Feminists are ruining men.

[verhrzn]

I'm not sure why you feel the bolded is true. If you offer to pay and are repeatedly turned down, there is no obligation either way - you're just doing the right and polite thing by not turning it into a big unpleasant scene. In fact, I think the entire obligation idea is laughable at best - I certainly don't feel obligated to make out with a guy just because he bought me dinner. Then again, I always offer and don't expect a date to do so, and I also don't think very highly of women who expect it and make a big deal out of it if the guy doesn't pay, either.

 

I definitely think that everyone has supreme responsibility and ownership of their own actions, but there is such a thing as discouraging them. If I help someone out with something and they get all up in arms about a nice gesture, I will definitely not help them out again. Human nature. So we should encourage nice actions and discourage the bad.

 

IMO, if you're taking it to the extent of arguing in front of the waiter, it's a very unattractive thing to do, and is likely to turn a potential date away. Despite there being equality, there are still differences between the genders. Many men (not all), enjoy a woman who lets them treat her like a lady if he wants to, instead of arguing with him over it.

 

But I don't want to be a "lady." I am not in any way a lady. I want to pay for my own dinner, darn it, and I want it to not be an issue that is somehow tied to my gender.

 

I really fail to see why that is unattractive, or how him paying for my dinner makes me a "lady."

[Els]

They believe it does. Can you not indulge that belief when they insist upon it, instead of turning a nice gesture into an argument? It just isn't the courteous thing to do.

[FrustratedStandards]

I got called a gentleman by my last gf. This was after we had spent a few hours making out in a public place. I asked her why she thought I was a gentleman, and apparently it was because I kept my hands in respectable places and didn't try dry-humping her.

 

Who knew being a gentleman was so easy?

 

Exactly. So why is it becoming so rare?

 

When was the last time, you opened a car door for your BF?

 

Women wanted to be educated, have careers and equal pay.

 

So if a girl is just as educated as me, has a career like me and earns just as much as I do then why should I pay for stuff? Shouldn't things be 50/50?

 

Women want equality when it benefits them and inequality when it benefits them.

 

It has nothing to do with being able to afford it. A man is sexy when he pays and shows he can take care of a women and take her out.

 

My guess is that you're single.

[verhrzn]

They believe it does. Can you not indulge that belief when they insist upon it, instead of turning a nice gesture into an argument? It just isn't the courteous thing to do.

 

Well why can't the same thing be said of them? Why can't they just accept me paying for my own dinner? Why insist that they pay for it? Why is it me who turns the gesture into an argument?

 

I don't like the implications in the nice gesture. I like being treated as a person, not a "lady." I don't like the social imbalance of they've now done a nice gesture for me, and I have not done anything for them. I especially don't like the idea that I'll let them pay for me, and the next day they'll be on some forum, ranting about how this fat ugly b*tch made them pay for the dinner, and how it signifies that all women are evil gold diggers with unrealistic expectations.

[FrustratedStandards]

They believe it does. Can you not indulge that belief when they insist upon it, instead of turning a nice gesture into an argument? It just isn't the courteous thing to do.

 

You are very smart.

[FrustratedStandards]

Well why can't the same thing be said of them? Why can't they just accept me paying for my own dinner? Why insist that they pay for it? Why is it me who turns the gesture into an argument?

 

I don't like the implications in the nice gesture. I like being treated as a person, not a "lady." I don't like the social imbalance of they've now done a nice gesture for me, and I have not done anything for them. I especially don't like the idea that I'll let them pay for me, and the next day they'll be on some forum, ranting about how this fat ugly b*tch made them pay for the dinner, and how it signifies that all women are evil gold diggers with unrealistic expectations.

 

Well I like being treated like a lady, because I am one. I don't want a man to treat me like he does every single other person. There's nothing sexy or attractive in that.

 

I don't know about you, but feeling like a lady is very nice, and it makes the man that much more attractive.

[verhrzn]

Well I like being treated like a lady, because I am one. I don't want a man to treat me like he does every single other person. There's nothing sexy or attractive in that.

 

I don't know about you, but feeling like a lady is very nice, and it makes the man that much more attractive.

 

Um... how neat for you. Go date some nerd boys then, they're more than happy to put a woman on a pedestal. Just a warning-it's a long fall off.

[oaks]

Exactly. So why is it becoming so rare?

 

I expect there's some truth in the points you made in your OP: the negative reactions of some women (i'm not sure if "feminist" is the right word) towards acts of kindness, chivalry and gentlemanliness have probably put some guys off the idea of trying.

 

Anyway, come over to the UK and we'll find you a gentleman. There's still one or two of us left.

[Desinova]

A man is sexy when he pays.

 

Please tell me I am not the only one who finds this amusing.

 

My guess is that you're single.

 

Recently I had to end it with my GF, but what is your excuse?

[irin]

Heartless Bitches International

 

I AM A FEMINIST AND DONT GIVE A ****!

 

now good luck with finding a man to complete you, hold the door for you, pay for your meals and to make you feel like a Woman!

[oaks]

Please tell me I am not the only one who finds this amusing.

 

I was going to ignore it as I couldn't think of any way to address it constructively but, yes, perhaps it was humour.

[threebyfate]

What's expressed on LS floors me sometimes. Beyond a few rude guys over the years, most guys open doors, carry and move heavy objects without protest or angst. Hell, most volunteer to help.

 

Maybe it's the age of the men I dated where they were in their thirties and early forties but young men still hold doors open, as women do too. It's really rude to allow doors to close in people's faces. I personally feel it's rude not to help little old ladies if they're trying to reach or carry something, which I offer to help when I'm capable of doing so.

 

I swear that LS is just used for venting by guys who resent doing these things but in real life, they do them anyways.

 

It's not Feminism that's killing courtesy, it's rude boys.

[FrustratedStandards]

Fine. A man isn't sexy when he pays. He's so much sexier when he doesn't or can't afford it.

 

Better?

[Els]

Well why can't the same thing be said of them? Why can't they just accept me paying for my own dinner? Why insist that they pay for it? Why is it me who turns the gesture into an argument?

 

I don't like the implications in the nice gesture. I like being treated as a person, not a "lady." I don't like the social imbalance of they've now done a nice gesture for me, and I have not done anything for them. I especially don't like the idea that I'll let them pay for me, and the next day they'll be on some forum, ranting about how this fat ugly b*tch made them pay for the dinner, and how it signifies that all women are evil gold diggers with unrealistic expectations.

 

I'm still a little confused, V. Wasn't it you who kept complaining that the men you know don't view you as a woman? But here you say they do, and you say you don't want them to. You even got into an argument with them because they tried treating you as a lady. The latter part of your paragraph also boggles me. You do know that probably 99.5% of men don't even post on relationship forums, right? Some of the male posters here are nowhere near representative of the male gender, and frankly it's insulting to other men to make assumptions about them based on those posters.

 

So, if you constantly react negatively to the men you know treating you like a lady, why are you unhappy that they don't view you as a woman?

 

If you are really concerned about the obligations bit, thank them and reciprocate the gesture in the future. Pay for drinks, or bake them cookies, or help them out with stuff, or get them a little gift.

 

I expect there's some truth in the points you made in your OP: the negative reactions of some women (i'm not sure if "feminist" is the right word) towards acts of kindness, chivalry and gentlemanliness have probably put some guys off the idea of trying.

 

Anyway, come over to the UK and we'll find you a gentleman. There's still one or two of us left.

 

Yeah, it's quite sad. I'd be extremely put off if I went to the trouble of cooking a dinner for a guy, and instead of being appreciative he goes on a diatribe about how it's insulting to his pride that I would make him a free dinner.

[Anela]

Fine. A man isn't sexy when he pays. He's so much sexier when he doesn't or can't afford it.

 

Better?

 

I think they were laughing at the fact that it could be taken another way.

[RedRobin]

Men do more than enough ruining each other and themselves.

 

I'm thrilled to live in an age where women aren't forced to live in that fall out and can choose to partner, or not, with men they deem worthy.

 

As for who pays for dinner... I really couldn't care less. I always offer because I think it is fair. Men don't 'owe' me dinner and I don't 'owe' him sex. I'd prefer a pleasant demeanor and being given the benefit of the doubt more than picking up the check anyday.

 

My grandma taught me you offer (nicely) twice. If they insist twice, you graciously accept. I'm no 'lady', but I was taught good manners.

 

Now, if they start getting pissy about my power tools and insist I'm weak and can't possibly build that (fill-in-the-blank)... now thems is fightin' words!

[Els]

My grandma taught me you offer (nicely) twice. If they insist twice, you graciously accept. I'm no 'lady', but I was taught good manners.

 

Yup, sounds about the same as what I do (or used to). Currently the bf and I have been together for several years though, so it'd get very tiresome to offer twice all the time, so I don't do that anymore.

[Anela]

What's expressed on LS floors me sometimes. Beyond a few rude guys over the years, most guys open doors, carry and move heavy objects without protest or angst. Hell, most volunteer to help.

 

Maybe it's the age of the men I dated where they were in their thirties and early forties but young men still hold doors open, as women do too. It's really rude to allow doors to close in people's faces. I personally feel it's rude not to help little old ladies if they're trying to reach or carry something, which I offer to help when I'm capable of doing so.

 

I swear that LS is just used for venting by guys who resent doing these things but in real life, they do them anyways.

 

It's not Feminism that's killing courtesy, it's rude boys.

 

Agreed.

 

I hold doors open for people - I'e held them open for men, women, and children. Walking out of a clothing store just before one Christmas, I held one for a woman struggling with shopping and a large pushchair. My Dad was once angry when another woman let a door fall back on me - he reached out and grabbed it just before it hit me.

 

I always smile and say "thank you very much" when someone holds a door for me. I was impressed when a little girl did so recently. Another young guy, walking past with his wife, stopped, turned around and handed me something that I'd accidentally dropped. More often than not, I'm struck by how kind most people are.

[ariadne999]

Take it from someone who's been called a gentleman by many people:

 

Manners don't get the girl

 

here, let me fix that for you.

 

 

Manners won't get you the super hot high maintence drama queen that all men desire to have dangling off their arm as a trophy. You are correct.

 

Manners will get you a nice, normal, average girl but men aren't interested in that.

 

 

 

For every virgin on this board crying about how women are so mean, I bet there are ten girls who'd LOVE to date them. And they won't give those women the time of day becasue they are not hot enough to show off to their friends.

[neowulf]

That's stupid.

Being a gentleman and having manners doesn't have anything to do with equal.

 

Ummm.. you mean getting special treatment purely based on your gender?

 

Is this kinda like expecting a women to cook me dinner, wash my clothes and keep the house tidy?

 

Equal means women aren't considered "special" any longer. It was the trade off for equality.

 

I don't expect a women to take care of me. I don't expect her to do my washing, or the house work, or even raise my children.

 

I don't expect anything from her, other than love and companionship. I appreciate when a women chips in and does her part, but I don't care if that's mowing the lawn, fixing the car or being the primary income earner.

 

Women wanted equality. They got it.

 

As for being a "gentlemen", I just do those things regardless of gender. Kindness and acts of service aren't restricted by gender.

Edited April 3, 2012 by neowulf

[ThaWholigan]

here, let me fix that for you.

 

 

Manners won't get you the super hot high maintence drama queen that all men desire to have dangling off their arm as a trophy. You are correct.

 

Manners will get you a nice, normal, average girl but men aren't interested in that.

 

 

 

For every virgin on this board crying about how women are so mean, I bet there are ten girls who'd LOVE to date them. And they won't give those women the time of day becasue they are not hot enough to show off to their friends.

I never said women were mean, first of all .

 

Secondly, as FS put it, manners alone won't even get you an unattractive partner. Manners must come with a package attractive enough for someone who you are attracted to.

 

Besides, super hot or nice normal average is entirely subjective according to the individual, so the point is: Why would I date someone I'm not attracted to? To please you? . You won't see me here complaining about who doesn't want to date me. As far as I'm concerned, their loss. I'm awesome

[threebyfate]

Agreed.

 

I hold doors open for people - I'e held them open for men, women, and children. Walking out of a clothing store just before one Christmas, I held one for a woman struggling with shopping and a large pushchair. My Dad was once angry when another woman let a door fall back on me - he reached out and grabbed it just before it hit me.

 

I always smile and say "thank you very much" when someone holds a door for me. I was impressed when a little girl did so recently. Another young guy, walking past with his wife, stopped, turned around and handed me something that I'd accidentally dropped. More often than not, I'm struck by how kind most people are.

Pretty much. The kindness of strangers, et al.

 

I was parking in a pay lot a long time ago where you had to get out of your car to buy a ticket from a machine. Before I had even parked, some guy came up to my window and offered me his ticket since it still had over an hour left on it. What an absolute sweetheart! I thanked him profusely where he just said "pass it on" so since that time, if I have over 1/2 hour left, I pass on my ticket of which people are also grateful in return.

 

That it's happened more than once since that time, makes me feel warm inside that passing on courtesy freely, somehow comes back freely.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I personally feel it's rude not to help little old ladies if they're trying to reach or carry something

 

Oh, come on. You really think the fact that these little old ladies have vaginas should entitle them to special treatment?

[ThaWholigan]

Also, let me make another point here:

 

Gentlemen don't make a habit of doing things solely for women. They do things for EVERYONE. Because it is in their nature to be kind, it's not even a conscious action, it's a mandatory gesture that isn't given an afterthought.

[irin]

btw feminism has nothing to do with manners. am girl and i hold the door for people men, women, children, especially old people, complete strangers, its perfectly normal where i live people coming in and out of shops do that.

 

now lets not say that there isnt a number of women who are man haters and tend to use feminism to express it, they just have personal issue with men as individuals, whether its daddy issues or they were abused by men in some way or the other. its nothing to do with feminism it self!