Lack of Affection...

[xxoo]

You know my first thought when I noticed this issue? That something was wrong with me. Well, I quickly realized that this isn't the case because there isn't a logical reason for him to be with me, right? Bear in mind that I hadn't really thought of him being gay. In which case, I could be the cover-up? But surely wouldn't I be able to tell if he was gay?

 

You wouldn't necessarily be a cover-up. He could be genuinely trying very, very hard to be a straight man, and the sexual part just isn't working for him. As much as he WANTS to desire sex with a women, he doesn't. That is one possibility, anyway.

 

How do you think you'd be able to tell if he were gay? Gay people are as unique and diverse as straight people. The one defining characteristic is sexual attraction to the same sex, instead of the opposite sex.

[TaraMaiden]

"Q: When did you first realise you were homosexual?

 

A: when did YOU first realise you were heterosexual?"

 

people know.

they just go into different states and extremes of denial....

 

It may well not be the issue here.

But he's certainly playing the avoidance card....

[pteromom]

It could be he has Catholic guilt. It could be he is gay. It could be he is messed up from his childhood, and can't express affection. It could be he has a low sex drive and just doesn't care about physical affection much.

 

But no matter what it is, the result for you is the same. If you continue this relationship, you are signing up for a life with little (or no) sex, and you are signing up for a life with little or no affection.

 

Anything you say to him that might get him to step up and do more will likely have temporary results. Then he'll go back to what is natural for him.

 

Here's what I would do.

 

I would sit down and have a very serious, logical, non-emotional conversation about this. Ask him what he thinks about the quantity/quality of your sex life. Ask him what he thinks about hugging and kissing more even if/when it doesn't lead to sex. Ask him what the quantity/quality would be for him in a perfect world.

 

Tell him how you feel - that you want more sex. That you want to feel loved, and being held and kissed and hugged is what makes you feel loved.

 

If he is happy with the way things are, you have your answer - you will never get what you want here, and you need to move on.

 

If he wishes things were different but doesn't know how to achieve change, therapy may help, and you may want to give him a chance.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't waste a lot of time analyzing what you think he is feeling/thinking. Because who knows - except him.

[findingnemo]

TaraMaiden, I'll stop digging. I already think that I'm grasping at straws but want to give him a chance.

 

That was funny! I have no idea when I realized I was hetero. But yeah, he's avoiding me for sure.

 

Babolat, thanks for telling me your story. I grew up in a very loving family. I bring up my kids with hugs and kisses and lots and lots of "I love you's". Perhaps it wasn't the same for him, in fact it's not likely given what I've seen with his father.

 

xxoo, I find it hard to believe he's gay. There are no close male friends who I could suspect but then if he hasn't accepted it then it is possible he doesn't know himself.

 

pteromom, thanks for your advice on how to approach our talk. I will make sure I'm not emotional and he's comfortable. It doesn't matter what the problem is, does it? The fact is that there is a big one and I can't live with it.

 

It is sad because he is a really nice person.

[frozensprouts]

maybe he's gay and his strict upbringing won't allow him to admit it, even to himself...

that's sad, as if that's the case, he'll spend his whole life hiding from who he is, rather than being happy...

but that's is not your issue to fix...

 

it sounds like it may be best for you to not be together...

 

sorry

[mem11363]

Nemo,

I want you to think about how you approach this. He is broken sexually. And he is incredibly aware of that fact.

 

This is NOT fixable. It is completely hardwired. My guess - he really does love you. He isn't attracted to women. Given his religious background this puts him in a very difficult spot.

 

Be gentle - this conversation is going to be way, way more painful for him than for you.

 

However he got here, he didn't choose to be this way. And I say with absolute certainty that he wishes he were normal.

 

 

Thanks. I will talk to him and try to get to the bottom of it before I jump ship.

[Bellechica]

Nemo,

I want you to think about how you approach this. He is broken sexually. And he is incredibly aware of that fact.

 

This is NOT fixable. It is completely hardwired. My guess - he really does love you. He isn't attracted to women. Given his religious background this puts him in a very difficult spot.

 

Be gentle - this conversation is going to be way, way more painful for him than for you.

 

However he got here, he didn't choose to be this way. And I say with absolute certainty that he wishes he were normal.

 

I agree with Mim. I hope the conversation goes well. Best to you Nemo and your friend.

[mem11363]

Nemo,

I am really glad you see it - as it is.

 

 

 

 

TaraMaiden, I'll stop digging. I already think that I'm grasping at straws but want to give him a chance.

 

That was funny! I have no idea when I realized I was hetero. But yeah, he's avoiding me for sure.

 

Babolat, thanks for telling me your story. I grew up in a very loving family. I bring up my kids with hugs and kisses and lots and lots of "I love you's". Perhaps it wasn't the same for him, in fact it's not likely given what I've seen with his father.

 

xxoo, I find it hard to believe he's gay. There are no close male friends who I could suspect but then if he hasn't accepted it then it is possible he doesn't know himself.

 

pteromom, thanks for your advice on how to approach our talk. I will make sure I'm not emotional and he's comfortable. It doesn't matter what the problem is, does it? The fact is that there is a big one and I can't live with it.

 

It is sad because he is a really nice person.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Sorry, didn't get through all the posts...but has someone suggested that he is worried about chastity before marriage? This was a huge deal for me. I was consumed with guilt throughout our dating years. Not hugging is probably just a lazy male thing. Feel free to kick his ass over that repeatedly until it sticks ^^

[whichwayisup]

He seems detached on some level.

 

Some men just aren't into hugging, cuddling and kissing at all. My friend is a cuddle bug and she married someone who isn't a huggy or cuddle type at all. She learned to accept that about him, he makes up for it in other ways (great husband, wonderful father, stuff that really counts and he's good in bed apparently that way).. So maybe he's just like that, not a huggy type. Throw in the religious aspect of this and the fact he isn't a sexual person (sounds like he enjoys sex just not on his mind like the average male). It isn't done on purpose or to be mean to you.. He is just like that. So, you've got a decision to make, can you put up with how things are or will you want more from him, more than he's able to give that way?

[findingnemo]

He's mad at me...or is it at himself? I can't tell. I still haven't met with him, we just talk about 100 times a day on the phone. He called to say goodnight but was angry.

 

FS, if he is gay, I hope he realizes it soon. I doubt it but if he were, his life may be easier with acceptance.

 

SIT, in my miserable M, the sex was great in the honeymoon phase and could have gone on if I wasn't emotionally checked out. This is a huge red flag for me frankly and the more I read, the more I realize that things will only get worse.

 

mem, thanks for the perspective. He is a really good person and I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings unnecessarily. I know though that it will be hard for me to NOt tell him why we are ending things. That we are sexually incompatible. I already know what the result of our conversation will be because of how he's reacted before and the anger he displayed last night. I will do my best to be gentle.

 

Ninja, it's more than hugging. It's kissing, it's body contact outside the bed. It's the sexual act in itself that is inconsistent. It's as if he puts a lot of effort in sometimes and other times...just does it. I doubt that a kick in his backside will change him.

 

WWIU, I suspect that there are people who put more value on other things - a good H, responsible, kind, etc. I wish I could because that's exactly the kind of man I want. But unfortunately, sex is a big part of love for me. Affection is probably even bigger. I'm a very affectionate person and crave non-verbal proof that someone loves me. So no, I know that I would be setting myself up for another failed R.

 

I'm finding dating or getting back into the searching game very hard. So far I've met 2 men who have really good personalities but lack something essential. The current one with his sex and affection issues and another older man who because of his ex W's infidelities is totally commitment phobic. The good thing about dating at my age and with my past M experience is that I'm more aware of the pitfalls of giving my heart away on a platter. I'm also in no hurry and can look for the right person for me.

 

The bad thing is that I'm a little conservative in that I'm not really comfortable with the idea that I have to go through being with 10 frogs before I meet the one. I mean, how many people will be walking this earth knowing what my bum looks like??

[FightClub]

Findingnemo,

 

I don't normally post in the marriage section, for a few obvious reasons but mostly because I'm not at the stage of wanting to be married in my 20's but I had to say...

 

My condolences! We should send a search and rescue party for your guys missing sex drive!

 

I'll never understand how someone who is with someone else and that person wants an active/regular sex life turns that down.

 

Don't worry though, I'm sure in time the answers will become more apparent and you'll either work through it or find someone who is up to the challenge.

 

-FC

[giotto]

I'm catholic and his behaviour doesn't strike me as overtly catholic. Many catholic people are not that strict and definitely don't go to mass at 6 o'clock in the morning every day! It could be a mix of various things... his religion, his upbringing, relationship with his father and stress at work. To me, he sounds a bit "weird", if you know what I mean, but we are not all the same. What's normal to you, can be abnormal to him.

 

Also, what if he has just a low libido? It happens. There might be physical reasons. Having said that, once a week before getting married will turn into once a month after that... believe me, I've been there... My advice? Run now!

[mem11363]

Finding,

I am hoping you plan to stick with the approach below.

 

We are incompatible with regards to affection and sex.

 

You don't have to get into "why" as it doesn't matter. And if he promises to change - give him the easy out which is "he shouldn't have to change core stuff to try to meet your needs, that is a recipe for mutual resentment over time"

 

You don't want to get a superhuman, unsustainable effort from him as it won't last past the first year of marriage if that long....

 

 

He's mad at me...or is it at himself? I can't tell. I still haven't met with him, we just talk about 100 times a day on the phone. He called to say goodnight but was angry.

 

FS, if he is gay, I hope he realizes it soon. I doubt it but if he were, his life may be easier with acceptance.

 

SIT, in my miserable M, the sex was great in the honeymoon phase and could have gone on if I wasn't emotionally checked out. This is a huge red flag for me frankly and the more I read, the more I realize that things will only get worse.

 

mem, thanks for the perspective. He is a really good person and I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings unnecessarily. I know though that it will be hard for me to NOt tell him why we are ending things. That we are sexually incompatible. I already know what the result of our conversation will be because of how he's reacted before and the anger he displayed last night. I will do my best to be gentle.

 

Ninja, it's more than hugging. It's kissing, it's body contact outside the bed. It's the sexual act in itself that is inconsistent. It's as if he puts a lot of effort in sometimes and other times...just does it. I doubt that a kick in his backside will change him.

 

WWIU, I suspect that there are people who put more value on other things - a good H, responsible, kind, etc. I wish I could because that's exactly the kind of man I want. But unfortunately, sex is a big part of love for me. Affection is probably even bigger. I'm a very affectionate person and crave non-verbal proof that someone loves me. So no, I know that I would be setting myself up for another failed R.

 

I'm finding dating or getting back into the searching game very hard. So far I've met 2 men who have really good personalities but lack something essential. The current one with his sex and affection issues and another older man who because of his ex W's infidelities is totally commitment phobic. The good thing about dating at my age and with my past M experience is that I'm more aware of the pitfalls of giving my heart away on a platter. I'm also in no hurry and can look for the right person for me.

 

The bad thing is that I'm a little conservative in that I'm not really comfortable with the idea that I have to go through being with 10 frogs before I meet the one. I mean, how many people will be walking this earth knowing what my bum looks like??

[giotto]

Finding,

I am hoping you plan to stick with the approach below.

 

We are incompatible with regards to affection and sex.

 

You don't have to get into "why" as it doesn't matter. And if he promises to change - give him the easy out which is "he shouldn't have to change core stuff to try to meet your needs, that is a recipe for mutual resentment over time"

 

You don't want to get a superhuman, unsustainable effort from him as it won't last past the first year of marriage if that long....

 

OP, in my experience, a low libido individual will never change. If they change, you will always suspect they are doing it to keep you happy, but they are not really into it. Do you want that? If this is a deal breaker for you, get out now, otherwise you will have to accept that your sex life is going to suck forever and get on with it... maybe a bit harsh, but this will be the reality.

[findingnemo]

Thanks, FC. No search parties necessary. It would be like searching for Eldorado, I fear.

 

giotto, I remember your issues. And I couldn't understand how it could happen. Little did I know that I was heading the same direction. It took me this long to see red. Ain't it ironic?

 

Mem, thanks so much. You have no idea how it helps to get the actual words to use. Not only will I be gentle, I will do him one more favor out of politeness and love. I will not discuss with any one IRL why we ended things. That secret will remain here and between us.

[TaraMaiden]

findingnemo i am so sorry that matters have come to this...

I really have no more /i can add, other than to say you are in my thoughts... i feel desperately sorry and sad for both of you... you, because you're faced with this life-changing problem, and he, because it seems his past is his present, will never be shed and will always haunt him.

if i could hug you, i would.

 

(((( ))))

[giotto]

giotto, I remember your issues. And I couldn't understand how it could happen. Little did I know that I was heading the same direction. It took me this long to see red. Ain't it ironic?

 

I just wish you all the luck in the world, really... mismatched libidos is a minefield, to be trodden carefully! But it's good that you are dealing with it now and not after 12 months into your marriage, maybe with a new baby...

[findingnemo]

Thank you all. As it stands now, I haven't seen him today and likely won't for the next few days. This is what happens when we disagree. But we will have that talk. Trust me.

 

I'll let you all know what happened when it happens....

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I guess 40 days & 40 nights is just a start. Again sorry about it all.

[TaraMaiden]

Thank you all. As it stands now, I haven't seen him today and likely won't for the next few days. This is what happens when we disagree.

 

Isn't this retreating into the man-cave?

I'm sorry, but it seems guys do this a lot - especially when they know there's a problem regarding an aspect of their behaviour they need to address...

 

But we will have that talk. Trust me.

Implicitly....

 

I'll let you all know what happened when it happens....

this is the passive/aggressive stance they take, forcing us to seethe and wait - until they're ready to come out and approach us....

[xxoo]

Thank you all. As it stands now, I haven't seen him today and likely won't for the next few days. This is what happens when we disagree.

 

That's another potentially huge relationship issue, making it very difficult to work through any problems.

[findingnemo]

Well, well, well... You can't imagine the length people will go to to hide their flaws. Didn't I say yesterday that I wouldn't tell anyone about this problem? Well, he did...and it's beginning to look like I'm supposedly the one in the wrong.

 

Here's what happened.... Yesterday we spoke and he remained grumpy. This morning he calls me all cheerful and I'm thinking "Okay...so we forget about it...again, right?" an hour after talking to him, a mutual friend of ours calls me. She is much older than us and he knows that if I have an issue I'm most likely to talk to her. She calls and tells me she needs to see me because he met with her yesterday and told her that we are having problems.

 

All she said was that she is aware that I complain about our intimacy or lack thereof but that I don't respect him and this makes him struggle with his feelings. That's all she said and I agreed to meet with her this evening.

 

You know what's funny? I'm not even angry. All this does is reinforce my decision to end this. He avoids me completely and then brings in a third party who he fills with...(don't know yet) probably nonsense and diversionary stuff. Wow!!!

[TaraMaiden]

here's what I would say if i were in your place...

 

"Thank you for agreeing with *his name* to meet me.

However, there's a problem....

He has always asked me to never speak to anyone about our problems, because he feels disrespected. Now, he's brought you into the equation to approach me about problems he won't even talk to me about.

so let me tell you now: I do not intend to discuss anything with you, prior to my speaking to him first.

I feel very insulted that he asks me to do one thing, then he does precisely that, without telling me.

He's avoiding me, by getting you to do his dirty work for him.

 

So this is where this discussion ends, and if he wants to include you in on it, I personally feel he should be here too.

 

Tea?"

[Phateless]

My ex use to accuse me of not being physically affectionate.

 

I did not grow up with affection, no I love yous, no hugs, no touching. She did..her family was very affectionate.

 

I would hear all the time "You are not affectionate, except during sex". Yes, I was affectionate during sex and I felt the most intimate with her during sex...though not just during sex.

 

I had "my ways" of expressing affection, not physical, that she did not recognize. We talked about this and she basically did not care. And I would try to work on being more physically affectionate, like more daiuly hugs, though she would say something sarcastic like "I know you do not like this". Which would hurt me and then turn me off.

 

To this day I remember when we were dating, probably 15+ years ago, when I first met her dad, she told me the next day that her dad commented on me not being affectionate. That hurt. It's not like I did not know it already enough from her, now her dad is saying it.

 

So, I am not sure what advise I can offer other than to talk to him, and let him know how serious this is and how it makes you feel. Come up with a compromise maybe. But do not tell him over and over and over...have a serious talk, agree to a plan, follow thru. If, in the end you are not getting what you need, well, end the relationship.

 

And to your sex comments..I am over 40 and can have sex every other day, no problems, multiple times the same day. He may have a problem and should go see his doctor before you both start guessing.

Thanks for posting this, I've had all of the same conversations with my current gf.

 

I grew up with lots of affection until I was about 6, when my sister was born, and then I took a backseat to her for the rest of my young life. Only now that I'm very successful at a great job do I finally feel like our ranks are equal in the family.

 

I honestly feel like this has a lot to do with my connection and attachment issues, though I'm not really sure what to DO about it. I am in ongoing therapy to work on it.

 

 

Nemo, I think you know that the more this thread goes on, the more ridiculous this guy sounds. Having the progression documented so you can read it back to yourself must be very enlightening. I know because I've gone through it.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Phateless