Why do some people see not wanting to have kids as being selfish?

[stillafool]

A person who doesn't have kids also doesn't have the support a child offers later in life. More of their needs will ultimately have to be met by the taxpayer.

 

That's pretty selfish.

 

People without kids feel it is selfish of others to expect them to pay taxes for children's services when they do not have children. Most people who don't have children will have saved enough money to retire and pay for their own expenses. Most do not rely on the taxpayer for their income. People raising kids will more than likely need help from the taxpayer later in life to meet their needs as they will not have saved enough money for retirement because they have had to pay to raise and educate their children. Now more than ever kids are coming out of college and moving back home. Most of these kids won't be able to contribute financially to their aging parents because they will have to save for their own retirements as social security won't even be available for them when they get old.

[veggirl]

Seriously, it's like saying, I don't drive so don't use my tax money for road repairs :rolleyes:

[johan]

On the other hand, the unborn children are not living lives producing carbon dioxide, so maybe that balances things out.

[Ross MwcFan]

On the other hand, the unborn children are not living lives producing carbon dioxide, so maybe that balances things out.

 

And it'll be a less of a drain on the worlds oxygen supply too.

[johan]

And it'll be a less of a drain on the worlds oxygen supply too.

 

And they won't be crapping in the water.

 

On the other hand, they won't be around to be the targets of criminals, focusing the attention of the bad guys onto the rest of us.

[zengirl]

Even though I'm a parent, I find it hilarious when people point the selfish finger at others who don't want children. As if people have children for the good of humanity! Hypocrites.

 

Honestly, I only see this line of thought from parents who are unhappy being parents and feel restricted by their parenthood (I mean, every parent feels a little restricted, just as many choices restrict us, even ones we LOVE, but the ones who've grown to resent it). I think they're just jealous. Most people don't seem to feel this way, though.

 

I know more people who "just can't imagine" why you wouldn't want children than people who guilt-trip about it.

[threebyfate]

Honestly, I only see this line of thought from parents who are unhappy being parents and feel restricted by their parenthood (I mean, every parent feels a little restricted, just as many choices restrict us, even ones we LOVE, but the ones who've grown to resent it). I think they're just jealous. Most people don't seem to feel this way, though.

 

I know more people who "just can't imagine" why you wouldn't want children than people who guilt-trip about it.

Even though I'm part of the glad to be a parent contingency, I can't fathom pushing anyone to have them.

 

Children are a HUGE investment of time, energy and money where quite often, they're the reason why marriages break down because the parents can't make ends meet and end up not having enough time together or energy, to maintain their own romantic bonds.

 

Quite frankly, if people aren't much into or begrudge giving of themselves, they really shouldn't be parents.

[johan]

Quite frankly, if people aren't much into or begrudge giving of themselves, they really shouldn't be parents.

 

i.e. if they are selfish.

[threebyfate]

i.e. if they are selfish.

Might be or might not be. It's by degrees, as well as what people prioritize. Not everyone is limitless in their intrapersonal contact, particularly introverts.

 

And for trolling me too, I'm busting your trolling in this thread! The role you were playing was the commie conservative.

[johan]

Might be or might not be. It's by degrees, as well as what people prioritize. Not everyone is limitless in their intrapersonal contact, particularly introverts.

 

And for trolling me too, I'm busting your trolling in this thread! The role you were playing was the commie conservative.

 

Yeah, some of that was a bit over the top.

 

But in my mind it's kind of hard to get around what seems to be the truth. It kind of is a life of "me" when you choose not to have kids. Instead of working to overcome your own shortcomings as a parent, or as a human, people just take the easy way out. They claim it's better that way, but ultimately they are just denying someone else a life.

 

I see both sides, but one has more cop out in it than the other.

Edited April 7, 2012 by johan

[threebyfate]

Maybe.

 

But in my mind it's kind of hard to get around what seems to be the truth. It kind of is a life of "me" when you choose not to have kids. Instead of working to overcome your own shortcomings as a parent, or as a human, people just take the easy way out. They claim it's better that way, but ultimately they are just denying someone else a life.

 

I see both sides, but one has more cop out in it than the other.

Okay, I'll play.

 

Considering the global population, why is it necessary to breed more? Immigration meets the same need while maintaining global population within carrying capacity.

[johan]

Okay, I'll play.

 

Considering the global population, why is it necessary to breed more? Immigration meets the same need while maintaining global population within carrying capacity.

 

Well, that's beside the point, in my mind.

 

I just think about this sometimes, and there is this point of view I don't see an easy way to escape. When it comes to life, not giving it is as good as taking it away. And of all the things you can do in life, giving life is by far the most significant capability you have. There really isn't anything else that compares.

 

You have a profound ability that you keep locked up for some relatively lame excuse like "I wouldn't be a good parent" or "the world is crowded", when in reality all you're doing is denying someone life who, if you could ask them, they would really appreciate a shot at.

 

You're keeping all the life to yourself, because you don't want to try to be a better person or provide a better life. That's pretty selfish.

[january2011]

Some interesting viewpoints.

 

I wonder how far one can go though? Since we are born with these bags of eggs inside us - do we try to give life to all of them? Surely only allowing one or a few of them the chance at life would seem unfair to the others because we have the poor excuse that we can't afford to have anymore kids or our health/finances would suffer? And as a man, if you ejaculate into any receptacle that isn't a vagina, are you committing murder because you've not given those sperm the chance to meet an egg? The chance to create life?

 

I've always been curious about people who try to impose parenthood on others. I can understand if close family members feel that they have a say or want to voice their opinion. But I'm of the view that this is one of those situations where it should come down to personal choice based on personal circumstances.

 

We are limited by our biology but it's also fair to say that we've gone beyond procreating for the survival of the species. I don't feel that I owe my fellow humans children or that I owe my future children the chance at life. But I do feel that it's each person's right to choose when it comes down to this particular topic. To be called selfish for exercising the right to choose whether to bring a life into the world that doesn't even exist yet (and I'm not talking about the issue of abortion and when a foetus is considered to be a baby) seems alien to me.

[threebyfate]

Well, that's beside the point, in my mind.

Perhaps as a convenient way to ignore the overarching reality of overpopulation. If mankind doesn't start limiting their breeding, it won't take long to exceed the carrying capacity of Earth.

 

I just think about this sometimes, and there is this point of view I don't see an easy way to escape. When it comes to life, not giving it is as good as taking it away. And of all the things you can do in life, giving life is by far the most significant capability you have. There really isn't anything else that compares.

 

You have a profound ability that you keep locked up for some relatively lame excuse like "I wouldn't be a good parent" or "the world is crowded", when in reality all you're doing is denying someone life who, if you could ask them, they would really appreciate a shot at.

 

You're keeping all the life to yourself, because you don't want to try to be a better person or provide a better life. That's pretty selfish.

This assumes that there's a transcendental nature to life, where in some ways, you might have a point if viewing everything within the universe as energy which converts to matter (life) or matter that dissipates to energy (death). But as it pertains to human cognition in any prepackaged manner, I sincerely doubt this.

 

There's no "duty" to create human life. Nothing beyond "duty" created by societal constructs such as religion which was duty created at a time when human population was low. What better way to ensure for future followers, much like the gift that keeps on giving.

 

The only thing I envy about religion is wanting to try what Moses was smoking, during his interaction with the burning bush!

[january2011]

Edited to add - I think that children are precious and should be loved and cherished but I draw the line at sperm and egg that haven't even met yet.

[rickys]

It all depends on situations that why a person don't want a child..!

If it is that after a child they will lose their freedom, then it is purely selfish and on the other side if it because they are not ready for child then it is far from selfishness...

[zengirl]

Yeah, some of that was a bit over the top.

 

But in my mind it's kind of hard to get around what seems to be the truth. It kind of is a life of "me" when you choose not to have kids. Instead of working to overcome your own shortcomings as a parent, or as a human, people just take the easy way out. They claim it's better that way, but ultimately they are just denying someone else a life.

 

I see both sides, but one has more cop out in it than the other.

 

Perhaps to a degree, it is a "life of me" and I honestly can't see anything wrong with that. Whether you choose to have kids or not, I hope you do so with enlightened self-interest and only if it's best for yourself. All things done outside of enlightened self interest generally blow up in your (general you) face!

 

I don't consider myself a selfish person at all -- I do act with enlightened self-interest in all things, but I understand that the interests of others are important to the interests of me, and that the well-being of ALL people is essential to my quality of life. Someone setting aside their energy and compassion and care for just their offspring and not the world is, IMO, much more selfish than the way I think I live. Someone who be perfectly content to let strangers die on their streets as long as their own children are safe is certainly selfish, no? Etc.

 

I actually see HAVING children as an act of ego in some cases, not all by any means -- many people are great parents who take joy from the lifestyle of parenthood and simply view it as a life choice, but people who take this view of children, as though it is a humane and unselfish thing to do, as though their need to pass on their genes is so enormous and such a selfless act. Now, a lot of times those children will come and smash those people's egos down -- they tend to get problem-children, and that's kind of awesome. But it's a very egoistic notion to me.

 

I can certainly be selfish from time to time (we all can) but I definitely don't think having kids would make me any more selfless. I would have to take time away from volunteering, my job at the nonprofit, and probably be less able to foster and financially support the children who don't have parents and need it most (all of which I do -- outside of some personal downtime, my job and my whole life is pretty much advocacy and support of children who fell through the cracks) in order to focus on my own progeny. Many people who are childless are making all kinds of contributions to the human race, as are many people who have children.

 

To me, having children is no great contribution. We have plenty of them. Raising children well is a great contribution. Non-parents can also contribute to the care and conditions of young people, though I definitely appreciate parents who raise their children well immensely. That is FAR from all parents, sadly. And most parents who are excellent tend to share the views of TBH, IME, that having children is an important choice to make on an individual level.

 

fwiw, if I ever had kids, I'd be willing to bet I'd be an excellent parent, but I see a better use of my time and energy, for myself and society, in the life I've chosen. I'm not afraid of any shortcomings, and I don't think most childless people really "see" it as shortcomings even if they wouldn't be excellent parents. Does a tractor have shortcomings if it's not a railroad train? Some people are just different than others. I really think it's essential to recognize there is no right way to live (in this issue and in general) if we're ever going to have peace, prosperity, and tolerance in the world. Accept people and things as they are.

[Meritocracy]

Coming from a guy whose parents didn't want him, if you don't want kids don't have them. You're doing everyone involved a favor. It would only be selfish if you have them while having nothing to offer as a parent.

[jlola]

Yeah, some of that was a bit over the top.

 

But in my mind it's kind of hard to get around what seems to be the truth. It kind of is a life of "me" when you choose not to have kids. Instead of working to overcome your own shortcomings as a parent, or as a human, people just take the easy way out. They claim it's better that way, but ultimately they are just denying someone else a life.

 

I see both sides, but one has more cop out in it than the other.

 

 

Selfish is NOT what I think of many people that do not have children. In fact many childless people are givers. I cannot understand why having kids makes you less selfish. In fact some parents(not all) are selfish. They do not look out for the greater good of all. But for their kids only.

 

Who wakes up early every morning to stay with neighbors child while she drives her other child to a special program for special ed kids. Childless woman me! Who left her job to help a sister who has an autistic toddler and another with aspbergers while sister suffered deep depression when she realized the reality. Childless woman me!!!, who is there to visit aunt every afternoon while she is sick. Meanwhile her kids never do because they have children and do not have time? Me! I can go on and on .

 

I cannot count on the number of people I have known throughout my life who were childless and EXPECTED to be the one to take care of sick parents. I call many childless people a blessing and "fillers" for others in life. many of us are far from selfish.we are there to help people move, support others,help out with kids or whatever when need be.

 

Just being a parent and bringing children into the world doers not make you less selfsh. I was once told by the crazy husband of my cousin hat a woman was not a woman till she had kids.

 

This is coming from a man who has 3 boys and ALL of them have had run ins with the law. But you would not know it since he acts like "father of the year"! But thank goodness a quick search on the internet reveals the truth.One unfortunately is bi-polar and at certain times very violent.

 

 

So what did bringing 3 kids into the world that will be society's problem do? Make him a man? He was not capable of raising children and neither was his wife. You cannot say everyone can straighten up. If you look into human mental illness 20-25% have it. Bi-polar,sociopaths,narcissist etc . None of these people should be having kids because no matter how hard they try, they cannot be good parents.

 

Some have family genetics and would prefer not to play Russian roulette with another life.Genetically, I can tell you my father and grandmother are off! I can tell you I have 1 sister with 2 special needs kids. So I am supposed to risk all and put kids who may potentially have physical or mental issues on this earth to be less selfish?

[veggirl]

Johan, you understand how babies are made, yes? Cabbage Patch Kids aren't real, we can't go to the garden and ask them if they'd like to be picked.

 

Ask someone who hasn't been conceived or born if they would like to live. What in the effing what?!

[Ross MwcFan]

Johan, you understand how babies are made, yes? Cabbage Patch Kids aren't real, we can't go to the garden and ask them if they'd like to be picked.

 

Ask someone who hasn't been conceived or born if they would like to live. What in the effing what?!

 

Exactly, these 'kids' or entities only exist in the imaginations of people, no harm is being done to anyone or anything if someone decides to not have kids.

[johan]

Johan, you understand how babies are made, yes? Cabbage Patch Kids aren't real, we can't go to the garden and ask them if they'd like to be picked.

 

Ask someone who hasn't been conceived or born if they would like to live. What in the effing what?!

 

Exactly, these 'kids' or entities only exist in the imaginations of people, no harm is being done to anyone or anything if someone decides to not have kids.

 

Well, I'm not claiming what I said is right. The question in the original post is "what is selfish about not having kids." And I gave an explanation. For me this is all more a mind exercise than it is a belief I have. But mind exercises are good for making you challenge what you believe.

 

This all just goes to whatever beliefs you have about the purpose we have in life. If you're at all spiritual, then you have to at least entertain the idea of the existence of God and what purpose He might want for us. But believing that what I was talking about might be true doesn't require you to believe in God or follow any particular religion.

 

Like TBF said, no one is requiring you to have kids or to want them. You might decide you "aren't much into or begrudge giving of" yourself. But that's the definition of selfish. I still don't buy into the excuse that some have given that they would be bad or unhappy parents and so it would be better for everyone if they just didn't have kids. That's just rationalizing the fact that they don't want to improve themselves and become more giving or sacrifice. It's rationalizing what are selfish choices.

 

The fact is selfish people have kids every day. People who shouldn't be parents do end up becoming parents. And I think it will be pretty much universal: ask their kids if they would rather be dead, and they will say no. Ask those kids if they love their selfish, flawed parents, and they will almost always say yes. Maybe you would like to judge from the outside that those kids should never have been born. But that is a convenient thing to do when you're on the outside.

 

And TBF's idea that we risk overpopulating the world and causing misery with resource shortages is a bit of a red herring. First of all you have to have some idea of what the total productive capability of humans on Earth really is, relative to what is being produced today. Then you have to predict the growth in productivity that will come from economies of scale and innovation. Then you have to understand how all of what is produced could be more efficiently distributed. If you claim you have a grasp on those things and can produce numbers, then I would be more open to the idea that the Earth is nearing max population.

 

Again. I'm not sure I would live by all this myself. In fact I don't think it's workable. If you choose to believe it, then there are a couple other things that go with it:

1) marriage for love is not important. Being single is wrong.

2) not only should you have kids, but you should never use contraception.

And keep in mind there is no need for a God in all this. You just have to believe that selfishness is wrong and that having kids is the most meaningful thing you can do in life. The closest thing there is to having a purpose.

[threebyfate]

Whoah, that's existentialism taken to crisis point, a la meaning of life. It assumes an altruism that isn't inherent within human beings. It also assumes that human beings are nothing but breeding machines, hence to fulfill their destiny in life, they must breed.

 

As far as children being thankful they're born, that's easily debatable considering the number of suicides and attempted suicides. Not everyone is born to middle class leave it to beaver families or is grateful for being born. And not everyone loves their parents, particularly abusive parents.

 

Quite frankly johan, that's an over-reach even for intellectual exercise.

[johan]

Is not.

 

 

 

 

.. .. ..

[threebyfate]

Are too.

 

... --- ...