The unknown role the betrayed spouse plays in the"affair"!

[ISurvived]

I certainly get where you are coming from, but I don't know about having other choices or alternatives, or more specifically I don't know about being able to follow through on them.

 

I know that both my wife and I wanted out of our existing relationships long before we met each other, we just didn't have the support system to do so. Yes, there are always alternatives - I completely agree with that. But what if you are unable to engage those alternatives due to your own illness?

 

For someone who is an alcoholic it's easy to say to them that they should just quit drinking, or pay for rehab somewhere, but if those options don't work should the person just stay drinking or as an option should they find an accountability partner to help them quit?

 

Obviously it's not the same thing, but it's about the only thing I could come up with to draw a parallel. When you are sick, even if you know that you are sick, you can't always just go and get help. People who have anorexia or bulimia or self harm or hoard - they are usually aware that what they are doing is unhealthy, but they can't just go to a psychologist and say "I've got this problem, help me fix it".

 

Were there alternatives to having an affair? Yes, most certainly. Were there alternatives that I (or my wife) could engage? I'm not so sure, at least not at that point in our lives back then. It's very easy for me to look back at the situation and tell myself what I could have done. I can look back at the old me and see exactly what was wrong with me. But when you are locked inside of that sick person it's not easy to be strong.

 

If the situation was reversed and my ex was having a secret affair on me (which she very well may have been, I have no idea - just as she had no idea of mine) and it helped her get out of our marriage, I'd be happy for it. We were literally toxic to each other. We would get into all out screaming matches at least once a week. We would do horribly childish and vengeful things to one another constantly including breaking or throwing out each others possessions and sabotaging each others external relationships with friends. We'd constantly be stabbing each other with our private problems, me bringing up some private issues she had, her doing the same to me. The marriage had to end somehow, there was a lot of garbage that there was just no coming back from - things that are probably more emotionally damaging than an affair, at least in my view. But I was addicted to it, as was she.

 

I guess if people don't understand what it's like to be sick enough to allow yourself to be stuck in that situation there's nothing I can say to explain it. Being much healthier now, I look back on how I acted towards my ex (not talking about just the affair) and I'm completely ashamed. I treated her horribly, but it wasn't just a one way street, she gave as well as she got. There is no way today that I would ever stay in that kind of a relationship, not for a moment. But when you're unhealthy mentally, you kind of cling to that type of poison for whatever reason. I didn't respect myself at all, and couldn't give any either - and this was all long before the affair. When I met my current wife she could see what was going on and didn't offer a rosy paradise to escape to or anything, she was just someone that would listen to my problems and help me in small ways to become a strong enough person to be the one to end my marriage, and I did the same for her. In the process we fell in love with each other. I wish no ill will at all towards my ex and am very sorry for the pain I caused her for so long, but we were just never really meant to be together. Looking back I can easily see that neither one of us loved each other the right way, but we both fed that ugliness in side of each other and it became an addiction.

 

There are no degrees of right and wrong. What you are doing is attempting to minimize your behavior.

 

So you were in a bad marriage. That did not give you the right to cheat. I was in a bad previous marriage. I chose to not cheat. I tried to make it work, counseling, etc. She started screwing another guy, so I left. Could I have made justifications to cheat, absolutely. I chose to stay truthful to myself. If a man (or woman) does not have honor, they have nothing.

 

I am far from perfect, but I keep my word. How can I raise my children to put others before themselves and live with honesty and integrity if I am not willing to do it myself?

[MoneyWorld]

I guess that's the crux of it. To me, there are degrees. The guys who flew planes into the twin towers were more wrong than the guy who killed Osama Bin Laden in my opinion.

 

Or the guy who kills a convenience clerk is more wrong than a battered woman who kills her physically abusive husband.

 

The core "crime" can be the same, but to me I can more easily see how some are greyer than others. In all instances killing is wrong, and nobody has the right to kill another in my opinion, but I can see how there are mitigating circumstances that lessen the "wrongness" of it for me.

[ISurvived]

I guess that's the crux of it. To me, there are degrees. The guys who flew planes into the twin towers were more wrong than the guy who killed Osama Bin Laden in my opinion.

 

Or the guy who kills a convenience clerk is more wrong than a battered woman who kills her physically abusive husband.

 

The core "crime" can be the same, but to me I can more easily see how some are greyer than others. In all instances killing is wrong, and nobody has the right to kill another in my opinion, but I can see how there are mitigating circumstances that lessen the "wrongness" of it for me.

 

I had a much reason to cheat as you did.

 

Of course you see it different, you are the cheater. I'm sure Elliot Spitzer or the previous governor of South Carolina doesn't think what they did was all that bad either.

[MoneyWorld]

I never said what I did wasn't bad.

 

What I did was very wrong, but I don't regret it.

 

What I did in my previous marriage prior to the affair was far more wrong in my opinion, and I do regret those things immensely.

[TrebleClef]

Bravo, Bravo!!!!

 

One of the best posts I have read in a long time!!

 

 

I wish that what I had was as fantasy island-ish as what you've explained.

 

While there were some romantic moments....

 

He took ****'s in my house (it was like I turned his stomach or something thus giving him diarrhea).

 

He's come over funky and dirty claiming to have come straight from work.

 

There was never evil talk of the stbxBW (as HE called her)

 

...and so on

 

But as you have read in my "what would you do" post he's a rare WS.

[The Blue Knight]

I do not agree with cheating, but one thing about LS that bothers me is how the "forsaking all others" part of the marriage vows seems to be the only one that counts with a lot of people. There are a lot more to those vows and a whole lot more ways to betray a spouse than by having sex with another person.

 

Yes, spouses should divorce before being with anyone else. They also should divorce before verbally or physically abusing their spouse, or before unilaterally deciding to have a sexless marriage, or before deciding to neglect their spouses on a daily basis.

 

All somewhat equal in my book.

I like the way she thinks! There's a many forms of abuse within a marriage aside from adultery. Just a spouse who continually takes their spouse for granted is a form of abuse in my judgement.

[StoneCold]

Just a spouse who continually takes their spouse for granted is a form of abuse in my judgement.

 

Aye....

 

and the only person to comment on the magnitude of the effect it has is the one thats on the receiving end

[ISurvived]

I hear exactly what you're saying MW... but dont waste your time too much on this... they wont ever get it.

 

Everything in the world of many hear is either conveniently black or white. Unicorns may also exist in their world as well

 

Not convenient, just the way things are.

 

When I was a smoker, I could make every excuse in the world as to why I was a smoker. I was stressed, it's addictive, it's really not all that bad, blah, blah, blah. At the end of the day, I smoked because I wanted to. Was I any different than anyone else that smoked? Nope. I only smoked a pack a day. Did that make me any better than someone that smoked 3 packs a day. Nope.

 

Do you really think murderers in prison say "Well, I'm better than you because I only killed 2 people instead of 3"?

 

Yeah, we get it. Just ain't buying any of it.

[MoneyWorld]

Not convenient, just the way things are.

 

When I was a smoker, I could make every excuse in the world as to why I was a smoker. I was stressed, it's addictive, it's really not all that bad, blah, blah, blah. At the end of the day, I smoked because I wanted to. Was I any different than anyone else that smoked? Nope. I only smoked a pack a day. Did that make me any better than someone that smoked 3 packs a day. Nope.

 

Do you really think murderers in prison say "Well, I'm better than you because I only killed 2 people instead of 3"?

 

Yeah, we get it. Just ain't buying any of it.

 

That's exactly the point I'm making as well.

 

When you were a smoker there wasn't a way that you could just stop. Why didn't you stop a week before, or a month before or a year before? Because you just weren't able to. You knew how bad it was for you and you knew all the risks involved with it, but you continued because you were unable to stop. You'd make all the excuses in the world, but when it comes right down to it you were just too week or ignorant (I don't mean that in a bad way) to stop it. Just like my previous marriage, even though I knew how bad it was I just couldn't stop it.

 

Eventually something happened in your life that let you quit - it may have been some realization inside of you, maybe it was the patch, maybe it was nicotine gum, maybe it was a loved one, whatever it was there was something that allowed you to quit cigarettes. Without that help (even if it came from inside), it's what allowed you to make that change in your mindset that allowed you to quit. It was my wife coming into my life that allowed me to quit what was bad for me.

[Furious]

Am getting this right...CHEATING IS OK IN CERTAIN CURCUMSTSNCES.

[ISurvived]

That's exactly the point I'm making as well.

 

When you were a smoker there wasn't a way that you could just stop. Why didn't you stop a week before, or a month before or a year before? Because you just weren't able to. You knew how bad it was for you and you knew all the risks involved with it, but you continued because you were unable to stop. You'd make all the excuses in the world, but when it comes right down to it you were just too week or ignorant (I don't mean that in a bad way) to stop it. Just like my previous marriage, even though I knew how bad it was I just couldn't stop it.

 

Eventually something happened in your life that let you quit - it may have been some realization inside of you, maybe it was the patch, maybe it was nicotine gum, maybe it was a loved one, whatever it was there was something that allowed you to quit cigarettes. Without that help (even if it came from inside), it's what allowed you to make that change in your mindset that allowed you to quit. It was my wife coming into my life that allowed me to quit what was bad for me.

 

Actually, I didn't quit sooner because I didn't want to. Plain and simple. I am in the medical profession. I know it was bad for me, but I didn't want to quit.

 

What made me finally quit? I wanted to.

[ISurvived]

right... so everything in your life is black and white....this is how you live your entire life in a world that is seldom black and white... lol somehow I think this may not be the case.....things are only black and white when it serves you...

 

Do I think murders make up a heirarchy based on numbers? no... but I can guarantee you that the general populace (likely you included) opinion of somebody that murders in a senseless drive by versus somebody that murders bcause somebody raped his daughter is vastly different; the courts will likely treat them differently too (even though they arent supposed to)....yet both are still murders.... hows that for "black and white"?

 

 

your right...I'm not buying any of it either

 

Say what you want. I live my life with honesty and integrity. My Granny once told me that integrity is doing what's right when no one is watching. That stuck thank God!!

 

If a guy rapes my daughter and I kill him, I am a murderer. I'll stand and take the punishment. If I did something like this, it's because I CHOSE to.

I would have had other choices to make, but it is my choice.

 

How's that for black and white?

[Furious]

In every marriage there are ups and downs...so is it ok to cheat during the down times...

 

Is this the grey area between the black and white?

[Furious]

Stone cold

 

 

Please articulate the grey area you refer to in regards to infedelity.

[maybealone]

There are no degrees of right and wrong.

 

Really? You believe that going three miles over the speed limit and robbing a bank at gunpoint are equal? Not many people do. Even the law gives them different punishments. But they are both wrong.

 

As I have said before, I don't agree with cheating. People should leave a marriage before seeking something outside of that marriage. But I also think that every circumstance is different.

 

The Golden Rule is awesome. I do my best to live by it every day. But there is another good one... judge not lest ye be judged.

 

If a guy rapes my daughter and I kill him, I am a murderer. I'll stand and take the punishment. If I did something like this, it's because I CHOSE to.

I would have had other choices to make, but it is my choice.

 

How's that for black and white?

 

So am I correct in assuming you would not hire a lawyer and try to get some sort of deal for the circumstances involved in that murder? I'll admit that I would. I'd hire the best one I could afford.

 

How about this for black and white... A guy rapes your granddaughter, and your son kills the rapist. Do you hope your son rots in jail for the crime he committed?

[ISurvived]

Really? You believe that going three miles over the speed limit and robbing a bank at gunpoint are equal? Not many people do. Even the law gives them different punishments. But they are both wrong.

 

As I have said before, I don't agree with cheating. People should leave a marriage before seeking something outside of that marriage. But I also think that every circumstance is different.

 

The Golden Rule is awesome. I do my best to live by it every day. But there is another good one... judge not lest ye be judged.

 

 

 

So am I correct in assuming you would not hire a lawyer and try to get some sort of deal for the circumstances involved in that murder? I'll admit that I would. I'd hire the best one I could afford.

 

How about this for black and white... A guy rapes your granddaughter, and your son kills the rapist. Do you hope your son rots in jail for the crime he committed?

I would expect my son to take his punishment. It would be his choice for what he did. Would I hate it, without a doubt.

 

Funny thing about Matthew 7. Everyone wants to quote verse 1. Let's look at the first 5 verses of the chapter:

7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

By reading all the verses, it shows us not to judge, but to also make sure our house is in order, then we are able to help others take the speck out of their eye.

 

It's not judging to try to help another out that is obviously doing what is wrong.

[StoneCold]

I would expect my son to take his punishment. It would be his choice for what he did. Would I hate it, without a doubt.

 

and here is a prime example.... in this hypothetical little anecdote your son did something "black" yet you hate that he is being punished for it

 

 

By reading all the verses, it shows us not to judge, but to also make sure our house is in order, then we are able to help others take the speck out of their eye.

 

 

...and how is "order" defined? Issue to Issue, your definition may be different from someone elses

Edited April 13, 2012 by StoneCold

[Furious]

Stone cold

 

Lol....I was not baiting you. I am really interested in your point of view.

 

Thank you for your in-depth answer.

[jlola]

and here is a prime example.... in this hypothetical little anecdote your son did something "black" yet you hate that he is being punished for it

 

 

 

 

 

...and how is "order" defined? Issue to Issue, your definition may be different from someone elses

 

This is my cheating sister's favorite quote to recite. Too bad with all the bible reading she does and praying in church she really does not understand it.

 

Judge Not, Least Ye Be Judged Yourself

One of the best known and most misunderstood Scriptures is from Matthew.

 

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5).

 

If Matthew 7:1-5 is read carefully, one can notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite. Instead of being a deterrence against honestly judging, it is a warning against hypocritical judgment. The last statement of this Scripture commands sincere, honest judgment. If a verse or a part of a verse is taken out of its setting, then it can be made to appear to teach the opposite of what it really means. It is easy to misquote almost anything to produce a desired effect or opinion. Misstating God’s word, however, is morally wrong.

 

Many who quote, "Judge not," out of its context, do so in order to promote their own activities or sins. They do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who obey God's Word about judging what is untrue. Much that is anti-Scriptural has found shelter behind a misuse of the words of the bible. It has been used as an excuse to let people do what they wish without the oversight of God’s Law. The greatest danger of our day is not too much judging, but too little judging of morality, character and spiritual nature.

[jlola]

lol ahh I see where you are going. You want me to just look at infidelity and explain right?

 

Is infidelity black or white? well clearly its black because you did something you werent suppose to do. You broke a contract.....

 

What have we learned from this? absolutely nothing

 

Some discussion

 

lol

 

Heres the problem with your angle....

 

 

Infidelity is a result. If you beleive that its a choice someone made then you would agree that it is a result. Because choices are always a result of something. When looking at a situation, no reasonable person would just look at the result; you'll come to incomplete conclusions. So for me to just comment on infidelity is pointless without looking at the surrounding situation. Contrary to what you like to beleive people do this.....thats people. Its called reasoning ability, Furious. Without this it would be impossible to to properly analyze anything. Thats why when something goes down the first question people ask is "what happened?". See when they ask that they do this so that they can process what it is they exactly think about it. Once you do that there is no "black and white" just degrees of some sort of shade of grey. Thats reality, Furios....

 

So.... If I were to properly answer your question...

 

How is infidelity grey?

 

Well...

 

If you are going to wrong somebody; you gotta expect that wrong will come back to you; and you have no control over how it comes back. Yup...thats Life. Everyone has a scale but the balancing weights may differ which throws things out of sync.....and aside from the laws of the land there is no "master scale". So what may be "unfair" to you may be just desserts to someone else; maybe even a large group of others.

 

Someone cheats on an abusive spouse.... Yes the cheating in and of itself is wrong but tell me how many people are going to shed a tear for the "BS" (BS...thats ironic)? "wahhh I know I was abusive but she didnt have to cheat on me....shes a terrible person"....wait...what??

 

Or a spouse that unilaterally decides to commandeer their spouse's sex life and has no explanation. Sure the cheating by itself is wrong but I can tell you many people wont feel sorry for her either for choosing to do something like that... you may not agree but I can tell you many would agree that she "forfeits" her "right" to expect monogamy from her spouse if she does that...enough people to not dismiss it. I've heard many, many....many people say something along those lines

 

vs

 

A guy who is married to a girl who truly is an angel...and he would even tell you he thinks shes an angel...but he gets kicks out of leading people on

 

Reasonable people, Furious would think differently...very differently of these situations...its not all the same.

 

Grey

 

 

StoneCold,

 

Have you ever heard a cheater who did not finger point at their spouse as the reason they HAD to have an affair? My father has done so much to hurt my mother and have her react. She is the calmest sweetest woman I have ever met. But in his disrespect he brings out the worst in her. guess who goes around telling everyone what a horrible wife she is? Guess who tries to lie to us and make her the villain? She treated that man with more value and respect than he ever deserved. They also had a very active sex life and she put every woman he ever had an affair with to shame physically and mentally.Guess what my sister does whenever she needs to leave the next sucker husband? she makes him the villain. I was discussing with someone what her excuse would be this time? Probably abuse cause that is her favorite excuse. She even had an ex boyfriend put in jail once for that. It was easy once she found out there are many usues for food coloring.

 

unfortunately, when she tried to take back the false charges she found out SHE will be in trouble for purgery . So she let that go. this is coming from an intelligent woman who went to a top University on a academic scholarship.

 

Reading about two people who were in abusive marriages carrying on an affair at work but too afraid to leave their spouse makes me wonder why? If you need to have someone else there for you to be able to leave, then you have to wonder why you could not do it yourself. had my mother had to be in an affair in order to finally leave, I would have lost all respect for her. In fact I am proud she never resorted to stooping as low as my father and sisters do.if she were to leave because of abuse and unhappiness, she should have left for herself and her children. NO man should have been her only power. It should have come from within.

 

I forgive my mother for not leaving my father and putting us in a horrible situation. Though I can never understand why. I know she had no family support. But why make us all so unhappy?

 

 

 

But she really had a sick version of love for my father and this is what allowed her to stay.that woman loved him foolishly. I think if she did not love him even in her sick way, she would have been long gone and suffered any hardship she had to.

 

Putting up with physical or mental abuse and saying you are not strong enough to leave, when there are no kids and you are gainfully employed should make you take a time-out and try to figure out why you have so little love or respect for yourself. Not searching for someone else to give it to you.

Edited April 13, 2012 by jlola

[ISurvived]

and here is a prime example.... in this hypothetical little anecdote your son did something "black" yet you hate that he is being punished for it

 

 

 

 

 

...and how is "order" defined? Issue to Issue, your definition may be different from someone elses

 

No, I would hate that he made the choice to kill someone, not that he is being punished for it.

 

Order is defined, once again, by right and wrong, black and white.

 

We can agree to disagree on this subject.

 

I feel integrity, honesty and selflessness are fundamental to ones character.

[maybealone]

By reading all the verses, it shows us not to judge, but to also make sure our house is in order, then we are able to help others take the speck out of their eye.

 

Exactly. And another common thing I see on LS is people who say things like, "I never cheated, even though I had opportunities!" Well, if someone has had "opportunities," then chances are they weren't exactly acting 100% like a married person. At least I've never thought it was common for people to be randomly propositioned without doing anything first. And in my mind, contemplating cheating and choosing not to is different than never contemplating cheating at all.

 

And I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of people out there (not necessarily on LS) that will rally against cheating, but will keep there own marriage sexless or belittle their spouses or neglect their spouses.

 

So yes, houses in order are a good thing.

 

Order is defined, once again, by right and wrong, black and white.

 

Should punishments then be equal? If there are no degrees of wrong and everything is black and white, then maybe the person who goes a few miles over the speed limit should face the same punishment as the person who kills, since they have both broken the law.

[ISurvived]

Exactly. And another common thing I see on LS is people who say things like, "I never cheated, even though I had opportunities!" Well, if someone has had "opportunities," then chances are they weren't exactly acting 100% like a married person. At least I've never thought it was common for people to be randomly propositioned without doing anything first. And in my mind, contemplating cheating and choosing not to is different than never contemplating cheating at all.

 

And I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of people out there (not necessarily on LS) that will rally against cheating, but will keep there own marriage sexless or belittle their spouses or neglect their spouses.

 

So yes, houses in order are a good thing.

 

 

 

Should punishments then be equal? If there are no degrees of wrong and everything is black and white, then maybe the person who goes a few miles over the speed limit should face the same punishment as the person who kills, since they have both broken the law.

 

Dude, you cheated on your wife. You should have had the stones to have the common decency to leave her before you started screwing another woman. It's as simple as that.

 

Just man up and own it. I have tons of respect for people that have cheated and say "Yeah, I screwed up. No one held a gun to my head. I'm gonna do what is required to make things better and make sure it never happens again".

No excuses, no "explanations", no BS.

[maybealone]

Dude, you cheated on your wife. You should have had the stones to have the common decency to leave her before you started screwing another woman. It's as simple as that.

 

Just man up and own it. I have tons of respect for people that have cheated and say "Yeah, I screwed up. No one held a gun to my head. I'm gonna do what is required to make things better and make sure it never happens again".

No excuses, no "explanations", no BS.

 

I hope that was a generic "you" and not directed at me, because I am not a man nor have I cheated.

 

Common decency is a good point. Yes, a spouse who is thinking about cheating should have the common decency to leave their spouse first. And actually, I believe that just thinking about cheating and giving it consideration means that the marriage is in enough trouble to either need work to fix or to end. What bugs me is that other situations are not treated the same way. No one looks at an alcoholic and thinks, "He should have had the common decency to leave his wife before becoming an alcoholic," or at a neglectful spouse and say, "She should have had the common decency to leave her husband before deciding to ignore him physically and emotionally."

 

See, I think cheating is wrong -- but I think a lot of other things are wrong too. I am not trying to say two wrongs make a right. What I am trying to say is that spouses who neglect or abuse are still considered by many to be better simply because they did not cheat. That's what I think is wrong -- that "not cheating" seems to be the epitome of being a good spouse.

 

I also think that if everything was truly black and white, then there would be no reconciliations after affairs. The fact that there are leads me to believe that every situation really is unique.

 

Now, if only someone would answer my traffic violation questions.

[beenburned]

maybealone,

 

I disagree that if you have been repeatedly propositioned you must have been either hanging out at a wrong type of place, or giving off signals of availability.

 

I am in a long term marriage and have never cheated on my H!

 

Throughout my marriage lots of men have propositioned me in ordinary places of business. I have even received 2 serious marriage proposals during my marriage.(from men I have never done anything with)

 

Men are attracted to my bubbly personality, even though I am only average looking. I am a kind, sweet, easy going person who loves life.