sleep with her for a month, I'd be fine. And willing to bet $1,000 that I would. Hell, I wouldn't even care about winning any money because the confidence would be it's own reward. Sadly there have been no takers.

 

From the few posts of yours I've read, it appears that women below your physical standards don't "count" as confidence builders for you.

 

It appears the only women sufficient for you to build your 'confidence' are ones that meet a high standard for physical attractiveness. Ones you feel you are beating out other men to 'get'. Both men and women fall into this trap when they are young (in different ways perhaps, that are more or less dictated by social norms).

 

Do you have any friends? People you care about and who care about you? If so, then you are on the path to having a healthy, loving relationship someday. If not, then I'd say that is where you need to start.

[RedRobin]

How AWESOME would that be... that by making the first move, I'm not only seen as confident (as opposed to desperate), but I could actually IMPROVE my chances. And I'd get the pick of the room to try for.... as opposed to being a girl, in which you have to accept what comes your way. So you may want that cute guy with the glasses over in the corner, but if he isn't approaching you, you're dead in the water.

 

Meh... don't worry about those guys who see women as 'desperate' if they make the first move. They aren't a match for a go-gettin', smart woman like yourself anyway.

 

and don't worry about them saying 'yes' out of desperation either. Your people picker will improve with time. Just like the guys... asking them out doesn't mean YOU will have to keep liking them either. It just opens up the door for an opportunity to get to know each other.

 

That's what we do in the business world and noone bats an eyelash. How crappy of a marketer would you be if you WAITED for all the customers to come to you??? Pretty crappy

 

Was thinking, Verhzn... maybe you and Somedude could pick up some marketing books. The same rules apply. Know your customer. Figure out their needs and meet them. Market to as many possible customers as possible. Don't let rejection get you down. You could even draw up a dating 'business plan'. Figure out your core strengths and your target 'market' then go for it. Might make it less personal that way.

[zengirl]

How many single and looking ladies out there (yourself or somebody you know) have zero options. Meaning, you know without a doubt that there are no men who want to date you or her.

 

Not single and looking right now, but any time I WAS single and looking, I certainly didn't have a surefire candidate who wanted to date me and have a relationship (not sex). I don't even think a man (a non-desperate) knows he wants to have a relationship with you after just meeting you. I never kept orbiters, personally, so it wasn't like I was like, "Oh, ya, Dave wants to date me and Paul wants to date me." Maybe some guy saw me and thought I was hot, but he didn't know ME and I had no idea he was interested. And if he asked me out and wasn't someone I was interested in, it sucks that he feels that way; it's not an ego boost---it's a bummer.

 

I think the notion that girls can "name" interested parties is untrue, unless she's the type that intentionally keeps orbiters around and attracts them (and not all girls attract orbiters), though I think just about anyone (male or female), including you, Somedude, could be in a relationship with "just anyone" if they had absolutely no standards, yes.

 

Oh, and everyone has dry spells. I wouldn't consider myself someone who's had trouble dating (most of my friends, male or female, have more trouble with dating than I have in recent years---though dating in Asia was tougher) and I've had dry spells.

 

From the few posts of yours I've read, it appears that women below your physical standards don't "count" as confidence builders for you.

 

It appears the only women sufficient for you to build your 'confidence' are ones that meet a high standard for physical attractiveness.

 

Ding, ding, ding! That's just it. Somedude talks about overweight girls sometimes as though they aren't even people.

[GoodOnPaper]

And I'd get the pick of the room to try for.... as opposed to being a girl, in which you have to accept what comes your way.

 

Only that top echelon of guys that all women drool over ever really have "the pick of the room". For me, figuring out who to approach was truly exhausting.

 

First, the "league" thing. Approach someone too attractive and you increase the odds of being made a fool of. But you want to find someone cute enough to inspire you to actually work up the courage and go over and talk with her. That factor alone is like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

Then, you have to figure out if she actually wants to be approached and it always seemed that very few women had any air of approachability about them -- at least when it came to me. The few that did seem outgoing and approachable were the ones that all the guys in the room were trying to approach.

 

Not really a lot of fun . . .

[verhrzn]

Was thinking, Verhzn... maybe you and Somedude could pick up some marketing books. The same rules apply. Know your customer. Figure out their needs and meet them. Market to as many possible customers as possible. Don't let rejection get you down. You could even draw up a dating 'business plan'. Figure out your core strengths and your target 'market' then go for it. Might make it less personal that way.

 

I actually read a book a few months ago about using sale strategies in the dating world ("You Lost Him At Hello: A Saleswoman's Secrets to Closing the Deal with Any Guy You Want.") Not surprisingly, I found the philosophy very limiting and, well, kinda manipulative. Very manipulative, actually. Lots of game playing... well maybe isn't surprising, given the cut-throat nature of sales.

 

From my research, it seems that my "customers" needs are: hot girl. Since I cannot fulfill that need, I'm kinda stuck before I even begin.

 

Thus the body swapping idea!

[fortyninethousand322]

SD, these threads are making you the LS whipping boy. Everyone wants you to suck it up and deal with your crappy dating life. That, and no one likes a gender war.

 

I understand where you're coming from and it makes some sense sometimes, but maybe it's time just to give up on this.

[verhrzn]

SD, these threads are making you the LS whipping boy. Everyone wants you to suck it up and deal with your crappy dating life. That, and no one likes a gender war.

 

I understand where you're coming from and it makes some sense sometimes, but maybe it's time just to give up on this.

 

He doesn't need to 'give up' on dating, he just needs to get some stones and approach girls. If he can get over his whole rejected-wounded-ego-thing, he'd do just fine.

 

Only that top echelon of guys that all women drool over ever really have "the pick of the room". For me, figuring out who to approach was truly exhausting.

 

First, the "league" thing. Approach someone too attractive and you increase the odds of being made a fool of. But you want to find someone cute enough to inspire you to actually work up the courage and go over and talk with her. That factor alone is like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

Then, you have to figure out if she actually wants to be approached and it always seemed that very few women had any air of approachability about them -- at least when it came to me. The few that did seem outgoing and approachable were the ones that all the guys in the room were trying to approach.

 

You have the pick of the room to APPROACH. Which means you have limitless opportunities, if you're willing to try. Yes, the girl might turn you down, but that doesn't mean you "look like a fool." It means you shrug and move on. Why the need to take it so personally?

 

Furthermore, maybe what you need is a better body language reader. Women send out TONS of signals, but they are very subtle, and frankly, guys suck at reading signals even when broadcast loud and clear. Pick up the Body Language book I mentioned earlier, and start people-watching on a regular basis, you'd be amazed at the messages people send out.

[fortyninethousand322]

He doesn't need to 'give up' on dating, he just needs to get some stones and approach girls. If he can get over his whole rejected-wounded-ego-thing, he'd do just fine.

 

Well that's debatable, but I was talking about giving up on the complainer threads. Those really haven't worked for him.

[GoodOnPaper]

You have the pick of the room to APPROACH. Which means you have limitless opportunities, if you're willing to try. Yes, the girl might turn you down, but that doesn't mean you "look like a fool." It means you shrug and move on. Why the need to take it so personally?

 

I always felt like a fool getting shut down at the initial approach -- it meant that the problem was me being ugly, nerdy, etc. However, if given a chance -- even just a couple of dates -- and it didn't work out, I could convince myself that the problem was us not being compatible. Much easier on the self-esteem.

 

Furthermore, maybe what you need is a better body language reader. Women send out TONS of signals, but they are very subtle, and frankly, guys suck at reading signals even when broadcast loud and clear.

 

Firstly, the signals are not nearly as loud and clear as you think. However, I do have that classic "nice guy" symptom of having a terrible time reading signals.

[zengirl]

I always felt like a fool getting shut down at the initial approach -- it meant that the problem was me being ugly, nerdy, etc. However, if given a chance -- even just a couple of dates -- and it didn't work out, I could convince myself that the problem was us not being compatible. Much easier on the self-esteem.

 

Why don't you just choose to make it easier on the self-esteem from the get go? Whenever I asked a guy out or flirted with him and it didn't work (and I'm not one of those girls like V who feels I have to wait for a guy to make a move---thank goodness since I asked hubby out AND had to remind him to set up a date even once he said he would; I was even a little pushy ), I didn't think, "God, I suck because ________." I stopped thinking like that, and my dating life turned around. Instead, I thought things like, "Oh, well, not the right one." Why take it so personally?

[fortyninethousand322]

Why don't you just choose to make it easier on the self-esteem from the get go? Whenever I asked a guy out or flirted with him and it didn't work (and I'm not one of those girls like V who feels I have to wait for a guy to make a move---thank goodness since I asked hubby out AND had to remind him to set up a date even once he said he would; I was even a little pushy ), I didn't think, "God, I suck because ________." I stopped thinking like that, and my dating life turned around. Instead, I thought things like, "Oh, well, not the right one." Why take it so personally?

 

Because once you get in a rut and you've always been in a rut it gets harder and harder to get out and tell yourself it's ok.

 

I contrast my dating life with my experience playing basketball. I don't get down on myself after missing a shot or a series of shots because I know I've made plenty more than I've missed. I have past experience to justify my self confidence. With dating, men who have experienced nothing but bad outcomes are not likely to say "I'll get it next time". There's just no logical reason to do so. Why would such a guy not take each rejection personally?

[jobaba]

Bingo!

 

I have zip, nada, zilch options. I'm on two dating sites, and haven't been messaged in over two months. Oh no, wait, I did have a 90 year old black guy message me to tell me he thought I was very pretty. Does that count?

 

 

That's not true...

 

Way back in the day when I was still dating casually, I PMed you and tried to start a correspondence with you. I was very impressed by the fact that you seemed relatively non-shallow. This is a rare trait and something I actively seek for both in people I date and socialize with. I had also seen your pics and thought you were attractive (though looks don't matter to me). I am also into sci-fi and comic/geeky stuff, though not nearly as much as some.

 

Even though it was an EXTREME long shot to connect with someone from a message board (especially one where I've aired my dirty laundry and most pessimistic attitudes) I'd venture to guess that I'd be interested in you if this was real life.

 

Of course, this was before I realized you have some serious (but very repairable) self-esteem issues.

 

Anyway, I've got a gal now. PM me and I'll show you a pic.

[RedRobin]

I actually read a book a few months ago about using sale strategies in the dating world ("You Lost Him At Hello: A Saleswoman's Secrets to Closing the Deal with Any Guy You Want.") Not surprisingly, I found the philosophy very limiting and, well, kinda manipulative. Very manipulative, actually. Lots of game playing... well maybe isn't surprising, given the cut-throat nature of sales.

 

From my research, it seems that my "customers" needs are: hot girl. Since I cannot fulfill that need, I'm kinda stuck before I even begin.

 

Thus the body swapping idea!

 

oh... now, now. I'm sure lots of people have told you that isn't true (about the 'hot girl' thing).

 

Of course, having a slick front end attracts more people (that works in marketing too).

 

Sorry that you felt it was manipulative. Learning communication strategies and developing the skills necessary to entice people to stick around long enough to get to know them a bit seems like a positive thing. Especially if its done from a standpoint of legitimate caring. Sure, not everyone is going to resonate with you.

 

Most people in marketing don't have much luck if all they come forward with is what they want from their customers... not what they have to offer. It goes both ways. I think customers also don't trust those marketing folks who promise the sun and sky too... which I think some men and women tend to do when they come across someone interesting.