Chemicals

[trinity1]

According to scientific research done by Dr Helen Fisher, biological anthropologist, some people are indeed lucky enough to have the stage of being in love last forever. Their love matures but the sensation of staying in love stays. This has been proven by brain scans some 25 years into the relationship.

 

I really don't see a point to studying this as it is likely not something that everyone can experience. I'd like to be shaped like a Kenyan marathoner' date=' but that is not likely to ever happen given my genetic makeup and body type. [/quote']

 

I'm one of those lucky ones. I've always loved that way.

[seren]

I have been with H for almost 27 years now, many of those years were spent with he and I having time apart when he was on det with the military, I, and probably a lot of people who have absences as part of their marriage would attest to the excitement, the anticipation of meeting, the sexy letters etc. The reunions always, I think, helped the chemicals stay close to the surface, the day of him coming home was always planned, with meals at home, schmoozy music and dancing and long lie in's and all that. TBH, those times were wonderful, but not so wonderful as him being home 24/7. A lot of absence relationships have these highs, which helps to keep the relationship from becoming 'ordinary' when in fact what most of us want is ordinary.

 

We always sent letters, notes and cards to each other, even when he was home for a long stretch, I always made sure I looked nice and always tried to protect him from stress and worry. H had an A because of his own issues, during the A he did change we did stop all the stuff we had always done to keep 'us' alive. I used to send him invitations for dinner (in our house) complete with laid table, menu, wine list etc etc, to be followed by dancing (just us) and whatever followed. I stopped it all when he was being an a***. I don't know if the brain chemicals went South, it was more he compartmentalising and convincing himself he wasn't good enough for all that we had, and not good enough for me. When I ask if all that went on with he and OW, he looks incredulous, no, none of the romance, just the odd hours meeting up. His chemicals were clearly not in the brain department of his body.

 

Now that we have reconciled and he is out of the military our relationship has, IMHO, improved, for the first time he sees me looking like something the dog dragged in, I no longer work outside the home, so he gets to see me au naturel more often than not, our humour toward each other has changed, in short we have changed and I think we have finally got a handle on what a long term ordinary relationship is. The brain chemicals are still in action, but they are more of a calm sea than a storm. I am liking this more than the together, apart routine. Maybe the chemicals are now on a regular basis than the woosh thing previously.

 

I wonder if the so called hysterical bonding after an A is when the WS sees that the BS is no pushover and will leave. If the 'oh there you are' I missed you sort of chemicals mean that the WS is given a shot in the a*** and they realise that what they wanted was there all along.

 

Saying all this, I am not disputing that some A's are because of love, after all the heady rush has died down. I just wish reality kicked in before these pesky chemicals kicked in and the WS ended one before beginning another.

[nofool4u]

Cheaters might say something like:

 

I experience new feelings when i see her that i don't experience with my wife anymore

I am more motivated to see him than to see my husband

I never seem to get bored of her

When we formulate these terms scientifically they become as follows:

 

I forget how those chemicals felt like, with that new person i can feel them again

More chemicals are pumped into my body when i see him than when i see my husband

i don't think those chemicals will ever stop being released (the same thought that he first got when he married his wife)

How to prevent cheating?

Most of the cheaters who understand this concept stop cheating simply because they realize that they are just chasing chemicals and not real feelings. In my book The ultimate guide to maintaining a healthy relationship i explained how both partners should understand the fact that chemicals won't last forever and that intimacy must take over such feelings in order for the relationship to survive.

 

People who cheat chase a mirage then sooner or later will find that the chemicals they were after disappeared once again and this is where serial cheating comes from.

 

If you know a person who cheats on somebody then let him read this article. If you cheat then now you know that you are only going after chemicals and that you not in love with someone else.

 

I have said this all along, just not linking it to anything scientific.

 

This, I believe, is what drives the 7 year itch. People that cheat are experiencing that high and excitement of being with someone new. And they swear up and down its love. But they don't look 5 years or so down the road and realize that they will more than likely be right back in the same position they were in when they were cheating. Feeling bored with their current sex partner, and looking for that newness again.

[Owl]

I don't think all relationships go through infatuation stages only relationships where people feel that kind of attraction. Relationships where people are together for other reasons that don't involve that kind of attraction would not apply. That would include As based on those other kinds of relationships too. Not all As are about love or infatuation or romance. Some are about companionship or convenience or having needs met that are not being met elsewhere or about sex or about passing the time between relationships.

 

I would argue that all true "romantic" relationships go through some form of infatuation/limerance at the beginning.

 

I would agree that not all affairs are based on love/romance. Many are simply for the "meeting of needs" with no love/romantic basis. The difficulty here is that often what STARTS as one of these non-romantic affairs often ends up becoming one, because physical intimacy typically leads to emotional intimacy...just as emotional often leads to physical.

 

But for those few that do maintain themselves just for "convenience"...you're right, no romantic feelings at all are part of the affair. That means the "chemical" side of the attraction may be minimized, but still not entirely negated.

 

It is also very patronising to assume that people who have As don't understand the dynamics of relationships or biochemistry or that they're making choices based on ignorance. Some people make choices knowing all that stuff for other reasons like maybe it just suits them at the time or maybe they think they'll break the bank or maybe they don't really care about the outcome either way they just enjoy the ride.

 

Well, I'd argue that people who have A's typically don't DEMONSTRATE an understanding of the dynamics of relationships or biochemistry.

[Toots]

I would argue that all true "romantic" relationships go through some form of infatuation/limerance at the beginning.

 

I would agree that not all affairs are based on love/romance. Many are simply for the "meeting of needs" with no love/romantic basis. The difficulty here is that often what STARTS as one of these non-romantic affairs often ends up becoming one, because physical intimacy typically leads to emotional intimacy...just as emotional often leads to physical.

 

But for those few that do maintain themselves just for "convenience"...you're right, no romantic feelings at all are part of the affair. That means the "chemical" side of the attraction may be minimized, but still not entirely negated.

 

 

 

Well, I'd argue that people who have A's typically don't DEMONSTRATE an understanding of the dynamics of relationships or biochemistry.

 

I don't know about that, not understanding dynamics of relationships or biochemistry. I think sometimes people can understand something cognitively but still act in a different way because they have other needs or more pressing issues so although they understand they still act differently maybe "not in their best interests" if they were thinking rationally but for them there and then it's what they feel they need to do. Or want to do. People aren't always rational.

 

Yes it is a risk that convenience relationships can develop into something else but I was thinking of relationships not based on sex so much as on "missing something" in their lives like I suppose a kind of disfunctional thing that is a lot more ambivalent because the person knows it is rooted in a need rather than in a desire, like perhaps compulsive eating or bulimia rather than like love.

[Toots]

From what I've read here, serial OW either aren't right in the mind enough to develop and sustain a long-term relationship, or they are way too insecure about themselves to want one.

 

YMMV of course.

 

I'm sorry I don't understand why you quoted my post which wasn't about serial OW? I was talking about MMs who aren't in love with the OW but are using the A to meet some other kind of need inside themselves or maybe filling in for something missing in their marriage. I wasn't thinking of OWs in those sorts of situations though I suppose the same could apply.

[Owl]

I don't know about that, not understanding dynamics of relationships or biochemistry. I think sometimes people can understand something cognitively but still act in a different way because they have other needs or more pressing issues so although they understand they still act differently maybe "not in their best interests" if they were thinking rationally but for them there and then it's what they feel they need to do. Or want to do. People aren't always rational.

 

So they may understand how relationships work...but refuse to apply that information to their own situation?

 

I don't see a functional difference between knowing and not using, and not knowing.

 

So it's not surprising that others posting advice to them are going to "act" as if they don't know, if they're not applying or using that information in their own situation.

 

Yes it is a risk that convenience relationships can develop into something else but I was thinking of relationships not based on sex so much as on "missing something" in their lives like I suppose a kind of disfunctional thing that is a lot more ambivalent because the person knows it is rooted in a need rather than in a desire, like perhaps compulsive eating or bulimia rather than like love.

 

I have absolutely no idea on what kind of "lack" you'd be talking about here. Can you give me an example that would actually apply to leading someone to have an affair?

[NoIDidn't]

Oh no! It isn't the luck of the draw, or genetics, or even compatibility.

 

It is what they both DO that seems to tip the balance and it is basic in theory but maybe harder in daily practice:

 

They respect each other's thoughts and feelings and opinions.

 

They create a safe environment for open communciation.Active listening with the ego checked at the door.

 

They make time for fun....lots of it... and laugh often.

 

They realized early in the relationship that 9 out of 10 disagrements are unresolvable, so they give it up, the power struggles the need to be right, the endless bickering.

 

They compromise to please the other.

 

They BOTH try daily to put their partner's needs and feelings above their own.

 

They BOTH give without expectation of getting.

 

That's just a few....and the result is they both get A LOT and a lifetime of real relational happiness.

 

I have to read up more on her research, but I didn't get the impression that she was saying it was something specific that they did differently than other couples as well.

 

I will look more. What I listened to and read was interpretation of brain scan data, not a talk on how those lucky enough to be in love forever have done to get there. I think its something they've done in addition to something about the way they were nurtured as kids AND their genetic make up.

[trinity1]

I have to read up more on her research, but I didn't get the impression that she was saying it was something specific that they did differently than other couples as well.

 

I will look more. What I listened to and read was interpretation of brain scan data, not a talk on how those lucky enough to be in love forever have done to get there. I think its something they've done in addition to something about the way they were nurtured as kids AND their genetic make up.

 

It was a while since I listened to it, but my take was that it was an individual thing, not a couples thing, which is why I stated that that's how I love. That is just how I am. I love that way. It's not about doing something specific, it's about how your brain works.

 

Some people, a minority, are lucky enough that their brain continues to emit the love chemicals many only feel during the infatuation stage throughout their relationships. They continue to stay in love throughout the entire relationship. Their love still matures but they continue to be in love.

[trinity1]

This is just a wild guess, but could it be that those who continue to emit in love chemicals are not so dependent on the outcome of the relationship, ie marriage, but can, because of the continued flow of love chemicals, enjoy the relationship itself independent of outcome?

[trinity1]

Not sure that someone's immense enjoyment of affairs brings them to OW boards.

One would think it'd really be the opposite, despite what they say here.

 

I think you got it a bit mixed up. The enjoyment is what makes an OM/OW stay in an EMR, the problems are what bring them to an OM/OW board. One doesn't exclude the other. There is room for both in a relationship.

 

Which leads me to thinking that if proper support is given to handle the issues within an EMR, the OM/OW with the sustained in love brain chemistry we have been discussing in this thread, have a good chance of to a large extent enjoy the relationship if they choose to stay in it.

[woinlove]

I think the ones who are really happy in affairs, including in affairs that go on indefinitely through the years, are precisely the ones who are not hit with "love chemicals". Lizzie comes to mind, and there are others. These tend to be people who really do not want an exclusive, intimate R, who would typically dump the MM/MW if he/she talked about leaving the spouse, some may have more than one MM/MW at a time. They are getting their needs met in the here and now and their future does not hinge on any particular MM/MW, although they may be happy continuing for years with a particular MM/MW.

 

The ones hit with "love chemicals", particularly over the longer term, often would like to have the MM/MW to themselves. Sometimes this is obvious and they know it, sometimes it seems they are denying their deeper longings, in an attempt to be more satisfied with what they do get out of the affair.

 

If I were to advise someone how to be happiest in a long term secret affair, I would advice them to try to avoid love chemicals, true love, or love at all for the MM/MW. Infatuation, sexual attraction, lust, all that is fine though. Not that I would give out such advice, as I think living honestly, openly, authentically, and encouraging ourselves and others to be the best they can be (which does not include deception and betrayal in my view) is the journey of happiness.

Edited April 6, 2012 by woinlove

[jlola]

I think you got it a bit mixed up. The enjoyment is what makes an OM/OW stay in an EMR, the problems are what bring them to an OM/OW board. One doesn't exclude the other. There is room for both in a relationship.

 

Which leads me to thinking that if proper support is given to handle the issues within an EMR, the OM/OW with the sustained in love brain chemistry we have been discussing in this thread, have a good chance of to a large extent enjoy the relationship if they choose to stay in it.

 

I think I read that fewer than 10% of people can sustain these love chemicals. For those 10 of people to meet and get together is rare. i personally believe these lucky folks would be less prone to affairs as they are more likely to be the sort who look at their long term everyday relationships through rose colored glasses. Most people having affairs focus on problems. That is how they got in the affair in the first place. by opening up about issues in their marriage.

 

I do believe poor boundaries,bad impulse control, bad communication or often times personalities with narcissism or other personality disorders,love and romance addiction,ADHD,bi-polar,sex addiction are more prone to affairs. Did not make this up. Anyone can look up these facts.

[Owl]

I think you got it a bit mixed up. The enjoyment is what makes an OM/OW stay in an EMR, the problems are what bring them to an OM/OW board. One doesn't exclude the other. There is room for both in a relationship.

 

Which leads me to thinking that if proper support is given to handle the issues within an EMR, the OM/OW with the sustained in love brain chemistry we have been discussing in this thread, have a good chance of to a large extent enjoy the relationship if they choose to stay in it.

 

This is where the breakdown is for me.

 

I don't think there IS a way to "handle the issues within an EMR". You talk about tools to "cope".

 

The reality is...an EMR is an inherently unbalanced relationship, and will almost always be fraught with some pretty major issues, simply given the fact that it IS an EMR.

 

It's possible that an OW could have a relationship that she could "enjoy to a large extent"...if she puts sufficient blinders on to keep herself from seeing the whole picture.

 

But from my perspective, that's recommending dysfunctional behavior as "support". I don't see that as a true answer.

 

And given the rarity of those very, very few people who have an imbalanced hormonal system that allows them to remain in limerance forever...I'd personally recommend that those folks seek out IC and potential therapy, rather than try to tailor advice for such a small, select few on an online forum board.

[trinity1]

This is where the breakdown is for me.

 

I don't think there IS a way to "handle the issues within an EMR". You talk about tools to "cope".

 

The reality is...an EMR is an inherently unbalanced relationship, and will almost always be fraught with some pretty major issues, simply given the fact that it IS an EMR.

 

It's possible that an OW could have a relationship that she could "enjoy to a large extent"...if she puts sufficient blinders on to keep herself from seeing the whole picture.

 

But from my perspective, that's recommending dysfunctional behavior as "support". I don't see that as a true answer.

 

And given the rarity of those very, very few people who have an imbalanced hormonal system that allows them to remain in limerance forever...I'd personally recommend that those folks seek out IC and potential therapy, rather than try to tailor advice for such a small, select few on an online forum board.

 

Tools to live a happier life even if you choose to remain in an EMR are not dependent on the presence of in-love chemicals.

[Owl]

Tools to live a happier life even if you choose to remain in an EMR are not dependent on the presence of in-love chemicals.

 

And would therefore be out of scope for this thread entitled "chemicals".

[Owl]

Some people, a minority, are lucky enough that their brain continues to emit the love chemicals many only feel during the infatuation stage throughout their relationships. They continue to stay in love throughout the entire relationship. Their love still matures but they continue to be in love.

 

Since the subject of this thread is "chemicals" and focused on the brain chemistry of love, re-reading this comment causes me to raise a few questions.

 

Trinity, you mentioned that you're one of these people.

 

I'm curious...how do you know that? Were you diagnosed/told so by a doctor or psychologist?

 

How would someone "know" that the love they feel is somehow different than that that others are feeling? It could be the same, but they're simply choosing to interpret differently, for whatever reason.

 

I'd suspect that it would take a professional to diagnose this, personally. I don't think someone could make this kind of judgement for themselves.

[trinity1]

Since the subject of this thread is "chemicals" and focused on the brain chemistry of love, re-reading this comment causes me to raise a few questions.

 

Trinity, you mentioned that you're one of these people.

 

I'm curious...how do you know that? Were you diagnosed/told so by a doctor or psychologist?

 

How would someone "know" that the love they feel is somehow different than that that others are feeling? It could be the same, but they're simply choosing to interpret differently, for whatever reason.

 

I'd suspect that it would take a professional to diagnose this, personally. I don't think someone could make this kind of judgement for themselves.

 

Obviously the only person we can talk about with certainty without doing a brain scan is ourselves. I stay in love throughout my relationships.

[Owl]

Obviously the only person we can talk about with certainty without doing a brain scan is ourselves. I stay in love throughout my relationships.

 

I disagree. We can absolutely talk with doctors, therapists, psychologists, etc...

 

Don't take me wrong...you could well be someone with a different brain chemistry than that of others...but you can't KNOW that for a fact without some kind of outside verification.

 

But wouldn't having that unique brain chemistry also make it far more difficult for you to advise others on maintaining a relationship when your own is so completely outside of the norm, and with a completely different basis from how everyone else's works?

 

Just as no one here could likely advise you on your own unique relationship...not sure how much insight you'd be able to have into that of others as well.

 

One more reason to seek PROFESSIONAL help, rather than that of an internet forum composed of folks far different from yourself.

[donnamaybe]

Interestingly, I have read of an AP worrying about the length of time since seeing her MM and worrying that the infatuation chemicals would subside. Can you imagine if they were a couple and the MM had to, say, be deployed to a war zone for any length of time? What do you think he would find upon his return? I am betting a new man so the "love chemical high" would still be propping up the gal who, IMO, needs that high to mask an underlying, undealt with problem.

[trinity1]

I disagree. We can absolutely talk with doctors, therapists, psychologists, etc...

 

Don't take me wrong...you could well be someone with a different brain chemistry than that of others...but you can't KNOW that for a fact without some kind of outside verification.

 

But wouldn't having that unique brain chemistry also make it far more difficult for you to advise others on maintaining a relationship when your own is so completely outside of the norm, and with a completely different basis from how everyone else's works?

 

Just as no one here could likely advise you on your own unique relationship...not sure how much insight you'd be able to have into that of others as well.

 

One more reason to seek PROFESSIONAL help, rather than that of an internet forum composed of folks far different from yourself.

 

I disagree. Noone should stay in an EMR unless the benefits outweigh the negatives. For those with sustained in-love chemicals there is merely an added benefit to take into consideration. Nothing else differs. We all have different pros and cons in our relationships. We can still use the same approach towards the EMR if we decide the benefits outweigh the negatives.

[Owl]

I disagree. Noone should stay in an EMR unless the benefits outweigh the negatives. For those with sustained in-love chemicals there is merely an added benefit to take into consideration. Nothing else differs. We all have different pros and cons in our relationships. We can still use the same approach towards the EMR if we decide the benefits outweigh the negatives.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I agree that no one should stay in ANY relationship unless the benefits outweigh the negatives.

 

But I have to disagree on the differences of "sustained in-love chemicals".

 

That creates an entirely different basis, a different mindset and viewpoint towards the relationship, and in truth a different type of long term relationship if it can be attained.

 

But then again...given that this is where most affairs get stuck anyway...someone who permanently lives in this state might well be able to provide insight in how to prevent them from clouding your judgement too much, from preventing you from taking action you might not want to take because of that chemical influence....assuming of course, that person has themselves learned how to "set aside" that fog as needed.

 

Again, I'm not sure that someone in limerance permanently would be capable of doing that.

 

I'll have to give this some thought.

[woinlove]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I agree that no one should stay in ANY relationship unless the benefits outweigh the negatives.

 

But I have to disagree on the differences of "sustained in-love chemicals".

 

That creates an entirely different basis, a different mindset and viewpoint towards the relationship, and in truth a different type of long term relationship if it can be attained.

 

But then again...given that this is where most affairs get stuck anyway...someone who permanently lives in this state might well be able to provide insight in how to prevent them from clouding your judgement too much, from preventing you from taking action you might not want to take because of that chemical influence....assuming of course, that person has themselves learned how to "set aside" that fog as needed.

 

Again, I'm not sure that someone in limerance permanently would be capable of doing that.

 

I'll have to give this some thought.

 

 

Good points. The in-love chemicals have also been attributed to high risk behavior and suppression of rational thought.

[MissBee]

Tools to live a happier life even if you choose to remain in an EMR are not dependent on the presence of in-love chemicals.

 

I compare someone looking for tools to have a happier life in an EMR of their choosing to one who is allergic to chocolate and who has an anaphylactic reaction to eating it every time. I imagine this person asking their doctor how to live a happier life if they still choose to eat chocolate....and I'd imagine a doctor can indeed tell them you just need to eat it and then make sure someone stabs you with an epi pen on time. However, most would probably just request that for BEST results in life, they avoid eating chocolate, as they can still have a happy life without it and are unnecessarily putting themselves in a bad situation.

 

Similarly, no one HAS to have an affair. Affairs are inherently bad situations and come with more complications and problems than a normal relationship does. So to me, it doesn't seem wise to choose an inherently dysfunctional relationship then try to get tools on living with a choice that by its very nature causes problems. It seems simpler to just choose something else.

 

I think choosing EMRs and then trying to live a happier life with it is a form of self sabotage....just like anyone watching a chocolate-allergic person eating chocolate and stabbing themselves with the epi pen would probably believe they were crazy and must be trying to die or something. Both behaviors are irrational.

[donnamaybe]

Another way to do this would be to have the A come out in the open.

 

Then EVERYONE could see how they feel.

 

One would probably hear the chemicals recede with a vacuum-like sound.