Materialism

[Radagast]

My ex-wife and I had very different ideas on childrearing and I was never comfortable with the values I saw being taught to the children. Because we were much older parents we were already financially comfortable and she felt they should have everything we never had as kids. We had to buy a bigger house so the children could each have a second room for all their stuff. They were given a generous allowance, more than the minimum wage, and extra for any chores they did, if ever.

 

After the divorce things improved. My wife and I share similar values and I liked the way she raised her children. She helped curtail some of the worst excesses and having consistent messages from both of us helped.

 

At the start of the recession my ex-wife chose to celebrate her 60th abroad in complete luxury and took the kids. Now my son is wanting to celebrate his 21st travelling through Asia instead of having a party and his mother has assumed she will be going with him as some kind of "payback". He has told me he doesn't want her to go along because he's "tired of galleries and choral concerts", instead he wants us to fund his girlfriend to go with him (her parents have been hit by the recession). He doesn't want to tell his mother yet that he has another companion in mind because he is enjoying having her researching the best hotels, visa logistics and other travel arrangements and worries that she will take offence and pull the funding plug. He has asked me to tell her that I think it would be more appropriate that his girlfriend should go but I have refused to do that. I have told him I am willing to contribute a reasonable sum towards his celebration, whatever form that takes, but expect him to raise the rest of the money and take responsibility for making the arrangements himself. His mother is willing to throw a whole lot more money at it but she is assuming she will be going along. He is not being honest with her and I get the sense he is trying to play us off against each other on this.

 

I am feeling very angry about the whole thing and the sense of entitlement I sense underlying it and have considered withdrawing the offer of any funding and instead investing some money for him to help him buy a car or house once he settles down. My wife thinks that would be unreasonable if I have already offered him money, and I should stick to that but make my terms clear and also firmly recommend that he is honest with his mother about his plans before she commits money for deposits that she will stand to lose. And that I tell him what I feel about the morality of position. I feel awkward about this as the children have always regarded my anti-consumerist stance as personal criticism and I don't want him to see it as a rejection of him. Though my wife says if I don't say anything and he does go ahead with tricking his mother into funding his girlfriend I will lose respect for him and rejection will happen, and best he knows where I stand on this. She has been explicit about this and so he no longer discusses it with her.

 

Does anyone have any creative suggestions out of this impasse?

[TaraMaiden]

(...)

I am feeling very angry about the whole thing and the sense of entitlement I sense underlying it and have considered withdrawing the offer of any funding and instead investing some money for him to help him buy a car or house once he settles down. My wife thinks that would be unreasonable if I have already offered him money, and I should stick to that but make my terms clear and also firmly recommend that he is honest with his mother about his plans before she commits money for deposits that she will stand to lose. And that I tell him what I feel about the morality of position. I feel awkward about this as the children have always regarded my anti-consumerist stance as personal criticism and I don't want him to see it as a rejection of him. Though my wife says if I don't say anything and he does go ahead with tricking his mother into funding his girlfriend I will lose respect for him and rejection will happen, and best he knows where I stand on this. She has been explicit about this and so he no longer discusses it with her.

 

Does anyone have any creative suggestions out of this impasse?

 

Well, I hate to say it, but waves will be made, whatever you decide - and /i think it's this, that you are aiming to avoid.

while i admire your magnanimous attitude - it can't be done, because people are people....

 

Your course of action, as i see it, is to explain to him that he is now an adult. And notwithstanding the fact that he is your son, you will respect him as one, and speak to him as you would any other adult.

You expect him to meet with his mother, and to come clean about the situation, and be honest with her.

If he feels unable or unwilling to do so, then make it very clear to him that if he doesn't tell her - then you will.

you guys may be divorced, and you may have had your reasons, but you will not tolerate a child taking advantage of his mother, and being secretive and sneaky about his intentions.

He needs to 'man up', be responsible and accountable for his actions.

His mother may assume she has some kind of entitlement due to her party arrangements, but that is for them to discuss with each other.

Whatever the outcome, he has to suck it up. This is part of the adult world, and in the adult world you do not take advantage of those who should mean the most to you.

Now, you have assured him you will aid him financially by making an investment for his future; and that offer of assistance still stands.

However, it is dependent on him proving he is capable of making his own way, standing on his own two feet and being responsible for his decisions and actions.

And you greatly dislike being put in a position where a potential conflict could arise between you and your ex- simply because your (joint) son sees fit to resort to deception and subterfuge.

You were married then you separated. that didn't stop you being joint parents, and so whatever decisions he makes about his attitude to her, reflects on you, also.

 

He has until *whenever* to make his decision and come clean to his mother, and you expect a call from her to confirm that he has done this. Otherwise, you will discuss the matter with her, yourself, and he will have to accept the consequences.

[Radagast]

Thank you. I guess I am being "conflict avoidant" over this. If I am to respect either of us, I'll have to bite the bullet and have the talk. He will be down for the weekend. I will speak to him then, in person.

[TaraMaiden]

I hope everything goes ok.

Family conflicts are painful - but they do pass.

you must have had some white-knuckle moments leading up to, including and after your divorce - but look, here you are - you survived the dramas, huh?

 

Family crises come and go. I know they are damn uncomfortable 'in the thick of it' - but if you stay kind, calm and logical, not raise your voice and just tell him - "son, this is not up for discussion" - This too shall pass.....

 

Let me know how it goes.

 

If you go over 100 posts, you can PM me, because I may not be a frequent visitor for a while, but I'll know if you contact me....

[Radagast]

Thanks. It was awkward, but less difficult than I'd feared. There were some tears and recriminations but I think we cleared the air. Though I did hear him say to my wife that he's having second thoughts about the whole trip, and I hope I did not ruin his dreams. My wife says some second thoughts may just be realism setting in about what it is he'll be undertaking which is not a bad thing.

[TaraMaiden]

the only person who can 'ruin his dreams' is him, and it sounds like he came to the conclusion of re-thinking the trip, on his own.

It's important to have dreams - but it's equally important to keep our feet on the ground, be sensible, be logical and rational.

We also have to be honest and realistic, else our dreams can be the stuff of nightmares - for ourselves, and for others.....

 

I hope things progress well.

Family dramas can be intense, but having had a fair share of my own - both with my parents, and in turn, my children - i know things like this can be overcome.

the important is not to hold on to baggage, and to forgive the trivial.

And when it comes to family love - it's all trivial.

[Kamille]

Thanks. It was awkward, but less difficult than I'd feared. There were some tears and recriminations but I think we cleared the air. Though I did hear him say to my wife that he's having second thoughts about the whole trip, and I hope I did not ruin his dreams. My wife says some second thoughts may just be realism setting in about what it is he'll be undertaking which is not a bad thing.

 

Your current wife has a good head on her shoulders. Throughout you presentation of the issue, I've found myself agreeing with her take on things. It's lovely to see a couple capable of facing challenges together.

 

But what I wanted to say is this:

 

I think you just gave your son the best of gift of all by treating him like an adult. He might have to revise or delay his trip, but you've shown him that you trust he's capable of taking responsibility for his actions. You've also shown him that you believe he's capable of making his dreams happen on his own, without resorting to manipulation. That's the kind of "teaching moment" that has lifelong value.

[turnera]

I'm sorry, but the more you give children, the less they will want to, or be able to, give themselves as adults. A trip through Asia? Really?

 

Give him $1000 (WAY too much, IMO), and tell him to go live it up and hire a cab afterwards. Let him choose how to spend it, but do NOT feel guilty about not contributing to spoiling him. We do our children NO favors by not making them work for what they get.

 

I was just having this conversation with my DD21 yesterday (I was visiting her at college, where she's taking out loans and paying it back when she graduates). MY mom told me I was giving her too much (we waited 10 years to have her, so we were well off, too), and I tried to pull back, but husband never did.

 

She told me that the problem was that we kept giving her stuff before she even asked for it!

 

We are very lucky she didn't turn out spoiled and learned the value of a dollar; it could have been a nightmare.

 

It's not too late for you to pull back the pursestrings. In fact, now that he's 21, it's a great time for you to say 'I'm so proud of you. And because of that, I'm doing you the best favor yet - letting you take care of yourself. If you need money from me, come to me, and we'll talk about how you can earn it.'

[Radagast]

I'm sorry, but the more you give children, the less they will want to, or be able to, give themselves as adults. A trip through Asia? Really?

 

Give him $1000 (WAY too much, IMO), and tell him to go live it up and hire a cab afterwards. Let him choose how to spend it, but do NOT feel guilty about not contributing to spoiling him. We do our children NO favors by not making them work for what they get.

 

I was just having this conversation with my DD21 yesterday (I was visiting her at college, where she's taking out loans and paying it back when she graduates). MY mom told me I was giving her too much (we waited 10 years to have her, so we were well off, too), and I tried to pull back, but husband never did.

 

She told me that the problem was that we kept giving her stuff before she even asked for it!

 

We are very lucky she didn't turn out spoiled and learned the value of a dollar; it could have been a nightmare.

 

It's not too late for you to pull back the pursestrings. In fact, now that he's 21, it's a great time for you to say 'I'm so proud of you. And because of that, I'm doing you the best favor yet - letting you take care of yourself. If you need money from me, come to me, and we'll talk about how you can earn it.'

 

This view comes close to the values my wife and I share. Her children were raised having to earn their pocket money, above and beyond chores that were simply a part of their responsibility as contributing members of their household. My ex-wife had rather different values, however, which led in large part to the breakdown in our relationship.

 

I worry that the materialistic values cultivated in our children will do them a huge disservice. Not only because they will be spoiled and set up to be terrible partners, colleagues or roommates, but because their acquisitiveness can only lead to long term disappointment as they find themselves on a treadmill of wanting more and more and more and never reaping satisfaction from any of it. I have tried to explain this to them before but it invariably ends in accusations and tears and their getting whatever it was they wanted from their mother. It doesn't help that so many of their peers have been similarly indulged, growing up.

 

But you're right. His coming of age offers a wonderful opportunity to place the relationship on a whole new footing.

[Radagast]

Thank you, all, for your support and advice on this.

[TaraMaiden]

Interestingly, all the people who have given you advice in your thread - have been women.

you've had 149 hits - I can't believe all of those have also been women.

It's just a 'musing out loud' - but given that this is a 'Dad/Son' situation, i'm a little surprised you've had no male input....

 

curious.....

 

just 'noodling'.....

[irin]

i think you should tell his mother, parents have to be a team, even if divorced or children grown up. give him a chance to tell his mother if not, tell her before she pays for the arrangements and then be left behind.

 

i hope your son knows how lucky he is, most people his age dont really get much from their parents. its sad to hear him take his parents for granted and all the privileges they provided him with. send him to a third world country so he sees who some people struggle.

[Radagast]

send him to a third world country so he sees who some people struggle.

 

It's interesting that you suggest this. When he was in high school he went on a school trip to Africa. He begged to go and although it was very expensive I agreed because I thought it would be a good idea for the reason you suggest. The school trip was supposed to include helping build an orphanage as well as some sightseeing. Shortly before departure he decided he did not want to go because the other kids going weren't "cool" and a friend of his had invited him to hang out at a festival during the time of the trip. We had already paid for the trip, the tickets were bought as well as other expenses (equipment, inoculations, visas, etc) and I was very unhappy about his decision to opt out and basically throw away all of that money. My ex-wife and I disagreed about it. She felt that if he was going to be unhappy he should not have to go and he should rather do something he would enjoy. I felt that he had begged to go, had committed a large amount of his parents' money and time and had responsibilities to see the project through or at least make some recompense for not doing so. I felt it was important that there be consequences. He had a track record of signing up for activities and dropping out after a single session when we had already paid for a full term.

 

He went. He hated it. He plugged in his ipod and ignored the other kids for the entire trip. He did not participate in any of the activities and was sullen and rude to the teachers. Even the sightseeing he hated as it involved outdoors pursuits like walking and canoeing which were "uncool". He complained about the food and the accommodation and the lack of privacy. I felt he had missed the whole point of the trip and lost a wonderful opportunity. My ex-wife felt smug and vindicated and lost no opportunity to tell me that I clearly did not have my son's best interests at heart or I would not have made such a big deal about his seeing it through. So, this is somewhat of a sore point for me.

[TaraMaiden]

Radagast, forgive my saying so, but he sounds like a spoiled brat, and his mother's to blame.

i apologise if that offends you...

 

However.....

 

He's an adult now, so i think that neither you nor your ex should in any way feel obligated or compelled to fund anything he decides to do now, or in the future.

 

Of course, that's down to personal choice, and you can withdraw from supporting him, just as much as your wife might decide to continue....

 

But don't let him play you off against her, and now that he's an adult, don't get drawn into any arguments with your ex.

The child is gone.

Here cometh the man.

And if you enable him to stand on his own two feet by leaving him to his own devices - then he's going to have to learn to swim, fast - or sink/be forever tied to his mother's apron strings.

 

Their choice.

[turnera]

Same here. He's been brought up to be a spoiled brat with no concern for anyone else. Time to stop the flow of 'stuff' to him and let him earn anything he wants. You want a new jacket? Here's the rake.

 

btw, did you tell him that you were ashamed of him for how he acted on that trip?

 

You need to. It's not too late. It would help him to hear that from you.

[Radagast]

Same here. He's been brought up to be a spoiled brat with no concern for anyone else. Time to stop the flow of 'stuff' to him and let him earn anything he wants. You want a new jacket? Here's the rake.

 

btw, did you tell him that you were ashamed of him for how he acted on that trip?

 

You need to. It's not too late. It would help him to hear that from you.

 

I told him at the time that I was disappointed.