Spouse's responsibility

[Danie]

Danie I'm exactly a judge actions not words person. I think if his action had ended up being that he ran off with his little ego booster and cheated his wife and kids permanently that would have been proof positive of a bad person. Not about staying with me per se. About not being a lying cheater and messing up kids lives.

 

I know he's flawed. I knew it before I just didn't realize the extent. I do now. But I think his actions since the affair count towards him becoming a good person again. And for her too and she shows no sign of any action in that direction.

 

I'm flawed too of course. We all are. But I don't think he would ever have argued I wasn't a good person, devoted wife, attentive mother, hardworking and selfless. In fact I think it's partly depression that led him to say he wasn't good enough for me, he was too selfish, and he accepted the advances of someone as selfish as he was.

 

See, I think that we all…everyone of us…do what we do for our own benefit. Sometimes what we do hurts other people because what we need for ourselves is not what they want for themselves. But for the most part these actions are not intended to cause pain but the pain is part of the outcome anyway. I’m not thinking that affairs fit neatly into this idea…because even tho there may not be malice intended it’s a no-brainer that pain is more than likely part of the equation. But, for the most part I think men enter into affairs with absolutely no intention of getting caught so they really are not intending malice to anyone. I’m sure not every situation is like this and some are definitely intent on causing pain.

 

I would highly suggest that you not accept this line of thought that he wasn’t good enough for you and that’s why he cheated (if he’s the one telling you this) because it’s a cop-out excuse and justification for his actions. I’d highly suggest that you do not accept anything less than him OWNING his actions. My husband wanted to believe that himself. He wanted me to believe it. But it’s not right. I’ve never claimed to be a saint and I do not much appreciate being placed on a pedestal because it’s an unrealistic view of who I am….I’d much rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I’m not.

[PeineDeCoeur]

I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I was not claiming that I "fell into" an affair. Clearly I did not. I made the choice to engage and I have never denied that. What I was stating was that it was not "simply" a case of a lack of faith that led to that situation. It was the culmination of thirty-odd years of hard effort, of trying all options that were available to me and that included turning down other opportunities for affairs that were presented over the years. Had it been simply a matter of "a lack of faith" I would have jumped ship at the earliest opportunity instead of sticking it out and fighting to keep the family together for our children and trying to make things work.

 

I did have options that is true and I tried them. I tried speaking to my ex-wife, many times. She refused to consider marriage counselling, since she claimed that the marriage was happy and if I had a problem then it was my problem and not a problem of the marriage. We had a trial separation, but she begged to come home and the children were terribly unhappy so I agreed on the condition that we go to marriage counselling, which she agreed to and then dropped out of. It's true that at that point I could have thrown her out for not keeping her end of the bargain but I did not want to upset the children again so soon after the disruption so I tried to address my issues with her in other ways. At that point I did feel extremely vulnerable and I did feel like I had exhausted all my options and was trapped in an unhappy situation until the children were old enough.

 

Yes I did have the option of divorce, though as I stated I did not consider that to be an option at the time because of the children's response to the separation. So yes I chose to have an affair. I thought that it would allow me to stay married a little longer if I could get some of the things I really needed somewhere else so that I was not so frustrated that I could not get them from my marriage. It was my choice. I do not deny that. But it was not "simply" a question of a lack of faith. It was a last ditch attempt on my part to keep my family together.

 

Of course that was foolish and of course in retrospect I should never have taken my ex-wife back when she begged. I should have been firm and I should have insisted on my own right to happiness instead of putting that aside and being more concerned about the children. In retrospect I understand that the separation could have been handled a lot better by my insisting on counselling and by my setting very firm boundaries and sticking to those. The children's unhappiness could have been better managed. My ex-wife's falling to pieces could have been better managed. But back then I did not have that hindsight and I took the decisions I took, believing at the time that those were the best I could make at the time.

 

The point of my post was simple. I object to claims that having an affair is some kind of easy option that one takes the minute the going gets at all tough. In my case that was certainly not true. It was the last of many strategies I had tried for dealing with an unsustainable marriage, and it certainly was not an "easy" option. The easiest option by far for me would have been to refuse to allow my ex-wife to return from the separation, to insist on enjoying my new-found happiness and to hell with anyone else or what they wanted or needed! That would have been far easier than trying to juggle an unhappy "home life" with an alternative that became increasingly attractive and increasingly viable and increasingly tempting, to the point where I had to cut off the life-support that was artificially keeping the marriage alive and bury it.

 

It may have been a "bad" choice but it was not an easy one nor one made selfishly or for want of effort.

 

Radagast, I appreciated this post a lot. I think you've articulated my xMM's situation and possibly that of a lot of men.

 

I don't judge the choices made here - just that I think there are a lot of affair seekers who rationalize seeking an A in order to keep the family unit and status quo intact. This is the "I stay for my kids" argument - and for men - who fear being cut off from children and losing family, or the financial fall-out, or being vilified by their loved ones... maybe it feels worth the risk. Unless they get caught.

 

In my xMM's case, I really wonder what will happen when the kids are out of the house, whether he will be able to continue keep the M on life support. However, not my problem...

[beenburned]

PDC,

 

If a MM is selfish enough to be a long time cake eater, for the sake of the kids, then when there is an empty nest, I look for him to continue to do what he thinks is in his best interest.

 

He doesn't care about the long term damage he has done to his wife by denying her the choice of how she wants to live her life. Her life has now been wasted by his continuous lies and fake facade.

 

I personally think long term cheaters are the lowest of the low!

[Got it]

PDC,

 

If a MM is selfish enough to be a long time cake eater, for the sake of the kids, then when there is an empty nest, I look for him to continue to do what he thinks is in his best interest.

 

He doesn't care about the long term damage he has done to his wife by denying her the choice of how she wants to live her life. Her life has now been wasted by his continuous lies and fake facade.

 

I personally think long term cheaters are the lowest of the low!

 

Okay I am going to play devil's advocate here. Has her life truly been wasted? That comment is making the assumption that her life is only defined by her marital relationship and/or status. I would assume that her life would be more complex and defined and thusly would not, in the big picture, have been wasted based on his actions solely.

 

I do agree he made life long decisions that impacted her and would have a significant impact on her life but I would be hesitant to say that her life is defined by someone else's actions.

[donnamaybe]

Okay I am going to play devil's advocate here. Has her life truly been wasted? That comment is making the assumption that her life is only defined by her marital relationship and/or status. I would assume that her life would be more complex and defined and thusly would not, in the big picture, have been wasted based on his actions solely.

 

I do agree he made life long decisions that impacted her and would have a significant impact on her life but I would be hesitant to say that her life is defined by someone else's actions.

When a spouse is lied to, sometimes for years and years, they are, in essence, being controlled. Had they the knowledge of all the goings on they might have opted for a life with someone else. That choice was robbed from them. They may want a life with someone who loves them, but that was denied through the actions of a very skillful liar and manipulater.

 

Time is our most precious commodity. When someone steals years from us that we could have spent with someone worthy, yes. Those can certainly be viewed as wasted years.

[bentnotbroken]

Okay I am going to play devil's advocate here. Has her life truly been wasted? That comment is making the assumption that her life is only defined by her marital relationship and/or status. I would assume that her life would be more complex and defined and thusly would not, in the big picture, have been wasted based on his actions solely.

 

I do agree he made life long decisions that impacted her and would have a significant impact on her life but I would be hesitant to say that her life is defined by someone else's actions.

 

 

YES, there were years of my life I feel were wasted. My decisions would have been different. I can't get any of that back. He decided my choices meant nothing...thus it was of no interest to him what may have been giving up to try to be the wife he wanted, though it was a completely unattainable goal. For me, it was a waste.

[PeineDeCoeur]

PDC,

 

If a MM is selfish enough to be a long time cake eater, for the sake of the kids, then when there is an empty nest, I look for him to continue to do what he thinks is in his best interest.

 

He doesn't care about the long term damage he has done to his wife by denying her the choice of how she wants to live her life. Her life has now been wasted by his continuous lies and fake facade.

 

I personally think long term cheaters are the lowest of the low!

 

BB, your comments are interesting - because he says he tried to leave years ago and felt guilted into staying by his children. I guess this is what I connected to in Radagast's story - MM seeing unhappy children and knowing he was the reason. And let's face it... the path of least resistance, the least change is to stay. Whether you actually DO the work to reconcile is up to the MPs.

 

I agree with your statement - I don't think he cares about the damage done to his wife by his serial cheating. But they still have enough bonds that tie them together.. clearly it's not that bad or he would leave. Either way he lives in what I consider to be a state of emotional paralysis, wanting change but unable to do anything about it. I feel sorry for his wife, because I think she really tries to engage him and wants a healthier relationship with him. They have already had a d-day (with a different OW) and she chose to stay, although doesn't trust him. She shouldn't! These are just my impressions.. maybe their marriage is great, just sexless.

 

She has some health issues but lives an unhealthy lifestyle and is obese. He is an athlete, cares very much about being healthy. To me this is fundamental. How can you reconnect the physical part of your M if you no longer find your partner attractive? I ask because of the "spousal responsibility" aspect - is it her responsibility to lose weight so he will find her more sexually attractive? Is it his fault? note - I'm not using this as justification to seek sex elsewhere..

[bentnotbroken]

BB, your comments are interesting - because he says he tried to leave years ago and felt guilted into staying by his children. I guess this is what I connected to in Radagast's story - MM seeing unhappy children and knowing he was the reason. And let's face it... the path of least resistance, the least change is to stay. Whether you actually DO the work to reconcile is up to the MPs.

 

I agree with your statement - I don't think he cares about the damage done to his wife by his serial cheating. But they still have enough bonds that tie them together.. clearly it's not that bad or he would leave. Either way he lives in what I consider to be a state of emotional paralysis, wanting change but unable to do anything about it. I feel sorry for his wife, because I think she really tries to engage him and wants a healthier relationship with him. They have already had a d-day (with a different OW) and she chose to stay, although doesn't trust him. She shouldn't! These are just my impressions.. maybe their marriage is great, just sexless.

 

She has some health issues but lives an unhealthy lifestyle and is obese. He is an athlete, cares very much about being healthy. To me this is fundamental. How can you reconnect the physical part of your M if you no longer find your partner attractive? I ask because of the "spousal responsibility" aspect - is it her responsibility to lose weight so he will find her more sexually attractive? Is it his fault? note - I'm not using this as justification to seek sex elsewhere..

 

 

My belief is that it is her responsibility to lose weight for her health, not for his pleasure. I was on the other end. He was overweight and yet, I desired him for who I believed him to be(how wrong I was. IF he was Adonis his insides were ugly as hell). Her responsibility is to live as healthy a life style as possible for her family...not for his penis to be happy(or if female) for her wooha to sizzle.

[PeineDeCoeur]

Sizzling wooha!!!

 

I just see a fundamental difference in what they value in this respect. Whether it was always this way, or something that developed over a long M, I have no idea. It seems unlikely that she will lose the weight, for her health or any other reason...

 

Someone posted that the responsibility in M is 50/50 - this I agree with. What to do when 1/2 of the equation cheats, lies and presents a fake facade that says all is well? How long can a M exist like that?

[beenburned]

PDC,

 

I really wonder what came first in their marriage, the serial cheating or her obesity?

 

Rarely is a marriage untouched by a spouses infidelity!

 

Usually there is years of emotional or verbal abuse, with the BS wondering what is causing it. Like a wounded animal, their self esteem and worth bottoms out.

Especially if they made repeated efforts to try and improve the marriage.

 

Was she like this from the beginning of the marriage? Was he an athlete when they first got married?

[freestyle]

PDC,

 

I really wonder what came first in their marriage, the serial cheating or her obesity?

 

Rarely is a marriage untouched by a spouses infidelity!

 

Usually there is years of emotional or verbal abuse, with the BS wondering what is causing it. Like a wounded animal, their self esteem and worth bottoms out.

Especially if they made repeated efforts to try and improve the marriage.

 

Was she like this from the beginning of the marriage? Was he an athlete when they first got married?

 

 

Excellent points here---Sometimes you have to go back in history to know "who swung first".

 

I dated a guy who complained about how his exwife was *always angry*.

 

At the time I was too naive to wonder WHY she was *always angry*---I just got sucked into the rescuer mode of feeling sorry for him.

 

Let's just say, after awhile, I understood where his exwife was coming from.

 

So I can see how an outside observer, new on the scene, could make presumptions about a partner in a marriage seeming to be dysfunctional---The truth is---no one will ever really know, except for the two people in that marriage.

 

It can turn into a "chicken or the egg" debate very easily---depending on who you ask.

[PeineDeCoeur]

PDC,

 

I really wonder what came first in their marriage, the serial cheating or her obesity?

 

Rarely is a marriage untouched by a spouses infidelity!

 

Usually there is years of emotional or verbal abuse, with the BS wondering what is causing it. Like a wounded animal, their self esteem and worth bottoms out.

Especially if they made repeated efforts to try and improve the marriage.

 

Was she like this from the beginning of the marriage? Was he an athlete when they first got married?

 

He was always involved in athletics. Hard to say. And I don't think I ever got the full story. They seem at odds a lot from what he told me - different parenting styles, approaches to health and values, hence lots of fighting. But they have been married for 20+ years with no end in sight, so what do I know? Something must be working...

 

On the other hand... there's the serial cheating and the fact that he actively looks for women to date... how does that affect a marriage??????

 

I believe she loves him but is really unhappy - and him being a conflict avoider probably tries to shut anything down by agreeing/pretending everything is fine/denying her suspicions. I just find it crazy to think people can live like that for years and years on end.

[beenburned]

PDC,

 

That is what I don't understand about long term serial cheaters. If they are so unhappy with the wife, why stay married at all? These kind of people need to be single.

 

Then again it sounds like he is just looking for excuses as a reason to continuously cheat.(since you said he was actively searching for OW)

 

As for her loving him, she is in love with the fake facade he is presenting to her.

If she knew he was a long time serial cheater, she probably wouldn't even want to be married to him.

 

Usually long time cheaters are habitual liars and have developed the skills of a con artist.(both to the spouse and the multiple OW)

 

It is a very sad tale of them feeling entitled to use everyone.(by their con game)

[PeineDeCoeur]

PDC,

 

That is what I don't understand about long term serial cheaters. If they are so unhappy with the wife, why stay married at all? These kind of people need to be single.

 

Then again it sounds like he is just looking for excuses as a reason to continuously cheat.(since you said he was actively searching for OW)

 

As for her loving him, she is in love with the fake facade he is presenting to her.

If she knew he was a long time serial cheater, she probably wouldn't even want to be married to him.

 

Usually long time cheaters are habitual liars and have developed the skills of a con artist.(both to the spouse and the multiple OW)

 

It is a very sad tale of them feeling entitled to use everyone.(by their con game)

 

Well, this is what I took away from Radagast's post. These MM are unhappy, they know they are unhappy, but the risk of financial losses, family losses, being the "bad guy" - is too much to bear. Forget actually working on their marriage! You can focus a lot of time working on yourself, but if you aren't communicating with your spouse, you're not going to get anywhere.

 

I wondered sometimes if my xMM wanted to get caught. Some of the risks he took makes me wonder sometimes if he didn't subconsciously want his w to know - to force an outcome, or just as a general f**k you - "I can't leave, so I'm gonna do this".

 

I don't think xMM was a con artist. There's a lot I was able to verify that turned out to be true... if anything, I think he's guilty of incredible self-deception...

[Mimolicious]

I'm just curious how many people think the betrayed spouse should take responsibility for their spouse's affair?

 

When my husband and I were having our (very short) affair, I felt like it was all his BW's fault. He told me that she wasn't communicative. He said their marriage was sexless and that she was very conservative with any type of affection. I thought to myself, how could anyone live like that?

 

I guess that was my justification for being involved with him. I blamed her totally and completely.

 

Now on to my husband cheating on me. On DDay I kept asking what I had done to cause the cheating, but it didn't make sense to me. We had sex all the time and I was affectionate and supportive in all areas of his life.

 

Then it hit me; the problem wasn't about ME or his ex-wife...the problem was with my husband. He didn't come to me and tell me that he was feeling unhappy with himself, so how could I help him fix it? He now admits that he didn't go to his ex wife with his issues, either.

 

I now realize that the affair is never the BS's fault...if the cheating partner can't come clean with their issues, then that's on them.

 

I feel badly for blaming her.

 

It's amazing how once we fOW are in the BS's shoes, things become much more clear.

 

Very simple. He could have been lying to you to get sympathy bunz.

Life is very ironic, ain't it?! Did it ever occurred to you that if he cheated with you, he can also cheat on you?

 

Your H is a cake eater. He will do the same to every single woman that allows him to conduct an A. He needs help. Good luck!

[Owl]

Well, this is what I took away from Radagast's post. These MM are unhappy, they know they are unhappy, but the risk of financial losses, family losses, being the "bad guy" - is too much to bear. Forget actually working on their marriage! You can focus a lot of time working on yourself, but if you aren't communicating with your spouse, you're not going to get anywhere.

 

I wondered sometimes if my xMM wanted to get caught. Some of the risks he took makes me wonder sometimes if he didn't subconsciously want his w to know - to force an outcome, or just as a general f**k you - "I can't leave, so I'm gonna do this".

 

I don't think xMM was a con artist. There's a lot I was able to verify that turned out to be true... if anything, I think he's guilty of incredible self-deception...

 

I think this description does indeed fit most MM involved in an affair.

 

But what you're leaving out or missing here is the "source" of the unhappiness...which is usually rooted in that very last statement in your post.

 

That source is nearly always themselves. They create their own unhappiness. Whether temporary or permanent, the majority of the time they're doing things that sabatoge their own happiness...and an affair typically is an action that's right there part of that same pattern.

 

An affair rarely ends in happiness. It's another form of sabotaging their own lives. Of avoiding taking real action to fix or address the problems.

 

And unfortunately, in those rare occasions where they DO move on to a relationship with their OW...they bring those same problems right along with them...they're not tied to their previous relationship...they're unhappy still within themselves.

 

Look at Radagast's posts...I don't see a ton of happiness there. I see a lot of focus on his past pain, and pain he's still feeling but not dealing with. Sure, there's a lot of blame on his ex-wife...very little true acceptance of being the source of his own pain...and very little evidence of happiness presented in his current circumstance. Instead he's talking about the remorse/regret/dysfunction he's STILL in.

 

When you're the source of your own unhappiness...or your own poor choice in partners...those issues travel with you, they don't remain behind in the last relationship you left.

[findingnemo]

PDC,

 

If a MM is selfish enough to be a long time cake eater, for the sake of the kids, then when there is an empty nest, I look for him to continue to do what he thinks is in his best interest.

 

He doesn't care about the long term damage he has done to his wife by denying her the choice of how she wants to live her life. Her life has now been wasted by his continuous lies and fake facade.

 

I personally think long term cheaters are the lowest of the low!

 

This is interesting to me because it brings up a very valid point. A MM who cheats continually could justify to himself staying M for the sake of his kids and not care how it hurts his W. He basically is no longer in love with the W but doesn't want to destabilize his kids. Even if he is confronted with the question of hurting his W, he feels no guilt. He argues that she must have been happy with her M life since she stayed with him all those years. He believes that leaving his family would be causing too much hurt just so that he could be happy. It's in the numbers. Hurt 2 or 3 kids by leaving or stay and cheat and hurt the W who he doesn't really care about anyway?

 

If there were issues in the M eg. a sexless M, then the MM could feel justified in doing whatever he wants because he feels he is getting even with the W. In other words, she betrayed him first. If she had cheated before, he could feel justified, etc because she had betrayed him. You get the drift...

 

I'm not saying it's right but it could happen that way.

[donnamaybe]

And then there are guys like the one I know who bragged about his perfect wife (and she was gorgeous and sweet), all the while sniffing around for any POA he could get on the side.

[Angelina527]

Very simple. He could have been lying to you to get sympathy bunz.

Life is very ironic, ain't it?! Did it ever occurred to you that if he cheated with you, he can also cheat on you?

 

Your H is a cake eater. He will do the same to every single woman that allows him to conduct an A. He needs help. Good luck!

 

 

He has gotten help, thanks. And he is a different man today because of it.

[beenburned]

nemo,

 

That is precisely why he is incredibly cruel.

 

I think after d-day a BS should closely watch the WS's actions toward repairing the damage. Words are cheap and could all be continuous lies.

 

It is critical to figure out the WS's intent behind their wanting to reconcile!

 

If they didn't care about hurting you when they were cheating, then they could easily fake everything about the reconciliation.

[Radagast]

Well, this is what I took away from Radagast's post. These MM are unhappy, they know they are unhappy, but the risk of financial losses, family losses, being the "bad guy" - is too much to bear. Forget actually working on their marriage! You can focus a lot of time working on yourself, but if you aren't communicating with your spouse, you're not going to get anywhere.

 

I hope you were not referring to me with that comment about "not working on their marriage". I tried very hard to work on my marriage but my ex-wife simply saw no need as she saw no problems within the marriage. Since I was unhappy within the marriage she said the problem must be within myself and so it was my problem to resolve and not hers. I certainly agree with your comment that however hard you work on yourself, if you aren't communicating with your spouse you will not get anywhere. That chimes perfectly with my experience.

[Radagast]

Look at Radagast's posts...I don't see a ton of happiness there. I see a lot of focus on his past pain, and pain he's still feeling but not dealing with. Sure, there's a lot of blame on his ex-wife...very little true acceptance of being the source of his own pain...and very little evidence of happiness presented in his current circumstance. Instead he's talking about the remorse/regret/dysfunction he's STILL in.

 

Interesting view, but not one I or my counsellor agree with.

[PeineDeCoeur]

I hope you were not referring to me with that comment about "not working on their marriage". I tried very hard to work on my marriage but my ex-wife simply saw no need as she saw no problems within the marriage. Since I was unhappy within the marriage she said the problem must be within myself and so it was my problem to resolve and not hers. I certainly agree with your comment that however hard you work on yourself, if you aren't communicating with your spouse you will not get anywhere. That chimes perfectly with my experience.

 

Hi Radagast,

 

No - that comment was strictly about my xMM. From what he told me, his w was working hard to get him to talk about their M. And he talked a lot about working on himself, trying to fix his issues within himself - but not about working on the M, or anything to do with her. I don't think he communicates with her too deeply about his unhappiness. He talked a lot about leaving her as his kids are starting to leave the home, but I know that it's scary financially, and also a deep concern that his kids won't want anything to do with him if he does leave.

 

Anyway, he never promised me anything, and we are now NC. But I still wonder that he has been able to maintain his M for so long like this...

[beenburned]

PDC,

 

Your MM was a long time serial cheater with many deepseated issues that have nothing to do with his BS!

 

Only a small percentage of cheaters fall into this catagory. You need to search and read the many articles about serial cheaters to truly understand the depth of their issues.

[findingnemo]

nemo,

 

That is precisely why he is incredibly cruel.

 

I think after d-day a BS should closely watch the WS's actions toward repairing the damage. Words are cheap and could all be continuous lies.

 

It is critical to figure out the WS's intent behind their wanting to reconcile!

 

If they didn't care about hurting you when they were cheating, then they could easily fake everything about the reconciliation.

 

I think this happens a lot here. A MM is caught cheating but doesn't want to lose his life as he knows it. He then convinces the BW that he loves her and the kids and their life and will not leave her. What happens when he has another A? Same thing. The BW doesn't leave because she too doesn't want to lose "everything" and start afresh. If she is sure that the WH actually has feelings for her, then it's easier for her to stay.

 

So the problem is within the MM. He is selfish because he wants the M and the perks that come with it but also wants to continue getting some on the side. The few women I know who have got a D as a result of cheating told me that it wasn't the cheating per se. It was the attitude the WHs had. They acted like all they had to do was say "Sorry I messed up but I'd never leave you" and expected that to be enough. The Ws felt the WHs were sorry to have been so stupid as to get caught.

 

Regarding the spouse's responsibility... If a BS decides to stay M with a MP who continually cheats, then I think the spouse will bear some responsibility for the behaviour. I've never thought of it that way but it never occurred to me to leave my M because my H cheated. So in a sense, I was allowing him to cheat as long as I didn't find out, wasn't I?