Dating an Agnostic?

[TaraMaiden]

Speak for yourself and your own opinions, don't speak for me.

 

in that case, stop speaking for her parents.

[FredRutherford]

Tara,

This you and another couple of posters going after KathyM isn't productive and isn't helping anyone here, particularly the OP.

KathyM seems to know what she's talking about and sounds like she's had experience with counselors.

[zengirl]

What? Ok. This basically means that you are also an agnostic, no?

 

H'mmm.. careful not to hide behind your partner.

 

Anyhow, I am off on holiday!!!

 

All the best,

Take care,

Eve x

 

The OP believes in God. She's not an agnostic simply for accepting that she's fine with children believing what they choose.

[wuggle]

How am I to discern for myself whether or not faith is my number one priority?

 

Close your eyes, and listen. what does your heart tell you ?

 

Always listen to your inner voice, not someone else's.

 

At the end of the day , you only have yourself to answer to.

[KathyM]

From the OP's description while she shares some of her parents Catholic beliefs and is a practicing Catholic, she does not share their total value-system or agree with them on this issue and some other pretty big religious issues. The OP has reconciled her belief system with her BFs.

 

Her parents' disapproval is prejudice, pure and simple. They are causing dissonance because they believe that an agnostic (which is what he self-identifies at, so I cringe when you say "nonbeliever" as you're so apt to do---it seems like a slur, the way you say it) is not the right fit for their daughter. You back up their claims because you share their particular prejudice.

 

An agnostic is an unbeliever. He doesn't believe in God. That term is used in the Bible as someone who doesn't believe in God. It is what it is. I do back up those parents' claims. It is not a good fit. When a married couple not only don't share the most basic core value, but have the opposite core value, that's a concern that her parents understandably have.

 

Now, had the OP asked whether their claims had validity, that may even be warranted, but what the OP clarified was not, "Is this a real problem?" but "How do I heal this dissonance between my family and my BF?" She is hurting not because her BF is an agnostic but because her parents so strongly disapprove.

 

As I said, if she wants to try to reconcile this situation with her parents, she needs to seek counseling, preferably with a Christian counselor or her priest in order to work through whatever issues there are.

 

FWIW, while actively sharing the same religion does decrease divorce rates, it does so much less than many other factors -- generally attributed to income, age, education, and so forth -- and (in self-reported stats) atheists and agnostics actually have the lowest rates of divorce, if you want to bring that in.

 

Do you have any studies to back up that claim?

 

So, whatevs. At any rate, I have nothing against Christianity, as I've said---I have a lot against prejudice, indoctrination, or harassment of people outside of any religion by the people inside of it.

 

Christians get their fair share of harrassment. In fact, I'm the one being harrassed in this thread by people who have a different belief system. I'm not going around attacking other people's faith, picking apart their religious literature, ridiculing them or calling them names.

 

Now, I believe the OP's parents are probably good people and that you probably are too, but religious prejudice like this is what gives many Christians (and other major religions) a bad name.

 

You see this as prejudism--I see it as following God's word, which all Christians are instructed to do. Do you really expect me to adopt a different view than what the Bible teaches, as a practicing Christian? That really isn't a realistic expectation. I mean, what is the point of adopting a faith if you are not going to believe in or adhere to its teachings?

[wuggle]

You see this as prejudism--I see it as following God's word, which all Christians are instructed to do. Do you really expect me to adopt a different view than what the Bible teaches, as a practicing Christian? That really isn't a realistic expectation. I mean, what is the point of adopting a faith if you are not going to believe in or adhere to its teachings?

 

Did your god give you your brain, reasoning and intellect ? if so use it.

 

Think about exactly what it is you 'believe' in. If, after applying your god given reason, logic and common sense, you honestly believe that God created everything, that s\he (whether guy sitting on cloud with big grey beard or some ethereal spirit or whatever) split himself into three seperate parts, one spirit the other human, and if you then believe (after applying all your powers of reasoning and logic and common sense that is your birthright) that he then had one part of himself killed to free all of humanity from 'sin', if you believe that that little piece of bread actually becomes the body of god and not just a symbol, if you believe that you are supposed to eat this piece of god and that is ok, if you believe that you are cursed with sin from the moment you are born.....

 

if you believe all this then fine...

m

but only after you give it some serious, objective thought, using the very tools that your god saw fit to imbue in his chosen mammal.

 

Surely the biggest sin is to just believe and not think for yourself, to refuse to use the greatest gift that your god gave you.

 

If I was god I would be VERY angry if you didn't use the greatest gift I had given you

Edited March 13, 2012 by wuggle
passion doesn't replace a spell checker !!

[norajane]

If religion were not a part of this discussion or this issue, and the parents had serious reservations about a potential husband, I would advise her to consider what her parents are saying. Love is blind, and oftentimes, our friends, relatives, and people we are close to, can see things through an angle that we are not able to see. And they are also people that will be a part of the new relationship. It's not wise to ignore or disregard what our parent's reservations are. Heaven knows, if my sisters had listened to my parents when they expressed their reservations about my sisters' husbands, my sisters probably wouldn't be divorced. But do me a favor and stop talking about hypotheticals, and how you believe I would act or what I would say, since you really don't know. Speak for yourself and your own opinions, don't speak for me.

 

But her parents are not objecting because they think he's an ass and would be a bad husband or father. They are objecting solely on religion. That's it. They probably hardly know him, nor have any interest in getting to know him.

 

And agnostics hold that the existence of God is unknown. Atheists don't believe there is God.

Edited March 13, 2012 by norajane

[TaraMaiden]

Tara,

This you and another couple of posters going after KathyM isn't productive and isn't helping anyone here, particularly the OP.

KathyM seems to know what she's talking about and sounds like she's had experience with counselors.[/quote

Actually, i also know what i'm talking about, and i've been a counsellor.

 

the op has studiously avoided responding to KathyM other than to say she's coming from exactly the same standpoint as her parents.

which is precisely what she doesn't agree with....

So, it's probably helping more than we think.

[KathyM]

Did your god give you your brain, reasoning and intellect ? if so use it.

 

I am.

 

Think about exactly what it is you 'believe' in.

 

You think I haven't given my beliefs a lot of thought, challenged them and come to my own conclusion? I have given it a lot of thought. Consulted with many people. Explored the different angles, and experienced for myself the power of God in my life and in the lives of people that I know. I've experienced miracles in my life and in the lives of others that I know. There is no other explanation for it.

 

If, after applying your god given reason, logic and common sense, you honestly believe that God created everything, that s\he (whether guy sitting on cloud with big grey beard or some ethereal spirit or whatever) split himself into three seperate parts, one spirit the other human, and if you then believe (after applying all your powers of reasoning and logic and common sense that is your birthright) that he then had one part of himself killed to free all of humanity from 'sin', if you believe that that little piece of bread actually becomes the body of god and not just a symbol, if you believe that you are supposed to eat this piece of god and that is ok, if you believe that you are cursed with sin from the moment you are born.....

 

if you believe all this then fine...

m

but only after you give it some serious, objective thought, using the very tools that your god saw fit to imbue in his chosen mammal.

 

Surely the biggest sin is to just believe and not think for yourself, to refuse to use the greatest gift that your god gave you.

 

If I was god I would be VERY angry if you didn't use the greatest gift I had given you

I have given my beliefs a lot of thought. And you are mistaken in what you just described. God did not "split" as you called it. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always existed. He sent His Son to reconcile with His people, to reconnect with them when their sin has separated them from Him. God hates sin, and He needed this act to be able to reconcile himself with the sin that we have. But because He loves us so much, He took upon our sin and punished it through His own son. That is what He felt He needed to do in order to be reconciled with His people. He needed the sin to be punished, since He hates it so much. His purpose to send His Son was to reconcile with the world and to take on the punishment that He needed to give. The bread and wine are a symbol of Christ's body and blood, which we take to remember Christ's sacrifice. Christ's coming was prophesized in the Old Testament, and the promise was fulfilled, exactly how it was prophesized. Christ's existence is well documented, even in secular literature and records. The only difference being that some believe that Christ was a prophet, rather than the Son of God. But based on prophesy, eye witness accounts of hundreds of people, and the miracles I myself have seen through people that I know, and in my own life, there's no doubt in my mind, that He is the Son of God, and I have seen plenty in my life and others to know that I am on the right track on this. I've given this a tremendous amount of thought. There is no other explanation that makes better sense.

[wuggle]

The bread and wine are a symbol of Christ's body and blood, which we take to remember Christ's sacrifice.

 

I cited this as an issue because when I was being 'brought up' a roman catholic I was told that this was definitely NOT just symbolic, I was told I had to 'believe' that this peice of bread had actually been transformed into the very body of Christ.

 

As I grew older my intellect told me that this made very little sense and was wrong. If god existed he gave me the ability to figure this out. Maybe God wanted me to find out he doesn't exist ?

 

There is no other explanation that makes better sense.

 

Then we disagree.

 

As I said earlier, if you have used your god given intellect and this all makes sense to you, then that's cool.

 

One of my most treasured possesions (apart from my intellect) is my uncertainty. I never again want to be certain of these truths.

 

ps just because you make all your posts bold does not give them any more authority, it is generally just considered agressive and bad mannered.

[shorty7]

You see this as prejudism--I see it as following God's word, which all Christians are instructed to do. Do you really expect me to adopt a different view than what the Bible teaches, as a practicing Christian? That really isn't a realistic expectation. I mean, what is the point of adopting a faith if you are not going to believe in or adhere to its teachings?

 

Kathy-- There's nothing wrong with following the word of God or the Bible as a practicing Christian or Catholic, but don't you think discrediting and refusing to acknowledge a person, before getting to know them as a human being first before "the religious factor" kicking in, is a sign of prejudice? I think that's what zengirl is getting at.

 

The OP's parents are not even allowing themselves to get to know him. That's what is causing the OP pain and suffering--the eminent attachment to ignorance and blatant prejudice that her parents are holding onto so dearly, that it's causing dissonance to anyone in her family that dares falling in love with someone who's not Catholic. How in the hell is that at all Christian? In this day and age. Really. Surely you must understand that over time, the expectations of those that lived EONS ago have become unrealistic to apply to our society now? We can get over the skin color thing and the political differences (poorly/barely sometimes, but still), but we can't have a conversation and be civil to ONE person just because he doesn't believe in a diety that can't be proven of its existence other than a collection of story books written by men just some 2 millenniums ago?

 

Wow.

 

Didn't the Bible say to love thy neighbor and does it not have a disclosure about welcoming people of other faiths to explore your faith and belief system? That's why you have a mission stated in the Bible to help others come to your God, doesn't it? And by the same token, should it not be at least paid the same respect that a Christian learn the others' background as well? I mean, we are in the 21st century, aren't we? Why are you letting some old scripture written a mere 20 centuries ago, by men (and then translated from Hebrew to Greek to Latin and then finally to English--oh gawd, think of the "Lost in translation" arguments that can be found in this!) getting to you from understanding a basic and civil, human right? The Bible was written by MEN, Kathy, not God. And even that, all parts are not written by the same man (nor in the same language, might I add!), therefore, conflicting and flawed in logic in several different passages. It is a book written in a way that those acting in proclamation of "God's words" do so more in fear and hate than they do out of love and compassion.

 

It is that fear and hate that is compelling the OP's parents to repent her bf, not because of by any value of his beliefs causing problems with the relationship itself. Shouldn't the parents at least trust their daughter in her early 30's to be able to find a compatible mate of good nature, that she has the ability on her own to find someone that will enhance her financial security, keep her happy, and uphold righteous ethics with a healthy belief of similar family values, in order to sustain a happy marriage life for herself? If the OP was in her early~mid 20's, I can see your point, but she's a grown woman. She completely understands and states the likelihood of conflict in beliefs and values but has expressed that they openly discuss and have a healthy debate about it. As far as I can tell, she's being a lot more mature about her views about her relationship with her God than her parents are with people in general. And the sad part about it is that she knows by and large, her parents aren't going to change and the way you are putting it, is what anyone of her parents' circle would tell her: "don't date people who aren't Catholic." What kind of a solution is that?!

 

I agree with you counseling is probably the best option of this particular predicament but I think I agree to disagree with you that not every thing the Bible says should run a family so distraught that it causes unhappiness in a family member. A family should work together to overcome those differences and love one another regardless.

 

and here's me, a practising Buddhist.....!

 

I've heard from other "converts" that Catholics have an easier time transitioning into the Buddhist practices (and then in time, faith), than it is for people of other Christian faith.

 

Kudos to you, Tara. Everyone else, sorry for the long post and de-railing the topic a little.

[OpenBook]

In a possibly awkward attempt to demonstrate to the OP that it's OK for people to have different opinions about their religion (and hopefully give her a few ideas to open up some non-hostile dialog with her family about this subject?), I'll take on the good man wuggle...

 

I cited this as an issue because when I was being 'brought up' a roman catholic I was told that this was definitely NOT just symbolic, I was told I had to 'believe' that this peice of bread had actually been transformed into the very body of Christ.

 

I'm certain that God's definition of "body of Christ" is different from our human definition of it. I never got the idea that the Eucharist was a form of cannabalism. It was more of a physical act helping us to visualize "absorbing" Christ, bringing Him into our hearts, allowing Him live inside & through us.

 

I'm also aware of my own limitations in understanding one of the greatest mysteries of the Bible. So I acknowledge I could be completely wrong here.

 

As I grew older my intellect told me that this made very little sense and was wrong. If god existed he gave me the ability to figure this out. Maybe God wanted me to find out he doesn't exist ?

 

I firmly believe that God exists, but there's a whole lot of things He hasn't given me the ability to figure out, even though I got the same faculties as you.

 

One of my most treasured possesions (apart from my intellect) is my uncertainty. I never again want to be certain of these truths.

 

I'm a Christian, and I am uncertain too. My faith is totally based on hope. I know I'm going way out on a limb with it (my faith), but it's the only meaningful hope I've found.

 

The uncertainty remains. I'll keep on asking the questions. And I hope others keep asking them too.

[wuggle]

The uncertainty remains. I'll keep on asking the questions. And I hope others keep asking them too.

 

Then you have my respect

[shorty7]

Oh and to the OP--

 

Kudos to you for trying to work this out. Really. I understand how rigid a family you must come from and commend your bravery to go through with the relationship by holding a steady and calm outlook on your religious differences and willingness to go through with that.

 

Just to offer some perspective:

 

I teach Dharma School kids (age 3 ~5) on Sundays at my local Buddhist temple. One child comes from a family which her father is Russian Jew and from what I understand, the mother was brought up in a very strict Roman Catholic environment. The child (3 years old) is as well-adjusted and happy as can ever be. She enjoys coming to church on Sundays and has a very good distinction (from what I can tell) of what's right and wrong.

 

I went through a Catholic Daycare/Preschool, the same Buddhist Kindergarten described above, and then a Japanese Seventh-Day Avent Language school (M-F after-school private school) until I was 13. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I'm happily committed to my LTR, I haven't done any drugs or committed crime. I earn my own, am independent, volunteer on weekends that I can, and play video games on nights just to take the edge off when s*it hits the fan once in a while at the office.

 

People eventually grow up adjusting to whatever faith they think suits their lifestyle and beliefs. I go to Buddhist church now because the belief that it offers allows me to live my life in peace at most and I have a sense of belonging and comfort at times when I feel lost. (Like losing my Grandmother or my whole family on my mother's side being in Sendai when the Tsunami hit last year).

 

I'm sure you'll find your happy medium. In regards to your parents, it would be wise to consult a counselor, but I don't think change in their attitude will come easy. For your bravery and willingness to over come that for love, I send you best wishes and luck.

[KathyM]

I cited this as an issue because when I was being 'brought up' a roman catholic I was told that this was definitely NOT just symbolic, I was told I had to 'believe' that this peice of bread had actually been transformed into the very body of Christ.

 

As I grew older my intellect told me that this made very little sense and was wrong. If god existed he gave me the ability to figure this out. Maybe God wanted me to find out he doesn't exist ?

 

 

 

Then we disagree.

 

As I said earlier, if you have used your god given intellect and this all makes sense to you, then that's cool.

 

One of my most treasured possesions (apart from my intellect) is my uncertainty. I never again want to be certain of these truths.

 

ps just because you make all your posts bold does not give them any more authority, it is generally just considered agressive and bad mannered.

I'm only bolding my posts in order to set them apart from the original text--so that it is clear what the answers are to each segment. Since I don't know how to do multiple quotes within one post, I don't know of any other way to differentiate the answers from the original text. It was not to add emphasis, but only to differentiate.

 

The Catholic faith differs a little on some minor things than other Christian faiths. One being the bread and wine. When Christ himself gave the bread and wine to His diciples at the Last Supper, He said, "Take and eat this. This is my body and blood which is given for you. Do this for the remembrance of me. He said himself, "This is my body". Obviously, it was not his flesh--it was bread, but it symbolized His body. When Christians who are not Catholic eat the bread during communion, they eat it as a symbol of Christ's body, and eat it to remember Christ's sacrifice. Catholics may believe that the bread actually becomes Christ's body, but Christ is no longer flesh and spirit, He is only spirit and I see no reason why this symbol can't be considered now His body. Christ said "This is my body". They are taking that literally, and I don't have a problem with that. Why do you feel that Christ's body can only be in the form of flesh? I personally believe it to be a symbol of Christ's body, but that's really a small difference in interpretation.

[quankanne]

I'm finally in a situation in which someone respects me. He understands all of my weird little idiosyncrasies. I don't have to hide anything from him. When he does come to Mass with me, he actually pays attention to what's going on, and we talk about the sermon and our thoughts after. That's something that none of the Catholics ever did. I feel like this "agnostic heathen" is getting the picture of what Jesus taught and stood for a million times more than a lot of very religious people that I know- and he doesn't have to be living in fear of the fires of Hell to follow those teachings. He's got an innate sense of right and wrong and justice and mercy that I find absolutely beautiful.

 

and here is your answer. When you find someone who loves you enough to want the best for you, who will put aside his own personal beliefs to ensure you have what you need to get you to heaven, so to speak, then this is man for you. Because no matter how good someone looks on paper as the "right" match, the respect your partner has for you and your beliefs are what will keep your relationship going long after everything else has fallen kaput.

 

back history: Raised in a Mexican Catholic family, and married to a lapsed Episcopalian redneck from another state. First words out of his mouth when he began talking marriage were, "And we'll raise our kids Catholic." Coming from someone who is stubborn in his beliefs, that's a HUGE concession to make, as was his decision to get his previous marriages annulled so we could have ours convalidated by the Church. Does he understand fully what that process is about? Not really ... even I as a cradle Catholic had a hard time wrapping my mind around it, but it was something he was willing to do for our marriage because he realized it was keeping me from certain sacraments.

 

That is what your parents will eventually come to appreciate about this man, should you decide to marry, because they'll recognize the goodness in his heart and his desire to ensure you live by your faith. And if they don't ... well, slap my mouth, then they're the true heathens in this case.

[KathyM]

Kathy-- There's nothing wrong with following the word of God or the Bible as a practicing Christian or Catholic, but don't you think discrediting and refusing to acknowledge a person, before getting to know them as a human being first before "the religious factor" kicking in, is a sign of prejudice? I think that's what zengirl is getting at.

 

I think it's wrong to treat people of other faiths badly. I think we are to be kind to others, regardless of their faith. If the parents are treating this man badly, then that is wrong. But that is not the impression I got. The parents are upset because their daughter wants to go against her faith and marry someone who does not share her primary core belief. For people whose faith is important to them, this is a serious issue, and it's understandable her parents would be concerned. The parents are not rejecting this man as a person, but rejecting him as a potential husband for their daughter.

 

The OP's parents are not even allowing themselves to get to know him. That's what is causing the OP pain and suffering--the eminent attachment to ignorance and blatant prejudice that her parents are holding onto so dearly, that it's causing dissonance to anyone in her family that dares falling in love with someone who's not Catholic. How in the hell is that at all Christian? In this day and age. Really.

 

Getting to know this man is not going to change the fact that he is an unbeliever. I doubt the parents have anything against him as a person. He's probably a nice guy, but that doesn't make their reservations about his lack of faith any easier. I can empathize with these parents because I went through something similar with one of my sons. He was exclusively dating a woman for two years whose parents had different beliefs. Her mother was Jewish and her father was Christian. Because of this difference, she grew up being confused and not knowing what she believed. I was always nice to her, and realized that, ultimately, it was my son's decision to make, but I did counsel him on considering the long-term consequences of that relationship, what it would mean for their children, etc. (They were very serious about each other). They eventually broke up over some other issue. But this is a very serious issue and concern that Christian parents have, because they do want their children to have a strong marriage, someone who shares their child's faith, someone who can be a strong spiritual leader for the family. Those things are important to keep a family strong.

 

Surely you must understand that over time, the expectations of those that lived EONS ago have become unrealistic to apply to our society now? We can get over the skin color thing and the political differences (poorly/barely sometimes, but still), but we can't have a conversation and be civil to ONE person just because he doesn't believe in a diety that can't be proven of its existence other than a collection of story books written by men just some 2 millenniums

Wow.

 

The OP has not stated that her parents treat him badly, only that they are against her relationship with him because he is agnostic. I don't know what their conversations have been with him, but I would say it's time to sit down with him and explain their concerns, preferably in the presence of a priest or other Christian counselor.

 

Didn't the Bible say to love thy neighbor and does it not have a disclosure about welcoming people of other faiths to explore your faith and belief system? That's why you have a mission stated in the Bible to help others come to your God, doesn't it? And by the same token, should it not be at least paid the same respect that a Christian learn the others' background as well? I mean, we are in the 21st century, aren't we?

 

We are called to love thy neighbor. That is not the same as marrying them. The Bible is very clear that we are to not marry an unbeliever. We are to welcome unbelievers, be kind to them, discuss our faith openly with them. That doesn't mean that we should also marry them.

 

Why are you letting some old scripture written a mere 20 centuries ago, by men (and then translated from Hebrew to Greek to Latin and then finally to English--oh gawd, think of the "Lost in translation" arguments that can be found in this!) getting to you from understanding a basic and civil, human right? The Bible was written by MEN, Kathy, not God. And even that, all parts are not written by the same man (nor in the same language, might I add!), therefore, conflicting and flawed in logic in several different passages. It is a book written in a way that those acting in proclamation of "God's words" do so more in fear and hate than they do out of love and compassion.

 

The scriptures were written by prophets, Christ's diciples, and followers of God. Their writings were inspired by God. Many of the quotes therein came from God himself. Nothing in the Bible has been lost in translation. If you take the original versions, they are the same as more recent copies when translated. The meaning is the same. The Bible is the one true unadulterated, unchanged writing that has stayed the same in its passages for 2,000 years.

 

It is that fear and hate that is compelling the OP's parents to repent her bf, not because of by any value of his beliefs causing problems with the relationship itself. Shouldn't the parents at least trust their daughter in her early 30's to be able to find a compatible mate of good nature, that she has the ability on her own to find someone that will enhance her financial security, keep her happy, and uphold righteous ethics with a healthy belief of similar family values, in order to sustain a happy marriage life for herself? If the OP was in her early~mid 20's, I can see your point, but she's a grown woman. She completely understands and states the likelihood of conflict in beliefs and values but has expressed that they openly discuss and have a healthy debate about it. As far as I can tell, she's being a lot more mature about her views about her relationship with her God than her parents are with people in general. And the sad part about it is that she knows by and large, her parents aren't going to change and the way you are putting it, is what anyone of her parents' circle would tell her: "don't date people who aren't Catholic." What kind of a solution is that?!

 

It's what the Bible calls us to do--chose a mate who shares our faith. You may not think it is important, but God does. And there is a good reason for it.

 

I agree with you counseling is probably the best option of this particular predicament but I think I agree to disagree with you that not every thing the Bible says should run a family so distraught that it causes unhappiness in a family member. A family should work together to overcome those differences and love one another regardless.

 

It's ultimately the daughter's decision to make. I don't believe the parents should be harsh or nasty and will ultimately need to respect their daughter's right to choose her own partner, and be supportive of that union if it does take place, but I don't blame them for voicing their concerns and being very concerned about this issue. We don't know what behavior these parents have taken, only that they are against her marrying the guy.

 

 

 

I've heard from other "converts" that Catholics have an easier time transitioning into the Buddhist practices (and then in time, faith), than it is for people of other Christian faith.

 

Kudos to you, Tara. Everyone else, sorry for the long post and de-railing the topic a little.

Why do Buddhists, atheists and other faiths believe they should be counseling a Christian on a decision about faith and inter-faith marriage? The OP's question is something that should be presented to someone who shares the OPs faith, preferably a priest, to counsel her.

[Diamonds&Rust]

He had basically been fired for breach of contract.

It sounded like he should have been fired for breach of contract. It's important, I think, to recognize that he did not behave in accordance with any religious faith in choosing to discriminate here. There's no official prohibition anywhere of rendering services to people who identify as homosexual, if anything a gay person seeking mental health services is aligned with the unfortunate pathology of homosexuality as a whole.

 

But, back to the question of Christian counselors in general, they certainly exist. I've never known anyone to turn people away from their practice except for benign and commonplace reasons, certainly no sweeping generalizations. Interestingly, I know far fewer practicing Christians who practice individual psychotherapy, but that could be a regional thing. The ones who do are pretty outspoken about it, it's not a taboo thing; it's a form of cultural competency, some people understandably prefer a therapist who shares their faith.

Do you really expect me to adopt a different view than what the Bible teaches, as a practicing Christian?

It's interesting that you are experiencing persecution on this thread. It seems like others also feel like you're being ganged up on. I just can't seem to see it that way.

 

You're here pushing an agenda that you refuse to take responsibility for, instead saying that your interpretations are divine. What you've learned from the Bible is presented as what the Bible teaches, as though the Bible is an immortal animal that can field questions and transcend all of the limitations of ordinary text. You act incredulous when non-Catholics (or people you've accused of not being Catholic) offer counsel, but your Biblical fundamentalism differs tremendously from traditional Roman Catholic scholarship. If you don't see how the way you present your beliefs are offensive, I'm at least curious how you arrive at the conclusion that you're the victim here. The only one who maintains that the OP is seeking spiritual counsel is you.

Why do Buddhists, atheists and other faiths believe they should be counseling a Christian on a decision about faith and inter-faith marriage? The OP's question is something that should be presented to someone who shares the OPs faith, preferably a priest, to counsel her.

 

(emphasis added)

The OP's question is instead presented as the OP intended. Your use of "preferably" here reveals only your personal preferences.

[TaraMaiden]

<huge snip>

I've heard from other "converts" that Catholics have an easier time transitioning into the Buddhist practices (and then in time, faith), than it is for people of other Christian faith.

 

Kudos to you, Tara. Everyone else, sorry for the long post and de-railing the topic a little.

to respond to this specific comment:

It's actually much harder.

Buddhism doesn't have a god - and i would add here, that when the Buddha was questioned on the possible existence of an almighty, omnipresent and omnipotent god - he remained silent.

Not because he didn't know, but because constant debate and questioning on such a matter is completely unproductive, and could never conclude the question one way or the other... it's what's known as an unconjecturable, (of which there are 4) and each must conclude the answer for themselves, according to personal investigation and research.

But the transition from a Theistic religion, to a calling that has no god - is actually quite scary.

in a nutshell, theistically, you surrender all to 'something' "out there". (People always look up and skywards when they talk about god....I don't know why) and speak about god's plan for them, or it being 'his' will.

Buddhism brings it all back to "In here". the buck stops here, and everything we think, say and do, is down to us. There is no retribution - but there is no forgiveness, confession, absolution, either. Buddhists have to 'suck it up' and be 100% responsible, 100% of the time. There is no "oh my god i am so sorry, forgive me...." it's down to us.

We have the teachings of the Buddha to guide, instruct and advise, but the bottom line is - we have to deal with it.

and when you've been used to a lifetime diet of 'just give it all up to god' - that's hard to implement. But at the same time, it's extremely liberating, gratifying and invigorating.

I'm me - for me. That's a thing to celebrate with jubilance!

 

I'm certain that God's definition of "body of Christ" is different from our human definition of it. I never got the idea that the Eucharist was a form of cannabalism. It was more of a physical act helping us to visualize "absorbing" Christ, bringing Him into our hearts, allowing Him live inside & through us.

No, i have to say, wuggle is spot-on with this.

The catholic church teaches that at a specific moment during the mass, the wafers and the wine turn into the body and blood of Christ. it's an absolutely ridiculous premise to teach, and I've yet to meet any catholic who has truly, really honestly and sincerely gotten their heads around this teaching. We are supposed to firmly believe that we are partaking of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

I really don't think i can carry on discussing it - it's just too bizarre, beyond words. but wuggle's right on this one.

 

I'm only bolding my posts in order to set them apart from the original text--so that it is clear what the answers are to each segment. Since I don't know how to do multiple quotes within one post, I don't know of any other way to differentiate the answers from the original text. It was not to add emphasis, but only to differentiate.

KathyM:Look at each individual post:

bottom right, is what looks like a paper with text on it, and two black speech-marks. there's also a 'plus' sign.

scroll down, and as you come to each post you'd like to comment on, click on that icon.

the plus sign, turns to a minus.

when you've 'gathered' all the posts you want to reply to, keep going down, and hit the 'post reply' button on the left.

your post box will come up - with every single post you clicked on.

As you start at the top, you can delete the irrelevant text from each post, to focus on the part you want.

if you want to sub-divide a person's comment, just insert the [-quote-] and/or [-/quote-] within square brackets, where you need them.... (I put dashes in so you could see what I mean....)

 

 

Why do Buddhists, atheists and other faiths believe they should be counseling a Christian on a decision about faith and inter-faith marriage? The OP's question is something that should be presented to someone who shares the OPs faith, preferably a priest, to counsel her.

Speaking for myself, because most Buddhists have 'been there' and can see both sides of the argument.

i have been a truly devout practising Catholic, I've been a counsellor and now I'm Buddhist.

with that amount of experience, why should I NOT feel my input might be of some value?

a preferable priest (according to you - which is in fact, even more biased) would only see matters from a theological angle.

at least, i have a broader spectrum of experience to start from.

[Eve]

The OP believes in God. She's not an agnostic simply for accepting that she's fine with children believing what they choose.

 

Nope, I would say the whole set up described is more about tradition than faith. I have seen this a lot in certain circles.

 

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TaraMaiden]

I'd thought you'd gone on holiday...?

Waiting for the postcard.....

 

What time's the flight?

I'd hate LS to be responsible for your missing it.

 

Facebook is already a curse, don't say LS is going the same way....

[zengirl]

Nope, I would say the whole set up described is more about tradition than faith. I have seen this a lot in certain circles.

 

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

You think you can tell the OP whether she believes in God or not? OP is a practicing Catholic, by her own admission.

 

No one has any right to identify her as anything else. Nor does it make sense to me that you'd interpret her statement that she is fine with her children selecting their own faith or no faith to mean her belief is any less real to her.

[zengirl]

An agnostic is an unbeliever. He doesn't believe in God. That term is used in the Bible as someone who doesn't believe in God. It is what it is. I do back up those parents' claims. It is not a good fit. When a married couple not only don't share the most basic core value, but have the opposite core value, that's a concern that her parents understandably have.

 

Perhaps the OP's faith is not her core value. She can choose how much or how little her faith defines HER life. I understand the term is used in The Bible. Many other terms that have been written down throughout history are thrown around as slurs. I think that it's only polite to refer to someone in the manner that they refer to themselves. Her BF is an agnostic, which actually means he does not believe in God, nor disbelieve in God, but feels there is no way to know. A "nonbeliever," by the meaning of the word makes no sense in that context, as it suggests (in a connotative manner) he has disbelief. What he has is essentially a vacuum.

 

Do you have any studies to back up that claim?

 

Yes, I re-checked it yesterday. It's easily searchable.

 

Divorce Rate by Age or Religion | Divorce Rate 2011

 

Note we have no solid data on many low % religions in America (Hindu, Buddhism, even Islam, etc). I'd bet money we'll find out shortly Islam actually is linked to lower divorce rates myself, but MMV. Christianity is not.

 

Christians get their fair share of harrassment. In fact, I'm the one being harrassed in this thread by people who have a different belief system. I'm not going around attacking other people's faith, picking apart their religious literature, ridiculing them or calling them names.

 

You're not being harassed for your Christianity. You're being criticized for your opinions, which many feel are intolerant. No one is attacking faith. People are sharing their own interpretations of biblical literature, which we are free to do. Anyone is free to read and discuss the literature of my religion as well. Faith is not required for reading comprehension.

 

You see this as prejudism--I see it as following God's word, which all Christians are instructed to do. Do you really expect me to adopt a different view than what the Bible teaches, as a practicing Christian? That really isn't a realistic expectation. I mean, what is the point of adopting a faith if you are not going to believe in or adhere to its teachings?

 

Then your God is prejudiced, pure and simple, if he's told you to judge someone solely based on their religion. I know many Christians who have evolved beyond this view and understand that tolerance is a virtue. Honestly, I think if Jesus were alive today, based on his presentation in the Bible, he would be much more tolerant than you are.

 

You're here pushing an agenda that you refuse to take responsibility for, instead saying that your interpretations are divine. What you've learned from the Bible is presented as what the Bible teaches, as though the Bible is an immortal animal that can field questions and transcend all of the limitations of ordinary text. You act incredulous when non-Catholics (or people you've accused of not being Catholic) offer counsel, but your Biblical fundamentalism differs tremendously from traditional Roman Catholic scholarship. If you don't see how the way you present your beliefs are offensive, I'm at least curious how you arrive at the conclusion that you're the victim here. The only one who maintains that the OP is seeking spiritual counsel is you.

 

This is how I feel as well. The OP has stated she's not seeking spiritual counsel. I do not see how further hounding her with the ideas that are hurting her (the ideas of her parents) helps her move forward.

[sweetjasmine]

Why do Buddhists, atheists and other faiths believe they should be counseling a Christian on a decision about faith and inter-faith marriage? The OP's question is something that should be presented to someone who shares the OPs faith, preferably a priest, to counsel her.

 

...because she posted a thread on an open message board!

 

If she wanted the advice and counsel of a priest, she'd go to her church. She posted on the internet. I don't understand why you take issue with the fact that people other than Catholics have responded when the person asking for advice doesn't seem to mind. That's awfully presumptuous, IMO. If she's open to opinions from other 'heathens', so what?

[zengirl]

...because she posted a thread on an open message board!

 

If she wanted the advice and counsel of a priest, she'd go to her church. She posted on the internet. I don't understand why you take issue with the fact that people other than Catholics have responded when the person asking for advice doesn't seem to mind. That's awfully presumptuous, IMO. If she's open to opinions from other 'heathens', so what?

 

Right. Additionally, since she presumably still values the opinion and thoughts of her BF (and he hers), she has clearly not decided, in general, that the only thoughts she'd like to entertain are that of Christians. The OP seems very open to a myriad of ideas, and the dissonance she's having are with people who ARE closed-minded, not open-minded.

 

Kathy, as I understand it, you're not Catholic anyway. The question could easily be limited to, "Why do non-Catholics think they can counsel the OP?"