Feminists are ruining men.

[soserious1]

You mean they actually ASK now?!

 

That's gross. If a man didn't immediately say "one cheque is fine" then I would dismiss him as a potential male partner and wouldn't take him seriously.

 

Where I come from, if you let a women pay, you are basically handing her your balls.

 

Really? around here all you're "handing her" is the check for the meal she ordered & ate.

[Els]

I wonder what a man would say if he doesn't want to pay, but the woman doesn't interrupt.

 

Would he feel uncomfortable saying "two cheques please"? If so, that just proves my point that a man needs to pay, and if he doesn't, it's rude. Lots of men would always say "one cheque please" but write off the woman immediately, which is stupid.

 

Other times, the woman will interrupt, and they will be okay with it because "Hey, she offered! I'm not being any less of a man by letting her!"

 

Umm... yes you are. In my eyes, yes you are.

 

Well, platonic friends have sometimes just looked at me when the cashier asks, and I immediately say 'separate'. Dates/bfs have almost always said firmly 'one', despite me having offered previously.

 

Also, hey, you're entitled to your own preferences, but they don't necessarily apply to everyone. Move back to Italy or something? I'm fine with a guy wanting to go dutch, since I am not the sort of woman to throw loads of hard-earned cash into beauty and maintenance, like many other women do. It's nice if he insists, but really not a huge deal to me. Equally so, if he writes me off for not having my nails done or whatever, he's not the sort of guy I'm interested in.

[FrustratedStandards]

Well, platonic friends have sometimes just looked at me when the cashier asks, and I immediately say 'separate'. Dates/bfs have almost always said firmly 'one', despite me having offered previously.

 

Also, hey, you're entitled to your own preferences, but they don't necessarily apply to everyone. Move back to Italy or something? I'm fine with a guy wanting to go dutch, since I am not the sort of woman to throw loads of hard-earned cash into beauty and maintenance, like many other women do. It's nice if he insists...

 

That's probably why you pay half the time.

 

(joke)

[dasein]

No, your statement is false. With almost no exceptions, most women I know spend far more money on maintenance than men do. The good-looking women do all of the above, plus waxing/EPL ($80 per leg for EPL, $50 for bikini waxes), eyebrow trimming and shaping ($40), nails ($30 - $50) and makeup ($200 for a mid-range full set), and lingerie ($50 apiece).

 

News for you, men don't care generally whether you shave your legs and coochie, do your nails, trim your eyebrows yourself or pay high dollar to get it done. It's telling that all those things you mention other than nails were unheard of or considered extravagant just 30 years ago. Those luxuries are much more "doing it for myself" things than "attract a man" things, and so don't factor into the equation of spending for men's sake. Same with expensive shoes, bags, accessories, and overspending on hair.

[oaks]

No, your statement is false. With almost no exceptions, most women I know spend far more money on maintenance than men do. The good-looking women do all of the above, plus waxing/EPL ($80 per leg for EPL, $50 for bikini waxes), eyebrow trimming and shaping ($40), nails ($30 - $50) and makeup ($200 for a mid-range full set), and lingerie ($50 apiece).

 

I hate to undermine your general point (because I agree with you) but don't bring the price of the lingerie and bikini wax in to this unless we can go back to the "I pay for dinner so I get to undress you" argument. I'll also have you know that my nostril hair trimmer cost me nearly $5.

[Feelsgoodman]

Because they're all back in Italy! And I live in Toronto! That's why! I'm stuck with this Canadian mindset. There are men like this among them, but very, very few.

I kind of see where you're coming from. I live in Toronto too and like you, I wasn't born here. Where I come from, men always pay for women. But in that context, it makes total sense, because women are completely subordinate to men. Man's superiority is accepted on a cultural level and women are basically treated as adult children.

 

But Canada is obviously a very different place. As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. You can't expect the "Canadian mindset" to change in order to become compatible with yours. You are the one who is going to have to adapt...or move back to italy.

[Els]

I hate to undermine your general point (because I agree with you) but don't bring the price of the lingerie and bikini wax in to this unless we can go back to the "I pay for dinner so I get to undress you" argument. I'll also have you know that my nostril hair trimmer cost me nearly $5.

 

:laugh: True, dat. But those are bound to come out sooner or later, no?

 

Also, my razor costs $15, take that!

[Feelsgoodman]

:laugh: True, dat. But those are bound to come out sooner or later, no?

 

Also, my razor costs $15, take that!

My car cost me $60,000. If I take the position that I bought it to impress chicks, does it mean that the women I date have to buy me 60K worth of meals as "compensation"?

[Els]

News for you, men don't care generally whether you shave your legs and coochie, do your nails, trim your eyebrows yourself or pay high dollar to get it done. It's telling that all those things you mention other than nails were unheard of or considered extravagant just 30 years ago. Those luxuries are much more "doing it for myself" things than "attract a man" things, and so don't factor into the equation of spending for men's sake. Same with expensive shoes, bags, accessories, and overspending on hair.

 

Errr, no. Eyebrow trimming and leg shaving generally were not EXPECTED of a woman in the 50s, even. All of the above -can- be done yourself, but generally do not produce the best results and are often uncomfortable and take huge amounts of time, especially in training to do it right. Really, have you ever tried shaving your pubes?

 

It's telling that you would immediately go that route, rather than saying that men don't care whether or not it's done, period. Which brings us to the point: You EXPECT a woman to do it, even though all of those things are above and beyond general appearance maintenance that both men and women do. Does that not negate your original point that the ONLY things both men and women need are good clothes, haircut, perfume, and toiletries?

[Els]

My car cost me $60,000. If I take the position that I bought it to impress chicks, does it mean that the women I date have to buy me 60K worth of meals as "compensation"?

 

Did you miss the part where I said that doing all that wasn't a reason to expect anything?

[Feelsgoodman]

Did you miss the part where I said that doing all that wasn't a reason to expect anything?

Did you miss the part? I was being facetious.

[FrustratedStandards]

News for you, men don't care generally whether you shave your legs and coochie, do your nails, trim your eyebrows yourself or pay high dollar to get it done. It's telling that all those things you mention other than nails were unheard of or considered extravagant just 30 years ago. Those luxuries are much more "doing it for myself" things than "attract a man" things, and so don't factor into the equation of spending for men's sake. Same with expensive shoes, bags, accessories, and overspending on hair.

 

I don't believe you.

 

If a woman walks in wearing a nice dress, hairless smooth legs, pretty and clean nails, nice pedicure and clean feet, plus shapely eyebrows and soft sily hair...

 

you WILL notice her more than her twin with

 

nice dress, bumpy legs with hair stubs, bitten down and cracked nails, excess skin on the feet and brittle toenails, messy eyebrows and bed hair.

 

So don't tell me it doesn't matter. It does. And you know it.

 

I kind of see where you're coming from. I live in Toronto too and like you, I wasn't born here. Where I come from, men always pay for women. But in that context, it makes total sense, because women are completely subordinate to men. Man's superiority is accepted on a cultural level and women are basically treated as adult children.

 

But Canada is obviously a very different place. As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. You can't expect the "Canadian mindset" to change in order to become compatible with yours. You are the one who is going to have to adapt...or move back to italy.

 

I refuse. I know there are men out there that think like I do, I just need to find one that hasn't been "Canadianized".

 

Out of curiosity Feelsgoodman, where are you from?

[Els]

I don't believe you.

 

If a woman walks in wearing a nice dress, hairless smooth legs, pretty and clean nails, nice pedicure and clean feet, plus shapely eyebrows and soft sily hair...

 

you WILL notice her more than her twin with

 

nice dress, bumpy legs with hair stubs, bitten down and cracked nails, excess skin on the feet and brittle toenails, messy eyebrows and bed hair.

 

So don't tell me it doesn't matter. It does. And you know it.

 

I think it means that he expects it, just that he doesn't care whether the woman pays to get it done properly once a month or spends 10 minutes a day shaving her privates and getting incredible razor burn and itch in the process. It's her problem HOW she gets it done, he just gets to expect it from her because she's a woman and he's a man.

 

FWIW, I don't think all men are like him. The bf happens to like my thick eyebrows.

[oaks]

:laugh: True, dat. But those are bound to come out sooner or later, no?

 

Now we're talking!

[dasein]

Really, have you ever tried shaving your pubes?

 

Yeah, I do it all the time with a $10 shaver, takes 5 minutes. The preoccupation with "perfect" hairless appearance is not a male one, we don't look at you all 200 times a day in the mirror after all.

 

It's telling that you would immediately go that route, rather than saying that men don't care whether or not it's done, period. Which brings us to the point: You EXPECT a woman to do it, even though all of those things are above and beyond general appearance maintenance that both men and women do. Does that not negate your original point that the ONLY things both men and women need are good clothes, haircut, perfume, and toiletries?

 

What I -expect- a woman to do is look appealing, not spend hundreds or thousands a month in some illusory, extravagant quest for physical "just so" perfection. The point was that women in the very recent past did just fine with much less disposable income allocated to luxuries, groomed themselves adequately, and had no problems at all attracting men. No idea where you got most of the contorted extrapolation above from what I posted.

[Els]

Now we're talking!

 

So, trimmed, bare, or natural?

[FrustratedStandards]

FWIW, I don't think all men are like him. The bf happens to like my thick eyebrows.

 

Thick eyebrows doesn't mean unplucked and shapeless. Thick eyebrows still need to be maintained.

[Feelsgoodman]

I refuse. I know there are men out there that think like I do, I just need to find one that hasn't been "Canadianized".

I'm willing to bet that you are also "Canadianized" in many respects. You mentioned that you have a good job. Woud you be willing to give it up to be a housewife? And I don't mean a housewife in a multi-millionaire's household where you have servants to do everything. I mean a housewife in a middle class household where you're going to be doing cooking, cleaning and all the other fun stuff yourself yourself (on top of looking after your multiple kids, of course). Maybe I'm wrong, but you don't strike me as a person who's pining for that sort lifestyle.

 

Out of curiosity Feelsgoodman, where are you from?

Eastern Europe.

[FrustratedStandards]

Yeah, I do it all the time with a $10 shaver, takes 5 minutes. The preoccupation with "perfect" hairless appearance is not a male one, we don't look at you all 200 times a day in the mirror after all.

 

 

 

What I -expect- a woman to do is look appealing, not spend hundreds or thousands a month in some illusory, extravagant quest for physical "just so" perfection. The point was that women in the very recent past did just fine with much less disposable income allocated to luxuries, groomed themselves adequately, and had no problems at all attracting men. No idea where you got most of the contorted extrapolation above from what I posted.

 

First of all, male skin is much tougher than female skin. You are less likely to get the same reaction women do.

 

Second, appealing largely maintaining herself well.

[Els]

What I -expect- a woman to do is look appealing, not spend hundreds or thousands a month in some illusory, extravagant quest for physical "just so" perfection. The point was that women in the very recent past did just fine with much less disposable income allocated to luxuries, groomed themselves adequately, and had no problems at all attracting men. No idea where you got most of the contorted extrapolation above from what I posted.

 

No, the average working-class women in the past did not actually shave their privates - the obsession with hairless pubes is an extremely recent one, and likely propagated by porn (which I have no problem with, btw). Nor were their nails manicured - nail polish wasn't even commercially available until recently. Sexy lingerie? Hah. They were adequately groomed - for their time. And yes, the fact that they had no problems attracting men is telling of how commercialized beauty has become. Though fortunately there are men who still subscribe to the ideals of natural being beautiful.

[TheBigQuestion]

I don't believe you.

 

If a woman walks in wearing a nice dress, hairless smooth legs, pretty and clean nails, nice pedicure and clean feet, plus shapely eyebrows and soft sily hair...

 

you WILL notice her more than her twin with

 

nice dress, bumpy legs with hair stubs, bitten down and cracked nails, excess skin on the feet and brittle toenails, messy eyebrows and bed hair.

 

So don't tell me it doesn't matter. It does. And you know it.

 

 

I don't deny that it may matter to some extent. I just fail to see why a lot of posters always bring up how much it supposedly costs to buy all these products/get all these procedures done. Most of the time, it has way more to do with her own personal comfort than what actually attracts guys. No straight man out there cares about your shoes, your manicure, your pedicure, whether you shape your eyebrows yourself or get them professionally done (I watch my girlfriend pluck her eyebrows all the time and it's an extremely easy, if slightly painful, thing to do), what store you bought your dress and purse from, if your legs are shaved or if you get the hair professionally zapped off. Women who choose the more expensive options are flat out deluding themselves if they think it makes a lick of difference to the men they date.

[FrustratedStandards]

Eastern Europe.

 

I figured as much. Let me guess...Russian? Serbian?

[soserious1]

Thick eyebrows doesn't mean unplucked and shapeless. Thick eyebrows still need to be maintained.

 

Something a professionally employed woman will be doing anyway as part of being neatly groomed for work.

[FrustratedStandards]

I don't deny that it may matter to some extent. I just fail to see why a lot of posters always bring up how much it supposedly costs to buy all these products/get all these procedures done. Most of the time, it has way more to do with her own personal comfort than what actually attracts guys. No straight man out there cares about your shoes, your manicure, your pedicure, whether you shape your eyebrows yourself or get them professionally done (I watch my girlfriend pluck her eyebrows all the time and it's an extremely easy, if slightly painful, thing to do), what store you bought your dress and purse from, if your legs are shaved or if you get the hair professionally zapped off. Women who choose the more expensive options are flat out deluding themselves if they think it makes a lick of difference to the men they date.

 

Not true.

 

The material things INDIVIDUALLY don't matter, no. But in order for her to look NICE, the shoes need to match the dress, the dress needs to be good quality so it lasts, the bra needs to be the same color...

 

It seems unimportant, but all the little things count.

 

I also would like to add that waxing and other procedures that women do (very often cellulite procedures) are very painful. And they do it so that men will look at you.

[oaks]

So, trimmed, bare, or natural?

 

Either of the first two. Surprise me.