Single and looking ladies, and options

[RedRobin]

Ding, ding, ding! That's just it. Somedude talks about overweight girls sometimes as though they aren't even people.

 

I'm really sorry to hear that.

 

Somedude, is that true? Do you treat people like that? I hope not.

[RedRobin]

You have the pick of the room to APPROACH. Which means you have limitless opportunities, if you're willing to try. Yes, the (fill-in-the-blank) might turn you down, but that doesn't mean you "look like a fool." It means you shrug and move on. Why the need to take it so personally?

 

Replace 'girl' with 'guy' in your original statement above.

 

Rinse. Repeat.

 

(slow day...dreaded triple post!)

Edited February 29, 2012 by RedRobin

[HeavenOrHell]

There are as many men as there are women who find it hard to get a date, it's not the case at all that it's easier for women, or that all women have at least one person falling at their feet.

 

 

How many single and looking ladies out there (yourself or somebody you know) have zero options. Meaning, you know without a doubt that there are no men who want to date you or her.

 

 

 

----

This issue is my pet peeve and seems to get me the most hate on this forum. So this thread is designed to make things clear once and for all.

 

My belief is that every woman who is single, can name a few guys off the top of her head who want a relationship (not sex) with her.

 

Surprise me.

[azsinglegal]

The guys I want to date aren't the guys who want to date me.

 

My choices suck. Thus, I will remain single forever. With dogs.

[verhrzn]

oh... now, now. I'm sure lots of people have told you that isn't true (about the 'hot girl' thing).

 

Of course, having a slick front end attracts more people (that works in marketing too).

 

Sorry that you felt it was manipulative. Learning communication strategies and developing the skills necessary to entice people to stick around long enough to get to know them a bit seems like a positive thing. Especially if its done from a standpoint of legitimate caring. Sure, not everyone is going to resonate with you.

 

Most people in marketing don't have much luck if all they come forward with is what they want from their customers... not what they have to offer. It goes both ways. I think customers also don't trust those marketing folks who promise the sun and sky too... which I think some men and women tend to do when they come across someone interesting.

 

*Shrugs* It's a personal thing. Sales strategies work for some people. I could just never be a salesperson, as a job or for myself. It just feels too artificial and, like I said, manipulative to me. I also just lack the "selling" skills. I am me, with both my flaws and my strengths existing at the forefront. Wear my heart on my sleeve and all that. My mother likes to say that I actually have the opposite of trust issues... I will metaphorically expose my underbelly to strangers before I find out if they can be trusted, because of my honest nature.

 

I also don't think any sale strategy would work if you weren't selling what the customer wants to buy. Since guys want hot girls initially (with personality added on later), you DO need that attractive front in order to even get them to listen to your pitch. Thus, sale strategies are kinda worthless for girls without the attractive front. Approaching dating like sales seems to work best for attractive women who don't know to take dating further than the initial attraction.

[GoodOnPaper]

Why don't you just choose to make it easier on the self-esteem from the get go? Why take it so personally?

 

There is a lot at stake. For whatever reason, I've always looked at dating/sex/relationships to gain the level of acceptance that will justify that I am OK as a person. So there is a lot of fear of failure and a lot of trying to catch up in experience to what's supposed to be "normal". Yet deep down, I know that there are other aspects of life and personality qualities that are important but don't necessarily serve the dating "game" well -- so I'm constantly in conflict with myself.

[HeavenOrHell]

It's not a case of not 'good enough', my interest in men is dependent on how lovely a person they are, for example a man lacking in compassion, or is selfish, or arrogant=turn off, a man who is caring, compassionate and thoughtful, for example, =turn on, for me.

We're all different, we all find different things attractive.

 

 

Is there anything actually wrong with the options, or are they just not 'good enough' for you?

 

I'd say chances are, they aren't that bad at all.

 

Actually, I'm sure even V can name a couple of guys in the past few months who have expressed an interest in dating her.

[verhrzn]

Replace 'girl' with 'guy' in your original statement above.

 

Rinse. Repeat.

 

(slow day...dreaded triple post!)

 

As I've argued before, approaching men and approaching women aren't comparable. While I agree that women should shrug off initial rejection as well, and not take it personally, approaching men just isn't a winsome strategy for most women.

 

Because approaching is seen as the assertive/aggressive act, the "first move," women who engage in it run a very serious risk of being labeled either too aggressive (not feminine), or desperate. So approaching men can actually make you LESS attractive. The guy is probably reading you as "emasculating" him ("You're not enough of a man to approach me, so I'll do it for you.")

 

There are some women who are successful at approaching, but that's because I think they are 1) attractive enough physically that the guy was already going to approach them, and the girl just beat them to the punch and 2) exceptionally skilled at reading signals. I say "exceptionally" because men DON'T send out a lot of body signals (they are also way less talented at reading them than women.) That's usually WHY men approach, to indicate interest.

 

For me, personally, any time I've done the initial pursuing has ended very, very badly. Like "He's Just Not That Into You" says... if he isn't making the first move, he isn't interested.

[zengirl]

*Shrugs* It's a personal thing. Sales strategies work for some people. I could just never be a salesperson, as a job or for myself. It just feels too artificial and, like I said, manipulative to me. I also just lack the "selling" skills. I am me, with both my flaws and my strengths existing at the forefront. Wear my heart on my sleeve and all that.

 

It seems artificial and manipulative because you don't believe in what you're selling. I'm a good salesperson and have done commission sales (shoes, advertising, even cars for a summer in college) and worked in advertising for a firm (not my current career, but I was damn good at it). It was exhausting when I didn't 100% believe in what I was selling, but it was exhilarating when I did. Selling doesn't have to mean "lying."

 

I think dating is about selling yourself, but it's about deeply knowing and liking your 'product' (self!) first. You are right that you can't really sell a product you don't like---not for long or without a lot of exhaustion, at least, and quite a bit of manipulation and artificiality. But when you believe in what you're selling, it's great! Part of my job now is fundraising, but I love the organization I work for, it truly helps the community, and I represent it 100% accurately. That is something most people do with SOMETHING in their life -- try to persuade others to believe what they really and truly believe and act on it -- and that's all a sale is. Instead of selling us and the world on how you suck so bad, I really wish you'd sell us on the things you like about yourself. And if you don't, that's job #1---find some things to like!

 

Thing is, you don't like yourself, so of course you don't want to sell yourself to others. That's what's sad. I really wish you liked yourself more.

 

That said, I'm not sure I'd apply marketing strategies directly to dating. I see the metaphor, but they aren't really quite the same. How to Make Friends and Influence People is a good book to read at least once, I think, though. More about business than social life but works for either.

 

There is a lot at stake. For whatever reason, I've always looked at dating/sex/relationships to gain the level of acceptance that will justify that I am OK as a person. So there is a lot of fear of failure and a lot of trying to catch up in experience to what's supposed to be "normal". Yet deep down, I know that there are other aspects of life and personality qualities that are important but don't necessarily serve the dating "game" well -- so I'm constantly in conflict with myself.

 

Hanging your validation on other people is a very dangerous game, IMO.

[HeavenOrHell]

Some women don't care how 'hot' a guy is, they want someone with an attractive personality, I personally wouldn't feel attracted to certain parts of your personality, the fact that you said in one of your other threads you wanted to make a girl suffer, or to hurt her (??) because she only wanted a friendship with you, that would make me run a mile, you sometimes sound resentful of women as you can't find a girlfriend, and make out women have it easy (WRONG!), also you come across as needy/desperate for a girlfriend and that's a turn off, and the fact you've talked about women who you think are less attractive than you, which comes across as derogatory, ie you'd be lowering your standards, it doesn't paint a great picture of you, sorry, but that's how you come across.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but this IS how you come across, and IMO it does you no favours. (I'm not perfect either-who is?!-I know what my bad points are and I'm working on them).

I'm sure you have your good points, it would be good to see more of those.

 

I appreciate your honesty.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that there is actually nothing wrong with the guys, they just aren't hot enough for you.

[verhrzn]

It seems artificial and manipulative because you don't believe in what you're selling. I'm a good salesperson and have done commission sales (shoes, advertising, even cars for a summer in college) and worked in advertising for a firm (not my current career, but I was damn good at it). It was exhausting when I didn't 100% believe in what I was selling, but it was exhilarating when I did. Selling doesn't have to mean "lying."

 

I think dating is about selling yourself, but it's about deeply knowing and liking your 'product' (self!) first. You are right that you can't really sell a product you don't like---not for long or without a lot of exhaustion, at least, and quite a bit of manipulation and artificiality. But when you believe in what you're selling, it's great! Part of my job now is fundraising, but I love the organization I work for, it truly helps the community, and I represent it 100% accurately. That is something most people do with SOMETHING in their life -- try to persuade others to believe what they really and truly believe and act on it -- and that's all a sale is. Instead of selling us and the world on how you suck so bad, I really wish you'd sell us on the things you like about yourself. And if you don't, that's job #1---find some things to like!

 

Thing is, you don't like yourself, so of course you don't want to sell yourself to others. That's what's sad. I really wish you liked yourself more.

 

That said, I'm not sure I'd apply marketing strategies directly to dating. I see the metaphor, but they aren't really quite the same. How to Make Friends and Influence People is a good book to read at least once, I think, though. More about business than social life but works for either.

 

I know it's tempting to apply the "you don't like yourself" as the explanation to everything I do, but truly, that is not the case here. Even when I love or adore something, I can't sell it. I just don't have that skill set. I just come off as pushy, boring and annoying.

 

I am not a persuasive person. I'm just not. It's why I've stayed far, far away from any commission-based or fundraising job.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRobin

From the few posts of yours I've read, it appears that women below your physical standards don't "count" as confidence builders for you.

 

It appears the only women sufficient for you to build your 'confidence' are ones that meet a high standard for physical attractiveness.

 

This is why engaging in this conversation with the OP is a waste of time.

 

From his POV, girls/ women are at fault for not considering all the "good guys" (I take exception to his use of the term, but for this purpose I'll accept it) who they might not find attractive as viable options. In HIS view, these guys do qualify as viable options for the women. Women are just too superficial and have it "too easy" to accept this, according to him.

 

But, overweight or otherwise "unattractive" girls and women are justifiably (in his view) eliminated from being considered as "options" for him and men in general.

 

 

Right?

 

It's a very convoluted double standard upon which his entire world view seems to be perched.

[zengirl]

I know it's tempting to apply the "you don't like yourself" as the explanation to everything I do, but truly, that is not the case here. Even when I love or adore something, I can't sell it. I just don't have that skill set. I just come off as pushy, boring and annoying.

 

I am not a persuasive person. I'm just not. It's why I've stayed far, far away from any commission-based or fundraising job.

 

Right---when you don't like yourself, you can't sell anything. I don't find that hard to believe. I do believe some people are better at selling than others, but most people 'sell' things without even realizing it.

[verhrzn]

Right---when you don't like yourself, you can't sell anything. I don't find that hard to believe. I do believe some people are better at selling than others, but most people 'sell' things without even realizing it.

 

... Liking yourself has nothing to do with it. I specified that even when I did like something (an activity, a product) I couldn't sell it, because I lack those "selling" skills. The inability to "sell" myself has absolutely nothing to do with whether I like myself or not, but the fact that I can't sell ANYTHING. (And I honestly don't want to; like I said, I see sales techniques as inherently manipulative.)

[zengirl]

... Liking yourself has nothing to do with it. I specified that even when I did like something (an activity, a product) I couldn't sell it, because I lack those "selling" skills. The inability to "sell" myself has absolutely nothing to do with whether I like myself or not, but the fact that I can't sell ANYTHING. (And I honestly don't want to; like I said, I see sales techniques as inherently manipulative.)

 

When you don't like yourself, you don't trust your opinions as much, which means even if you like something, you don't assume others will benefit from it in the same way. That's my point.

[verhrzn]

When you don't like yourself, you don't trust your opinions as much, which means even if you like something, you don't assume others will benefit from it in the same way. That's my point.

 

Or I just am not good at selling stuff. Seriously, why does it always have to come back to my self-esteem? Not everything in life is linked to self-esteem, it is not some super power. If I was bad at basketball, would you be saying it's because they don't like themselves??

 

It's possible that my lack of ability to sell things is linked back to my poor social skills (I am analytically minded, serious in tone, and are more likely to debate than agree on things), but lack of social skills doesn't always equal low self esteem.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Just because someone has options does not mean those options are good ones.

I have options...but am not into my options at all...so Im happily single =)

 

That's the difference between having NO food vs. food you don't like to eat.

[GoodOnPaper]

But, overweight or otherwise "unattractive" girls and women are justifiably (in his view) eliminated from being considered as "options" for him and men in general.

 

 

Right?

 

It's a very convoluted double standard upon which his entire world view seems to be perched.

 

So how do you break out of this double standard without either dating people you're not that attracted to or developing a neurosis about not being attractive enough for the people that you do want to date?

[fortyninethousand322]

So how do you break out of this double standard without either dating people you're not that attracted to or developing a neurosis about not being attractive enough for the people that you do want to date?

 

That's the eternal question no one has ever answered.

[verhrzn]

So how do you break out of this double standard without either dating people you're not that attracted to or developing a neurosis about not being attractive enough for the people that you do want to date?

 

You either push yourself to look past physical attractiveness (this does NOT mean "settling," it means going for girls who have other characteristics you like and putting a blind spot on their looks while you get to know them) OR suck it up, and accept that you're probably gonna go through a LOT of rejection.

 

If you can't get past looks, you have a few options. 1) Get more attractive yourself. 2) Realize you're going to need to cast a VERY wide net, so put up with a lot of rejections and push through it til ya find the girl that you're attracted to, who is attracted to you 3) Wait for the girl to magically appear without you making any effort whatsoever.

[Lonely Ronin]

You simply decide this is what I want and nothing is going to stop me from getting it.

 

this Rocky 2006-Get up... - YouTube , but adjusted for dating.

 

So how do you break out of this double standard without either dating people you're not that attracted to or developing a neurosis about not being attractive enough for the people that you do want to date?

[Lonely Ronin]

The rest of the quote.....

 

I read a lot of this on this forum.

 

[Mme. Chaucer]

So how do you break out of this double standard without either dating people you're not that attracted to or developing a neurosis about not being attractive enough for the people that you do want to date?

 

That's a different issue than a double standard.

 

The double standard comes into play when guys like sd repeat, over and over, that every woman has it easier than any guy because any girl can get some guy, regardless of who he is or how she feels about him / it, to screw her. And then equates this to her having "options" that he does not - but meanwhile, automatically "nexting" potential "options" for himself because they do not meet his criteria.

 

Simply put, in that world view, guys get to have criteria but girls don't. ANY guy who will screw her is an "option" for a girl, yet a fat old lady is not an option for this guy.

 

I don't believe that anyone must date people they're not attracted to. Waiting for one you're attracted to, who also likes you, though, might take a long time. But that is a viable choice. Choosing it doesn't qualify you as pitiable though.

 

Everybody knows that having a narrow range of requirements will certainly narrow your chances for success. But I have a narrow range. I accepted the consequences of being alone rather than not having what I feel I need in a relationship, and I felt fine about that.

[RedRobin]

As I've argued before, approaching men and approaching women aren't comparable. While I agree that women should shrug off initial rejection as well, and not take it personally, approaching men just isn't a winsome strategy for most women.

 

Because approaching is seen as the assertive/aggressive act, the "first move," women who engage in it run a very serious risk of being labeled either too aggressive (not feminine), or desperate. So approaching men can actually make you LESS attractive. The guy is probably reading you as "emasculating" him ("You're not enough of a man to approach me, so I'll do it for you.")

 

There are some women who are successful at approaching, but that's because I think they are 1) attractive enough physically that the guy was already going to approach them, and the girl just beat them to the punch and 2) exceptionally skilled at reading signals. I say "exceptionally" because men DON'T send out a lot of body signals (they are also way less talented at reading them than women.) That's usually WHY men approach, to indicate interest.

 

For me, personally, any time I've done the initial pursuing has ended very, very badly. Like "He's Just Not That Into You" says... if he isn't making the first move, he isn't interested.

 

well, I guess I'll take that chance. Because I know that I can be sweet and caring and girly too. If he wants to assume that I'm desperate, emasculating, or too aggressive, that's fine. Just means we aren't a match. Can't really be too concerned about it. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, which suits me just fine. There are plenty of men who aren't mine. The trick is to find each other... I figure that if both people are doing the work, then maybe, just maybe, that will happen a little quicker (?). One can only hope.

 

I've dumped and been dumped by men who chased me first.

 

There are no guarantees.

[somedude81]

I think it is more that women naturally look for--and respond to--strength in men. It is more attractive than abs, or height, or money.

 

On the flip side, a woman can be lacking confidence, because men love to be the KISA (knight in shining armor). But women are "allowed" less when it comes to the physical, so it isn't like women have it any easier.

Some women really do look for weakness in men, and they do all kinds of tests and games. And then some girls enjoy using weak guys.

 

Also women if women were not allowed less in the physical, then how come unattractive and or overweight women date and are in relationships?

Bingo!

 

I have zip, nada, zilch options. I'm on two dating sites, and haven't been messaged in over two months. Oh no, wait, I did have a 90 year old black guy message me to tell me he thought I was very pretty. Does that count?

 

Sorry, SD, but I am your dark mirror which proves women DON'T have it easier. I guarantee that if you were stuck in my body, you'd despair just as me. Comparably, I'd LOVE to be a guy. Women throw out a ton more non-verbal hints than men ("The Definitive Book of Body Language" by Allan and Barbara Pease") so after spotting the non-verbal signals, I'd just have to swagger up and impressive em with my wit and charm.

 

How AWESOME would that be... that by making the first move, I'm not only seen as confident (as opposed to desperate), but I could actually IMPROVE my chances. And I'd get the pick of the room to try for.... as opposed to being a girl, in which you have to accept what comes your way. So you may want that cute guy with the glasses over in the corner, but if he isn't approaching you, you're dead in the water.

 

Seriously, body switching, somebody make this happen!

I'm sorry V, but that made me chuckle.

From the few posts of yours I've read, it appears that women below your physical standards don't "count" as confidence builders for you.

 

It appears the only women sufficient for you to build your 'confidence' are ones that meet a high standard for physical attractiveness.

Women who meet my minimum physical standards are not the ones who are of a high standard.

 

I only need a girl who isn't obese and she has to at least be cute and no smaller than a B.

 

I figure 85% of girls 22-30 meet that description.

Not single and looking right now, but any time I WAS single and looking, I certainly didn't have a surefire candidate who wanted to date me and have a relationship (not sex). I don't even think a man (a non-desperate) knows he wants to have a relationship with you after just meeting you. I never kept orbiters, personally, so it wasn't like I was like, "Oh, ya, Dave wants to date me and Paul wants to date me."

So you've never had any acquaintances that wanted to date you?

 

Never had a guy at work that talked to you a little more than what was needed?

Well that's debatable, but I was talking about giving up on the complainer threads. Those really haven't worked for him.

Edutainment my good lad.

I'm really sorry to hear that.

 

Somedude, is that true? Do you treat people like that? I hope not

How do you expect me to respond to that?

 

Before you post, how does one treat somebody like they are not a person. And does that actually seem like something I would do.

The guys I want to date aren't the guys who want to date me.

 

My choices suck. Thus, I will remain single forever. With dogs.

AZ, I don't believe that.

 

You can't think of anybody who might want to date you?

From his POV, girls/ women are at fault for not considering all the "good guys" (I take exception to his use of the term, but for this purpose I'll accept it) who they might not find attractive as viable options. In HIS view, these guys do qualify as viable options for the women. Women are just too superficial and have it "too easy" to accept this, according to him.

 

But, overweight or otherwise "unattractive" girls and women are justifiably (in his view) eliminated from being considered as "options" for him and men in general.

 

 

Right?

 

It's a very convoluted double standard upon which his entire world view seems to be perched.

Why is it a double standard.

 

Would you date an obese man?

 

Also, as it's well known, men are visual. Personally, I consider the hourglass womanly figure to be something akin to art. Too much excess fat is just throwing paint at a masterpiece.