Sleep, or lack thereof

[Els]

This problem has been bugging me for years and years. I have seen several doctors and counselors, but all they have to offer me is the same ol', same ol' advice that I have read online and tried. None of it WORKS.

 

Basically, I can't sleep when I need to. It's like my body functions in terms of 25 hour days or something. Ideally, if I sleep whenever I am sleepy, my sleep time will go later and later each day. During hols, I pretty much cycle around the clock from 10pm to 8am, then there are a few rather crappy days when I try and push it down from 8am to 8pm quicker than usual, and then the cycle resets. There does seem to be a 'happy window' between 4-7am when it moves slower than usual though, and I can spend a couple of weeks sleeping at a regular time during that window.

 

During class time... I don't even know. My days were a mess of skipped sleep on some days, then making up for it on other days, and a whole lot of skipped classes which I justified by watching the lecture vids online.

 

As I said, I have tried literally everything, so if your advice is going to be 'take a warm cup of milk before bed', 'take a warm bath before bed', 'clear your head', 'keep the bed only for sleeping', 'avoid stimulating activities before bed', 'have sex before bed', 'keep the room dark and quiet', etc, please, save yourself the time.

 

Currently, the method I am trying now has the greatest success - every Sunday night, I knock myself out with a Zopiclone at midnight. So for the first few days of the week, I have a great and perfectly functional sleep time that allows me to attend classes and such. By Friday I am usually sleeping at 4am and skipping, and by Sunday I typically sleep by 6am. So on the next Sunday night, I take another zopiclone at midnight to reset. Rinse and repeat.

 

This has a catch in that nobody will prescribe regular zopiclone to a 25 year old with no diagnosis of mental disease. But I CAN'T reset my clock without it. If I try and sleep at the same time each night, I just end up lying awake for hours, repeatedly. Evidently that is not a very good way to live life, and not terribly productive. If I get up and do something when I am not sleepy, well, that works, but I still end up sleeping later that night. And later the next. Doesn't fix the problem.

 

I was advised to try sleep deprivation, in that I wake up at 8am every day regardless of what time I sleep. I suppose I just did not have the discipline or determination to do that. I'm not sure that the doctor who has suggested it, has actually tried surviving on 1 hour of sleep per day or less. Either I just sleep through the alarm, or I crash during the day. Or I force myself through it by keeping myself out all day. But regardless of what I do, by night time I am not sleepy again.

 

I think if I was allowed to keep a regular bedtime between 4-7am, I might actually be able to make myself sleep regularly. But clearly most professions will not allow that.

 

Anyone? :/

[threebyfate]

During hols, I pretty much cycle around the clock from 10pm to 8am, then there are a few rather crappy days when I try and push it down from 8am to 8pm quicker than usual, and then the cycle resets. There does seem to be a 'happy window' between 4-7am when it moves slower than usual though, and I can spend a couple of weeks sleeping at a regular time during that window.

No offense Elswyth but this paragraph makes no sense to me, particularly the bolded phrases. Can you plse rephrase the paragraph?

[Els]

Um, as in, the time at which I feel sleepy is at least one hour later than the last, each day. Hence the 10pm to 8am bit. When it hits 8am, I purposefully make my days 27-hour ones to get myself back to a nighttime bedtime ASAP (as suggested by doctors). After a few crappy days, I'm back to a 9pm bedtime.

 

However, I notice that this does not happen much when I sleep regularly between 4-7am (ie I can maintain a 4am bedtime for several weeks, but not a 12 midnight bedtime).

[threebyfate]

Is there a set time that you have to get up on the weekdays and also possibly a different time you have to wake up on the weekends?

 

Also, can you give an approximate amount of hours you sleep per day, per 10 day cycle? Don't average it out. Just the amount of sleep per individual day of the cycle.

[Els]

I don't really understand the first question. Set time self-imposed by myself, or set time absolutely required for job/school?

 

If I allow myself to sleep naturally (ie wake up when I feel refreshed), probably 7-8 hours a day.

[threebyfate]

What time do you have to get up to be at work or school to be on time?

 

Forget what works for you. How many hours do you sleep per day per the 10 day cycle?

[Els]

Currently, I don't force myself to get up if I lack sleep, so if I make a class, great, otherwise I just watch the lecture video online later.

 

So I do sleep 7-8 hours a day.

[pie2]

How are you with the caffeine intake? I know that stopping the coffee has helped me.

 

I saw on the news about how insomnia affects women more than men...maybe you need a second opinion from a dr. who specializes in women's health?

 

However, I do think the sleep deprivation method, painful as it is, could really help to reset the internal clock. Difficult, but worth it!

[Els]

Caffeine, I sometimes take immediately when I wake up, otherwise not at all. I do not touch tea or coffee within 12 hours of bedtime.

 

Classes depend entirely on the day, and range from 8am (which I never make) on some days to 2pm on others (which I usually make).

[threebyfate]

Have you tried to reduce the number of hours you sleep per day, as an example, down to 6 hours?

[Els]

Yes, I have tried various degrees of sleep deprivation, including 6 hrs.

[threebyfate]

No, I mean a consistent 6 hours for at least 20 days in a row, aka 2 sleep cycles.

 

The reason I mention this is when my sleep sched gets pushed out, is when I've had what my body considers too much sleep. As someone who usually sleeps around 5 - 5.5 hours per night, if I get 8 hours or more one night, the next couple of nights sleep times are pushed out until I can get myself back to the same cycle.

 

Right now I'm sleeping closer to 7 hours per night because of my pregnancy, both because I'm tired and because H. nags me until I do.

[Els]

Uhm, well, it's a bit hard to define exactly how many hours of sleep you get, unless you have an alarm clock that only starts timing when you fall asleep. So if I set myself to wake up 6 hours after I go to bed, the amount of sleep I get varies from 0-6 hours depending on when or if I actually fall asleep.

 

Also, I guess 'having' to wake up in 6 hours puts a sort of stress on me that makes it even harder to fall asleep. And even if I do get the 6 hours (rarely), it isn't a permanent solution, because I can't really function well on 6 hours.

[threebyfate]

Then stagger it. Start your cycle with 6 hours for the first 4 - 5 days, then increase to 7 hours for the latter 5. This way, you're reversing your current cycle that consists of front loading with sleep, then sleep deprivation for a couple of nights, then back to extended hours of sleeping.

 

Anyways, my guess is that you're oversleeping so you have to find a way to break out of the habit of needing 7 - 8 hours.

[Els]

Can you really put yourself into a habit of 'needing' less? I'm not so sure that needing 7-8 is wrong, as that is the amount that most doctors recommend.

 

The staggering sounds like a good idea, except that in the first 4-5 days I would be wandering around sleepily a lot of the time.

[betterdeal]

I saw a comedian this week who pointed out that in order to really relax, he needs to have something to do, and not do it. If he has nothing to do, he can't relax. Maybe that's what you need - to think of something you want to do then not do it and become curiously sleepy as you consider that 5 mile run you're sure you need to do before bedtime.

 

I find naps are the key to happiness for me. I sleep 4-6 hours at night, and nap 1-3 hours in the rest of the day, normally 1-3 naps, depending on mood.

 

The worst effects related to insomnia are due to the worrying you aren't getting enough sleep; not the not getting enough sleep. If you can change your thinking about insomnia, you may find it lessens.

 

Another thing that almost guarantees me a good night's sleep is hot yoga.

 

Then again, some people just sleep all weekend and sleep sod all through the week. I think the point is, don't worry, try out different things, accept your natural patterns, take comfort in the knowledge that you're in the company of some of the greatest minds in history in not sleeping a regular 8 hours and use the extra hours you are awake productively somehow.

[threebyfate]

Or you could sleep six one night and seven the next to catch up a bit, then back to six, etc. Whatever works for you.

 

Take a look at this study that confirms that 8 or more hours or less than 4 hours of sleep per night results in higher mortality rates. Anything in between 4 - 7.999 hours is fine. Use your discretion as to what works best for you.

 

Sleep less, live longer?

[Ariadne]

Yeah...

 

My son is just like that, every day he goes to bed a bit later.

 

I heard the phrase "I have to fix my hours" so many times by now.

 

If he needs to do some errands he waits till he "fixes his hours" so that he can do it.

 

Not sure what to tell you, it's just the way it is with him. Many times I wake up and he still hasn't gone to bed and then wakes up in the night.

 

It was terrible to get him to go to school in time also. He was always sleepy, sometimes having slept just two hours.

[xxoo]

Have you ever gone camping for an extended period? did you have the same sleep problems?

 

I'm wondering how much indoor living and artificial light (light bulbs, tv, computer screen) is affecting your circadian rhythm.

 

Most people don't have the option of sleeping until whenever, and catch up with a short nap in the afternoon, and then longer sleep on the weekends. If we could sleep as late as we like, probably more of us would find our sleep time progressing later and later.

[Els]

Have you ever gone camping for an extended period? did you have the same sleep problems?

 

I'm wondering how much indoor living and artificial light (light bulbs, tv, computer screen) is affecting your circadian rhythm.

 

Most people don't have the option of sleeping until whenever, and catch up with a short nap in the afternoon, and then longer sleep on the weekends. If we could sleep as late as we like, probably more of us would find our sleep time progressing later and later.

 

Yeah, I've gone camping before, but I did not sleep at all because there were several people around and snoring.

 

Hrm, so it's normal for everyone to just go about their daily activities with suboptimal concentration? I find I am just so much more efficient with sufficient sleep. Like, if I take the extra 2-3 hours in the morning to sleep, then in the remaining 6 hours I can do more than if I woke up 2-3 hours earlier and spent 9 hours working.

 

Sadly I doubt most future employers are going to believe that, even if it's true.

 

Or you could sleep six one night and seven the next to catch up a bit, then back to six, etc. Whatever works for you.

 

Take a look at this study that confirms that 8 or more hours or less than 4 hours of sleep per night results in higher mortality rates. Anything in between 4 - 7.999 hours is fine. Use your discretion as to what works best for you.

 

Sleep less, live longer?

 

Thanks, I've not seen that before. Curious that docs still advocate 8 hours.

 

I saw a comedian this week who pointed out that in order to really relax, he needs to have something to do, and not do it. If he has nothing to do, he can't relax. Maybe that's what you need - to think of something you want to do then not do it and become curiously sleepy as you consider that 5 mile run you're sure you need to do before bedtime.

 

Hey, I tried that for a while and it actually worked. However, my brain soon caught on to the fact that I was trying to cheat it, and I had to try harder to maintain the illusion. Naturally, trying too hard is the mortal enemy of sleep. I think that is where I snag up. Everything else in life, almost, the harder you try, the greater your chances of achieving it. Sleep is the only exception.

 

I find naps are the key to happiness for me. I sleep 4-6 hours at night, and nap 1-3 hours in the rest of the day, normally 1-3 naps, depending on mood.

 

The worst effects related to insomnia are due to the worrying you aren't getting enough sleep; not the not getting enough sleep. If you can change your thinking about insomnia, you may find it lessens.

 

Another thing that almost guarantees me a good night's sleep is hot yoga.

 

Then again, some people just sleep all weekend and sleep sod all through the week. I think the point is, don't worry, try out different things, accept your natural patterns, take comfort in the knowledge that you're in the company of some of the greatest minds in history in not sleeping a regular 8 hours and use the extra hours you are awake productively somehow.

 

Thanks. I just feel like crap after lack of sleep though. It's such a horrible feeling, I just really want to avoid it if at all possible.

[xxoo]

Hrm, so it's normal for everyone to just go about their daily activities with suboptimal concentration?

 

If they are parents of young children, almost certainly

[Els]

That's not something I'm aiming to be in the near future, xxoo.

[denise_xo]

I really think you should try to somehow discipline yourself into this:

 

I was advised to try sleep deprivation, in that I wake up at 8am every day regardless of what time I sleep.

 

I understand it's going to suck for a bit, but it might actually help you turn things around. I think this is how most people who have to be in an office at 8 make it work.

[Els]

Denise, I actually had to be at work at 8am for 6 months before. It really did not work, for the entire 6 months I probably got 10 hours of sleep a week.

 

That was a major catalyst in my decision to switch career paths.

[denise_xo]

Denise, I actually had to be at work at 8am for 6 months before. It really did not work, for the entire 6 months I probably got 10 hours of sleep a week.

 

That was a major catalyst in my decision to switch career paths.

 

Oh dear. In that case, I guess you just have to find practical solutions to work around it...