For those who think Jesus is a myth...

[TheFinalWord]

Just some advice to Christians from a fellow Christian here

 

There is a time to argue with people about God. But there is a time to cease from it. I argued on-line with atheists in a popular forum for YEARS. Let me tell you, it becomes unfruitful and a waste of your time. Also, I would say it's un-biblical.

 

You can provide your evidence, but don't feel like you have to argue about it forever.

 

1) Noone can come to Christ, unless God calls them. So literally by continuing to argue with atheists/unbelievers you are wasting energy and going against the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

2) Paraphrasing Pascal here "God has made the evidence of his existence sufficiently vague so that the unbeliever can maintain his position, and sufficiently evident to satisfy those that want to believe". Pascal argued against a coercive God. After all, if we had absolute proof, you would not need faith, which consequently is the only thing that pleases God.

 

You can never really win a debate about God on the internet because you can never demonstrate the most powerful evidence, your testimony and the active work of God in your life. If you are just relying on quoting experts (which is all we are ALL doing here unless someone is a PhD in religion, theology, or archeologist) you are incorporating your own biases. You aren't seeing it objectively. You are using your presupposition as a rationale for forwarding a particular line of evidence. And that is all anyone can ever do. We all start with pre-suppositions. Remember, God has made the evidence vague on purpose and clear on purpose

 

3) There is a point in which you provide evidence and then back off. You have to be careful here that to discern if you are arguing b/c God wants you to or if you are trying to protect your ego. The former is good, the latter is un-biblical.

 

4) Paul didn't debate forever, neither did Jesus.

 

6 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.) 22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council.

 

 

Now that is Paul, a scholar and the most powerful evangelist of all time. Even he let it go, when he felt God was no longer in it.

 

A lot of times debating with unbelievers is just to trap you and get you to get frustrated. Make sure the motive for debate is righteous. If it is just to "win" or "defeat" someone, it's un-biblical. God can defend Himself. He doesn't need human help.

 

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me?"

 

And again...

 

Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 6 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.

 

 

Just make sure your debating is biblical and not ego-based! Just trying to save you a lot of time! Spend time serving others in the community. I have found serving others opens up much wider doors for sharing the gospel. Whereas, I have found arguing on the internet yields little fruit.

 

Just sharing my opinions,

God Bless

Edited June 28, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

So why exactly do you believe in God,

 

I believe in God because I have personal experience in knowing Him.

 

and not believe Christ was a myth, a composite of several different people, or just a re-hash of previous stories?

I believe in Christ through 2 sources:

1. God's Holy Spirit, the same Spirit which King David talks about in Psalm 139:7

2. The testimony of people who knew him, including his apostles, who told other people and spread teaching about what Jesus said and did around the world.

 

the big problem is, you only cite your bible as the only credible source of truth, whereas those who do not believe, cite a broad and verifiable spectrum of:

I have cited another source too: Josephus' brief note. Also, if one likes to study Roman history, the followers of Jesus (Christians) were persecuted by Rome, and then ironically later on Christians later became the leaders of Rome, though they had sadly abandoned their roots in Judaism.

 

 

historical research, scholars and scientists, archaeological archives and wide and broad literature expounding different facts to counter any biblical stories.

Just like many different events in history, there are archaeologists who believe their findings counter, and there are archaeologists who believe their findings confirm Biblical stories.

 

we have given you many examples of different studies, accounts and literature, whereas you still continue to insist your truth

Just like you

 

- based on one book that has been through so may hands, been translated, updated and modified so may times, that nothing in it can truly be said to be original any longer.

If one studies the Dead Sea Scrolls, you can see that changes have been minor.

 

so, while you're asking us to explain why we think Jesus is a myth - which we have done - the onus is now on you, to categorically prove us wrong.

 

Dear heart.

 

Well, first of all, your explanations have merely shown me only why some people do not believe that Jesus is true. However, they have not at all proved to me what you believe.

 

Similarly, it is obvious that my explanations have not proved at all to you what I believe. However, the point of this thread is to understand what people who believe Jesus is a myth believe.

 

I totally agree with another poster's answer, who I will quote from after submitting this reply.

[BetheButterfly]

There is plenty of research which places Christ as a historical figure.

 

 

Agreed. However, it is obvious that those who do not believe the research will disregard said research.

 

But I don't think anyone needs to prove anything, rather it is a personal journey in which the 'outcome' is that we become the evidence of Christ ... or the other side of things, as in an anti-christ. This to me is very clear...

 

Cool points, and i totally agree. The purpose of this thread, by the way, is not to convince those who don't believe in Jesus to believe in Jesus. Rather, the purpose of the thread is to see why they don't.

 

Jesus said that there would be those who fall away from the faith (Matthew 24:4-14) so it is no surprise that many people do not believe in him. Even in his own day, many people did not believe what he claimed. However, Jesus never taught to persecute or kill or hurt them. Rather he just focused on the believers' own faith: John 6:60-69.

 

 

 

Personally, I love how the Bible is still used as new and valid inspiration/evidence of what it means to be divinely touched via the Sermon building of the past 2000 years or so. So, methinks that the point of contact with the Bible is what makes all the difference.

 

Totally agree!!! The Bible has many lessons to learn from, and my favorite part is Jesus' teaching concerning loving one's enemies, which I have to admit, is extremely hard to do. I still have a lot of growing to do in that area!

 

 

 

Biblically those who followed Christ just seemed to 'know Him' and this is typically the experience being followed by Christians throughout time. Clearly this means nothing to you and that is fine but to those who do have faith something does seem to lead them and this is their testimony. The same for those recorded who do not recognise Christ. Two way street here.

 

True. Awesome point

 

Until I experienced some serious **** paranormal activity, tbh, I believed in Christ but did not understand the power in His name. So, in the end I have come to the conclusion that there probably is not often a means of proving **** to anyone .. but those who know, know from experience/s.

 

Agreed. Jesus himself says that only those enabled by the Father can come to him (John 6:43-65).

 

Overall, I think it really is about knowing who to listen to and why from a soul view of things. We are the evidence on a continum. I mean if someone read about my life, would they believe I existed? How would they know my internal world?

 

Interesting thoughts.

 

So yeah, myth on. I will keep listening as there are other senses, intuitions and experiences at play here which really are about contact, awareness, the subconscious coming to life and yes, magical happenings.

 

Somewhere in there faith is born.

 

 

Eve x

 

I agree with what you wrote, and just wanted to add too that I respect people believing different things. I do not consider myself a missionary, because I don't try to get people to believe what I do. However, I do enjoy my right to express what I believe and why, and have no problem with other people doing the same, though I wish people would stop attacking other people's beliefs, and just learn about different beliefs and agree to disagree.

[writergal]

I haven't read back through the thread, but my understanding is that Jesus is not one person, but a composite of a few people which originated from Greece. The idea of Jesus as a Messiah who performed miracles and who could walk on water was modeled after the Greek gods who had immortal powers. Plus there were many other "Christs" before Jesus. Jesus is a mythical figure like King Arthur, Ceasar Augustus and Alexander the Great combined with historical element. And the bible is merely a compilation of different evangelists' writings from history, fiction stories, political agendas, cultural rules and standards of the time.

 

Robert M. Price, Deconstructing Jesus

 

How the Jesus Myth was created (part 2)

 

How the Jesus Myth was created - Spirituality vs Skepticism - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

[fucpcg]

Jesus was a real person, he has great teachings, the rest is not really relevant. Study the teachings, not the myth. And for those who believe The Bible is the true word of God... Have you read it? It states that the Sun revolves around the Earth, among a ton of other inaccuracies. I don't believe there is a Supreme Being who doesn't know how the universe he created runs. You should take the good teachings from any source, including The Bible, and apply them to your life, and not worry about the story telling.

[M30USA]

You can also look at what Jesus said to Simon:

 

"Blessed are you...for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:17)

[writergal]

It is only natural that people who are interested in the history of their beliefs study their beliefs, and it is only natural that people who are trying to attack another belief discredit them, sad to say.

TE]

 

If you can't handle another person's opinion which disagrees with yours then don't post topics which invite two-sided discussions such as whether or not Jesus is a myth.

 

There are plenty of people who believe that Jesus is a composite of multiple figures and theories to explain why that belief exists.

 

If your sole purpose is to prosethelytize your viewpoints so that everyone agrees with you, then posting here won't accomplish that. A better place for that would be an online Christian discussion board which I've suggested to you before.

 

People disagree. To complain about that is pointless. The subject of Jesus as a myth has been around for centuries by the way. And there is a lot of research and literature out there from theologians, philosophers, social scientists and even psychologists who argue both sides of the debate. It's really up to you to go find those resources but I don't think that's the point of you posting this topic. I think you wanted to engage in a debate with people, expecting people to post links when really you have no intention of seeing the other side's POV. That's how I feel having a discussion with you has gone for me. I posted here hoping to engage you in a fair discussion but the way you complain about posters who disagree with you makes me think otherwise.

[M30USA]

It's easy to say there are 2 sides to the debate, but here's the reality of the situation: Jesus has more historical documentation than any other person in ancient history--more than Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar...anyone. That is unarguable. Furthermore, the documentation describing him has more identical corresponding copies (or document witnesses) than any ancient text or writing. This too is unarguable.

 

Here is another thought:

 

Jesus came the first time in humility and relative obscurity, and look how much impact he had on the world. Imagine when he comes in GLORY, as he foretold he would.

Edited June 29, 2012 by M30USA

[TaraMaiden]

It's easy to say there are 2 sides to the debate, but here's the reality of the situation: Jesus has more historical documentation than any other person in ancient history--more than Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar...anyone. That is unarguable. Furthermore, the documentation describing him has more identical corresponding copies (or document witnesses) than any ancient text or writing. This too is unarguable.

What is also unarguable is that Grimm's Fairy Tales have been widely distributed, re-written, re-interpreted, televised, filmed and published all over the world, in every conceivable language.

In fact, they have been treated in precisely the same way. Astonishingly, Walt Disney has taken virtually every fairy tale and fantasy ever written, and romanicised, glamourised, altered, modified and subtly transformed them into money-making, rose-tinted, artificial and unrecognisable imitations of the original. (sound familiar...? )

 

And the Bible, this other extraordinary pageant of fiction, has not escaped

...

 

Here is another thought:

Jesus came the first time in humility and relative obscurity, and look how much impact he had on the world. Imagine when he comes in GLORY, as he foretold he would.

Yeah, and everybody will be queuing for ice cream and sprinklings, candyfloss and hot dogs, and think it's all some part of a wonderful frothy re-enactment.

and they'll probably tell him to get in line and wait, just like everyone else....

[TheFinalWord]

I agree. There is no point in arguing. Jesus even instructed his disciples not to hang around when they aren't wanted or the words aren't received..

 

Luke 9:5

And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

 

Good point. There is much more power in getting away from the computer screen, serving in the community, and sharing your testimony and the gospel. When people see and experience the love of Christ, it is much more powerful than typing behind a computer screen to people who are not going to open their hearts to God...

 

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

 

Applicable videos

 

 

Edited June 29, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[Janesays]

I don't believe in Jesus/God for the same reason I don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa, and the easter bunny.

 

But you're free to believe whatever you please.

[M30USA]

I don't believe in Jesus/God for the same reason I don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa, and the easter bunny.

 

But you're free to believe whatever you please.

 

Get specific. You don't believe he existed or you don't believe he is God in human flesh?

[Janesays]

Get specific. You don't believe he existed or you don't believe he is God in human flesh?

 

Neither, of course.

[Robert Z]

I believe in God because I have personal experience in knowing Him.

 

While you may find this surprising, so do I. What if we don't agree in our message? How do you interpret that?

[M30USA]

Neither, of course.

 

Then specify. I want specifics or else we're just shooting the breeze.

[TaraMaiden]

Don't be obtuse.

 

If she believes in a deity in the same way she believes in the tooth fairy, Santa and the Easter bunny, that's perfectly self-explanatory.

 

Go picking fights, why don't you....?

[Janesays]

Then specify. I want specifics or else we're just shooting the breeze.

 

Because to me, he's imaginary. Just like the tooth fairy, santa, and the easter bunny. Do you get that? He's imaginary.

 

I know you believe differently and that's ok.

[M30USA]

Because to me, he's imaginary. Just like the tooth fairy, santa, and the easter bunny. Do you get that? He's imaginary.

 

I know you believe differently and that's ok.

 

Are you aware that EVERY scholar and historian, even the ones who deny his deity, accept the fact that Jesus was a man who did walk the earth and was ordered death by crucifiction by order of Ponchus Pilate? Even opposers of Christ accept this. The historical documentation is unfathomably enormous.

[TaraMaiden]

Are you aware that EVERY scholar and historian, even the ones who deny his deity, accept the fact that Jesus was a man who did walk the earth and was ordered death by crucifiction by order of Ponchus Pilate? Even opposers of Christ accept this. The historical documentation is unfathomably enormous.

 

That's a complete lie.

 

Not EVERY scholar or historian accepts anything of the sort.

 

there are in fact, many scholars and historians who proclaim that Jesus was in fact a composite of several different anarchists of the time, and in all probability wasn't even crucified as the bible describes. It's a well-known, established and documented fact that the timeline is completely out, and he in fact is actually about 6 years out of kilter.

Opposers of Christ don't accept anything the bible states, and the documentation is not unfathomably enormous. get a grip, and stop exaggerating...

 

And it's 'Pontius'

It's in the Bible.

 

As you seem to read nothing else, I'm astonished you didn't know that.

[writergal]

Here's a list of scholars I found who support the Christ myth composite. They would disagree with you MS30 that every scholar believes Christ was one person.

 

Philosopher George Walsh

 

Biblical scholars Paul Eddy, Gregory Boyd

 

Bruno Bauer

 

Arthur Drews

 

G.A. Wells

 

Robert Price

[thatone]

 

And it's 'Pontius'

It's in the Bible.

 

As you seem to read nothing else, I'm astonished you didn't know that.

 

 

i always find it incredibly funny how few "christians" have read the bible cover to cover (i have).

 

maybe if they had been more interested in reading books instead of banning them and burning them these debates wouldn't be necessary, and we could get on with our growth and evolution.

[M30USA]

That's a complete lie.

 

Not EVERY scholar or historian accepts anything of the sort.

 

there are in fact, many scholars and historians who proclaim that Jesus was in fact a composite of several different anarchists of the time, and in all probability wasn't even crucified as the bible describes. It's a well-known, established and documented fact that the timeline is completely out, and he in fact is actually about 6 years out of kilter.

Opposers of Christ don't accept anything the bible states, and the documentation is not unfathomably enormous. get a grip, and stop exaggerating...

 

And it's 'Pontius'

It's in the Bible.

 

As you seem to read nothing else, I'm astonished you didn't know that.

 

I've read every major book of all world religions including: Quran, Bible, book of Tao, Buddhist books, etc.

 

I've read 60 out of the top 100 fiction books of the 20th century by American modern library.

 

I have masters college degree in human physiology.

 

Don't assume to know what I have or haven't read.

[TaraMaiden]

I've read every major book of all world religions including: Quran, Bible, book of Tao, Buddhist books, etc.

 

I've read 60 out of the top 100 fiction books of the 20th century by American modern library.

 

I have masters college degree in human physiology.

 

Don't assume to know what I have or haven't read.

 

wow.

I'm amazed.

 

all that lurnin' and you still can't spell.

 

('human physiology'...?)

[M30USA]

wow.

I'm amazed.

 

all that lurnin' and you still can't spell.

 

('human physiology'...?)

 

And you still can't execute proper grammar such as beginning a sentence with capital letters. Your point?

[M30USA]

Yes, human physiology. Requires all the sciences including biology, physics, and chemistry, with masters concentration in physiology.

 

What is your degree?