The unknown role the betrayed spouse plays in the"affair"!

[The Blue Knight]

I would expect my son to take his punishment. It would be his choice for what he did. Would I hate it, without a doubt.

 

Funny thing about Matthew 7. Everyone wants to quote verse 1.

 

By reading all the verses, it shows us not to judge, but to also make sure our house is in order, then we are able to help others take the speck out of their eye.

 

It's not judging to try to help another out that is obviously doing what is wrong.

I'm glad you pointed that out as I was about too. Far too much convenient cherry-picking from the Bible, and on top of that taking what's often quoted is completely out of context.

 

The "don't judge" verse may be the most often abused of them all but I have one just about as good and it's an affair-related story so it remains topically related.

 

When my ex-wife got involved with the OM on a business trip she did confide in me the dynamics when I found out the day I picked her up at the airport.

 

She admitted getting involved but said nothing sexual happened and I tend to believe that (although who cares now 20 years later?). But what she told me was that as they were laying in her hotel room kissing, he began attempting to disrobe her and she said she stopped him and said, "I just don't think I can go as far as adultery" to which he responded, "But if you've already thought it in your heart, it's probably okay." Talk about taking the Lord's words out of context!!!

Unfortunately, that's an example of what happens far too often. Christ was simply equating man's condition of having an evil heart to the the actions of others and telling them that thinking also condemns us in the eyes of God. But he was in no way saying, "well, if you're already thinking about it, go ahead and jump in with both feet."

 

I give this idiot an "A" for effort but his Biblical exegesis was an "F" I'm afraid.

[The Blue Knight]

Exactly. And another common thing I see on LS is people who say things like, "I never cheated, even though I had opportunities!" Well, if someone has had "opportunities," then chances are they weren't exactly acting 100% like a married person. At least I've never thought it was common for people to be randomly propositioned without doing anything first. And in my mind, contemplating cheating and choosing not to is different than never contemplating cheating at all.

 

And I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of people out there (not necessarily on LS) that will rally against cheating, but will keep there own marriage sexless or belittle their spouses or neglect their spouses.

 

So yes, houses in order are a good thing.

 

In the end we've all thought about someone other than our spouses. We are all condemned from that point of view. The fact that some didn't act on opportunities says a lot about their character, but our hearts still remain in pretty poor shape.

[Steen719]

On the other hand Steen, it sounds like you're much better off without this douche-bag. No doubt he would have kept cheating on you.

 

I agree, BK. He most likely would have continued to cheat on me. I am just having a run of bad days, one right after another. Crying and feeling sorry for myself. When I look at this with a clear mind , I know I will be better off eventually.

[The Blue Knight]

See, I think cheating is wrong -- but I think a lot of other things are wrong too. I am not trying to say two wrongs make a right. What I am trying to say is that spouses who neglect or abuse are still considered by many to be better simply because they did not cheat. That's what I think is wrong -- that "not cheating" seems to be the epitome of being a good spouse.

 

I also think that if everything was truly black and white, then there would be no reconciliations after affairs. The fact that there are leads me to believe that every situation really is unique.

 

Now, if only someone would answer my traffic violation questions.

 

Since I hand them out occasionally, I'll answer your traffic violations question first. You're right. It's not all black and white and there are varying degrees of violations within the law and just as many varying penalties. I don't see how this can really be debatable by anyone frankly.

 

But you're bolded comments I liked the most.

 

We do tend to focus on the cheating spouse oftentimes without much consideration for their environment at home or their day to day dynamics and this is an enormous oversight, although I understand why those who have been cheated on feel this way . . . trust me I do.

 

If we were perfect individuals, we would create enough gumption and tenacity in ourselves to get up and leave the marriage when our spouse wasn't fulfilling their end of the marriage contract. Unfortunately, this seldom happens in real life. We constantly weigh the good with the bad and try to find reasons to stay if the marriage is sorely lacking.

 

Is it okay to cheat on your spouse if they withhold sex and tell you that they no longer have any real sexual interest in you? No it isn't. BUT, can we all agree that we can relate too and understand why someone might cheat if they were a high libido individual with a very sexually selfish spouse? I know that I could relate to that pretty easily if I were thrust into that situation suddenly.

 

For me it comes down to fix the problem or move on. If you've attempted to fix it, and things are still stuck and not moving forward, then it's time to leave the marriage. Cheating just complicates things and in the end, it's not the right way to deal with what you're missing in your marriage anyway.

 

I'd also agree with you that "every situation is different" and I'm glad you brought that up because we have a very hard-line camp of individuals here who think that all cheaters are serial cheaters (which isn't true); who once they've cheated, will always be cheaters (which isn't true); and that leaving them and moving on to an immediate divorce proceeding is the only answer (which isn't true); and that even if you can resolve and repair the relationship you can never trust them again (which isn't true).

 

As you stated, every situation is different. There's an endless list of commonalities with regard to affairs, but we are still talking about very independent circumstances and uniquely individual relationship dynamics that need to be taken into consideration each time an affair comes to light. There is no one size fits all cookie-cutter remedy. There are solid prescriptive ways of handing them as written about by Smalley, Harley, Chapman, and others, but there is no perfectly "plucked from the box" answer which is going to fit every single affair folks.

[The Blue Knight]

maybealone,

 

I disagree that if you have been repeatedly propositioned you must have been either hanging out at a wrong type of place, or giving off signals of availability.

 

I am in a long term marriage and have never cheated on my H!

 

Throughout my marriage lots of men have propositioned me in ordinary places of business. I have even received 2 serious marriage proposals during my marriage.(from men I have never done anything with)

 

Men are attracted to my bubbly personality, even though I am only average looking. I am a kind, sweet, easy going person who loves life.

Agree. You're kind of describing my wife when you describe yourself BB. She has a similar personality and is very easy going and sweet. Propositioned doesn't mean she's hanging in the wrong places or with the wrong people. Sometimes men just take their shot no matter what the situation or the place. It's the typical man-focused shotgun approach. If you put enough 00 buckshot in the air, you're bound to hit something.

[The Blue Knight]

Love it!

 

Also, the quoted "ad nauseum," "Let he without sin cast the first stone."

 

As if, repeating the same mistakes over and over gives one a continually absolving 'Get out of Jail Free' card.

 

The parable ends with Christ admonishing the sinner, after saving her life, to "go and sin no more."

 

I don't see too much gray there, do you?

 

I think it is closer to a one-shot mistake deal than continuous forgiveness because one claims to "see shades of gray" or promotes their own moral code as the 'right' one, or just needs us all to cut them some slack because it is to hard to live an honorable, do no harm to others, kind of life.

 

Exactly. The "go and sin no more" part often gets left out.

[The Blue Knight]

 

My husband is a wreck....he finally see's what he risked losing.

They always seem too upon watching the destruction they've caused. Too bad we don't all have crystal balls, but then, anyone with a dose of common sense should be able to see that bad ju-ju is coming as soon as they consent to the affair.

[The Blue Knight]

Of course most cheating spouses will point a finger and say "s/he made me cheat!!" However, just because these cheating spouses cheated, doesn't mean that their non-cheating spouse was not with an issue. My H had an affair for 7 months, and I am pissed off beyond belief. In addition, while I understand what I did to contribute to our marriage problems that ultimately "encouraged" him to screw someone else, and I accept my part of the blame, doesn't mean I have to forgive him. This may be totally messed up logic, but I couldn't care less.

But you do realize that if you're going to make it work (assuming that's your final decision at some point), there really is no other way. If you don't forgive him, you'll never be able to move forward 100% and attempt to renew the marriage.

[The Blue Knight]

I agree, BK. He most likely would have continued to cheat on me. I am just having a run of bad days, one right after another. Crying and feeling sorry for myself. When I look at this with a clear mind , I know I will be better off eventually.

 

You'll come around and hopefully meet a man who will treat you as you deserve to be treated.

[Steen719]

You'll come around and hopefully meet a man who will treat you as you deserve to be treated.

 

Thank you.

[SandieBeach]

But you do realize that if you're going to make it work (assuming that's your final decision at some point), there really is no other way. If you don't forgive him, you'll never be able to move forward 100% and attempt to renew the marriage.

 

And that's the hardest thing, TBK! At least for me....He appears to be trying very hard to get me to trust him again, but I just get angrier with each day...I feel like I am too angry to forgive at this point. Hopefully it will be clearer to me soon

[findingnemo]

Cheating is possibly considered one of the worst things you can do in a M. The reason for that, I suspect, is that it comes out in the open more often than not. But there are many things that are kept hidden that can be just as bad as cheating.

 

Yes there is grey area. It lies in the explanation for the cheating. Just as you can't justify a murder, you can explain it and people understand. Self-defense, temporary insanity or the clear belief that justice hasn't been rendered and so you take it upon yourself.

 

I think that there are cake-eaters of different types in Ms. There are spouses who want the M life, the perks of being M but deny their spouses what they consider as the perks. In other words, in the M one party is benefitting at the expense of the other. What if as a W, I want and get the lifestyle I require because my H and I work hard? I have the kids I wanted and a home that makes me proud. My H has the same things granted but he also wants a W who looks up to him, who supports him, who loves him emotionally and physically. Let's say I tell him I love him but I don't want to have sex. Let's say I tell him I'm there for him but I can't be bothered to hear about his work issues, attend work events, etc. My H is unhappy because when it comes to sex the one who says no is in total control of the R. When it comes to having a supportive companion, me his W is the last person he would think of as that. For me, I'm happy because I get to be comfortable.

 

Suppose my H has an A, am I responsible for him cheating? I believe that I can't be held responsible for him making the decision to cheat - it was after all a choice. But I'm responsible for putting him in that position in the first place!!!

 

In this kind of situation, yes there is a grey area because as a W, I can't keep doing certain things and not expect a result. Just because another man would have decided to D due to these problems and mine didn't doesn't mean I'm not responsible. I am a cake eater of a different kind. The kind that people on the outside can't see, the kind that people on the outside can't easily believe exists because they are...on the outside. In this case, there are two people who have major issues and who are conflict avoidant. Me, the W, who prefers to live in la-la land think ing I can take, take, take...and not give. And my H who wants to avoid an ugly D (after all he isn't in love with someone else) and decides to get from somewhere else all the while lying and gas lighting.

 

I made him lie and gas light because while I'm not giving him his needs, I expect mine to be met!! I still expect him to be there 100%. I expect him to control his sexual urges and not express them because I don't want to have sex. I want him to remain sexually faithful to me regardless. I'm responsible for wanting to reap where I didn't sow. I'm a cake-eater.

 

But society is always on my side. When it is discovered that there was an A, I can make my H look like a bad man and completely ignore all the things I did. I can argue that he did what he did by choice and ignore that I did what I did by choice. He will not advertise the fact that he was denied sex to everybody. He will not whine about the lack of support for his work and my selfishness. but all this won't matter if a D is the result. Where it matters is if my H and I actually want to keep our family together. It would mean I have to own my part in the state of our M just as much as he needs to own his. Society will not be there to mediate, to hear us out. This is something that can only be solved between the two of us - between four walls.

 

When people decide to reconcile, many times both parties must clearly understand their role in the mess and agree to change. This fact alone proves to me that there is a grey area when it comes to responsibility of the spouse. There are different types of Ms with different problems. That's why I'm a grey thinker when it comes to cheating. While I believe that it is 100% wrong, I know that it is a likely effect of certain issues in some Ms. So I find it is better to hear the specifics of a M before deciding whether or not the cheating had an explanation.

[SandieBeach]

In this kind of situation, yes there is a grey area because as a W, I can't keep doing certain things and not expect a result. Just because another man would have decided to D due to these problems and mine didn't doesn't mean I'm not responsible. I am a cake eater of a different kind. The kind that people on the outside can't see, the kind that people on the outside can't easily believe exists because they are...on the outside. In this case, there are two people who have major issues and who are conflict avoidant. Me, the W, who prefers to live in la-la land think ing I can take, take, take...and not give. And my H who wants to avoid an ugly D (after all he isn't in love with someone else) and decides to get from somewhere else all the while lying and gas lighting.

 

I made him lie and gas light because while I'm not giving him his needs, I expect mine to be met!! I still expect him to be there 100%. I expect him to control his sexual urges and not express them because I don't want to have sex. I want him to remain sexually faithful to me regardless. I'm responsible for wanting to reap where I didn't sow. I'm a cake-eater.

 

But society is always on my side. When it is discovered that there was an A, I can make my H look like a bad man and completely ignore all the things I did. I can argue that he did what he did by choice and ignore that I did what I did by choice. He will not advertise the fact that he was denied sex to everybody. He will not whine about the lack of support for his work and my selfishness. but all this won't matter if a D is the result. Where it matters is if my H and I actually want to keep our family together. It would mean I have to own my part in the state of our M just as much as he needs to own his. Society will not be there to mediate, to hear us out. This is something that can only be solved between the two of us - between four walls.

 

When people decide to reconcile, many times both parties must clearly understand their role in the mess and agree to change. This fact alone proves to me that there is a grey area when it comes to responsibility of the spouse. There are different types of Ms with different problems. That's why I'm a grey thinker when it comes to cheating. While I believe that it is 100% wrong, I know that it is a likely effect of certain issues in some Ms. So I find it is better to hear the specifics of a M before deciding whether or not the cheating had an explanation.

 

Nemo, I really like your post, and I couldn't agree more with it. This whole thing really is a gray area, and frankly, I am glad that I am able to think logically about it. What you are describing is exactly how our marriage was (minus the kids and consciously denying sex). We had serious communication issues for so long but were both conflict avoiders who only focused on good things about our relationship. Neither of us told anyone ever (well, except my H to his OW) about our lack of sex (which was a symptom of deeper issues) - it almost felt like if we acknowledged it out loud then at that point it would become a serious problem.

 

It's funny, sometimes I wish I didn't see things in grey - it would be easier for me to deal with the situation (I think). I guess the hardest thing right now is feeling like you don't know the person you spent the last decade with, and not knowing whether he can truly be invested in his marriage. I often look at myself, what I am capable of, and think that many people are like that. It's unimaginable to me that my H can be with a women for several months (not seeing her frequently but communicating almost every day), and just easily end the relationship because he is sure he wants to be with me. I suppose if I had the affair, it would be much harder to let go of it regardless of how much I wanted to stay with my H.

[SandieBeach]

:eek::confused:

 

Amazing

 

What's amazing, SC?

[SandieBeach]

I've been saying that since I came here and every BS with a pulse on here jumps me for it

 

lol

 

I never jumped you for it!

[Furious]

Most betrayed Spouses are more than willing to examine and yes own up to the problems they may have contributed to the marriage.

 

But let's face it, that all marriages, at any given time are vulnerable, whether we know it or not.

 

What really bothers me is the blame game.

 

The truth is, it's not so much about the grey in the reasons people give themselves for cheating, but examining the grey area of their own character and the poor choices they make.

[findingnemo]

Nemo, I really like your post, and I couldn't agree more with it. This whole thing really is a gray area, and frankly, I am glad that I am able to think logically about it. What you are describing is exactly how our marriage was (minus the kids and consciously denying sex). We had serious communication issues for so long but were both conflict avoiders who only focused on good things about our relationship. Neither of us told anyone ever (well, except my H to his OW) about our lack of sex (which was a symptom of deeper issues) - it almost felt like if we acknowledged it out loud then at that point it would become a serious problem.

 

It's funny, sometimes I wish I didn't see things in grey - it would be easier for me to deal with the situation (I think). I guess the hardest thing right now is feeling like you don't know the person you spent the last decade with, and not knowing whether he can truly be invested in his marriage. I often look at myself, what I am capable of, and think that many people are like that. It's unimaginable to me that my H can be with a women for several months (not seeing her frequently but communicating almost every day), and just easily end the relationship because he is sure he wants to be with me. I suppose if I had the affair, it would be much harder to let go of it regardless of how much I wanted to stay with my H.

 

Yes, Sandie. Being a grey thinker can be difficult. Having the ability to see things from every angle sometimes makes it harder to decide who is bad and who is good. A grey thinker knows that absolutes don't exist except in the case of psychos.

 

I must say though that for you and your H to reconcile requires that you see things from his point of view too. And this you do, Sandie. I am quite sure that whatever the outcome for you, it'll be one that you choose having enough information about what happened. Keep going...

[Furious]

I don't think many BS's would even bother with debating over the grey area if they were to diagnosed with an STD.

 

Hmmmm...how did I contribute to..(fill in the blank STD)....how do I share the blame for that.

[SandieBeach]

I don't think many BS's would even bother with debating over the grey area if they were to diagnosed with an STD.

 

Hmmmm...how did I contribute to..(fill in the blank STD)....how do I share the blame for that.

 

I don't disagree with you one bit. I guess I was fortunate that the OW wasn't carrying an STD, but if he gave it to me, perhaps my gray area would disappear. We all judge based on our own experiences.

[The Blue Knight]

And that's the hardest thing, TBK! At least for me....He appears to be trying very hard to get me to trust him again, but I just get angrier with each day...I feel like I am too angry to forgive at this point. Hopefully it will be clearer to me soon

Takes time. Never happens overnight. If he's for real, perhaps your love for him will continue to grow and displace many of your negative feelings for him, and you'll be able to move forward and forgive.

[The Blue Knight]

I guess the hardest thing right now is feeling like you don't know the person you spent the last decade with, and not knowing whether he can truly be invested in his marriage. I often look at myself, what I am capable of, and think that many people are like that. It's unimaginable to me that my H can be with a women for several months (not seeing her frequently but communicating almost every day), and just easily end the relationship because he is sure he wants to be with me. I suppose if I had the affair, it would be much harder to let go of it regardless of how much I wanted to stay with my H.

But Sandie, you know as well as I do that women typically enter affairs because of an emotional void in their marriage. The sex is just a vehicle often for an emotional connection that they badly need. Most men on the other hand can be sexual and not have an emotional connection.

 

Look at the threads on loveshack. You see one woman after the other talk about how hard it is to give up the other man whether he's married, she's married, or both! I don't recall seeing any men post about having to give up the other woman and whining about losing "their one true love" because they usually don't enter affairs looking for an emotional connection.

 

Your husband I would guess never made any promises to this woman. He never saw it as anything more than a physical outlet, and probably to some degree . . . a badly needed personal ego boost since he likely felt like you moved on and didn't have "those needs" for him any longer.

 

Sorry for the thread jack.

[SandieBeach]

But Sandie, you know as well as I do that women typically enter affairs because of an emotional void in their marriage. The sex is just a vehicle often for an emotional connection that they badly need. Most men on the other hand can be sexual and not have an emotional connection.

 

Look at the threads on loveshack. You see one woman after the other talk about how hard it is to give up the other man whether he's married, she's married, or both! I don't recall seeing any men post about having to give up the other woman and whining about losing "their one true love" because they usually don't enter affairs looking for an emotional connection.

 

Your husband I would guess never made any promises to this woman. He never saw it as anything more than a physical outlet, and probably to some degree . . . a badly needed personal ego boost since he likely felt like you moved on and didn't have "those needs" for him any longer.

 

Sorry for the thread jack.

 

I think I might just get someone to make him a eunuch...

[Furious]

I don't disagree with you one bit. I guess I was fortunate that the OW wasn't carrying an STD, but if he gave it to me, perhaps my gray area would disappear. We all judge based on our own experiences.

 

I was also fortunate, but many others are not so lucky.

[findingnemo]

I don't think many BS's would even bother with debating over the grey area if they were to diagnosed with an STD.

 

Hmmmm...how did I contribute to..(fill in the blank STD)....how do I share the blame for that.

 

This is a very good point, Furious!! There are times when the consequences of an A are out of this world. A terminal STD, murder to name just two. No grey areas there.

[The Blue Knight]

I think I might just get someone to make him a eunuch...

 

That assures you he can't cheat, but it also kind of kills the golden goose at home doesn't it?