Dating an Agnostic?

[KathyM]

Priests provide RELIGIOUS pre-marital counseling oftentimes, yes, but their training is nothing like the training of a professional, license counselor, nor should their advice be a substitute for that (or a doctor or a lawyer or any other trained professional of another profession). Priests do many things for their communities, yes, including outreach. In fact, I think before therapy existed, churches were used therapeutically for hundreds of years (many people feel Catholic confession is particularly therapeutic for them, for instance). But to varying success, which is why actual therapists provide an important perspective and service as well.

 

Various monks (I'm Buddhist) have helped me with many issues in my life, but their specific training is not that of a counselor, nor would I see them for issues that I felt might be helped by a counselor in lieu of someone fully trained. As I said, the OP could feel free to also talk to a priest for the perspective, but I wouldn't rule out actual counseling since her main issues are not religious, but rather familial.

 

You seem rather closed-minded about her speaking to anyone other than a priest. I'm saying she has many options, and she might want to consider an array of them. This problem just doesn't seem to be religious (she's fine with her BF's religion, and he's fine with hers, and they both seem very respectful of each others' beliefs), but rather familial. It would potentially be helpful if she found a priest who could console her mother and help her be happy for her daughter, but it would be a hindrance if the OP were further hounded by her family because her priest added to their disapproval. So, it could go either way.

I gave a lot of suggestions on whom she should talk to--her priest, a Christian counselor specially trained in counseling, other practicing Catholics who have made the decision to marry a nonbeliever, and her brothers and sisters in Christ. That's quite a potential support group in helping her come to some decision and in dealing with her family.

[FredRutherford]

Originally Posted by KathyM

 

Priests provide premarital counseling. A lot of them do receive training in counseling as part of their training to becoming a priest. Some take courses in counseling and specialize in counseling. My older sister married a Catholic man (she is Lutheran) and received counseling from the Catholic church before marriage, and had to agree to raise their children as Catholic.

bolded part,absolutely true, and i find this outrageous.

you wouldn't register a child as affiliated with any particular political party, so why compel someone to baptise them into a faith that statistically, they either will not adhere to, or will actually deliberately move away from?

I don't think that's a hard requirement, maybe a pledge.

In premarital counseling with my wife's Catholic church, I think we may have agreed to raise our children as Catholic but never heard what would happen if we didn't or if we left for another denomination.

We're not Catholics and like her sister and brothers and many others, she left the church though her parents are still involved and attend Mass.

 

Wife tells me that requirement is just a suggestion. It's not like they're going to hunt you down and...

 

Of course, that kind of thing used to alarm me as a protestant.

And I had some irrational fears of Catholicism, until I had a good discussion with a priest friend of a relative, whose not Catholic.

Edited March 13, 2012 by FredRutherford

[zengirl]

It may just be a suggestion today, but for years, it was considered more a "requirement."

 

I gave a lot of suggestions on whom she should talk to--her priest, a Christian counselor specially trained in counseling, other practicing Catholics who have made the decision to marry a nonbeliever, and her brothers and sisters in Christ. That's quite a potential support group in helping her come to some decision and in dealing with her family.

 

Well, for starters, I don't know what a "Christian counselor specifically trained in counseling" is unless you just mean a regular counselor who happens to be Christian (as you say, most will not divulge their religion).

 

Also, it sounded to me, in her last post, like she had already made her decision and wants to come to terms with her family's feelings on the matter. I do not think the people who help her need to be outside of the Catholic faith necessarily. I do think it's VERY odd to assume they need to be Catholic to help her and that kind of assumption would only exacerbate her dissonance, which is already about her family having the view (which she does not share) that her partner needs to be from within the faith.

[KathyM]

bolded part,absolutely true, and i find this outrageous.

you wouldn't register a child as affiliated with any particular political party, so why compel someone to baptise them into a faith that statistically, they either will not adhere to, or will actually deliberately move away from?

 

Before anyone jumps down my throat, i DID have my children christened into the catholic faith.

At the time, i did it because it was expected of me - but neither daughter is at all religious, my grandson has not been christened, and thank goodness for that.

my daughter is far more clear-headed than I was!

The majority of children adopt the faith of their parents. Even those that may, for a time, move away from the faith when young, they often go back to it after awhile. I don't remember the statistics offhand, but I believe it was 80% adopt the faith of their parents if both share the same faith. Less than 50% if only one parent has the faith. Much less if neither has the faith. Spirituality is a value and belief system that is passed down from generation to generation. People can choose to reject it later on, but for the most part, children adopt the beliefs of their parents. Your children are obviously confused about what they believe, since you have rejected your faith and moved on to something else.

[zengirl]

The majority of children adopt the faith of their parents. Even those that may, for a time, move away from the faith when young, they often go back to it after awhile. I don't remember the statistics offhand, but I believe it was 80% adopt the faith of their parents if both share the same faith. Less than 50% if only one parent has the faith. Much less if neither has the faith. Spirituality is a value and belief system that is passed down from generation to generation. People can choose to reject it later on, but for the most part, children adopt the beliefs of their parents. Your children are obviously confused about what they believe, since you have rejected your faith and moved on to something else.

 

If these statistics are true, this kind of suggests that faith is anything but personal and is instead is pure indoctrination. I do agree that children who are taught that they absolutely should believe exactly what they're told to believe and are never given any other options or perspectives are more likely to follow that belief, but why is that a good thing?

 

Wouldn't it be a more resounding victory for your faith if children could be shown it, told it's not the only thing out there, and educated in an array of cultures and STILL chose that faith for themselves?

 

To me, that explanation sounds like: Children who are only taught one option are very likely to choose that option. Which. . . duh. Because they weren't given a chance to really explore and be open to other options. I don't have anything against religion (I am religious and spiritual) or Christianity (much of my family is Catholic or Christian), but I do have a lot against closed-mindedness.

[KathyM]

It may just be a suggestion today, but for years, it was considered more a "requirement."

 

 

 

Well, for starters, I don't know what a "Christian counselor specifically trained in counseling" is unless you just mean a regular counselor who happens to be Christian (as you say, most will not divulge their religion).

 

Also, it sounded to me, in her last post, like she had already made her decision and wants to come to terms with her family's feelings on the matter. I do not think the people who help her need to be outside of the Catholic faith necessarily. I do think it's VERY odd to assume they need to be Catholic to help her and that kind of assumption would only exacerbate her dissonance, which is already about her family having the view (which she does not share) that her partner needs to be from within the faith.

There are counselors specifically trained and advertising themselves as Christian counselors. Some work in Christian counseling centers, some work specifically for a church, some are affiliated with a church, some work independently and advertise themselves specifically as Christian counselors, and they make it very clear that that is the perspective that they are coming from. There are also pastors and other church leaders who specifically take courses in couple and family counseling in order to provide that service to their congregation members. Counselors serving the general public are not supposed to divulge their religious persuation, and are specifically, ethically required to refer the clients to get counseling from their religious leaders if matters of religion or faith-based questions are in question. Even if the goal for the OP is only to get along better with her parents on this issue, I do believe, since the elephant in the room is faith-oriented and that is the dilema and issue here, her church leader is the one to go to on this. That would be the best option IMO, on getting the family to come to terms with this.

[fortyninethousand322]

If these statistics are true, this kind of suggests that faith is anything but personal and is instead is pure indoctrination. I do agree that children who are taught that they absolutely should believe exactly what they're told to believe and are never given any other options or perspectives are more likely to follow that belief, but why is that a good thing?

 

Wouldn't it be a more resounding victory for your faith if children could be shown it, told it's not the only thing out there, and educated in an array of cultures and STILL chose that faith for themselves?

 

To me, that explanation sounds like: Children who are only taught one option are very likely to choose that option. Which. . . duh. Because they weren't given a chance to really explore and be open to other options. I don't have anything against religion (I am religious and spiritual) or Christianity (much of my family is Catholic or Christian), but I do have a lot against closed-mindedness.

 

Meh, I grew up in a nominally liberal Protestant household. We hardly ever went to church (first time was when I was in 4th grade). I went to college and learned about other religions (many of which I like). But, I'd still call myself a Christian, just not as wedded to liberal Protestantism like I was before. I'd say Kathy's statistics are a little off, or at least misleading. It's almost impossible nowadays to not be exposed to other beliefs and at least explore them.

[TaraMaiden]

At the time i went to school, at the R.Catholic boarding convent, we never learnt about other religions, their fundamental beliefs, or where they were rooted.

When the time came, my move away from Catholicism was swift and absolute. i would almost go so far as to say it was an immediate 'overnight' decision.

 

My children, on the other hand, were educated at a time when the curriculum here in the UK, was required to teach matters about other religions, apart from the 'domestic' one. so they had a broad-spectrum education, as well as a scientific one, which pulled no punches on evolution. (I say this, because i'm aware that in parts of the USA it's a highly contentious issue. )

their move away from Catholicism was quiet, gradual and 'drifting'.

 

but the reasons we all moved away from it, was because deep down, it made absolutely no sense to follow it at all.

[fortyninethousand322]

At the time i went to school, at the R.Catholic boarding convent, we never learnt about other religions, their fundamental beliefs, or where they were rooted.

When the time came, my move away from Catholicism was swift and absolute. i would almost go so far as to say it was an immediate 'overnight' decision.

 

My children, on the other hand, were educated at a time when the curriculum here in the UK, was required to teach matters about other religions, apart from the 'domestic' one. so they had a broad-spectrum education, as well as a scientific one, which pulled no punches on evolution. (I say this, because i'm aware that in parts of the USA it's a highly contentious issue. )

their move away from Catholicism was quiet, gradual and 'drifting'.

 

but the reasons we all moved away from it, was because deep down, it made absolutely no sense to follow it at all.

 

Anyone who bases their entire spiritual ideology on whether evolution is true or not, should probably re-evaluate their religious or spiritual beliefs.

 

Whether humans came from apes, or giant oranges, doesn't really change my perspective.

[zengirl]

Meh, I grew up in a nominally liberal Protestant household. We hardly ever went to church (first time was when I was in 4th grade). I went to college and learned about other religions (many of which I like). But, I'd still call myself a Christian, just not as wedded to liberal Protestantism like I was before. I'd say Kathy's statistics are a little off, or at least misleading. It's almost impossible nowadays to not be exposed to other beliefs and at least explore them.

 

It's not almost impossible where I live. It's predominantly Christian, and most children here are never exposed to other faiths, particularly if their families aren't progressive or interested in exposing them to other faiths. I'm skeptical of her statistics as well, but I don't get the way she trumpeted them as though it was proof that strictly instilling faith was better. To me, it would say something very different----it suggests that the children would not choose similarly if they were more exposed to other religions. Not that I think there's anything wrong with sharing your family's religion either---just that I don't think Kathy seems to be any more supportive of the OP's relationship than the OP's parents are, and I find that kind of counterproductive to giving advice to encourage the OP in her relationship.

[Diamonds&Rust]

Priests provide RELIGIOUS pre-marital counseling oftentimes, yes, but their training is nothing like the training of a professional, license counselor, nor should their advice be a substitute for that

Exactly. What's happening here is confusing the use of counseling as a general term for advice-giving and counseling as a clinical practice.

 

Also, contrary to what I've read here, there are plenty of clinical counselors who will disclose their Christian faith. I see them do this more often than atheist or Jewish professionals, who seem more abundant but also less forthcoming about their own faith. There are reasons why you'd want to keep your faith a secret in order to preserve the transference, but there are plenty of people who aren't doing that sort of psychotherapy or have a different, more eclectic approach.

The counseling idea sounds like a good plan. Since this is a religious issue, maybe that counseling should come from your priest. You may even want to seek out the opinions of other practicing Catholics...

Kathy believes that I'm not a practicing Catholic. God told her this, in English.

 

Also, she believes your problem is a religious issue in spite of you clearly saying that it isn't one.

 

Sometimes I can't help myself.

[KathyM]

If these statistics are true, this kind of suggests that faith is anything but personal and is instead is pure indoctrination. I do agree that children who are taught that they absolutely should believe exactly what they're told to believe and are never given any other options or perspectives are more likely to follow that belief, but why is that a good thing?

 

Wouldn't it be a more resounding victory for your faith if children could be shown it, told it's not the only thing out there, and educated in an array of cultures and STILL chose that faith for themselves?

 

To me, that explanation sounds like: Children who are only taught one option are very likely to choose that option. Which. . . duh. Because they weren't given a chance to really explore and be open to other options. I don't have anything against religion (I am religious and spiritual) or Christianity (much of my family is Catholic or Christian), but I do have a lot against closed-mindedness.

People develop the concept from their parents that faith is important in life (assuming the parents practice a faith). When people get older, they often do question their beliefs, some may even abandon their religion altogether, they become aware of the doctrine of other faiths, but most eventually do come back to what they were raised with, or something similar to it if they were brought up with two parents who practiced that faith. They come back of their own free choice. We are not raised in a bubble. We have the opportunity to seek out whatever faith is meaningful to us, assuming we live in a country where freedom of religion exists. Most willingly choose to adopt the faith they were raised in. Last I heard, the U.S. had freedom of religion. I was raised in the Lutheran church, but later changed to another Christian faith. My core beliefs have not changed from what I grew up with. I chose my faith, based on what I felt made the most sense, and of course, the fact that I see evidence of God's existence, and know people who have experienced miracles in their lives, gives me no doubt in my mind that what I believe is correct. Part of the responsibility of parents is to raise their children to have a value system, morals that will guide them in life and keep them from harm. Most of our personal value system comes from our religious beliefs or what we've been taught to value as children.

[zengirl]

People develop the concept from their parents that faith is important in life (assuming the parents practice a faith). When people get older, they often do question their beliefs, some may even abandon their religion altogether, they become aware of the doctrine of other faiths, but most eventually do come back to what they were raised with, or something similar to it if they were brought up with two parents who practiced that faith. They come back of their own free choice. We are not raised in a bubble. We have the opportunity to seek out whatever faith is meaningful to us, assuming we live in a country where freedom of religion exists. Most willingly choose to adopt the faith they were raised in. Last I heard, the U.S. had freedom of religion. I was raised in the Lutheran church, but later changed to another Christian faith. My core beliefs have not changed from what I grew up with. I chose my faith, based on what I felt made the most sense, and of course, the fact that I see evidence of God's existence, and know people who have experienced miracles in their lives, gives me no doubt in my mind that what I believe is correct. Part of the responsibility of parents is to raise their children to have a value system, morals that will guide them in life and keep them from harm. Most of our personal value system comes from our religious beliefs or what we've been taught to value as children.

 

I'm not suggesting they're not choosing it. I'm just saying those statistics (if they are true) very much suggest that religion is purely acquired through socialization and indoctrination. Personally, I'm not much into indoctrination. But that's my value system. I think indoctrination causes things like parents who don't want their daughter's happiness unless it's under their standards, and that stuff makes me sad. *shrugs*

[KathyM]

Meh, I grew up in a nominally liberal Protestant household. We hardly ever went to church (first time was when I was in 4th grade). I went to college and learned about other religions (many of which I like). But, I'd still call myself a Christian, just not as wedded to liberal Protestantism like I was before. I'd say Kathy's statistics are a little off, or at least misleading. It's almost impossible nowadays to not be exposed to other beliefs and at least explore them.

As I said, I don't remember the exact statistics, but I do remember the findings--that children raised with parents who practiced and believed the same faith, those children had a high percentage of adopting that faith later in life. Of those where only one parent was a believer of that faith, the percentage of children who practiced it later in life was much lower--less than 50%. Of those who grew up with no faith, they generally remained with no faith later in life.

[TaraMaiden]

it also makes it wrong.

 

if we were discussing this from a purely a-religious angle, and religion didn't come into it - that is to say, it was merely a matter of a mother being dead-set against her daughter's choice of BF and she was pulling every trick in the guilt-book to coerce her daughter into doing what she wanted - i would imagine KathyM would be encouraging the OP to become independent of her mother and choose to follow her own path - being an adult, she doesn't have to do a damn thing her mother dictates, if she doesn't want to....

but because the religious angle has been brought in, suddenly, it's better to follow the religious mother-path than her own mind and conclusion?

[Eve]

On the topic of Christian Counselling. I happen to know a Christian Counsellor. Nice lady. Spent her life in mission work. It is a recognised qualification now here in the UK.

 

From what I have seen in life, I think that if one reaches out in faith then light can be gained. So even a counsellor in a secular setting could be used to provide direction. I think the answer is to try all avenues to find the right fit of Counsellor, for the OP.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[KathyM]

I'm not suggesting they're not choosing it. I'm just saying those statistics (if they are true) very much suggest that religion is purely acquired through socialization and indoctrination. Personally, I'm not much into indoctrination. But that's my value system. I think indoctrination causes things like parents who don't want their daughter's happiness unless it's under their standards, and that stuff makes me sad. *shrugs*

It's not that the parents don't want their daughter to be happy, but that they understand and are concerned about the long-term ramifications of her marrying a non-believer. I'm sure they want her to be happy, but they believe she ultimately will have serious issues if she does marry a nonbeliever. We just had a thread on here recently about the high percentage of divorces, and how the divorce rate is 50% for first marriages, but for those who share the same faith and actively practice it, the divorce rate is much lower. When I think of my own life, I would be divorced right now if it weren't for my Christian faith. I would not have weathered the difficult storms I went through if my faith was not holding me to stay in my marriage. And I'm sure that those parents are also worrying about how the grandchildren will manage if their parents are in disagreement about such a core belief. They have good reason to be worried for their daughter. I'm sure they want what is best for her and their future grandchildren.

[TaraMaiden]

Also, contrary to what I've read here, there are plenty of clinical counselors who will disclose their Christian faith..

A big news story to hit the headlines was one of a relationships counsellor who was fired from his post because his religion did not agree with homosexual relationships - and he was approached by a homosexual couple in need of his services.

He refused to counsel them, and was subsequently reported.

He tried to argue that he had been fired for his religious beliefs, but actually, what he had been fired for was sexual discrimination - which he had clearly agreed within his contract, would never be an issue, and that he was a counsellor for all and any people coming to the association.

He had basically been fired for breach of contract.

he had been given several opportunities to recant and reverse his decision, but he refused.

so, he was considered unable to do his job as outlined in the contract.

there can be no discrimination of any kind in counselling - and interests and possible hindrances MUST be declared before opting to undertake the task.

[TaraMaiden]

It's not that the parents don't want their daughter to be happy, but that they understand and are concerned about the long-term ramifications of her marrying a non-believer....... I'm sure they want what is best for her and their future grandchildren.

 

yeah.

the big problem is - it's not up to them.

she's an adult, and as such it's not their decision.

Whatever their daughter decides, their faith should be enough to offer support, without seeking to influence her in the direction they want.

Because guess what?

It's not what SHE wants.

[KathyM]

it also makes it wrong.

 

if we were discussing this from a purely a-religious angle, and religion didn't come into it - that is to say, it was merely a matter of a mother being dead-set against her daughter's choice of BF and she was pulling every trick in the guilt-book to coerce her daughter into doing what she wanted - i would imagine KathyM would be encouraging the OP to become independent of her mother and choose to follow her own path - being an adult, she doesn't have to do a damn thing her mother dictates, if she doesn't want to....

but because the religious angle has been brought in, suddenly, it's better to follow the religious mother-path than her own mind and conclusion?

If religion were not a part of this discussion or this issue, and the parents had serious reservations about a potential husband, I would advise her to consider what her parents are saying. Love is blind, and oftentimes, our friends, relatives, and people we are close to, can see things through an angle that we are not able to see. And they are also people that will be a part of the new relationship. It's not wise to ignore or disregard what our parent's reservations are. Heaven knows, if my sisters had listened to my parents when they expressed their reservations about my sisters' husbands, my sisters probably wouldn't be divorced. But do me a favor and stop talking about hypotheticals, and how you believe I would act or what I would say, since you really don't know. Speak for yourself and your own opinions, don't speak for me.

[Eve]

Final post.

 

The OP seems to be doing fine. Not much of the stuff being discussed now has anything to do with her situation but hey..

 

OP, my Hubby was not a believer when we met. I asked that he kneel with me when I prayed at night (he didn't have to say anything) .. he eventually saw for himself and got baptised etc. To be honest he held very strong beliefs which were noticably Christian in origin. He just had not made a commitment.

 

We are very happy and so are our children but there is no doubt in my mind that had we not committed our lives to God, we would not have made it. I just happened to be the one who went first.

 

The way I see it, those who belong to God belong to God and will come to Him, so nowadays I don't worry about such things.. I just stay close to God and keep it real. This seems to be what my children are also doing but in their own way. My job is to simply love and direct my children as best as I can by being a good role model in the first instance.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[ChemistQueen]

Just a quick bit of input- I'll have more to say later...

 

How am I to discern for myself whether or not faith is my number one priority? Kathy's concerns are exactly those of my parents- to a tee. I'm just hesitant to jump on that bandwagon because I'm not sure that I'd be heartbroken if my kids ended up well-adjusted but somewhat faithless. I also think that with the right support from my family (and his- he's descended from a long line of protestant missionaries. Very religious extended family....) they'd have less to worry about. Our kids would see all sides of the issue....

 

Is this a bad thing? I think it's going to depend on perspective.

[zengirl]

It's not that the parents don't want their daughter to be happy, but that they understand and are concerned about the long-term ramifications of her marrying a non-believer. I'm sure they want her to be happy, but they believe she ultimately will have serious issues if she does marry a nonbeliever. We just had a thread on here recently about the high percentage of divorces, and how the divorce rate is 50% for first marriages, but for those who share the same faith and actively practice it, the divorce rate is much lower. When I think of my own life, I would be divorced right now if it weren't for my Christian faith. I would not have weathered the difficult storms I went through if my faith was not holding me to stay in my marriage. And I'm sure that those parents are also worrying about how the grandchildren will manage if their parents are in disagreement about such a core belief. They have good reason to be worried for their daughter. I'm sure they want what is best for her and their future grandchildren.

 

From the OP's description while she shares some of her parents Catholic beliefs and is a practicing Catholic, she does not share their total value-system or agree with them on this issue and some other pretty big religious issues. The OP has reconciled her belief system with her BFs.

 

Her parents' disapproval is prejudice, pure and simple. They are causing dissonance because they believe that an agnostic (which is what he self-identifies at, so I cringe when you say "nonbeliever" as you're so apt to do---it seems like a slur, the way you say it) is not the right fit for their daughter. You back up their claims because you share their particular prejudice.

 

Now, had the OP asked whether their claims had validity, that may even be warranted, but what the OP clarified was not, "Is this a real problem?" but "How do I heal this dissonance between my family and my BF?" She is hurting not because her BF is an agnostic but because her parents so strongly disapprove.

 

FWIW, while actively sharing the same religion does decrease divorce rates, it does so much less than many other factors -- generally attributed to income, age, education, and so forth -- and (in self-reported stats) atheists and agnostics actually have the lowest rates of divorce, if you want to bring that in. So, whatevs. At any rate, I have nothing against Christianity, as I've said---I have a lot against prejudice, indoctrination, or harassment of people outside of any religion by the people inside of it.

 

Now, I believe the OP's parents are probably good people and that you probably are too, but religious prejudice like this is what gives many Christians (and other major religions) a bad name.

[zengirl]

Just a quick bit of input- I'll have more to say later...

 

How am I to discern for myself whether or not faith is my number one priority? Kathy's concerns are exactly those of my parents- to a tee. I'm just hesitant to jump on that bandwagon because I'm not sure that I'd be heartbroken if my kids ended up well-adjusted but somewhat faithless. I also think that with the right support from my family (and his- he's descended from a long line of protestant missionaries. Very religious extended family....) they'd have less to worry about. Our kids would see all sides of the issue....

 

Is this a bad thing? I think it's going to depend on perspective.

 

Oh, you're back. Well, you should decide your priorities. It seems to me like you already have a perspective and priorities on the issues at hand, but it differs somewhat from your parents. Not so much that you aren't still Catholic but that you don't have all the same opinions they do. And that's okay! It's a shame they cannot see that, but I hope they will.

[Eve]

Just a quick bit of input- I'll have more to say later...

 

How am I to discern for myself whether or not faith is my number one priority? Kathy's concerns are exactly those of my parents- to a tee. I'm just hesitant to jump on that bandwagon because I'm not sure that I'd be heartbroken if my kids ended up well-adjusted but somewhat faithless. I also think that with the right support from my family (and his- he's descended from a long line of protestant missionaries. Very religious extended family....) they'd have less to worry about. Our kids would see all sides of the issue....

 

Is this a bad thing? I think it's going to depend on perspective.

 

What? Ok. This basically means that you are also an agnostic, no?

 

H'mmm.. careful not to hide behind your partner.

 

Anyhow, I am off on holiday!!!

 

All the best,

Take care,

Eve x