"The Longest I would Wait for an Engagement is..."

[brokenTom]

I've never had a huge desire to get married. But if I do I'd like to wait a minimum of a few years, especially if it's something we both feel is likely. The reason is simple: I don't want to be with someone who is so impatient and I don't want to do it for the wrong reasons.

 

My story: I felt my recent ex was pressuring me into moving/marriage/kids because of pressure on her from society and because she didn't want to be lonely the rest of her life. She only wanted these things to keep her company and as a distraction because she was admittingly a depressed person not happy with herself. I wanted to provide her happiness with marriage but felt it was not for the right reasons and she would never be truly happy because she had no inner peace. The relationship lasted over 3 years and got a point where she started accusing me of seemingly random stuff so we broke up.

 

If you can't talk openly about this and have trust then it probably is a waste of time for both of you. But remember everyone needs different amounts of time and space, don't be critical if the person you love doesn't fit into a convenient social norm.

 

IMO: If you truly love a person then you'd be patient but always make the attempt to try and understand where they are coming from. If one of you is having trouble talking about it then maybe consider getting outside help.

[RiverRunning]

IMO, the "if you truly love a person" has limits. I have seen people dole out that advice to women who have been waiting 5+, 10+, 15+ years. What that statement really seems to mean is, "You are supposed to sacrifice what you want, letting your ovaries and uterus dry out, while he plays with your heart and decides what he wants." If he truly loved her, wouldn't he - after a few years - give a solid answer and take action accordingly? Wouldn't he just say, "Sorry, it's not happening," or, "I would like it if we married within two years?" I'm not speaking directly to the OP, but I am talking about the "If you truly love a person..." mantra that I see passed around so irresponsibly and frequently.

 

After a few years, no one is being impatient. I don't think the OP is being impatient either. I do think maybe she's missing some big signs that he's really going to move forward. She's got a few years left before she's starting to get into real biological clock mode but I don't think she's wrong for wanting to avoid dating for another year or two or more if she's just going to be let down. Those are valuable years in which she could be dating someone else, someone else who might be just as good a match and be ready to commit within that reasonable timeframe too.

[CupcakeCrisis]

I would like to say that I have my own life: I have my own friends (we go out together, alone, at least once or twice a week), my family, I have a job and I have my own hobbies. I pay my own bills and contribute to the household. I don't sit and wait in anticipation for him to get home from work, nor do I feel every single night of his life has to hinge around what I'm doing. I couldn't stand being that closely tied to someone. He's actually the one who's more in danger as far as me being too big of a facet in his life - he doesn't really talk to any of his friends anymore and hangs out mostly with friends he met through me.

 

Him starting college made me nervous about other developments - like him never proposing, the two of us never getting married, and never moving out of our cramped apartment - simply because he is such a big procrastinator. My thought process was: "Wow, he can really get things moving for school, but when it comes to any area of his life, there is always an excuse in store." He is often the type to use the, "But I'm in school/looking for a house" line to put off ever doing anything else. So, it's not always a conduit by which a man is looking to increase being seen as marriageable...sometimes it's a convenient excuse to avoid going any further because he's "too busy."

 

I am surprised because beyond just 'favoriting' houses he liked on a real estate site (which I told him accomplishes very, very little if that's all he's going to do, as those houses will be purchased and he'll just continue the process indefinitely), We drove around yesterday looking at some of the houses we both liked. It made me feel a little more secure but I was annoyed when he told me that was all he planned to do. It just felt like a waste. If you drive around and like the houses, what's the point in only doing that?

 

I was surprised, then, when we got home and he called and e-mailed a few real estate agents to ask more about the houses and to go look at them. After MONTHS of this nonsense of just looking online (our lease is up in August. We have FOUR MONTHS to find a house after knowing well in advance that he wanted to look and we both had plenty of time to look).

 

He did surprise me because while we were out driving one day, he suggested I should go and get my finger sized, so we did.

 

I am feeling much more secure now that he's taking CONCRETE steps toward making all of these things a reality. After nearly four years together, it is incredibly infuriating to see someone talk the talk but never walk the walk. I'm one of those people who follows my words: if I say I will do something, it will happen more than 90% of the time (I'm only human!). I don't take kindly to being lied to, especially by a significant other, who says he is 'looking' for a house...but not really, as he apparently intended for so long to never take it further than just looking at pictures online.

 

If he's going to keep it up and things will progress in a natural way - if we are soon going to start looking at houses, he will begin discussing getting engaged and married more seriously - I'm fine with that. But the progression I've seen needs to continue to develop. If in 3 months he is still hemhawing around about going to look at houses, I'm gone. If in 6 months our relationship hasn't progressed beyond this point, I am gone. I'm a patient person but I don't have forever to wait on a 'maybe, maybe not...'

 

I understand my biological clock isn't beating, but that's still not an excuse to waste my time because I have more time to waste until it's time to pop out kids.

[shorty7]

Given your most recent response, I think it's wise you're taking steps necessary to nudge the relationship further. However, I'm not really convinced he's the right fit for you in the way that you talk about him in your most recent post.

 

Are you sure you want to marry him, or do you want the dress and the party before you hit your 30's?

 

(Sorry for being crass/superficial, but as I'm a total stranger, some of these questions are what I've asked myself when I went through some of the same feelings as you)

 

To answer my own question, I've spent a week with him in his apartment last week and confronted him that when ever we talk of any advancements in our relationship that I'm the initiator. How everything he talks of in future terms are all hypothetical, saying the things he wants in conditional format (i.e., if we can afford it, if I had a job there where he is, etc.). I told him that I was sick of his "vagueness" in talking of our future terms because I can't get any more straight answers from giving him open-ended questions. I need him to let me know that it's him that wants me to move in, just as much as I do. I need to know that our decisions on doing anything together is mutual and that effort has been expended equally. I told him it's not FAIR that he DIDN'T ask me to move in with him and still saying that the reason we can't be together is because I won't find a job in a country I'd otherwise have no business staying in. After that argument, he finally *officially* asked me to move in with him, and we've discussed that an engagement is likely to follow. I expressed to him that as long as he's established the rule about wanting the engagement to be initiated by him, he needs to consider that everything relative to "advancement" in our relationship cannot be assumed.

 

Why is it that getting any sort of commitment from guys we want always like pulling molars? (Rhetorical question, but if anyone wants to give a straight up answer, it'd be greatly appreciated)

 

Anyways, I hope my personal story hasn't thrown off a tangent too far off on the topic. You're obviously put together an extensive blueprint of how you want your relationship to work out, and if the ring doesn't come along in 6 months or so, I'd agree it's best you want to make a clean break if you can. I've certainly gotten down that path and I've come to conclusion that I want the commitment, the engagement, the marriage, kids, etc., but I've also recognize I want all those things because it's with him and not anyone else.

 

From the way you described your partner, CC, I'm not convinced he's clear on what he wants from his relationship with you. But I'm sure that once those "wants" on both sides are clearly visible between you two, it'll be a little more clearer whether it's just a matter of waiting for him to be in the right condition to get you that ring, or if there are more whishywashy "conditional variables" in the way. Only you two in the relationship can determine if that's really a usable excuse or not.

[shorty7]

To be fair though, "finishing school" is a valid excuse for not getting married yet because marital status can affect financial aid. I do remember you saying something about his company / job supporting the schooling, but like I said before, men like to put all their ducks in a row, one duckie at a time.

 

So to be fair to him, if having the house and finishing school is one of those ducks before the ring, it's likely that hasn't changed in his mindset. I'm one of those people who abandoned academic achievement and then went back later in life to school to get my Bachelor's, so I can certainly appreciate that value of having something of self-value prior to a commitment of life with another person.

 

It takes two strong people to make it a successful relationship coming together, so if you CC think that you're wasting your time waiting around on him, then that's I think another issue that needs to be addressed.

 

Best of luck to you. Hope whatever unravels, that it would lead to your happiness.

[CupcakeCrisis]

To be honest, I'm a little tired of the "Are you sure you just don't want a dress and a party?" type questions. This is common sense (although my understanding is that it's 'not so common'). I understand the intentions are good but it's getting tired.

 

I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread that I would elope and skip the party altogether - in fact, that's my preference. He's the one who wants the party. I don't give two craps about the wedding. I want the deeper commitment of a marriage. I simply wouldn't consider having a family outside of a marriage and long-term I don't see the point of going about all the other legal avenues to give me the same rights as a wife when we could just get married.

 

I'm very frustrated with how things have progressed and developed. I love him and I care about him but I'm tired of just sitting on my hands, staring at the walls, talking about 'someday.' This was fine a few years ago. But after this amount of time I'm starting to want some concrete proof that things are going to get moving. My trust in him is shaken just because he procrastinates so much - I mentioned in my last post that it's important to me that people stick to what they say they're going to do. I can understand unforeseen circumstances, but come on!

 

And for clarification: we have both finished our bachelor's degrees. He works for a university and the degree is actually not necessary for him to keep his job or to get promoted in his current line of work. The university flat-out offers all of its employees free tuition. He's decided to go for a master's degree in business administration in the belief that it could someday help him advance into a managerial position. But a master's degree is another 4 to 6 years of part-time schooling - frankly, no one is worth that kind of wait to me.

 

After that, he wants to pursue another bachelor's degree. Did I also mention that he alone earns about 2 - 3 times what the average family in our area earns? He isn't receiving financial aid at all nor will he ever need any government assistance as long as he's working at the university. He pays for his books for classes, and that's it.

 

I could understand entirely if he were finishing his bachelor's degree or if his job weren't that spectacular, but that's simply not the case. If it were, my patience would be infinite. But the longer this whole thing drags out and we take teeny-tiny baby steps (which I do appreciate...it's still better than nothing), I am worried about all of this.

 

In any case, I try to just focus on the fact that I'll either be single or engaged later this year, and beyond that there is little that I can do.

 

Everybody, thanks for your help. You're all very smart and put-together people.

[SJC2008]

To women who want to get married: DON'T LIVE TOGETHER OUT OF WEDLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

99.9999999999% of he won't propose threads have 1 thing in common. Take a wild guess what it is.

Edited April 14, 2012 by SJC2008
correction

[wildgeese]

To women who want to get married: DON'T LIVE TOGETHER OUT OF WEDLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

99.9999999999% of he won't propose threads have 1 thing in common. Take a wild guess what it is.

 

Sorry, but I don't buy this outdated form of thinking. There have been recent studies debunking this very theory. And making judgments based on people complaining in online forums is a little silly, not to mention skewed.

[jphcbpa]

take your time. i got married at 35. there is not hurry

[RiverRunning]

Sorry, but I don't buy this outdated form of thinking. There have been recent studies debunking this very theory. And making judgments based on people complaining in online forums is a little silly, not to mention skewed.

 

I was going to say something similar. Most of the studies that say that couples who live together won't get married are from the '70s and '80s. In fact, more and more couples are living together before marriage. I think I saw a statistic suggesting that for a woman moving in with a partner for the first time, there's something like a 65 - 70% chance she'll eventually marry him? I think that's within 5 years of moving in together. I read this very recently.

 

Most of the sites and articles I see citing that a person is less likely to get married after living together come from studies pre-dating the early 90s.

 

It's possible that living together first IMPEDES the speed at which a couple will get married (because the old 2-step system of getting engaged, then married is now preceded by the new first step: living together). But I don't think it makes it less likely that they will marry. For while there are women who will stay and moan and groan indefinitely, there are plenty of others (like our OP here) who claim that they will take off after a certain period of time.

 

If a guy knows he has a good thing and he's not likely to get any other opportunities (or none as good), he will eventually commit.

[CupcakeCrisis]

Another month's gone by and nothing. We still haven't gone to look at any houses. He always has an excuse ready when it's time to call a realtor about looking. He made the initial effort of touching base with some realtors, but other than that, barely talks about going to look at houses.

 

We're now down to little more than 3 months before our lease is up at our apartment. While he once mentioned that he couldn't imagine staying beyond the end of our lease, now he is saying, "Well, we can always go month-to-month at our apartment until we find a place, even if it will cost more."

 

He is the one who is pre-approved for the mortgage. For that reason, I don't feel comfortable contacting realtors when I won't be the one buying. I'd feel I'm wasting their time.

 

The fact that he's now seriously entertaining going month-to-month for the apartment is once again making me think that he's all talk and no action. Well, I was already thinking that. It's just adding to the list of evidence.

 

Nothing on the engagement front, at all. No discussion of it. He hasn't said one word about the future in...well, a long time now.

 

Yes, I get that I'm not yet 30 or 35 years old, but comments along those lines are missing the point: sure, I have time. What I don't have is much in the way of comfort that we will someday get married. Yes, it's much better to lose 4 or 5 years when you're younger than it is when you're older and you'd like to settle down and have a family. But the fact that one is worse than the other doesn't mean that wasting 4 or 5 years when you're young is a good thing.

 

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy our time together for the most part. But I'm serious about this. But if this keeps progressing, and to me it's a warning sign when we're closing in on four years and our relationship is still the way it is, I could well be 26, 27, or 28 and find myself single again. No, it's not the end of the world. But that doesn't mean I should date someone indefinitely, especially when that man is closing in on 30 himself.

 

I would even be satisfied with a longer engagement (up to 2 years). At least that's a step in the right direction. As it is now, I'll even be worried when we get engaged that we'll never manage to get a date set. Then it'll be months, if not years, of wondering when we'll get serious about getting married.

 

My patience is getting exhausted. Every day is starting to become hellish with this in the back, or often forefront, of my mind. I don't enjoy the relationship like I used to. I find myself growing resentful and angry toward him, as I see no reason that we're delaying - other than an uncertainty that he refuses to admit.

 

There have been times when he's moved quickly toward something else he wants. I'm starting to believe that he doesn't actually want marriage, a house, or anything else that shrieks 'commitment' - maybe he's just telling me what I want to hear. But no matter how many conversations come up related to this whole topic, he insists it's what he truly wants.

 

As they say though, look to someone's actions...I can manage to deal with these feelings maybe for a few more months, but after that I need to leave for my own mental well-being. We've been dating and living together long enough...trial period is over.

 

I know for plenty of folks, living together before marriage works beautifully. Next time, I'd like to be engaged with a date set before I ever move in with a man. I still believe that, besides the engagement part, we did everything 'right' when we decided to move in together - explaining our expectations, how we would handle living together, bills, chores, etc. However, our initial plan to only live together for a year, then get engaged or move on, is now in the rearview mirror. We are both guilty for that, but now I don't believe we will ever get on the road toward marriage again.

 

We're in limbo. There's been no discussion about a further 'timeline.' He will tell me on the one hand, as he's now been telling me for two years, "in 2 years I'd like for us to already be married and maybe start trying for a family." Every then and again, he might mention things related to that. But I really have no idea what his timeline is anymore, to be honest.

 

I guess at some point I'll have to once again rear up the wedding conversations and try to drag a rough timeline out of him. After all of this time, I think I really deserve to know where this relationship is going. I'm tired of hanging in limbo.

[westrock]

We're in limbo. There's been no discussion about a further 'timeline.' He will tell me on the one hand, as he's now been telling me for two years, "in 2 years I'd like for us to already be married and maybe start trying for a family." Every then and again, he might mention things related to that. But I really have no idea what his timeline is anymore, to be honest.

 

I guess at some point I'll have to once again rear up the wedding conversations and try to drag a rough timeline out of him. After all of this time, I think I really deserve to know where this relationship is going. I'm tired of hanging in limbo.

 

Stop letting him drag his feet and stop dragging your feet on this. Trying to "drag a rough timeline out of him" will get you nowhere.

 

You need to take 1/2 of the responsiblity for letting this drag on so long. Bring the issue front and center and don't let it go until you have a clear answer as to where things are heading.

 

He is not taking you seriously. He is unable or unwilling to make a decision and he keeps coming up with new things so he can avoid making the decision, and you keep buying into his excuses. He's already told you after this degree he wants to go for another degree. What then?

 

You have to step up and find out where this relationship is heading because he obviously can't or won't.

 

I'm not saying give him an ultimatum, but instead find out where he is at, and if he is not where you want to be, then you have to be prepared to move on.

 

Tell him this:

 

"For the past 2 years you have been telling me that in 2 years you'd like for us to be married and maybe start trying for a family. That 2 year period is now up and I want to know where we stand. I am ready to get engaged now and married within the next 2 years. I am not willing to wait any longer. That's what I want and what I thought you wanted. You have a choice, we are either on the same time line in terms of engagment and marriage or we are not. Either way I will respect your right to choose. If we are on the same time line, then tell me now and let's get engaged and set a date. If you don't or can't make a choice, I will take that to mean we are not on the same time line, and I will then make the choice to move on and find someone else and so can you. Tell me now, are we on the same time line, yes or no?"

 

This may sound like an ultimatum or pressure on him, but it is more about getting clarity and clarity is exactly what is needed after this long. He's not a kid anymore. He needs to make adult decisions and it's not fair to you.

 

After this long, it's not a complicated question. Either the two of you are on the same time line or you are not. It's a yes or no answer at this stage. Anything vague such as "yes, but" or "it's not that simple" or "i'm not ready" answers is a "no". Anything short of an unqualified "yes" is a "no".

Edited April 30, 2012 by westrock

[setsenia]

I agree with westrock. If not an ultimatum, you need to find out what he's plans are and outline yours to him. If he's not on the same page, you owe it to yourself not to waste any more time and he shouldn't waste your time either. Thankfully, my H and I would talk about marriage and kids when we were dating. It may seem early to some, but I think it's best for each one of you talk about what you both want before moving in together and becoming serious.

[CupcakeCrisis]

We did talk about them before moving in together. It just gets muddier and muddier - when it's supposed to happen - over time.

 

Last night we were talking and I mentioned that I have about 5 more years before I need to solidly decide if I'd like to have children. His answer? "I don't want to be pushing 40 (he'd actually be in his mid-30s by then) when I have my first child." So I asked, "When do you want to have kids, then? Two years? Three years?" His response floored me: "I don't want to set a deadline." Are you kidding me, buddy? You're telling me you don't want to be pushing 40 when you have your first child - and supposedly that's not setting deadlines?

 

It was late at night so I didn't push that one any further but I couldn't believe it. Does he hear himself when he talks? Apparently he's very OK with vague outlines of what he would like but when it comes time to 'commit' to a timeline, he's all out of there. On everything.

 

Wouldn't most people say, "I'd prefer to have a kid within the next two to four years?" What is with this guy?

 

He was looking at a web site with engagement rings when I came home last night. He has alluded a few times to "getting married in the fall" next year, which was one of the second time-frames I mentioned I would like.

 

But by the time he actually gets around to a jewelry store to buy an engagement ring, my deadline's probably going to be long gone (tl;dr version: I don't want an engagement ring, and certainly nothing very expensive - I told him anything over $1500 is absurd. I suggested he go for white topaz or something, not diamonds. I don't want a wedding. I want to elope. I would even be pleased to go to the courthouse. He wants the big, elaborate nonsense).

 

I am planning to leave around September or so, right around our four year anniversary. I'm a freelancer/contract worker so I'm building up as much work as I can and trying to save as much as I can before I go. I will soon start making other arrangements for living and all. I have learned my lesson: I'll never again live with a man if I'm not engaged with a wedding date set. I have a feeling they all just screw you over like this...

 

I know that the poster who suggested anything short of a definitive answer is 'no' is right. The knowledge is sinking in. Either this guy is just not that into me, which is very likely, or he's completely ignorant as to how this whole thing works. You don't spend a year or two or God knows how long just looking at web pages of engagement rings, then who knows how long shopping in the stores for engagement rings, THEN spend how many months figuring out a proposal, etc. Well, I should take a few steps back: he's not even gone to a store to LOOK yet.

 

This has hit my self-esteem hard. I'm educated, I pay my own bills, I contribute financially to our household (not quite to the same degree as he does, but a major sum), do all of the cleaning and errands, have my own friends and my own hobbies outside of my boyfriend (a wide variety, I like to think), I'm polite, friendly, even funny sometimes. I am beginning to take this as a personal rejection even though on a logical level I know that the problem is with him.

 

That's part of what has made coming down hard on this discussion so difficult, and I admit that I am the type to hide away from it. the moment he starts getting irritated, annoyed or otherwise tries to shut me down, I back off because I'm intimidated. I need to stop doing that, confront him about it and push a little bit more. But then again, I guess I already have my answer.

 

This is petty, admittedly - and NOT the reason that I would like to get married. It's simply recognizing, "I would like for this to happen to me, and I see it happening to other people, and it makes me question why it's not happening to me when I have - or so I thought - an otherwise happy relationship." It does get very difficult to see my friends getting engaged after a year or two together. It gets very difficult to see myriads of engagement and wedding announcements every week, wondering if I'm just killing time until I break up with him and move onto another person who will hopefully be ready to commit in a reasonable amount of time...

 

I guess I don't know what to do over the next few months. By the time that the deadline hits, it will have been at least a solid year I've been actively telling him I would like to get married. I can't give him anymore time than that.

 

I almost feel like - and this is not something I'd actually do, but it's the very hurt side of me coming out - I'd slap him if he proposed to me out of anger. Anger that it has taken so much to just drag out of him what he wants and WHEN. I feel like I'm being toyed with - that then, after watching me suffer, he pops out a ring and tries to pretend everything is okay.

 

I know my resentment and anger is getting to a point where it's unlikely I'll be able to turn back and actually feel happy to start our life together after being left hanging for so long. And I know I've been a fool to accept half-answers from him, or declarations of, "Yes, I would like for (x) to happen in (x) time." Then more time passes, and his answer has either suddenly changed or he's being coy about when he would like for something to happen.

 

Even more added pressure - our relationship has become laughingstock among our family members and friends. At a family picnic, a few friends came up and asked, "So, still no ring, huh? No house, either? Is the guy even looking?" I know they weren't trying to be intentionally cruel - but the end result was still a knife in the gut. I'm not the only one wondering what the Hell is going on.

 

He'll tell family members and friends he's 'looking' for a house and it's getting to the point that I have just started laughing. I'm not intentionally trying to hurt his feelings but after 6+ months of 'looking' he doesn't even have a single house he'd like to look at to show for it. I try to help him and then I say, "How about we go look at (x) on (x)?" and I get a, "Yeah, uh-huh." Then I'll remind him and it never happens because suddenly something has come up.

 

Every day that I wake up lately I ask myself if today is the day I should start moving my stuff out and go home. I guess I'm afraid of starting over all over again: I fear that I'll move all of my stuff out and THEN learn that he was going to propose and I was just overreacting, and then I've forever botched it. And I worry that leaving over a proposal isn't a 'good enough' reason when I'm otherwise happy. At the same time, I know that this degree of procrastination isn't healthy and I might wind up never getting married, never moving out of our cramped one-bedroom apartment, and never having children because he can't make up his mind.

[Radu]

Look, i hope i won't depress you with what i have to say, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders as i especially liked your stance on ultimatums.

 

I noticed your bf goes for the grandiose :

- bigger degree

- house

- biiiig wedding

- the expensive ring

basically the grand things that take a lot of time to finish. He opened several fronts, so i don't know if the 'men can only do one thing at a time' argument works here.

It's true, we have problems from a biological pov, we can't focus on more than one thing at a time and we need to set them in order.

By comparison, women can multitask better.

But i'm getting off topic now.

 

It feels to me like all of these have been spammed out there within the last yr or so and put before the marriage itself, made marriage conditional on these.

 

I know of these from experience as i also had a period in my life when i was a bit depressed, dragged my feet to do the right thing and always kept spamming these new things into plan to delay what i knew would be the inevitable.

I have also seen something similar with a cousin of mine [female] and her bf. Going on 6 yrs now, and damn if it's not eerily similar.

 

I suspect your bf is very selfish, egotistical.

You said he doesn't have any problem going for what he wants.

How is he at home, outside of work hs, is he the type to consider that his time outside of the job is his time and work dares not intrude it ?

Is he the type to leave work exactly when he can ?

Is he the type to fight tooth and nail for the raise and get it, knows how to sell himself well to his boss ?

Look at his parent's way of being as a reflection of what he will become.

If the answer to these is yes, i think you shouldn't marry him even if he does propose, and i honestly suspect that he will do a half-assed proposal if he sees you walking out the door followed by a few months of repentance ... and you know what will happen after that, same old same old.

 

That's not to say that your mathematical calculations of your statistical probabilities of the facts of life doesn't turn me off.

Are you by any chance in this field of work ?

Really, reading your thread made me think of an old joke about the woman who made living life a chore by planning ahead every aspect of her life.

It really is permeating your posts, but don't be bummed out, i think he's in the wrong here.

 

Really don't blame yourself, he dangled the marriage carrot in front of your eyes so it's natural that after some point you would get bored with it.

If you ever had a cat and played with it with a piece of string, you know what i'm talking about ... eventually the cat says '**** this' and lies down.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Radu

[pink_sugar]

 

I am planning to leave around September or so, right around our four year anniversary. I'm a freelancer/contract worker so I'm building up as much work as I can and trying to save as much as I can before I go. I will soon start making other arrangements for living and all. I have learned my lesson: I'll never again live with a man if I'm not engaged with a wedding date set. I have a feeling they all just screw you over like this...

 

 

Unfortunately, statistics agree with you. Couples who marry before living together have better outcomes than people living together before marriage.

[Els]

I'm a little confused, OP. One the one hand, you say that all you want is the assurance that he is gunning towards the same goal... and yet most of your posts are about the 'timeline'. Which is it that you are concerned about?

 

Assuming that it is the former, if you don't trust him when he tells you that he IS gunning towards the same goal but just perhaps with a longer timeline than yourself, it is unadvisable to make a lifetime commitment to this man anyway. That is a huge thing to not trust someone's words about.

 

Assuming the latter, if you are worried about time, well, only you can decide if you feel it is worth it throwing all this out to be able to get someone on a similar timeline. My opinion is, the 20s is too young an age to be THAT concerned over time. Sure, lots of people get married in their 20s and some are even successful, but this should be a time of exploration and growth - if it happens, it happens. Sometimes people often focus so much on societally-imprinted goals in their 20s that they forget to just enjoy the journey and grow as a person. The more you have grown as a person and are confident in the person you have grown to be, the higher the chances of a lifetime commitment working, IMO. Do you feel that you are, and that you genuinely want to be with this man for the rest of your life? To me, at least, it sounds like you're viewing marriage as a means to an end, and not really as the serious lifelong commitment it is meant to be.

 

As for family members, there's always going to be the jibing about marriage. Just ignore them, as hard as it is. Don't live your life for others. They aren't going to be the ones picking up the bits and pieces if anything goes wrong, you are.

[CarboniteCammy]

I waited three years for my last boyfriend to propose. When he didn't, I started noticing all the little things about the relationship that made me unhappy and ended up leaving him.

 

I left him two years ago, and he's still single to this day, but I'm currently married. He sent me a message on FB congratulating me, but it felt hollow.

[CupcakeCrisis]

I had a big response here but my computer crashed - I'll try to remember most of it and cover most of your points, guys.

 

Elswyth, I'm both concerned about a timeline and compatible goals on the engagement front. I am worried that he will think it's time to get all settled down in 5 or more years - that's a screaming incompatibility for me. I'm not willing to date someone for 10 years, let alone 5 years. It also shows a lack of interest in marriage and maybe a fear of getting married.

 

It's not that I consider marriage the end of the road - I realize I'm looking at the next 50+ years of my life with the same person, of the trials and tribulations (of which we've already been through a few major ones) and all that marriage entails. I realize that our relationship must be worked on throughout life and that that doesn't end at the altar (as most folks seem to behave exactly that way: "I have her, now it's over!").

 

But after nearly 4 years, I do have to seriously question whether or not this is leading to marriage on both ends. I would like it to. He SAYS he would like it to but can never actually get moving to get anything done. If it's not going to lead to marriage, or if it's going to look as likely as it does now in a year or two, I'd rather leave now, play the field and see if I can find someone else compatible while I'm still IN my 20s, rather than dating for a few more years before I decide I've allowed enough time to pass by.

 

I will say that I am losing trust in him that he's going to propose: simply because he keeps procrastinating, procrastinating, procrastinating. I believed him the first and the second time. But the more and more time passed, I stopped having trust in him. I'd say I'm about 80% sure that he will not propose to me despite what he says. It's like the getting a house issue.

 

He has more than 20% ready for a down payment on most of the houses in our area. So exactly when is he going to get around to getting a place? He's started joking that by the time he gets around to getting a house, he'll be able to pay for it "in cash only" because he'll have saved up so much.

 

Sure, it's funny, but I'm not amused. There's always another hurdle in the way, every single time. "I'll save up 20%." "I'll save up 30%." "I have to get x done first." "I just started y, so I have to wait until y is finished."

 

I'm not a fan of excuses and I'm not a fan of saying you'll do something, but never following through. It took him an entire YEAR to get around to scheduling one of his college entrance exams - he only studied for about a month or two of that - he just pissed away his time even when he had the school routinely calling or e-mailing asking for his results.

 

I know that dating gets more difficult, especially for women, as you get into your thirties. I should also say - while I don't LIVE in the American South - I live in a community where a lot of people have Southern ancestry. Most people in our area marry by their mid-20s and definitely by their late 20s. So, my pickings in the area are getting slimmer every year. It's not exactly looked down upon to be unmarried in your 30s, but it's definitely considered odd and unusual.

 

If we lived in a big city, I'm sure it would be drastically different. But the pace of life here is different, for some more background.

 

It's not that I think I'm in a danger zone with my age - but my feeling is this: We've dated for nearly 4 years. We're both at least in our mid 20s. We have lived together, peacefully, for more than a year. We're in good shape financially, we get along, we love each other, I love spending time with him. What's the hold - up? There are only so many excuses at this point - and I think "he's just not that into you" may be among them.

 

For the poster who asked if I work in statistics - hahaha. I'm actually in the marketing/writing/education fields. Although I do get very pragmatic and down to numbers when it comes to something like this, as often I'll get into the best case scenario and let my heart lead me when my head knows realistically I'm fooling myself. The same applies here: logically, I am really beginning to believe my heart is fooling me.

 

As for my boyfriend's history: His grandparents have been happily married for 50+ years. His parents have been married for 30+ years - he says happily and they seem happy. Never been divorced. He has an uncle - albeit one he barely knows on his father's side - who cheated on his wife and divorced, but that's it.

 

His sister has been married for about 5 years now, is expecting her first child, they seem happy. He's making plans for the two of us to go visit her sometime in the winter after the baby's born and he's very excited. He will bring up old classmates/co-workers who have married out of the blue, just with announcements of, "Hey, so-and-so got married." For a while, I thought this was his way of trying to drag me into a marriage conversation.

 

 

For the poster asking about some of his personality traits: He is actually a very generous and giving person. He will offer assistance to people, me included, without thinking twice - and he follows through. He IS sexually selfish but is willing to work on it and has shown some promise. He's not selfish with work - he enjoys his job and every now and then will work on things at home or will do 'extra' just to get things done.

 

If he proposes after I walk out the door - as hard as it would be - I would keep walking. I don't want a 'shut up' ring. If it gets to that point, it's not worth it anyway.

[CarboniteCammy]

I think alot of times when I see these threads how different marriage is for men then women.

 

Men can produce children up until their 70's. Women have a much, much shorter time frame to produce children if that's something that they want. In my honest opinion, I feel that concerns over timelines are very valid and more then enough of a reason to end an otherwise good relationship.

 

After all, it's very common knowlege that whether to have or not have children is a deal breaker in many, many relationships and I fail to see why this would be any different. If a man isn't ready until a woman is over 35, that puts both her and the kid at significant risk for birthing problems, not to mention the odds of SIDS and Downsyndrome increases exponentially for babies born to women after that age.

 

Plus, if a woman wants multiple children, waiting until you're after thirty makes things much more difficult in terms of being able to space your kids out properly. Most pediatricians will say three to four years between kids to really give them their own identity. Not everyone follows that or does it that way, but I do know many women who have planned their pregnancies around that.

 

While I don't advocate pushing someone to get married, I do feel that having an honest conversation about incredibly important. I don't feel that it's ok for a man to give vague answers when something that will affect a woman's whole future is on the line. Just my opinion, of course, and I have been in the position where I've ended relationships because the other party wasn't where I needed them to be.

[samsungxoxo]

You know, I'm thinking if a man wanted to get married, I don't think he would need an ultimatum nor get reminded by the woman about ''where is this going, you said this and that 2 years ago''.

 

Wouldn't it come from within him and he would do it himself? For all a know, he would even go against the winds or through broken glasses if that is what takes to propose.

 

Ok let's say the OP's proposes after that talk but then how would she know that's a sincere, surprise proposal or only because she mentioned it? I have a feeling he is wasting the OP's time and if after a long time the future hasn't been mentioned on a single conversation, it's time to move on.

[MissBee]

I don't understand the concept of engagements being some surprise that you wait for, like in the movies. The day he asks me and how, should be the only surprise, but I need to be in a relationship where we have the same goals and have previously discussed marriage. That is, a courtship relationship, where we both have decided we want to marry each other, we've discussed it before, looked at rings, and it's an actual plan. I think by year 3 in a relationship, even before then, you KNOW and should have discussed and been observing if this person is marriage material.

 

My ex and I didn't marry but we both went into the relationship looking to settle down. We were not the right fit for each other in the end, but the point is that we both knew marriage was what we wanted, so our relationship always had that in mind. At this point in life, I can't date just to date and wouldn't just be with a man hoping for marriage. I would only seriously be in a relationship with a man who expresses he wants marriage too, and where we both are openly seeing if we want to marry each other, and where we at some point decide this is the step.....then the proposal itself, which is the formal asking, should occur.

 

If you are waiting and waiting...you aren't communicating or you aren't on the same page and that is a bigger problem than the actual engagement. For a marriage to work, which is the ultimate point of being engaged, you need to be on compatible paths and life plans and while dating, you should be discovering this and should already know before you get too comfortable. People have to be upfront about what they want and you always need to be checking the state of your relationship and where it's headed...this should be done frequently, and if it is, by the 3 yr mark at most, IMO, we should both have a firm idea of whether we want to marry each other.

[MissBee]

You know, I'm thinking if a man wanted to get married, I don't think he would need an ultimatum nor get reminded by the woman about ''where is this going, you said this and that 2 years ago''.

 

Wouldn't it come from within him and he would do it himself? For all a know, he would even go against the winds or through broken glasses if that is what takes to propose.

 

Ok let's say the OP's proposes after that talk but then how would she know that's a sincere, surprise proposal or only because she mentioned it? I have a feeling he is wasting the OP's time and if after a long time the future hasn't been mentioned on a single conversation, it's time to move on.

 

This is true and I only want to be with a man who wants to get married to me just as much as I him. I would feel so insecure if I felt like I was the one pushing him or forcing his hand. I don't want to marry just because I want to marry. I want to marry the right person, who is 100% in it for me, wholeheartedly as I them. If I have to poke and prod and feel like I am waiting endlessly without knowing what is going on...chances are, maybe we need not get married.

 

I want him to know I'm the one for him, I want him to discuss marriage with me because he wants it, I want him to be excited about it. My brother, for example, constantly talked to us about marrying his girlfriend, a year before he popped the question (they were together 5 years ). There was no denying that he loved her and wanted this, not because she begged him, hinted or gave him ultimatums. He wanted her to be his wife because he loved her and saw that for himself. He took her to look at rings "for fun" months before he actually asked her. Of his own free will he orchestrated the proposal, he asked her dad for her hand, he bought the ring, he proposed. It was beautiful and it was something he did because after being together and them discussing it, it was something they both wanted.

[CupcakeCrisis]

The last several months have been such a nightmare. I guess that's obvious...

 

He will bring up getting engaged/married/etc. on his own. Almost always vague, though. All of a sudden, he's been looking at sites with rings lately and asking my opinion. He asked me to send him links to a few so he could get a better idea. That rubbed me the wrong way - once again, going about it the lazy way, putting in as little effort as possible - but I also figured, "a step in the right direction is still a step, no matter how small..."

 

I say 'lazy' because I knew what he would do with this. He asked me if I would care if he just picked something off that list. Not entirely, and I know I'm being a little unreasonable about this, but part of me is seriously going, "Really? At no point can you do any of this on your own?"

 

I feel like he's a grade school kid handing me his homework, asking me to fill in all of the blanks for him. I feel like if he's just going to have me more or less hand-pick my own ring anyway, why am I not just proposing to him instead?

 

Or why not just declare that we're engaged and end this stupid 'we'll be engaged when I ASK you to be my wife' crap? **** or get off the pot. I'm so sick of it.

 

I have been at war with myself. I have gone back and forth on deciding whether or not I should just propose to him myself and get myself out of this limbo. But a friend talked some sense into me: if I propose, I'm just pushing back the inevitable timebomb. Sooner or later, the procrastination crap will begin anew with getting a house, him helping me out with planning a wedding, deciding when to have a family, etc. If not one thing, it will be another.

 

My friend thinks that if my boyfriend can't propose in a timely manner ON HIS OWN, I need to just run for the hills because I'm getting a glimpse at the rest of my life with nothing ever moving forward.

 

So, I took his advice and I've decided not to propose.

 

I have no idea what I should do. Well, I do. My friend told me that he would be more shocked if I called him and told him that I'm engaged because all of this has been going on for almost a year (at least at this intensity level). I know he means well - he even told me he'd bet his life savings that my boyfriend won't propose to me by September. I know he didn't say that to hurt my feelings but to share just how unlikely he thinks it is that my boyfriend will wake up before my deadline (please note: he has NO idea that I am thinking of leaving him).

 

On the one hand, I'd love to wait 1 day after our four year anniversary before I walk off. But that's still at least 3 months away. I don't know if I have it in me to go that last little miserable stretch before I firmly call it quits and move on to a guy who can hopefully commit within 3 years.

 

But I don't want to be like some of my friends, who push back their deadlines over and over again. I have some friends who once said they'd never wait more than 2 or 3 years for a proposal. Now they've been with the guy for 7, 8, 9 years or more, still unhappy as ever. I don't see how they do it.

 

I know some of the other posters, like samsung, are probably right. I know he's probably not that crazy about me. His actions show it over and over and over again...and I'm an idiot who keeps accepting it. But not past the 4 year mark. For sure. I'm done.

 

I find it very difficult to not talk about getting married. Every then and again I'll ask him about the proposal thing, and I get: "Soon." Well, 'soon' could be now or it could be a year or two from now. This waiting thing is not cute, it's not a 'love story,' I think it's malicious, manipulative and cruel. Whoever decided that it's 'cute' and 'romantic' to leave a partner waiting in misery for who knows how long before a proposal does or does not come must have been smoking something.

 

He claims that we're going to go to another ring shop tomorrow and confirm my ring size, "just in case," after he told me he plans to order my engagement ring online.Yet coincidentally every other time 'we' make plans to go get sized or to go look at rings, he will not take the initiative. The day of, he'll pretend we didn't make plans by completely not bringing it up (even if we made the plans THAT morning or the night before) or he'll just ask me that evening, as though he's hoping I'll reconsider.

 

Wouldn't most guys just come home and go, "Okay, let's go get your finger sized, I'd like to get this done"? I'm not crazy for reading the "We made plans but I'll pretend we didn't" thing as "I don't care about marrying you/I want to get out of this," right?

 

I did tell him very recently that I feel that I should move out because clearly it's hindering us from moving forward (after trying several other routes: I.e., talking to him). He got very angry and told me that that doesn't make him 'any closer to proposing.' lol, as though he's close to proposing now! I wasn't trying to force an ultimatum, but I do think I need to stop giving the milk for free. The more you give, the more people take.

[SarahRose]

i have read through the entire thread of yours.

 

i am wondering is he ever decisive about others things in his life? do he do things on his own or does he need to be poke and prodded for everything?

 

Do you feel that his plans are mostly about him and are his plans? like the school and buying a house by himself.

 

do you feel he is planning his future or a future with the two of you together?

 

after four years if you have to remind someone to marry you, then he very likely wants marriage but not to you.

 

do you feel your life is on hold waiting around for him to do something? are you making plans for yourself?