How cruel was your fWS during the affair?

[OpenBook]

According to my ex-wife, I was both.

 

Among all the emails she sent me during the divorce were accusations of "leading her on" during the period of the affair, since I had become "unusually helpful" around the house getting on with jobs outside without constant nagging, and "attentive and interested" in the children's lives and well-being, as well as securing a promotion at work and several professional accolades which translated into a flood of international invitations. All of these, she concluded, demonstrated an investment in "our" future. She deduced that I might yet make a satisfactory husband.

 

Were it not for the unspeakable cruelty of my "rejection" of her she accused me of in other emails. How I failed to respond to her attempts at intimacy, her weight loss, her cutting back on her activities to spend more time at home "as a couple", her new hairstyle. How my steadfast lack of interest, sexual or otherwise, led to a complete collapse of her self-esteem, even as I was packing my bags to leave her. So cruel, yet in other ways so loving and kind.

 

I think one sees what one wishes to see. Especially with hindsight.

 

Good point Radagast. And isn't it interesting how it takes two to tango in a marriage and determine its outcome... even when that tango becomes a hideous and horrible nightmare.

 

That, combined with the previous "Sleeping with the enemy" scenarios described in this thread, makes me ever so grateful to not be married! <<<shudder>>>

[donnamaybe]

Some people aren't fooling anyone. Even changing genders, their vitriol toward the BS comes shining through.

...and never wanes one . single . iota.

[donnamaybe]

It's so amazing to me that even years after the fact, they still feel the need to denigrate the BS. YEARS after. Maybe they haven't fully healed, I guess.

I've heard that keeping a journal helps one work through things. Perhaps a blog might be of assistance.

[freestyle]

One thing I get from you is that it takes a very strong couple to go through what you have and come out the other side. And I've heard that a true reconciliation is rare. You must have a strong base that may have been invisible to you at certain points on your road but it was always there.

 

It's good to hear these positive posts from you towards your husband and your marriage. I have to admit that I've often wondered how you could talk so much about the negative if you truly have repaired and recovered your marriage. I have also wondered that about others that have reconciled and post about the betrayal continuously. But I've never been through it so what do I know?

 

I'm glad you started this in the wrong forum or else I never would have seen it. The thread has been enlightening for the most part.

 

 

 

I'd like to expound on this concept a little further.

(because it's gotten the wheel in my head turning...)

 

(BTW-this is NOT directed at you, Ms. Red or intending to find fault with your post, actually I see it as a very thoughtful & kind post. The sentence I bolded is what I wish to address, because other posters have accused Spark of "not being healed".)

 

I wonder if it's possible---that talking about the negative impacts in the aftermath, has actually HELPED Spark (and her marriage)to heal faster?

 

Maybe because she's here---talking, sharing,discussing, helping others---it's reducing the impact of pain.

 

IMO, it's a common, knee-jerk presumption for many people to assume that someone talking about a negative event in their life is "dwelling" or "stuck" or "needs to *move on* already". In fact, I've noticed that attitude becoming more and more prevalent in today's society. "Get over it" has turned into a modern mantra.

 

Sadly, people who have been through emotional trauma are getting stigmatized , because of that attitude. Which then can potentially delay their healing----because they're being criticized for their feelings.The invalidation can actually set them back.

 

And I can't get on too high of a horse myself, because I used to be a member of that choir, singing the "Get over it" song. I was hasty to judge someone as "just being a drama queen" or "needing to get past this already"

 

It wasn't until I experienced a deluge of traumatic events (including being betrayed) in my own life----that I really understood just how deeply the pain can permeate every aspect of one's life.

 

 

From what I've leaned about trauma recovery, a person who has experienced significant emotional trauma in their life--HAS to talk about it.

And talk about it.And talk some more......

 

Bad memories aren't like chalk on a sidewalk that gets washed away with one good rainstorm.They're more like indelible ink, written on the mind & heart. The memory will always be there. The only way to reduce the impact of those memories is to talk them through, gain deeper understanding of the "hows & 'whys".

 

Then----eventually the pain can be assimilated--the sharp edges softened by understanding & compassion. Hopefully diluted by creating new, positive memories. But the pain will always be there.

 

Once a vase has been broken, even if it's glued back together with the utmost care---the cracks will always be visible.

[xxoo]

The sentence I bolded is what I wish to address, because other posters have accused Spark of "not being healed".)

 

I wonder if it's possible---that talking about the negative impacts in the aftermath, has actually HELPED Spark (and her marriage)to heal faster?.

 

I feel like this is directed at me, and that my intentions were misunderstood. I didn't intend to accuse Spark of anything regarding her healing. She addressed my questions fully, and I thank her for that.

 

I agree that talking about it would help healing. That suggests to me, however, that the need to talk about it would fade when healing is complete. That might not be the case, or it may simply be that healing is ongoing.

[freestyle]

I feel like this is directed at me, and that my intentions were misunderstood. I didn't intend to accuse Spark of anything regarding her healing. She addressed my questions fully, and I thank her for that.

 

I agree that talking about it would help healing. That suggests to me, however, that the need to talk about it would fade when healing is complete. That might not be the case, or it may simply be that healing is ongoing.

 

Actually I didn't even have anyone specific in mind when I wrote that post.

So, my intention was not to direct this at you, or anyone in particular.

I had to go back & read your posts in this thread again---& IMO, you came across as respectful, not critical.(as are all of your posts that I've read--I don't recall you ever being unkind, or snarky)

 

 

 

I've seen Spark, as well as other BS's under fire for "not having moved on" numerous times over the years. That pattern is what I wanted to address.

For general purposes. To defend the right of any & every BS to vent their feelings as they need to.For as long as they need to.

 

What I wanted to challenge, by writing my post---is the tendency for

many posters/society at large to impose a time limit on the healing of an individual. As if there was some cookie-cutter formula.

 

I also wanted to point that we can cause a person even more pain, if we come across as if we're holding a stopwatch on their feelings...

 

Like I said, I've done it too---I've been guilty of judging/questioning the progress of other people's healing.

I didn't realize that I was putting a person in pain on the defensive--

and adding to their pain---by questioning how long it was taking for them to process it.

I never realized how much it can hurt someone until it was done to me.

[Spark1111]

Spark,

 

My opinion is that possibly some ow/om refuse to believe that they may have been lied to, they may have been used, and they may have been 'tricked' (there has been instances of people feeling they were tricked into believing the affair partner was single, leaving or unhappy).

 

In my opinion, some people possibly do not want to "see/hear" that a couple can reconnect after an affair ends. I have read posts that there are some former ow who believe that they will always love the affair partner and will never love anyone like they love their affair partner and it could upset some people when a former affair partner embraces reconciling with their partner and the former affair partner does what is needed to regain the trust that was lost with the spouse.

 

And I am not sure why that surprises. Statistically, 95% of all women and 87% of all men will, initially take back a cheating spouse.

 

Five years later, if the spouse is remorseful, transparent, honest, 88% will still be married....reconciled.

 

If not, it falls to 55%, and that, I assume, is the number that files for divorce.

[SunshineToday]

MY H is a different man today towards me and I am relishing it.

 

But there will always be that small voice that whispers, "Why couldn't it have always been so?" And dealing with resentment may be the last hurdle to attaining respect.

 

 

SPARK! My situation is so similar to yours! I have lurked here for almost year and just registered today to say THANKS for this post, it's me and my H all the way from the A to the R to the now!

 

Your posts are pretty great and your words of what you went through-well makes me know I too am normal!

[Spark1111]

I'm not amazed at the venom that comes out about the sex you had with your husband during the affair. Its like shining sun light in a dark place. Some would rather think to themselves that it (sex with the W) couldn't happen in their affair.

 

No one wants to believe that the MM is lying to them about the sex with the W. And how could you have sex with a man being mean to you? Hello? You are married to him and he is not likely to always be an angel. Too many OW have this warped view that in order to keep the man's attention they can never show him any negative emotion (or else they will be just like the W that he is trying to leave ).

 

Oh well. If they wish to stay in denial, nothing can be done for that. Even out of the affair, some OP just can't get over the anger they have at the spouse for "being in the way". Misplaced anger, maybe?

 

But on the resentment and anger: respect survives that somewhat. The more the resentment goes down, the more the respect goes up. It also helps to have a husband that is truly remorseful for what he did not just to you but to everything that you held dear. Lack of remorse and dismissiveness only adds to the resentment.

 

About the bolded: Very insightful. I have written posts on my confusion regarding "what is never discussed in affairs." I'm amazed at the projection of feelings onto each other rather than direct communication.

 

Hence, no negative or often realistic emotions may be expressed. The spouse is the HUGE white elephant in the room, and so many things are talked around. Lets not burst the fun, feeling good bubble.

 

When Dday struck, she should have been smashing plates around his head in her kitchen instead of supporting him as he cried at her table that he wanted to go home.

 

Was she hoping he'd return to her by always being the kind, supportive, anti-wife? Of course.

 

But he would have respected her more had she gotten good and angry then. She certainly was entitled to.

 

When it became apparent that he was intent to reconcile and told her not to call her anymore, all that repressed anger came pouring out and I got an earfull more than two years later. Sad!

[Spark1111]

One thing I get from you is that it takes a very strong couple to go through what you have and come out the other side. And I've heard that a true reconciliation is rare. You must have a strong base that may have been invisible to you at certain points on your road but it was always there.

 

It's good to hear these positive posts from you towards your husband and your marriage. I have to admit that I've often wondered how you could talk so much about the negative if you truly have repaired and recovered your marriage. I have also wondered that about others that have reconciled and post about the betrayal continuously. But I've never been through it so what do I know?

 

I'm glad you started this in the wrong forum or else I never would have seen it. The thread has been enlightening for the most part.

 

Thank you!

 

After reading here for 4 years, it all seems to follow the same script. It is the typical affair triangle dynamic, and I have learned more from posters

here who have actually experienced any side of the triangke than any IC or MC.

 

LS folks imparted a lot of wisdom, whether I was ready to hear it or not.

 

So when I read of some newbie reeling in pain whose spouse did a, b, or c, I have a strong need to validate it as a normal affair behavior for that point in time. And if that means rehashing what was very negative for them to not feel so alone, I rehash it.

 

I do not tell them what to decide, just to take their time in doing so.

 

And to tell them how happily reconciled I am now seems to me to be exceedingly cruel in that they may be years away from that, if they ever get there.

[Spark1111]

Actually I didn't even have anyone specific in mind when I wrote that post.

So, my intention was not to direct this at you, or anyone in particular.

I had to go back & read your posts in this thread again---& IMO, you came across as respectful, not critical.(as are all of your posts that I've read--I don't recall you ever being unkind, or snarky)

 

 

 

I've seen Spark, as well as other BS's under fire for "not having moved on" numerous times over the years. That pattern is what I wanted to address.

For general purposes. To defend the right of any & every BS to vent their feelings as they need to.For as long as they need to.

 

What I wanted to challenge, by writing my post---is the tendency for

many posters/society at large to impose a time limit on the healing of an individual. As if there was some cookie-cutter formula.

 

I also wanted to point that we can cause a person even more pain, if we come across as if we're holding a stopwatch on their feelings...

 

Like I said, I've done it too---I've been guilty of judging/questioning the progress of other people's healing.

I didn't realize that I was putting a person in pain on the defensive--

and adding to their pain---by questioning how long it was taking for them to process it.

I never realized how much it can hurt someone until it was done to me.

 

Thank you for this!

 

I heal through talking, reading, writing and sharing.

 

IRL, I am happy and healed and moved on. There is no one I talk to about this episode in my life anymore as there is no need to. It's all good. We are good.

 

But that doesn't mean I still don't want to talk about it with others who have experienced it. It's like group therapy and I still learn new insights every day.

 

And I revisit here to share all I have learned and to help other's realize they are not alone and that marriages can be saved.

 

So do many others. We are paying it forward I guess.

[Spark1111]

SPARK! My situation is so similar to yours! I have lurked here for almost year and just registered today to say THANKS for this post, it's me and my H all the way from the A to the R to the now!

 

Your posts are pretty great and your words of what you went through-well makes me know I too am normal!

 

Welcome to LS!

 

And thanks a lot for your compliment. Keep reading here....you WILL learn a lot; hopefully some of it helpful.

[Spark1111]

According to my ex-wife, I was both.

 

Among all the emails she sent me during the divorce were accusations of "leading her on" during the period of the affair, since I had become "unusually helpful" around the house getting on with jobs outside without constant nagging, and "attentive and interested" in the children's lives and well-being, as well as securing a promotion at work and several professional accolades which translated into a flood of international invitations. All of these, she concluded, demonstrated an investment in "our" future. She deduced that I might yet make a satisfactory husband.

 

Were it not for the unspeakable cruelty of my "rejection" of her she accused me of in other emails. How I failed to respond to her attempts at intimacy, her weight loss, her cutting back on her activities to spend more time at home "as a couple", her new hairstyle. How my steadfast lack of interest, sexual or otherwise, led to a complete collapse of her self-esteem, even as I was packing my bags to leave her. So cruel, yet in other ways so loving and kind.

 

I think one sees what one wishes to see. Especially with hindsight.

 

/QUOTE]

 

I think I'd have to speak to the xMr. Radagast to draw my own conclusion from this....BUT

 

It is confusing to see so much investment into what I would perceive was our future, to have it taken away and given to another.....and that's true whether you are a BS, AP, or MP.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20, and gaslighting is always gaslighting, IMO.

[Spark1111]

Good point Radagast. And isn't it interesting how it takes two to tango in a marriage and determine its outcome... even when that tango becomes a hideous and horrible nightmare.

 

That, combined with the previous "Sleeping with the enemy" scenarios described in this thread, makes me ever so grateful to not be married! <<<shudder>>>

 

Okay, but were you ever in a long-term relationship? Supportive through joblessness, depression, addiction, family crisis, fatigue, financial issues, issues with children, mortgage paying, flat tires, pregnancy complications, his family, your family, a migraine headache, stomach virus, a food allergy?

 

It's not all sweetness and roses. When you really love someone, are intimate daily with someone, you overlook a lot of negativity or try to love them out of it.

 

So they are grouchy, tired, short-tempered during the day, but still reach for you in the dark at night and you think, 'ok, we are okay.' And you sleep peacefully believing tomorrow is gonna be better for him, for us.

 

This is not sleeping with the enemy. This is a long-term committed relationship.

 

The affair was the enemy. NOT the man, or else I would not be here.

[donnamaybe]

That was beautiful Spark. Thank you for that.

[OpenBook]

So they are grouchy, tired, short-tempered during the day, but still reach for you in the dark at night and you think, 'ok, we are okay.' And you sleep peacefully believing tomorrow is gonna be better for him, for us.

 

Grouchy, tired, and short-tempered is one thing. Cold, contemptuous, nasty, cruel and mean is quite another. But I understand what you were getting at in your last post. That's not how it came across in your OP. But OK.

[OpenBook]

The affair was the enemy. NOT the man, or else I would not be here.

 

Still trying to wrap my brain around this one. It was the man who had the affair. Is it that in order to reconcile you have to separate the act from the man in your mind? If so, how does that play into making him solely responsible for the affair, i.e. not anything having to do with you?

 

Or do you put it all on the OW, rendering your H helpless and temporarily insane under her influence?

 

Honest questions here. No malice intended. (Miss Bee you can roll your eyes at somebody else.)

[alexandria35]

Still trying to wrap my brain around this one. It was the man who had the affair. Is it that in order to reconcile you have to separate the act from the man in your mind? If so, how does that play into making him solely responsible for the affair, i.e. not anything having to do with you?

 

Or do you put it all on the OW, rendering your H helpless and temporarily insane under her influence?

 

Honest questions here. No malice intended. (Miss Bee you can roll your eyes at somebody else.)

 

That's an easy one. Who chose to have an affair? BW or MM? I would think seperating the the act from the man would make it even more clear that the affair had absolutely nothing to do with the BW.

[skywriter]

Okay, but were you ever in a long-term relationship? Supportive through joblessness, depression, addiction, family crisis, fatigue, financial issues, issues with children, mortgage paying, flat tires, pregnancy complications, his family, your family, a migraine headache, stomach virus, a food allergy?

 

It's not all sweetness and roses. When you really love someone, are intimate daily with someone, you overlook a lot of negativity or try to love them out of it.

 

So they are grouchy, tired, short-tempered during the day, but still reach for you in the dark at night and you think, 'ok, we are okay.' And you sleep peacefully believing tomorrow is gonna be better for him, for us.

 

This is not sleeping with the enemy. This is a long-term committed relationship.

 

The affair was the enemy. NOT the man, or else I would not be here.

 

 

I have lived this and in my case, my spouse eventually left. Only after five yrs of trying get me to leave. I can thank him for that now.

[xxoo]

Okay, but were you ever in a long-term relationship? Supportive through joblessness, depression, addiction, family crisis, fatigue, financial issues, issues with children, mortgage paying, flat tires, pregnancy complications, his family, your family, a migraine headache, stomach virus, a food allergy?

 

It's not all sweetness and roses. When you really love someone, are intimate daily with someone, you overlook a lot of negativity or try to love them out of it.

 

So they are grouchy, tired, short-tempered during the day, but still reach for you in the dark at night and you think, 'ok, we are okay.' And you sleep peacefully believing tomorrow is gonna be better for him, for us.

 

This is not sleeping with the enemy. This is a long-term committed relationship.

 

The affair was the enemy. NOT the man, or else I would not be here.

 

But there is probably a difference between then and now, right? You are still in a long-term relationship, but would you accept the same level of negativity as a normal part of a long-term relationship now?

 

How can we distinguish between normal stress related moodiness and the distance that is associated with an affair?

[SunshineToday]

 

How can we distinguish between normal stress related moodiness and the distance that is associated with an affair?

 

I guess hindsight is 20/20 because in my case (BS) I just thought his negative behavior towards me-and life in general was due to all his extra work he was doing on the side (ha ha on me!) since we were still having regular (good) sex-he was home every night-and I thought his ****ty attitude was just a part of us going through hard times in our life, but never ever once even suspected he was seeing an OW..and his A only lasted for 4 weeks!! But now I see when the negativity and overall crappy treatment-just comes out of nowhere, this was how he helped justify and believe his own lies....my wife doesn't love me the right way..my wife is all about the money........yada yada

Anyhow I was pretty blind to a lot of the signs then, something I have sadly have to learn. Boy did I learn!

[xxoo]

I guess hindsight is 20/20 because in my case (BS) I just thought his negative behavior towards me-and life in general was due to all his extra work he was doing on the side (ha ha on me!) since we were still having regular (good) sex-he was home every night-and I thought his ****ty attitude was just a part of us going through hard times in our life, but never ever once even suspected he was seeing an OW..and his A only lasted for 4 weeks!! But now I see when the negativity and overall crappy treatment-just comes out of nowhere, this was how he helped justify and believe his own lies....my wife doesn't love me the right way..my wife is all about the money........yada yada

Anyhow I was pretty blind to a lot of the signs then, something I have sadly have to learn. Boy did I learn!

 

Thanks, Sunshine.

 

You mention that it comes out of nowhere. But stresses can come out of nowhere, too, right?

 

Is it qualitatively a different kind of moodiness and distance? I've been in a LT relationship for 20+ years, got the kids, jobs, mortgages, etc. I don't believe either of us has ever demonstrated moodiness or distance that would rise to the level of cruel or cold. Short tempered and grouchy, yes, but quick with a sheepish "sorry" and a hug to de-stress and connect.

 

Was the level of discord or distance qualitatively different from at points pre-affair? Or was it more of a quantitative thing? (distant and grouchy more often, or suddenly a lot when previously little) Or something else?

Edited March 16, 2012 by xxoo

[Spark1111]

Still trying to wrap my brain around this one. It was the man who had the affair. Is it that in order to reconcile you have to separate the act from the man in your mind? If so, how does that play into making him solely responsible for the affair, i.e. not anything having to do with you?

 

Or do you put it all on the OW, rendering your H helpless and temporarily insane under her influence?

 

Honest questions here. No malice intended. (Miss Bee you can roll your eyes at somebody else.)

 

Initially I separated nothing. What I, and most people do not KNOW of affairs, including an MC or two, could fill volumes.

 

We like to believe the Hollywood version is the truth, and maybe in rare cases it is (exit affairs): Fall in love with the right partner and ride away into the sunset to live happily ever after.

 

But my H was, again, typical after DDAY. I told him to go be with his soulmate. I was angrier at the lying to my face, the anger, the criticism, than having developed feelings for another.

 

No one was more stunned than I when it became the very last thing he wanted. (Again, typically, the 95%.)

 

That's when I learned I knew NOTHING about affairs and started to educate myself.

 

In hindsight, as the affair progressed from emotional to physical, becoming more intense with all it's texting and drama, the worse he acted at home....also typical. Guilt and denial and the need to justify the inexcusable really starts to warp the soul.

 

I would ask, what is wrong and was told nothing. I begged to go to counseling and was told, 'What am I gonna do? Sit there and cry about how my parent's treated me?" I went alone, and the kids and I chalked it up to job stress.

 

Why? because we loved him. And this abherrant behavior was not 24/7. There were wonderful family gatherings and fun weekends away, and moments of joy, so I, in denial,because love IS blind, gained a little hope in my heart that it will all be ok...it will work itself out.

 

For many of us, the discovery of an AP is almost a relief, as in "AHHHHH...Now that explains it all."

 

I never blamed her. I just needed to understand how she could do to me what had been done to her by her xH who HAD married his AP and seems to be living happily ever after. She, better than anyone, knew the pain of betrayal. In fact, she was still oh-so-bitter about it during the affair. it was a main topic of convo for them.

[Spark1111]

But there is probably a difference between then and now, right? You are still in a long-term relationship, but would you accept the same level of negativity as a normal part of a long-term relationship now?

 

How can we distinguish between normal stress related moodiness and the distance that is associated with an affair?

 

Call me naive and too-trusting pre-affair and during, but when DDay struck I googled signs your spouse is having an affair, there it was, EVERY SINGLE ITEM on the list had been right before my very eyes.

 

He had successfully explained them all away, and I believed him, every single lie.

 

Today, my boundaries are so strong , and what I will not accept in this relationship is a lot!

 

As I have backed off of fixing, and solving, and sacrificing for everyone, he has so stepped up to the plate.

 

We respect each other more

[mercy]

 

Guilt and denial and the need to justify the inexcusable really starts to warp the soul.

 

 

 

And might I add, that guilt manifests itself into anger. Once the anger has manifested itself he then forces that anger outwardly, onto the bw, his family, etc. Thus feeling free of guilt and justifying his actions. But par for the course the guilt returns and the cycle repeats itself.

 

I mean, it is after all their {bw, family, etc} fault anyway.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't PTSD also an issue with your h? Devastating what that can do to the human mind.

 

btw, thank you for the sacrifices your family has made for the service of your h.

Edited March 16, 2012 by mercy