Religious freedom and tolerance

[pureinheart]

Hello,

 

Are your freedoms important to you? If you live in a country where you enjoy exercising your rights of freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, then please don't take them for granted! There are people in other countries who are persecuted or killed for having different beliefs. Sadly, many "Western" countries in the past experienced the same tragic persecution of people of other belief, including persecution of people of different ethnicities. So, instead of bad-mouthing people who believe differently than you (whether you believe in a Supreme Being, many Supreme Beings, or no Supreme Being), why not celebrate freedom of religion, and why not be tolerant?

 

Tolerance does not mean to agree with what others believe, but rather to acknowledge their right to believe/be different, and to respect them, even though they are different than you.

 

Can you do that? Can you be tolerant people of other beliefs? Can you celebrate freedom of religion, where each person has the ability to believe what one believes is true, and can you be respectful, kind, and sincere to people who are different than you, even though you do not agree with what they believe?

 

Peace and God bless

 

I soooo appreciate the freedom to believe the way I want. I don't have a problem unless a particular faith tells me or others that I have to believe the way they do or die...at this point I want nothing to do with it and don't even want to talk about it anymore.

 

I love my God and talk about my God, but I don't care if others don't believe like me. I will speak out on issues, but ultimately it's God that needs to change them if He feels the need to change them, not my job anymore.

 

I think freedom can be abused in all of the areas you described, although being post specific I cannot reconcile myself to cult-like activities, such as the Jim Jones cult and others like him.

Edited April 2, 2012 by pureinheart

[FredRutherford]

Originally Posted by BetheButterfly

Hello Feelin Frisky,

 

I am curious. Have you ever had a religious person make fun of you or make fun of what you believe, that there is no God? Hopefully not. If so, then shame on that religious person who insulted you and what you believe.

 

Not personally but jokes are made all the time denigrating atheists in America

 

I don't have an agenda of mocking people for fun or sport. Some folks do that a lot. I have better things to do.

 

 

That seems really odd of you, to cry about atheists getting slammed when you yourself slammed a big majority of Americans, who in polls overwhelmingly say they believe in God.

 

www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/310429-all-game-god-3.html#post3863771

 

 

 

Psssst, god is a crock. Pass it down.

 

Can imagine the hue and cry we'd hear if some religious people said something like

Psssst, atheists are stupid. Pass it down

[BetheButterfly]

Not personally but jokes are made all the time denigrating atheists in America and there's no backlash because the majority of people claim belief and it's therefore deemed that belief is the norm and non-belief the flaky exception. I personally feel it is the opposite but I don't take it on as a personal crusade that will just alienate me from people and make me look like a fool.

 

Hello Feelin Frisky,

 

Sad to say, there are lots of jokes made all the time making fun of all people, not just Atheists. There are jokes making fun of Muslims, Christians, Jewish people, and so on. However, those who are tolerant and respectful do not tend to make jokes that mock what other people believe or don't believe.

 

 

It does not "hurt me". It disturbs me because it is fundamentally false. The founders of the US Constitution were not united in faith and created language and law to found a nation in which no religion would be favored above another, all persons of faith and lack of faith could live un-oppressed by theocracy in which the laws of man and the supposed laws of "god" were deemed on in the same. That is a most admirable maturity shown by these men who shaped the country as having a secular government entirely separate from the intrusion of faith-lore reasoning on the frameworks of democracy and justice. Anywhere else in the world where religion IS the law is a troubled and backward place where freedom is at best an illusion.

 

I am curious. Do you believe that some of the founders of the US Constitution believed in God? Why or why not?

 

As for the separation of church and state, that is excellent! Sad to say, for a long time, Europe was in a battle between Catholics and Protestants where both were killing each other and trying to govern countries. Ironically, this is not following Jesus' commands, because Jesus never ever advocated killing in his name, nor even in setting up "Christian" governments, nor force converting anyone, nor persecuting or treating as second class citizens those who didn't follow him.

 

 

 

 

Europeans including the so-called "pilgrims" often fled Europe to avoid religious persecution. Some were also however "cults" of their own who sought a place in which they could establish their own religious hegemony. That gives them no special right in influencing what was written into the US Constitution. There are semantic battles over what does separation of church and state mean since it was not expressly said but was implied by use of the phrase "congress shall pass now law "respecting the establishment of religion". One can simply look at the original unamended Constitution and see that clearly if the founding fathers were even half zealots, the flavor of the language would have involved the word "god" and probably all manner of biblical allusions. But it didn't. And they went a step further in the first amendment to make sure no one is unclear about this being a non-theocratic nation whose laws would eventually begin to reflect language from other ancient religious traditions. People today who try to imply intent and appearances of Christian beliefs are nothing short of a mob twisting the truth to unite the unsophisticated in yielding their votes to political exploiters who will say and do most anything to take power, favor their private interests and disenfranchise anyone who does not agree with them. That to me is the antithesis of what the message of Jesus Christ is--yet simple folk who spend so much time on their knees praying for deliverance are the easiest push-overs to vote in the very worst liars who will keep them in poverty while medicated heavily with the symbols of the faith they don't even really understand. Christianity is about braving a crucifixion for redemption--something we must all face if we are to realize a world finally united in fellowship rather than hate and possession.

 

The above is very interesting and a good point. If more Christians in name would study Jesus' teachings and example, do you think there would be less hate and possession in the world, as well as pushovers who try to force their beliefs on others?

 

 

Often they are but I would not go so far as to damn everyone. I find the popular American evangelical brand of Christianity to be un-Christian and anti-American in that the message is often one of condition, exclusion, vilification as opposed to unconditional acceptance, inclusion and the extension of the positive benefit of the doubt to strangers whom have not yet demonstrated their substance.

 

Could you please expound on that? Thanks.

 

 

I don't understand some of your intentions in the first paragraph about secular and religious and percentages. Just let me assure you that spirituality is a debatable thing. And I see it very differently than what is popularly asserted by "religious" people. I am the most spiritual person I know. But you have to understand my logic. Briefly it is this: human beings--often because of religion--see themselves as "created" and somehow above or outside of nature but you hold that their is a supreme being who probably looks something like you and has a gender. That is not spiritual in any particular way--it is merely a projection of animal hierarchy typical of what is found inside nature in which there is some super-alpha pack leader who runs the show. I have completely disindoctrinated myself of that notion. Human beings are the product of nature and are entirely inside of it. There is no intrusion by any super-nature in our day to day lives or there would be chaos and no one would plan any kind of progress. They would all believe it's senseless to plan progress if there is a super-natural being who will show up and rewrite everything according to his dominion. So, without saying so, humanity's progress owes it's entire essence to lack of hard belief. My spirituality is in connection with truth and nature and the understanding that no one stands in my way nor do i need any special permissions to create or think on the highest orders I'm capable of. I believe in facilitating the goodness obscurred in each other. That is my spirituatlity--not praying for some sky daddy to customize my reality for me. Religion hangs on in families out of fear of consequence for not believing because no one want tos really risk hell by braving expression of dissent with religious tradtions. But we bank on natural systems we can see working and account for and thus we design and engineer progress freely without sacrificing goats periodically for god to keep the rain from messing up our concrete pours.

 

I am sure many people could think that they are the most spiritual person they know.

 

However, there is no need to mock the beliefs of other people. It's perfectly fine to disagree with them though.

 

As for my post on a forum, that is in no way analogous to running in in person into a church, synagogue or mosque and yelling god is a crock. You just took it that way as is typical of many believers who are just intolerant of dissent. Mine was a very quiet type-written few words that did not take over the forum and force everyone to cease their other business and pay attention only to me. You seem to continue to act as if I DID assert such power. Not so. It was what it was--a simple personal assertion of my view that "god" is not real. And worse, I think belief is very deleterious to the progress and good will of human life everywhere--thus I said "god is a crock". That's something you should learn to expect in a new medium in which people get recreation out of asserting their intellects. It's still just words in a little box on something now one has to read and is not a broadcast that has affected the world just because i typed it on Love Shack.

 

I am curious. When you talk to Christians you know, do you call God a "crock"? What do they say? Here on this forum, you know there are people on this forum who believe God is as real as you or me. You are not ignorant of the fact. So, why did you write that, if not to incite and make fun of people who do believe in God?

 

The bolded quote above was from my response to you. It asserted that if you go to "free thinkers" or "atheist" forums, that there are persons who come there who are believers who hate that there is even any kind of venue for non-believers or agnostics to be honest and share the kind of fellowship that other groups do either IRL in churches or on the net. I think that is very sick and sad--they have no presence to add to their own community and just spend immense amounts of time trying to undermine others who do not agree with them. Sometimes they are banned and blocked and sometimes these people are resourceful and keep at it and find different IP addresses to continue their harangues.

 

I don't find your last question making any sense. I don't have an agenda of mocking people for fun or sport. Some folks do that a lot. I have better things to do.

 

Exactly. You have better things to do, so why make statements that are negative against what other people believe?

 

Cry me a river with all of the anguish you suffered by seeing my brief retort.

 

I did not suffer, but I most definitely did not appreciate it, which is why I replied. I did to be outspoken concerning what I agree with and believe. You were outspoken in sharing your negative view in a negative way concerning God, and I was outspoken in answering it.

 

 

I don't evene remember the thread but you sinply don't understand how this medium works and have blown all of these things into issues of global proportions that involve "one to many" types of communications in which one asserts an authority to monopolize the time of others and dictate a single message to which they must submit. This medium is fundamentally the opposite. It's as if I wrote myself a note and put it in a bug filing cabinet and you came along and saw it and took it as a mortal sin against you and all like you. That is why i criticized you the way I did and pointed out to you how contentious and hostility-provoking religion is. You couldn't withstand a single negative statement even though it was not addressed to you personally and have internalized it. You have a lot to learn about history, about the meanings implied in the story of Jesus, in interpretations of spirituality, what freedom means in a free society, how communications differ than they once did and what other people are entitled to do with their little piece of free speech on a form like this. There is nothing vicious in what I just said--it's just plain expedient truth and I bear you no ill-will.

 

 

 

I bear you no ill will either and I forgive you. However, your remark has become to me a classic example of people using negative expressions to belittle/mock/insult what other people believe. I suppose you did not intend it that way. By the way, I am curious. How did you intend for Christians to think concerning that remark? What was your objective? Also, think about it in terms of if you were not an anonymous poster on a forum, but rather if, for example, you were the President of the United States giving a speech. Do you think that people who believe in God should just put their heads down in shame when/if someone uses a negative expression to express their disbelief in God? People who believe in God have the freedom of speech as well as those who don't believe in God. However, both groups should be prepared as to how the other group would take their comment. Hopefully and ideally both groups (both those who believe in God and those who don't) should be polite when they address people of the other group, no?

 

God does not exist in any way that matters to mankind. You are welcome to believe what you will but maybe some questioning might do you some good. I have no fear of god but know if I face him some day and he tells me "hey I'm real, but sorry, there's no after-life and in 10 seconds you'll just dissolve forever", I know I can be grateful for the life he did give me rather than angry, ungrateful and disappointed like the all the believers whom have thought all this was just a prelude to some happy eternity.

 

That is your opinion/belief and I am sure you have reasons and what you believe to be evidence that supports what you think. I do as well. I do believe that God exists and that He matters to mankind, because He made mankind, as well as all the earth, all of the Milky Way galaxy, and all the other galaxies. However, I understand those who do not believe He doesn't exist. All I request from you and from all Atheists is for kindness and politeness. I am not asking you to believe God exists, but rather just to be kind and respectful to those who do believe He does.

 

Thanks.

 

Peace and God bless you

[brokenTom]

Can you celebrate freedom of religion, where each person has the ability to believe what one believes is true, and can you be respectful, kind, and sincere to people who are different than you, even though you do not agree with what they believe?

Yes, this is a basic principal of Unitarian Universalism and includes athiesm as well. Yes, athiests can go to a church and be welcomed and appreciated.

[brokenTom]

I think it's also useful to separate the "church" from the "source" of their worship. I doubt HIGHLY that Jesus would be happy with most christian churches, for example, because of how a select few have misinterpreted his teachings. Many christians don't go to church for this very reason.