Its been a while...MIno

[whichwayisup]

It seems he hasn't taken any time to work on himself, to better himself. This is why things aren't great. You live together, live life together, but he is just going through the motions of it and it seems like he's not embracing it like you are..

 

He has shi.tty communication skills. That ain't gonna change, he was like that while married and he was like that during your A and now he's still like that after his D and living with you. Unless he goes to counselling and fixes/learns how to become a better communicator and listener, this is the way it is! "Talking" sets him off and instead of it being a positive thing, he automatically shuts down and has a negative reaction.

 

And yes, there was unncessary drama and pain due to you two living together too soon.. A mistake by both of you. He really should have had his own place to make the transition easier for everybody - But that didn't happen and now the consquence of that is, on some level (ask him?) if he sees you as the OW or does he see you as an equal .. His partner, someone who has his back, no matter what. Just seems like he's drawn a line in the sand and he gets to call the shots/make final decisions.

 

You two went from 'affair' to 'couple' without allowing the A dynamic to die.

[bentnotbroken]

Thats not true... Looking back at myself, I have done some stupid Sh*T when i was younger... really... and now I have to say I have learned from them... So please, its not so black and white like you may want to think. People do change.. thats what aging is all about.

 

 

The implication here is that as people age they change for the better. We all know that isn't always the case. But one will see what they desire to see.

[woinlove]

But after we talked about that, I brought up the marriage stuff. and thats were I went into my shell. He came back and said, Mino, not now does not mean never, it means we are not ready... we have had a very rough year, I dont want to go thru a D again, so lets just take this slow and it will come naturally... well thats great, What he forgets is that I had already waited 6 years for him to get the courage to leave, and then another 1 for his D. Its like he is on square one, and I am on square 7.... The rough year is his fault. He is the one who went into a shell during his proccess thru the D. The C said people g thru all these emotions and stages when going thru a D. The mourning, the failure, the guilt...etc. But I was there thru it all and felt invisable. These were really are only agruments when we did fight. One topic, his issues... Had I not said anything, there would be no fighting. And that is what he is not getting... Again, if I had know what I know now, he would be living in his own place till he was over all his stages and ready for a new R. But its to late for that now, I chose to hang in there with him thru his process.

 

I understand your pain and frustration after 7 years or more. But I can also see his point. Those 6 years he was married and having a new baby with his wife. So whatever you shared during those years, it is not the same as having an exclusive R which would likely have matured to building a life together or ending things within a 6 year period. In fact, when one factors in his M and new baby and the deception involved, it is not clear how those years should count in establishing you own R together. Then there is the upheaval of a divorce after many years of marriage and a child together. Again, that is something he had to go through and it is not clear how that time goes toward building the R that will sustain a fulfilling future R for you two. If it counts positively, it means he spent a lot of that time working on himself. If he didn't, there could still be a lot of work for him to do before he can sustain a mutually fulfilling R over the longer term.

 

If you are committed to doing whatever you can to spend a future with this man, I would suggest viewing it as a journey, including sharing some more years of him working on himself, sorting out a good co-parenting routine that evolves into one which you share. I would take his words seriously as he seems to be saying he is not ready to be the kind of man who can make a serious long-term commitment, but he might get there and you could share his journey to there, although there are no guarantees he will make it and sharing it will require him having the alone time, the time with a counsellor, etc., that allows him to make the changes needed to be able to commit in a meaningful way. At least that is my read of things from your posts.

 

My own reaction would be to leave as I think 7 years was already enough to spend with a broken man who can't commit if you want a commitment. However, if you feel you can be happy sharing his journey, knowing it still might not pan out in any commitment, then your decision will differ from mine.

Edited March 8, 2012 by woinlove

[whichwayisup]

If you are committed to doing whatever you can to spend a future with this man, I would suggest viewing it as a journey, including sharing some more years of him working on himself, sorting out a good co-parenting routine that evolves into one which you share. I would take his words seriously as he seems to be saying he is not ready to be the kind of man who can make a serious long-term commitment, but he might get there and you could share his journey to there, although there are no guarantees he will make it and sharing it will require him having the alone time, the time with a counsellor, etc., that allows him to make the changes needed to be able to commit in a meaningful way. At least that is my read of things from your posts.

 

Excellent point.

 

Mino, make a decision now. For a full year, don't mention 'marriage or getting married'. Just go with the flow and enjoy life. Have ONE converation soon about this, ask him to do counselling so he can sort himself out (because he never did have 'alone' time after his marriage ended) and have an outlet to talk to someone who is objective - This way you aren't his T and he gets to handle the process IN counselling. Hope this makes sense.

 

If in a year, things are the same as they are now, then you need to make a choice to either stay and accept things as they are, or walk away.

 

He may never want to get married again (which is odd seeing as he said he never loved his wife to begin with and he settled, one would think he has a chance at real love, a new life with someone else, he should be JUMPING at this opportunity to start over and be happy - But instead he's at a stand still and things are complicated) and this is something you need to realize and maybe accept.

[alexandria35]

No age does not automatically mean wisdom, but pain, losing everything, paying out the nose Will make you smarter. No your right , I dont have the complete life I want. But in life, I dont think anybody ever gets the whole pie... I think we are on a good road right now. On a daily basis our life is smoothing out from a very rocky road. I just brought up the marriage stuff yesterday for the first time... I have no problem starting over at 50, trust me, if you ben thru a painful A, and survived, I think I can survive anything. ; ) My age does have something to do with the marriage wish. I have never been married, I dont want to date anymore. I do love my Guy very much, and i want to build a future with him. I rather know now if he had no intentions of marrying.

 

Well if marriage is your goal then you definitely need to find out what is holding him up. Better to be starting over at 50 than at 60 right? You've waited 8 years already and I don't blame you for not wanting to let another 8 years slip by, especially if after 8 more years he still doesn't want to commit to you.

 

About the "he's changed because he's older" thing. I cut people in their twenties a lot of slack, because peoples brains really do reach maturity at different ages. Some people may have a fully formed adult brain at the age of 20 while some people may be late twenties or a little older before they fully mature. However if someone reaches the age of 40 and they can still do not function as a mature rational adult I tend to believe that something has gone askew with the whole process and things are probably not going to change much going forward. He was 49 when you first posted here, still acting selfish, childish, and immature. Telling lies and trying to have it all. Now in the past couple of years he has magically grown up and become an adult? Maybe. Anything is possible.

 

Also when I was younger I used to believe that people in thier late 40's, 50's and 60's didn't have the same relationship issues that younger people had because..well they're old, and tired...lol. I thought they would just settle down and make they're life with the one their with because they don't have the energy to chase skirts and start new relationships. Now that I'm getting closer to 50 I am amazed by how many men out there in their 50's and 60's never settled down and they never want to. I met an older couple a few years ago. He was early 60's, she early 50's. They had been living together for a couple of years but had an open relationship. They looked like any other normal older couple except they both like to play with other people. He got around more than her and while it was clear he was very fond of her and looked out for her he was also very upfront about their relationship not being serious or permanent. I had a hard time getting my head around that. She was an attractive women, still had a great figure, good housekeeper, amazing cook, funny and entertaining. How could a man in his 60's and facing old age not want to have what he had on a permanent basis? I still don't understand it, I just know some people never get it out of their system. They love the chase, the passion, and the challenge of getting someone new. It invigorates them and makes them feel more alive. You may be content with quiet evenings at home, cooking dinner and watching movies together (sounds great to me) but are you positive that he is? He was a practiced phillanderer for a good number of years. That can be a hard habit to entirely give up.

[Emme]

Its not been easy road, and we are still not quiet were I want to be.

 

I want you to put more emphesis on the word WE/US versus I. You have been having an affair with this man for 6 years. You have had this man as your love for 2 years. There is a transition that needs to take place. Its not the time table that you hoped for but everything in due time will be reality. If this man loves you he will commit when he is ready to commit. He does not want to get married now and that is his choice. He's just ended a part of his life and just beginning a fresh start with you. Enjoy the honeymoon period of your relationship. Don't be in a rush to get a ring because it doesn't mean anything if he doesn't love you.

 

 

 

His child still does not come to our home. She is almost 6. This has been very painful, because I am still excluded. He is very active in coparenting, and his ex feels he need to be engaged or married before intergrating the child. This has caused a bit of arguements from me... feeling left out many times. It got to the point where I asked him to move several months ago... because I feel he still has this seperate life and has not intergrated he life completely into mine .

 

Get over it. If his child is still not a part of your life what you have to do is be an adult. Know that not everything has to go your way. This is not about you. Don't just think about me, myself, and I. That little girl is experiencing a change in her life that she has to now get accustomed to. Not only her, her mother. Why would you argue with this man about his child who's lost her father. You wanted this man and now he has uprooted himself to be with you. This child has to learn to cope without her father. That is not easy for a 6 year old. You on the other hand are a grown adult. Have some compassion and understanding. Everything can't be about what you want. There is a child in the picture and you are not a child.

 

If the ex doesn't want her child around you that is her choice. As of now you are still just some woman he's f*cking. When or if you become engaged/married then you are a member of the family. His ex is correct. You don't subject a child to an environment that's not stable. This child is now coping with daddy being gone. Why add daddy's girlfriend to list. Remember back when you were 6 years old and how you would feel.

 

 

 

I would not have let him move in if I thought I was only going to live with him. So his response today was No, I dont want to marry you NOW... We have had a rough year ( his fault, because he was dealing with his D) He says he does want to marry me in the future... So now Im pissed.... I feel mislead. I have waited 6 years for him in the A, now almost another 2 living with him... What would you advise me at this point? He says he is gunshy! Hell he is the one who had the affair! I dont get it... So he says he will slowly bring his child over, but I feel im in limbo again, with this waiting game... Now im just tired.

 

 

Your first mistake was making him move in. You wanted him so bad you jumped at the chance without reading the map first. Don't blame him for anything, blame yourself.

 

Please ask your roommate to leave. At this point you are helping him "subsidize" his bills. If you don't want to do that anymore ask him to leave. You are a grown woman, don't be scared. Have a sit down and a nice conversation about the road this relationship is taking. If you are truly not happy with the way things are, change it. If you are content... don't rock the boat.

 

I will advise you at this point to think about what you are doing before your emotions take over. I see a lot a of pointing fingers in your post. Not one finger is being pointed at yourself. Take and own your part in all this. Don't make this transition harder for him and/or his child than it has to be. I don't know your story but what did you loose in all this. It seems you've gained. You've played the waiting game before and that means you have experience. You are more than qualified. Continue waiting if you can for things to settle. If at any time you feel you've waited long enough and you truly feel there is no future, end it.

[Mino]

Wow, Thank you all, for such great replys... I have hardly had any sleep last night trying to wrap my head around all this, and you guys have given me alot of insights of what might be going on... I think I will take a few days and absorb all this, think about what I really want and need. Then I will have another talk with him. I think couseling may be a way to go. Especially since things have been more relaxed. I want truth.. thats all. If I feel he wont move forwards, i will walk away again.. I thank all of you for your support. You have been all so kind and honest. i knew that I could come with this issue to you guys. Someone mentioned going to the "marriage board" no Thanks, I was an OW, and my online friends who supported and advised me, who were there for me thru all the hard times are HERE. Since the beginiing this has been slow moving, but it moved, or we wouldnt be were we are today... so I do know its in his heart. He needs to feel safe too. Is he scared, ya someone paying 6000 a month support, I guess thats normal in a way... But there are issues that are hidden in the closet, that needs to be addressed. This is were I differ from his ex, I will not be quiete, I have a voice and I intend to keep using it. I will keep you updated on the outcome... :) Thanks again guys!!!

[mercy]

I want truth.. thats all.

 

Don't we all, lass, don't we all.

[MissBee]

Well if marriage is your goal then you definitely need to find out what is holding him up. Better to be starting over at 50 than at 60 right? You've waited 8 years already and I don't blame you for not wanting to let another 8 years slip by, especially if after 8 more years he still doesn't want to commit to you.

 

About the "he's changed because he's older" thing. I cut people in their twenties a lot of slack, because peoples brains really do reach maturity at different ages. Some people may have a fully formed adult brain at the age of 20 while some people may be late twenties or a little older before they fully mature. However if someone reaches the age of 40 and they can still do not function as a mature rational adult I tend to believe that something has gone askew with the whole process and things are probably not going to change much going forward. He was 49 when you first posted here, still acting selfish, childish, and immature. Telling lies and trying to have it all. Now in the past couple of years he has magically grown up and become an adult? Maybe. Anything is possible.

 

Also when I was younger I used to believe that people in thier late 40's, 50's and 60's didn't have the same relationship issues that younger people had because..well they're old, and tired...lol. I thought they would just settle down and make they're life with the one their with because they don't have the energy to chase skirts and start new relationships. Now that I'm getting closer to 50 I am amazed by how many men out there in their 50's and 60's never settled down and they never want to. I met an older couple a few years ago. He was early 60's, she early 50's. They had been living together for a couple of years but had an open relationship. They looked like any other normal older couple except they both like to play with other people. He got around more than her and while it was clear he was very fond of her and looked out for her he was also very upfront about their relationship not being serious or permanent. I had a hard time getting my head around that. She was an attractive women, still had a great figure, good housekeeper, amazing cook, funny and entertaining. How could a man in his 60's and facing old age not want to have what he had on a permanent basis? I still don't understand it, I just know some people never get it out of their system. They love the chase, the passion, and the challenge of getting someone new. It invigorates them and makes them feel more alive. You may be content with quiet evenings at home, cooking dinner and watching movies together (sounds great to me) but are you positive that he is? He was a practiced phillanderer for a good number of years. That can be a hard habit to entirely give up.

 

Insightful post as usual!

 

Some very salient points.

 

Reminds me of how some OW have cited that MM are somehow better prospects than single men because what, they are "pre-approved" or those complaining about having to be with MM because they are "too old" and no one else wants them. Nonsense. Men of all ages and stages are single and looking or single and not looking or married and philandering. Women in their twenties claim not to be able to find good men and so do women in their 40s....so clearly, something is askew. But I digress....the point is, one does not automatically get tired and become faithful or get over commitment issues with age and it is very problematic to assume that. My bestfriend has an aunt who is 10 years old! That's because her grandfather, at 69 was still out chasing skirts! We make CHOICES throughout our lives that lead to change. A young person has to do this and time helps and older people too. But no one just wakes up on a specific birthday and changes automatically without any effort on their part.

 

The bottom line is.....it's not whether or not someone can theoretically change...it is about HAVE THEY in actuality? Clearly this man has not, as I doubt we'd be discussing it, had his actions come off to the OP as such. I think Mino has invested a lot in this situation so ofcourse doesn't want to come up empty handing so is hoping that he infact has changed, but she herself cannot seem to point to any sets of substantial evidence to show how exactly he has changed and how their relationship is different and how is he not the same noncommittal man as he was before.

Edited March 8, 2012 by MissBee

[NoIDidn't]

I want you to put more emphesis on the word WE/US versus I. You have been having an affair with this man for 6 years. You have had this man as your love for 2 years. There is a transition that needs to take place. Its not the time table that you hoped for but everything in due time will be reality. If this man loves you he will commit when he is ready to commit. He does not want to get married now and that is his choice. He's just ended a part of his life and just beginning a fresh start with you. Enjoy the honeymoon period of your relationship. Don't be in a rush to get a ring because it doesn't mean anything if he doesn't love you.

 

 

 

 

 

Get over it. If his child is still not a part of your life what you have to do is be an adult. Know that not everything has to go your way. This is not about you. Don't just think about me, myself, and I. That little girl is experiencing a change in her life that she has to now get accustomed to. Not only her, her mother. Why would you argue with this man about his child who's lost her father. You wanted this man and now he has uprooted himself to be with you. This child has to learn to cope without her father. That is not easy for a 6 year old. You on the other hand are a grown adult. Have some compassion and understanding. Everything can't be about what you want. There is a child in the picture and you are not a child.

 

If the ex doesn't want her child around you that is her choice. As of now you are still just some woman he's f*cking. When or if you become engaged/married then you are a member of the family. His ex is correct. You don't subject a child to an environment that's not stable. This child is now coping with daddy being gone. Why add daddy's girlfriend to list. Remember back when you were 6 years old and how you would feel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your first mistake was making him move in. You wanted him so bad you jumped at the chance without reading the map first. Don't blame him for anything, blame yourself.

 

Please ask your roommate to leave. At this point you are helping him "subsidize" his bills. If you don't want to do that anymore ask him to leave. You are a grown woman, don't be scared. Have a sit down and a nice conversation about the road this relationship is taking. If you are truly not happy with the way things are, change it. If you are content... don't rock the boat.

 

I will advise you at this point to think about what you are doing before your emotions take over. I see a lot a of pointing fingers in your post. Not one finger is being pointed at yourself. Take and own your part in all this. Don't make this transition harder for him and/or his child than it has to be. I don't know your story but what did you loose in all this. It seems you've gained. You've played the waiting game before and that means you have experience. You are more than qualified. Continue waiting if you can for things to settle. If at any time you feel you've waited long enough and you truly feel there is no future, end it.

 

Hi Mino! Missed you! I'm sorry you're still on this merry-go-round with him. I'm actually quite surprised that you are still with him with all the back and forth and the "I'm definitely over him" type statements made in the past. I would definitely call all those things DRAMA. Believe me, it is drama that I would certainly not have engaged in.

 

But, I think Emme is right. A relationship is as much a WE thing as an I thing. I've noticed that people in affairs do tend to talk as ME and I a lot. Time to change that mode of thinking if you want to see this relationship turn.

 

Regarding his daughter. Another "get over it" here. If I were his W, I wouldn't want my daughter to meet you any time soon either. Either you see this as a journey or a destination. You can't force yourself on his daughter or on him to let you see his daughter. You get to have HIM not his daughter. Especially as you're not married at the moment.

 

I don't blame him for not wanting to get married right now. He probably said what he needed to say to keep you in the game until he managed to get a divorce. And I don't say any of this as a personal slight against you. He only recently got divorced. And I wouldn't be surprised if he was honest with you and tells you that he's not really interested in being married again. Its the way it goes with some of us married folks. Its too much to have another marriage not work out and have to go through the legal process of divorce again. Like you said, he's getting older. I'm sure he wants to have some of his retirement savings for his actual retirement and not for another lawyer.

 

I say, enjoy what you have or get out with fond memories of what was.