The story of a fool

[tojaz]

I am sure I forgave her. I just cannot understand how she continue repeating my wrongs without keeping in mind what she had been forgiven. At last she admitted that she had made many mistakes. But who carres.

 

Regarding her strong familiy. She's comletely wrong. Her father and mother are living in separate rooms. In her childhood my my wife tried commiting suicude becuse of her father insulting behaviour.

 

In our conversation after visiting the lawyer she said that I was very fast in cashing my good behaviour. And I reminded her about her requests not to sleep in her flat, not to go so often etc. And the divorce is the logical outcome. She is rediculous in her conclusions, in her vews.

Remember we already talked about perception. You cannot expect her to share yours and you will not agree with hers

 

Her decisions were made long before you knew there was a problem, so your basicly spinning your wheels trying to talk her out of things shes been thinking about a lot longer then you realize.

 

Trust me Nuke, there is no logic here, if you are trying to solve all this with logic, then you've already lost.

 

 

I am wandering whether I am the narcissist or she is. Or both.

 

What makes you say that?

 

TOJAZ

[Nukem]

What makes you say that?

TOJAZ

 

I was looking after me. Wasn't paying enough attention to them. Was obsessed by my activities sport, internet, yoga, movies. Didn't provide her mature love. I thought as I gave her a lot of freedom she also have to leave me doing my things. She claimed that she had to look after two child instead of one. In her eyes I am irresponsible, always doing what I had decided. According to her words I am impossible for communication cause every time I got angry and tried to escape the problems.

 

In my opinion and other people confirm she is difficult for commnication.

Often she interprete the jokes wrongly. She percieve them as insult or scoff. At the sametime she like scoffing at people.

 

Months ago I joked that if she was a fish she would bite even a walking stick. It insulted her.

And yesterday she reminded me that she is not so naive and she doesn't trust anyone.

[Nukem]

hey, what do you think about contacting the OM wife?

May be sharing some thoughts, opinions... about spouses, life...

Edited April 19, 2012 by Nukem

[tojaz]

I was looking after me. Wasn't paying enough attention to them. Was obsessed by my activities sport, internet, yoga, movies. Didn't provide her mature love. I thought as I gave her a lot of freedom she also have to leave me doing my things. She claimed that she had to look after two child instead of one. In her eyes I am irresponsible, always doing what I had decided. According to her words I am impossible for communication cause every time I got angry and tried to escape the problems.

 

In my opinion and other people confirm she is difficult for commnication.

Often she interprete the jokes wrongly. She percieve them as insult or scoff. At the sametime she like scoffing at people.

 

Months ago I joked that if she was a fish she would bite even a walking stick. It insulted her.

And yesterday she reminded me that she is not so naive and she doesn't trust anyone.

 

There is a difference between having your own interests and individuality and being a narcissist. Everyone looks out for themselves from time to time and we all have our own dreams and even obsessions.

 

A true narcissist doesn't believe that though, they only believe that the people around them should follow their lead, so unless you were insisting that she do yoga or follow you along with all of your interests, then yeah thats a narcissistic tendency, but I don't think thats the case.

 

I'm reading here that your wife requires a lot of maintainence, she wants her freedom to persue her own interests and expects you to support her along the way, yet she does not offer the same courtesy and freedom to you. There is no individuality, theres her and how others relate to her and she seems to see everything in that context. (RESIST THE URGE TO SHARE ANY OF THAT WITH HER, SHES NOT GOING TO HEAR IT)

 

In listening to your tale and conversing with you here, I think you both have a hard time communicating. She takes everything to heart and you seem to gravitate towards quick resolutions, those are polar opposites on the communication scale and neither of you have been able to find a middle ground where communication works.

 

It also sounds like she is a very guarded person, her defenses are always up waiting for the next "attack" so she puts a very strong personality out there as a way to avoid having to be vulnerable.

 

Obviously I am just going off of instinct based on what you have told me. Do you think there is any truth there?

 

hey, what do you think about contacting the OM wife?

May be sharing some thoughts, opinions... about spouses, life...

 

I think your wife would perceive that as manipulative and would do more damage then good.

 

TOJAZ

[Nukem]

I'm reading here that your wife requires a lot of maintainence, she wants her freedom to persue her own interests and expects you to support her along the way, yet she does not offer the same courtesy and freedom to you. There is no individuality, theres her and how others relate to her and she seems to see everything in that context. (RESIST THE URGE TO SHARE ANY OF THAT WITH HER, SHES NOT GOING TO HEAR IT)

 

In listening to your tale and conversing with you here, I think you both have a hard time communicating. She takes everything to heart and you seem to gravitate towards quick resolutions, those are polar opposites on the communication scale and neither of you have been able to find a middle ground where communication works.

 

It also sounds like she is a very guarded person, her defenses are always up waiting for the next "attack" so she puts a very strong personality out there as a way to avoid having to be vulnerable.

 

Obviously I am just going off of instinct based on what you have told me. Do you think there is any truth there?

 

 

 

I think your wife would perceive that as manipulative and would do more damage then good.

 

TOJAZ

 

You are right about her. And you help me to clear the thins for myself.

 

Yesterday I met friends of ours who I mentioned before. The wife of my colleague was at a concert with my wife few months ago. She

told her that I had been beating her.

So I should confess that there were such quarells while I was trying to get out of the flat she pulled me back. In my efforts to avoid her and escape in order to calm down outside I pushed her with my hands pretty strong mading my way out. She never allowed me to get out, she was afraid staying alone I guess. In those situations I couldn't control myself and was acting like an agressive and egoistic person.

I explain my rude behaviour with her provocation. My friends know me as a very calm and non-conflict person. They cannot believe her that I was beating her.

 

She told about these quarells to her mother and other friends.

I feel very guilty about this.

[Nukem]

At the same time she told me about the OM.

She had similar situations with him and he told her ''Don't hit me because I also will hit you''. Apparently she provokes such aggressiveness.

[tojaz]

You are right about her. And you help me to clear the thins for myself.

 

Yesterday I met friends of ours who I mentioned before. The wife of my colleague was at a concert with my wife few months ago. She

told her that I had been beating her.

So I should confess that there were such quarells while I was trying to get out of the flat she pulled me back. In my efforts to avoid her and escape in order to calm down outside I pushed her with my hands pretty strong mading my way out. She never allowed me to get out, she was afraid staying alone I guess. In those situations I couldn't control myself and was acting like an agressive and egoistic person.

I explain my rude behaviour with her provocation. My friends know me as a very calm and non-conflict person. They cannot believe her that I was beating her.

 

She told about these quarells to her mother and other friends.

I feel very guilty about this.

 

At the same time she told me about the OM.

She had similar situations with him and he told her ''Don't hit me because I also will hit you''. Apparently she provokes such aggressiveness.

 

Well there is absolutely no call for aggressiveness like that.

 

Unfortunately I can relate though. I shoved my wife once out of frustration. To this day I cannot remember what the fight was about, but I can still remember clear as day my doing that and the scared look on her face. There were fights after that but I was always very mindful not to let myself get to that point again.

 

Context means a lot Nukem, while shoving her obviously was not the right thing to do, if that is all you did I can relate and don't think it is fair of her to describe that as "beating".

 

That is her way of gathering support, it is always easier to be the victim that bravely leaves her abuser rather then the person who gave up on her marriage.

 

Another thing you should not share with her or her friends etc. It will not have the desired effect. It is something for you to think about and keep in mind though.

 

TOJAZ

[Nukem]

tojaz,

 

there's another accident.

It happened during the separation. At that time I was aware of her EA.

So I was sitting on the sofa and she was sitting on my lap face to face.

She was sort of cursing at me that I would never find I better woman and she wanted me to find a woman who will bring me as much sorrow and agony as I did to her.

The situation was absurd, she had kicked me out of her home, had an EA, she was cursing and insulting me. I couldn't control myself and I shoved her backwards and stood up. She was on the floor. I almost immediatelly helped her and excused. I hugged her and excused.

 

I feel enormous guilt about all my sins.

May be she is right and I cannot respond to her emotionality. Or I don't love her enough. May be I'm a narcissist and I love the idea of her appearance, of her wealth, the influence of her parents.

 

Time will show us.

[Nukem]

at the other side my frends consider her as a bad person.

My colleague told me yesterday that he regreted about knowing her. He is ashamed of knowing her.

His wife also took my side despite of the stories my wife had told her.

She said that she didn't know so bad person.

Her opinion is that the marriage is doomed because of the enormous difference between our social and property status.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Nukem

[tojaz]

tojaz,

 

there's another accident.

It happened during the separation. At that time I was aware of her EA.

So I was sitting on the sofa and she was sitting on my lap face to face.

She was sort of cursing at me that I would never find I better woman and she wanted me to find a woman who will bring me as much sorrow and agony as I did to her.

The situation was absurd, she had kicked me out of her home, had an EA, she was cursing and insulting me. I couldn't control myself and I shoved her backwards and stood up. She was on the floor. I almost immediatelly helped her and excused. I hugged her and excused.

 

I feel enormous guilt about all my sins.

May be she is right and I cannot respond to her emotionality. Or I don't love her enough. May be I'm a narcissist and I love the idea of her appearance, of her wealth, the influence of her parents.

 

Time will show us.

 

Well Nukem that is something you can work on, dealing with controlling those outbursts and finding better outlets for those emotions.

 

I know the frustration your feeling, going through my break up had many casualties, and i will call myself lucky that i was able to direct them away from her or anyone else. First discovery of OM did result in a 2 foot square hole being kicked in the side of my car, confronting him resulted in me punching a wall and breaking 3 fingers in my hand. Not to mention several items that found themselves broken or arbitrarily tossed in the yard or the hundreds of rounds expended at the rifle range. Little of that is what I would call healthy, but I did the best I could and could have been much worse.

 

Shoving her wasn't right and you definitely owe her an apology at some point should you get the opportunity. (NOT A REASON TO CONTACT HER NOW). I don't think anyone here would condone shoving her, but I think most of us can understand. It is behind you, can't change it, but you can learn from it and change future reactions.

 

at the other side my frends consider her as a bad person.

My colleague told me yesterday that he regreted about knowing her. He is ashamed of knowing her.

His wife also took my side despite of the stories my wife had told her.

She said that she didn't know so bad person.

Her opinion is that the marriage is doomed because of the enormous difference between our social and property status.

 

Marriage is what you make of it Nukem. Do it right and status and position in life mean very little, some of the best love stories in the world destroy that very notion.

 

To love someone is to love everything about them even the bits that seem a bit selfish and the things that can use a bit of polish.

 

TOJAZ

[Nukem]

so, I have to wait her contacting me when the papers are ready.

I think if she don't contact me in 3-4 weeks I should check how the process is going.

[Dark Phoenix]

I am wandering whether I am the narcissist or she is. Or both.

 

You both are... both of you will snap out of it though

[Nukem]

You both are... both of you will snap out of it though

 

I get it. You mean that in if we want to have healthy relationship we have to get rid of our narcissism.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Nukem

[Nukem]

You both are... both of you will snap out of it though

 

I think she is more narcissitc than me.

She is a boaster. She doesn't pay attention to other's opinions.

Her lifestyle is the righteous.

[trippi1432]

I get it. You mean that in if we want to have healthy relationship we have to get rid of our narcissism.

 

Actually, many people think that narcissism means you are a jerk...even Freud knew that some narcissism is healthy on the part of both sexes or one or the other becomes a doormat. A narcissist sees you as an object or you saw them as one.....it's easy to get lost on your hurt feelings and put one against the other...and if you look closely for the sleeping demon....it's easy to find from one perspective.

 

It's also a fact that more women seek treatment for this because they think they are wrong for having healthy narcissism, men who have this and BPD do not seek medical help or diagnosis. It's not anyone's job to diagnose affairs of the heart, the people living the life cannot be put in a petri dish.

 

Carry on Nukem....sorry for the thread jack.

[Nukem]

Thank you Trip.

Look at this. I like this actor and think he is right.

 

"I learned the real meaning of love. Love is absolute loyalty. People fade, looks fade, but loyalty never fades. You can depend so much on certain people, you can set your watch by them. And that's love, even it doesn't seem very exciting.'' Sylvester Stallone

[tojaz]

so, I have to wait her contacting me when the papers are ready.

I think if she don't contact me in 3-4 weeks I should check how the process is going.

 

If you want to check, fine, but call the lawyer, not her.

I'm basing that on how your past meetings have gone and I doubt that would end up being all you talk about.

 

I don't think shes ready to listen yet, if you had said anything that would elude to a positive conversation, I would suggest you shout it from the roof tops at your first opportunity, thats not the case and your best bet is to let her initiate any conversation.

 

Why? well for one, I couldn't keep my big mouth shut and it didn't help and probably did more damage then good. Second if she takes the step to initiate talk, then you know you have her attention and your not forcing anything on her. Third, self preservation. Don't go into a situation where there is a good likelihood that you will come away hurt and only a slim chance it will end in a favorable way.

 

As for is she or isn't she a narcissist, who cares?!

 

What does that change? Would you not love her if she was?

 

Everyone has their good moments and bad, good traits and bad. Welcome to the human race. It has nothing to do with what label you want to put on your troubles, giving it a name doesn't do anything.

 

Forget labels and focus on actions and how they relate to the relationship, your answers are there.

 

TOJAZ

[Nukem]

thanks Tojaz,

 

she didn't request my id data, she didn't inform me who her lawyer is and I don't have access to him. I doubt that she has initiated drawing up the papers.

 

Toj, what do you think about tnttim.

I saw you are familiar with his case.

Here are some advises by him http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/224630-what-ive-learned

 

He sees himself as a success story. He didn't go on full NC like me.

Don't I overdo? On the other hand I am doing something different as per his advise is described.

[tojaz]

thanks Tojaz,

 

she didn't request my id data, she didn't inform me who her lawyer is and I don't have access to him. I doubt that she has initiated drawing up the papers.

 

Toj, what do you think about tnttim.

I saw you are familiar with his case.

Here are some advises by him http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/224630-what-ive-learned

 

He sees himself as a success story. He didn't go on full NC like me.

Don't I overdo? On the other hand I am doing something different as per his advise is described.

 

Yeah I remember TnT. I would suggest reading all of his threads before you act. Tim does have some very valid points, but his story also carried with it a lot of dumb luck and he and I quarreled often.

 

I have not heard from him in a while, but it is true that his wife returned. To what effect, and how healthy the reconciliation has been...... well we only have his side to judge that on and it was usually rather slanted. Most of his strategies in my opinion were both very aggressive and manipulative. For me, even if it would have brought my wife back to me, I would not have been willing to do that to her.

 

I will say that I did not reconcile my marriage and would never claim to have all or even any of the answers. At best I have gotten fair and interpreting a few things.

 

Like anything else, you have to do what is right for you and your situation, and the only one that has that answer is you.

 

TOJAZ

[Nukem]

Toj,

 

I missed my opportunities, I am beyond tim's phases.

 

Advise me,

should I push the divorce today, if I see her.

Should I wait?

Last time she wanted me to take the rest of my stuff, should I proceed with moving out.

[Nukem]

Should I talk to her mother and explain that I've never beaten her and never been unfaithful. And I have no interest for their possessions?

[tojaz]

Nuke, you are still caught up in trying to defend yourself, that was my error.

 

When my wife dropped the big D on me, I went into a panic like you wouldn't believe. Its all still here in black and white on LS and I refer back to it every now and then. I had this unbelievable drive to have to be doing something proactive anytime I had the opportunity to have contact with her.

 

Thats not wrong, I think its important to be proactive, but its more important to be proactive in the right ways and in the right directions. Instead I begged and pleaded, I pressured her, I even threatened to get nasty in the divorce proceedings, telling her i would "rake her over the coals" if she left. (I didn't, in the end just signed my name and walked)

 

In the drive for looking for action, I failed to really look at myself and her. To really dig into the relationship look at where it went wrong and where it went right. I did the exact opposite of what i have advised you, unknowingly through my actions I became manipulative, controlling, and at times down right scary. Which just gave her more ammunition to throw back at me, I became her biggest justification, I became the negative image and reinforced it over and over again out of panic.

 

I looked for allies in the fight and found few, most of my friends didn't want to get involved. She even asked one once point blank if she was making a mistake. He later told me that he refused to answer her rather then support me because the situation made him uncomfortable. Went to her parents, who told me flat out that they would support her blindly, and why wouldn't they, she was their daughter.

 

It wasn't until after it was too late and after the panic had subsided. Divorce was final, she was gone and I could think clearly that I saw my mistakes and that I had in fact not treated her with much respect during the divorce and in an effort to get out from under the panic I chased her away. I was on a sinking ship and I wasted my time trying to pull it out of the water rather then finding the leak.

 

Right now Nuke, you both are in defense mode, your defending your position and she is defending hers. There will be no communication in a situation like that. You are trying to convince her and shes trying not to be convinced, both your doors are closed and nothing is getting through. Thats why I ask questions a lot rather then critique a thread, if every post i made was criticizm, how long would you read them without getting defensive?

 

It goes against every instinct you have, it is your instinct to act, to defend and quickly, there is no quick fix and quick fixes rarely last the test of time.

 

Take the stance that she is right about everything and look for that in yourself, rather then finding ways to prove your not wrong, find the spots you are, find the leak!

 

TOJAZ

[tojaz]

should i talk to her mother and explain that i've never beaten her and never been unfaithful. And i have no interest for their possessions?

 

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If it makes you feel better, draft a letter and post it here. (no names obviously)

Edited April 22, 2012 by tojaz

[firehawk_1]

Why do you want to be with your wife after she's had another man inside of her and she's unremorseful about it? She only went back to you because her affair partner ditched her. It sounds like she's a real piece of work but at the same time I think you have your own issues you need to address.

 

Sorry you're going through this.

 

 

+1. this is EXACTLY what im talking about women acting like this these days. if it were the man, all evil and curses to them....

[Nukem]

If I'm getting you right I'll stay passive.

 

Acting agreeable and patient because I'm the leak.

 

I'll continue reading The 5 love language, tnttim's post...

 

Is that ok?