After the break up....xMM good or evil?

[Spark1111]

I cannot believe all the assumptions in affairs.

 

I cannot believe all that is NOT communicated in an affair.

 

The projections are astounding to me; as if a real truthful conversation will burst the fantasy bubble.

 

Some of you had more truth than others. You are lucky in that regard.

 

fBS here.....

 

I fell in love with the same man you did. I married him and we shared a life together with all its ups and downs.

 

Somewhere in your relationship, you and he crossed boundaries and you fell for each other.

 

Maybe you started wanting more than crumbs, maybe he sensed it. Maybe he started to promise you a future in an effort to keep the fantasy bubble alive or out of guilt he felt for you. Maybe you wanted to believe him.

 

Maybe a big part of continuing the affair was to ALLOW you to ASSUME he wasn't happy with me, blah, blah, blah.

 

How can the same man we both fell for be the scourge of the earth when dday hits and he is finally forced to make a choice or lose one of us?

 

Or, like FN, you realize he isn't leaving, you want more, and it is time to move on?

 

Did I like his actions? Did you? Of course not. But he is still the same man we both fell in love with.

[SidLyon]

What would you think about him if you found out he had moved onto another OW? Would you then think he just "wanted to be with the two women he loved?" ...

 

Or if he had an OOW at the same time? If it's possible to sincerely love 2 women (BW and OW) at the same time then surely it's possible to love 3 or more...

 

Is there a limit or is it still just a guy who wants to be with the x number of women he loves?

 

While I like the way Nemo expresses it I just wonder for her, how far it goes.

 

I guess I never quite "get" why many OW don't mind so much about the BW, but really, really mind about OOW.

 

As a fBW even just one OW was one too many.

[TurningTables]

Hi all.

As for me, right now I do wish I could push xMM into shark infested waters, push him off a bridge, etc...things like that. lol However, I know where its coming from. Im angry at him and Im angry at myself. I think alot of fOW/fOM feel this after a A is over. Its easier to be mad and say things about the person that didnt choose you. It enables them to deal with the hurt and pain.

 

xMM is a nice man. He was after all, my best friend for years before any romantic feelings came into play ( at least on my end).He is the same person that made me smile, laugh and listen to me when Id complain about this and that. I already loved him on a friendship level. I think that he just has alot of issues and wont face them because he hates conflict. Even as friends, he would never fight with me. He would just stop talking altogether and avoid it. I knew all this before our EA.

 

I dont know..I go from hating him to missing him and basically everything in between. I can thankfully say that these moments are starting to grow more and more distant.

 

I still have a long road to go.......

[findingnemo]

What would you think about him if you found out he had moved onto another OW? Would you then think he just "wanted to be with the two women he loved?" Or would you think he is just a selfish entitled jerk?

 

That's easy...a selfish entitled jerk!!!

[findingnemo]

Or if he had an OOW at the same time? If it's possible to sincerely love 2 women (BW and OW) at the same time then surely it's possible to love 3 or more...

 

Is there a limit or is it still just a guy who wants to be with the x number of women he loves?

 

While I like the way Nemo expresses it I just wonder for her, how far it goes.

 

I guess I never quite "get" why many OW don't mind so much about the BW, but really, really mind about OOW.

 

As a fBW even just one OW was one too many.

 

There is simply no valid reason for being in an A. That's how I see it now. Before the A, I definitely thought it was bad for MPs to have As but it was more from a moral standpoint...and frankly it never occurred to me that I would ever be the OW. Now that I've been there, I know why these rules exist. I'm saying all this because I'm about to give some excuses in trying to explain why I think he has limits. (Bear with me.)

 

Why did xMM have an A? I'm not sure if such a term exists but I'd say it's residual love - love from the past for lack of a better description. We were in a proper R and very much in love. The R ended abruptly. We didn't fight or have any differences except that I wasn't ready to get M at that time. He went into immediate NC and decided to move on thinking I didn't love him. He got back together with his former fiancee (long story) and got M months later.

 

He feels that he made a decision to M while not in a good place psychologically. Not only had he lost the person he loved (me), he also lost his only parent in the same period. His mother was in excellent shape but needed minor surgery. It was a shock when she died on the operating table because of medical negligence. He made a number of decisions about his life after her death. While most were reversible, getting M wasn't. From the moment he decided to get M, he proposed and got M within 3 weeks. Perhaps if he'd given it the standard time for wedding preparations, he'd have changed his mind as he had once before when he proposed to his W the first time (she was his fiancee before he met me). This is basically why I believe he still had feelings for me...

 

While I did suspect one particular woman as OW years after our A ended, I found out it wasn't true. I've never heard anything else. We've known each other for years and have the same social circles. In the future, he may have As, I can't say he absolutely won't. But in the last 8 years since we stopped, he hasn't. That says something to me about his character. His only problem is me. If I had agreed to seeing him again at any point in all these years, he would have resumed the A. Please realize that I'm not trying to portray myself as a strong person. When it comes to xMM, I'm not.

 

Maybe I'm romanticizing things by saying that because of everything I've just said the love he feels for me is true. XMM has been very consistent in the almost 2 decades I've known him. He could surprise me though.

 

The thing is I came to a conclusion after years and years dealing with loving someone I can't have to myself, that I love myself more. That loving xMM is not a bad thing per se, it's what I do about it that counts. Having an A is not good for me and it's definitely not good for him. If I love him, really love him then I should let him be happy. Destroying his family, his happiness and my peace of mind by having an A is the opposite of love. I wish I knew that years ago.

 

Hope this makes sense somehow. Now back to the original question. I have t/j- ed my own thread just to give some background and was trying to be brief. Didn't quite manage, but hopefully you can now understand the whole "love two women" concept.

[findingnemo]

sometimes I wonder if when a married man/woman tells their affair partner that they want to leave their marriage do they really mean it at that point in time? Maybe they do, I don't know. I guess each person is different. Maybe they are just daydreaming, but when reality hits, they realize it's not what they want...

again, I don't know.

 

I've always wondered the same thing, FS. With only my experience where I never heard that, I often wonder how the mind of the MM works at the point when he says he's leaving. This happens when I read other posters stories. My xMM made me understand from day one that it wasn't about leaving his W, not loving his W or anything W oriented. When he talked of his family he talked of them as a team. Him, the W and their kids. I always saw the W as an integral part of that team as did he. So to me the question was, would he leave his team, their achievements, their dreams for the future for me?

 

I wonder how other MMs see their Ws and families and whether or not many of them are in reality the same as xMM but just don't say it.

[seren]

I always found it interesting that on DDay, my first act was to ensure that H's relationship with our son wasn't damaged, and felt sorry for H as he was obviously feeling like s*** for what he had done. OW kept ringing and saying what a b****** he was as he wouldn't return her calls and had eneded it with her. I found all this very ironic as I was the one who had no idea what was going on and she had entered into the A knowing that they both were hurting others by their actions.

 

I knew that H was a conflict avoider, the A hadn't thrown up any conflicts for them as meetings were so shortlived and not based in everyday life so she had no experience of how H handled anything he couldn't handle. I wasn't surpried at his actions, she was, which left me thinking how little she actually knew about him, which might be why many OW/OM feel let down after D Day, they have been fed all sorts of when .... scenarios and believe the MP.

 

I don't believe all people who have A's are bad or evil, I do, however, believe all A's are bad and evil based upon the hurt and damage they do to others.

[beenburned]

Sid,

 

Your post was very thought provoking!

 

I frequently read about a lot of these same types of affairs.

 

I have also experienced it in real life with STBXSIL.

 

The majority of OW are OK with the MM cheating on his wife. But let them find out about him cheating on them, with a different OW, all he** breaks loose!

 

I find this very hypocritical! Maybe some of the OW/FOW here can explain why this is.

[Spark1111]

Sid,

 

Your post was very thought provoking!

 

I frequently read about a lot of these same types of affairs.

 

I have also experienced it in real life with STBXSIL.

 

The majority of OW are OK with the MM cheating on his wife. But let them find out about him cheating on them, with a different OW, all he** breaks loose!

 

I find this very hypocritical! Maybe some of the OW/FOW here can explain why this is.

 

In an effort to encourage empathy, I started a thread on it.

 

Almost all who responded said they would kick him to the curb, the pain of deception would be too great.

 

WTH??????????????????????????

 

Meanwhile, I asked them how can they be sure he wasn't chatting upthe new girl at the office or trawling media sites to find old girlfriends?

 

He had the perfect cover of being married, didn't he?

 

They agreed they would never know because he wasn't always accessible to be reached because he claimed to with his family.

 

It's the perfect cover.

[findingnemo]

Maybe it's because the MM tells the OW that he is cheating because of X, Y and Z. Whatever the reason, the OW thinks that it's an aberration. So when she finds out there is a OOW, crap! Suddenly every single thing he ever said was a full on lie. I'm just theorizing really...

 

I know that I couldn't stand xMM sleeping with his W although there was nothing I could do about it. That was one thing I hated about the whole thing. Intellectually I knew it was happening but I couldn't bring myself to seriously think about it. So I guess if there is ever a OOW then I'll be one of those who knows that everything I believed about him was lie.

 

Is it hypocritical for me to think that it was okay for him to cheat with me but that he'll be a a$$$hat if he finds a OOW? I don't think it was okay for him to cheat AT ALL. I never did...yet there I was enabling it. Was I being a hypocrite then? Absolutely and he had no qualms telling me I was. Am I being hypocritical now? That's hard for me to answer primarily because I sincerely believe he isn't a serial cheater. Now whether that's a fact or not...is another matter.

Edited March 30, 2012 by findingnemo
Typos

[wannabdone]

I always found it interesting that on DDay, my first act was to ensure that H's relationship with our son wasn't damaged, and felt sorry for H as he was obviously feeling like s*** for what he had done. OW kept ringing and saying what a b****** he was as he wouldn't return her calls and had eneded it with her. I found all this very ironic as I was the one who had no idea what was going on and she had entered into the A knowing that they both were hurting others by their actions.

 

I knew that H was a conflict avoider, the A hadn't thrown up any conflicts for them as meetings were so shortlived and not based in everyday life so she had no experience of how H handled anything he couldn't handle. I wasn't surpried at his actions, she was, which left me thinking how little she actually knew about him, which might be why many OW/OM feel let down after D Day, they have been fed all sorts of when .... scenarios and believe the MP.

 

I don't believe all people who have A's are bad or evil, I do, however, believe all A's are bad and evil based upon the hurt and damage they do to others.

 

Awesome post Seren!

 

I think most ppl who have A are conflict avoiders. I know for a fact my xMM was. Although I NEVER saw it until I stepped away from it. He blamed all of HIS conflict avoidance on having a over bearing, controlling, manipulative wife. Wow, just goes to show how foolish one can be when they have the wool pulled over their eyes. How on earth I could not see him for what he really was, and how it was this poor helpless 270 lb man, being controlled by this tiny BS.

 

I SMH when I think about it.

[beenburned]

nemo,

Thanks for your point of view!

 

To summarize this: An OW believes the MM is only cheating because of all the reasons he has stated to her.

 

So, if she finds out he is also cheating on her, it is not acceptable because he had no good reasons for cheating on the OW.

 

Is this correct, or did I misinterpret?

[KeepMeInMind]

What do you think about your xMM? Is he a good guy or a bad guy? Why do think so?

 

I wonder because many times it seems to me like people think the xMM is a "bad" guy. I don't...and I started thinking about it because it came up in another thread. So here's what I think of xMM.

 

He was/is a good man. He was selfish for a while and wanted to have the two women he loved in his life. Basically cake eating. But it isn't a reflection of his overall personality. I believe he's not a serial cheater (maybe his W would disagree - no idea) but all the things I saw and loved in him when I first met him remain true. I'm not excusing his cheating by the way.

 

I find it odd that a OW would fall in love with a man and later decide that he is a monster ( a liar, a cheat, a selfish man who doesn't deserve the love of his W). To make matters worse, I keep seeing people claiming to pity the BW who chooses to stay...I didn't get it. In my case, I think she should stay because he is a good man...who made a mistake. So I need to understand.

 

What do you think about your xMM now? Why do you think whatever it is?

 

 

I feel exactly as you do about mine. He is everything I wanted in a man, in a partner, in a friend. We connect in ways that cannot be explained, and I hate to say, I fear cannot be duplicated.

[jwi71]

I feel exactly as you do about mine. He is everything I wanted in a man, in a partner, in a friend. We connect in ways that cannot be explained, and I hate to say, I fear cannot be duplicated.

 

Patently untrue.

You'll just have to trust this anonymous Internet poster guy on this one.

 

What is available for you is the whole cake and not just the crumbs. Give yourself time to mourn. Then give yourself time for introspection. Then give yourself time to process and learn from those.

 

Then you'll see it

Just gonna have to trust me on that one.

 

Oh, one caveat though. You have to actually do the work to get there.

Might as well get started now, and LS is a good first step.

[KeepMeInMind]

What's untrue?

[findingnemo]

nemo,

Thanks for your point of view!

 

To summarize this: An OW believes the MM is only cheating because of all the reasons he has stated to her.

 

So, if she finds out he is also cheating on her, it is not acceptable because he had no good reasons for cheating on the OW.

 

Is this correct, or did I misinterpret?

 

Oohh..this is really hard but let me attempt to answer your questions...

 

Yes and...no. Yes a OW (or at least in my case) believes that the MM is cheating for a specific reason. I believe he cheated because he loved me. Stupid really...not a reason..but an excuse. It's an explanation of why he was with me.

 

And no...if she finds out he has a OOW it means he never had good reason to cheat at all. Ever... The reasons he gave for cheating on his W are all lies. If my xMM has a OOW then every single thing I believe about us, all the years, everything from day one...from even when we were in a proper R...is a lie.

 

The idea that he lied all along...and about everything...would be so devastating that I wouldn't even know how to describe it. It matters not that our A was immoral when it comes to my feelings. That's the sad truth about As. It doesn't make the betrayal easier to digest for a OW because he was M. Just because I was duped and I would now know it wouldn't make it more palatable. It's not a competition over who feels more pain...I can only imagine that the BW in this case would feel 100 times more pain than I do. I just don't understand why anybody who loves should be subjected to any pain at all. It all seems so freaking unnecessary. Dramatic? Maybe...probably considering I knew he was M when we started the A.

 

I think that apart from the obviously selfish cake eating serial cheaters, WS' just don't realize the havoc they wreck. If they knew what infidelity does to all involved they would never as perfectly normal humans, with the minimum respect for human emotions, go down that path.

 

Whew! This took a long time to write...

[NoIDidn't]

Great thread!

 

The reason I often ask why the OW demonizes the MM after the affair is over is because so often the OW here attempt to demonize our husbands that have had any type of affair. And, in doing so, attempt to paint us as stupid or duped for still being married to them.

 

My H was, and still is to some degree, a conflict avoider. He was in a great deal of pain that he had trouble articulating to me after the death of his mother. And he was NOT the best partner I could have asked for during that time period. As a person that is not a conflict avoider, I had no problem telling him so. And probably didn't do so in the most effective way.

 

But I could see why she fell for him AND why she never demonized him either. Unfortunately, she and her friends attempted to demonize me. But no matter. I am still learning and growing just like everybody else is.

 

The most important thing I have learned from this thread is how the OW's expectations played into how they feel about the MM after the affair is over, regardless of how it ends (amicably or bitterly). It seems that if the OW felt the MM was cheating because his spouse was so horrible (whether assumed or told), or because the OW was too good to pass up (signs of a cake eater), or whatever reason agreeable to the OW, that the MM was in the wrong for leading her to believe these things and that's why he ends up demonized.

 

Unmet expectations = bitterness? Usually, no matter what label one gives themselves.

[jwi71]

What's untrue?

 

Ack!!

 

After reading your reply I realized I wasn't clear to what's untrue.

 

What is untrue is not finding another man like that, discovering those feelings again.

 

You will find those feelings again and so much more.

[NoIDidn't]

I think that apart from the obviously selfish cake eating serial cheaters, WS' just don't realize the havoc they wreck. If they knew what infidelity does to all involved they would never as perfectly normal humans, with the minimum respect for human emotions, go down that path.

 

And there is the rub. If they knew the outcome, they wouldn't have done it.

[jwi71]

And there is the rub. If they knew the outcome' date=' they wouldn't have done it.[/quote']

 

I disagree.

 

Only the most clueless and ignorant WS doesnt realize that an A will hurt others.

 

They do it because THEY won't get caught.

[NoIDidn't]

I disagree.

 

Only the most clueless and ignorant WS doesnt realize that an A will hurt others.

 

They do it because THEY won't get caught.

 

We can agree to disagree, though I suspect we are saying the same thing.

 

They thought they wouldn't get caught which implies they wouldn't have the outcome of getting caught. At least that's MO.

[findingnemo]

And there is the rub. If they knew the outcome' date=' they wouldn't have done it.[/quote']

 

I agree...

[KeepMeInMind]

Or, until actually living it, don't truly grasp the hurt.

[jwi71]

We can agree to disagree, though I suspect we are saying the same thing.

 

They thought they wouldn't get caught which implies they wouldn't have the outcome of getting caught. At least that's MO.

 

Ohhhhhh.

 

I read that differently. Yeah, we agree.

[NoIDidn't]

Or, until actually living it, don't truly grasp the hurt.

 

Exactly!!!