Lack of Affection...

[Bellechica]

She acted like she wanted the R but she told him about the other guy. Did you ask him if intimacy was a problem in past Rs?

[findingnemo]

Belle, I didn't ask him at the time because it didn't occur to me that intimacy could be an issue. Maybe I'm naive or something but I'm 38 and I've never ever encountered this kind of thing before. I hear about it from M people but I'd never experienced it myself. So no, I didn't ask at that time.

 

Update: He (let's call him Joe) isn't giving up that easily. I found the watch at my house last night. It was on my dressing table and I saw it as I prepared to go to bed. I called him to ask him what the heck was going on and...oh boy. For the first time, I wasn't doing the talking. He said he now knows how serious this problem is. He has had issues with sexual frequency before but that he really does want to have sex...just not every other day or 3 times a week. He told me that he spoke with someone who assured him that he's being selfish and should let me go or actually do something. The person explained that I'm not sex-crazed. That I'm doubting he loves me because I require physical signs - the affection. He said that he feels like he is in a fix. On the one hand, he ignored my pleas for a long time and understands why I don't believe him. On the other, he can't prove he's changed or changing to me or to himself unless we both try.

 

He asked if I believed he loved me. I told him I did. He asked me to think about giving us one more chance and promised that he will do things differently this time. That he will listen to my concerns and do something. He won't brush me off any more. He is willing to go to the doctor with me. He already did and asked me to go back with him for the results. He's willing to do whatever it takes.

 

Let me say that I'm confused now. Isn't this what I wanted? Him to try to sort the issue out? Is he reacting to my leaving and will go right back to what he was doing? Or is it possible that he is being sincere, loves me and wants to work on this problem? Has anyone ever worked on this issue for the better anyway? I'm talking increased sexual frequency in the long term. Jeez...

[TaraMaiden]

Breathe.

 

Stop.

 

you don't have to decide anything now.

Tell him - quite reasonably - that you need time to consider this.

Ask him to give you *whatever time period you believe would be suitable* to consider this development.

during this time, you don't want to speak to him or hear from him.

 

In the meantime, never forget:

 

Actions speak louder than words.

 

Suggest to him that if he really wishes to put this on an even keel and make it work - he will have to put his money where his mouth is.

(He needs counselling too...)

He should therefore put this *whatever time period you believe would be suitable* to good use and organise appointments, meetings with counsellors and whatever he feels necessary to take this thing further.

 

And in all seriousness?

Don't use the watch, or open the box.

Leave it aside, and forget it's there.

It has no relevance to this situation other than it will either be something to cherish and keep - or return, as previously done.

[giotto]

since you still love this man, apparently, the easiest would be to give him another chance. See how it goes for a couple of months and, if it doesn't last, just end it. You will then have the proof that it wasn't to be. The only problem with this is that you'll never know how it will pan out on the long term and most indicators point towards a decrease of the frequency rather than in an increase in the long run. Would you risk it?

[mem11363]

LHI,

Of all the posts on this thread, yours "stood out" as the hardest to understand. Sometimes a bit of context is helpful:

- I have always been fascinated by human interaction and in particular patterns in conflict

- 22+ years into a very happy marriage consisting of a high drive male (me) and a far lower drive female (my wonderful W) I have a lot of direct personal experience in this area. We have a high level of candor and commitment. So along the way we have compromised on frequency. To be fair my W has met me way more than half way on the compromise.

- I have also done a lot of reading about pairings of high desire (HD)/ low desire (LD) folks in marriages and am writing this from the standpoint of:

o having several thousand marital sexual encounters

o many painfully honest discussions with my W along the way and

o what I have learned reading many thousands of posts by people on one side or the other of this "challenge"

 

The posts, when read carefully have a relatively small set of "themes" that repeat. Both constructive and destructive themes regarding how people address desire imbalances. Nemo's beau unfortunately fits very much into the "destructive" theme bucket.

 

I am going to summarize, without getting into a needlessly detailed analysis of everything he did. I think it is best to start with the idea of defining where each partner stands in terms of their baseline sexual "desire" for their partner. From best to worse:

1. Spontaneous: This means simply being in proximity to your partner causes you to want to connect with them sexually.

2. Responsive: This means that you start to feel desire AFTER you and your partner begin to interact sexually. Maybe via light foreplay.

3. Minimally responsive: This means that it is hard for your partner to arouse you even if you relax and let them try. Alternatively you may feel some desire but there is something about your partner that makes the experience less than enjoyable. This board and others are full of male partners who are apparently able to bring their partners to climax consistently and YET - those same partners try hard to avoid sex. Oddly enough orgasm is not a consistently reliable barometer of overall enjoyment.

4. Sexually averse: Sexual aversion is frighteningly powerful. Many men (this doesn't seem to be as common for women) with a sexual aversion are also very averse to non-sexual affection. I don't if this is fear that touch might arouse their partner and lead to an unwanted sexual advance, or if they simply don't like touch. Either way, the correlation is there.

 

Sexual Candor:

Many otherwise honest people are incredibly deceptive where their sex lives are concerned.

1. Proactive: These folks will share fantasies and honestly and fully answer their partners questions about all matters sexual.

2. Reserved: These people will talk about sex when approached in a careful and non-threatening manner. If you reach the point where they become anxious, generally they change the subject. They work hard to avoid being dishonest or deliberately misleading/inaccurate in their sexual communication.

3. Deceptive: These people work very hard to make sure you don't understand them sexually. And they are very mischievous and (if you are not well read) highly effective at manipulating their partners.

 

There are many reasons that I believe Nemo made a great decision. Sadly the lower your partner is on the "desire" scale, the more incentive they have to be less candid. Generally they are (rightly) concerned that if their partner really understood how they felt about sex, the relationship would be jeopardized or worse (for them) abruptly terminated.

 

Based on her posts, Nemo's beau was somewhere between minimally responsive and sexually averse. And he was highly deceptive in his behavior. A few dead give aways:

1. Blame shifting: He knows he is the issue and yet tried to make her feel that she was somehow abnormally/hyper-sexual towards him. Once a week for healthy folks in their late thirties - this is a big red flag. He was carefully trying to create some anxiety so she would ease up.

2. Ambiguous / deliberately confusing communication: Going through a third party almost always lowers the quality of communication. There is a sure fire "lost in translation" factor. But it ALSO gives him plausible deniability later if Nemo gets angry about what she hears from the intermediary. He will claim "I NEVER said that to ..intermediary..". Or. if the blame shifting message is accepted without conflict, he quietly walks away having somehow gotten his intermediary to convince Nemo that this is somehow her problem.

3. Paradox rules: One of the most common tactics of the sexually averse partner is simple, often effective and incredibly cruel. It goes like this:

- I feel pressured when you convey in any manner that you want to have sex.

- And the pressure kills my desire.

- So the best way to ensure we have as much sex as possible is for you to never initiate, even in a low key manner.

 

In short: You are not allowed to initiate. The act of (you) initiating turns me off. At the extreme: By definition if you ask for sex "I will feel pressure which will turn me OFF, so I will reject you".

 

And then the game begins. Time passes. The higher desire partner gets more and more anxious because the lower desire partner is not initiating even though they are being left alone as they asked.

 

The HD partner, walking on eggshells begins to try gentle hints to convey their needs. The LD partner, keenly aware of exactly what is happening at every step does two things:

1. They pretend not to notice any of the hints

2. Just before their partner reaches full boil they throw a few obstacles in the way. "I am SOOO stressed about work". Hmmm - what an odd coincidence. Or "my stomach is upset, I have a headache, etc."

3. In some cases the HD partner does eventually initiate in frustration and often gets some version of blatantly mediocre/bad sex. Ironically they get better sex if they start to do things that destabilize the relationship because the LD is under duress.

 

The sad thing about all this is that it is highly assymettric conflict:

1. The HD partner is being straight all along. And they incorrectly believe they are being given an honest picture of the LD's viewpoint. They are operating at a massive information disadvantage.

2. The HD partner is also typically more anxious about this topic. Not always, but normally in the day to day they are. Part of this is a control thing. The LD partner is in control and can always choose to give in, and live to avoid sex another day. Or say no for any of a dozen believable reasons. The HD partner has been told they aren't even allow to express their needs.

3. The result is a foregone conclusion. The HD partners self esteem takes a slow, brutal, relentless beating from all this implied/explicit rejection. And when they ask what is wrong (and they do, again and again), they get a never ending, always shifting list of reasons why sex isn't present in the marriage. And when they push hard they get promised a better, brighter tomorrow. Sadly, sexual preferences are fixed, so tomorrow never comes......

 

 

But I think he did work pretty hard. It's very unusual for a man who is having sexual or relationship problems like that to actually open up to a female friend--your friend, not his, right?--as a "neutral" third party to try to resolve things.

 

And your reaction was to reject the notion and refuse to even talk to her about it. That shows an unreasonable lack of compromising nature on your part since it would cost you nothing to talk to her about it.

 

The next natural step wouldn't have been an abrupt break up, it would have been to suggest joint relationship counseling of some kind, which you can still try to pursue. Again it won't cost you anything.

 

You are identifying one admittedly serious issue with this guy which is perhaps fixable, but haven't done everything in your power to try to fix it. You have a lot invested in this guy and he seems very serious about you.

 

The mistake you might be making is thinking there is something "better" for you over that horizon. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

The older you get the less desirable you get to high-value males. What if the next guy you manage to get into a relationship with seems great in every way but has some medical issue such as ED or perhaps something else which interferes with his ability to sexually function, but he is great in every other way?

 

Women, feminists, are always complaining about how men emphasize the sex. This guy actually gave the feminist answer to you about being only a sex object. It sounds like he may have had something of a point there.

 

If this guy and his problems aren't worth your time to try to see it through, then tell me do you have any better options for a serious relationship available right now? Why aren't you giving this guy any credit for actually giving you a chance? You keep saying there's a three year separation period and that's fine but it means you're still married, and this guy's a Catholic. Why wouldn't you expect that to be a huge psychological burden for a Catholic?

 

You have no patience. You know darn well next month you will or should have the final decree and once you have that piece of paper in hand, maybe the guy's sex drive goes WAY up because the huge guilt for having sex with a married woman is not there any longer.

 

It's only a month. Why don't you at least hold off on the dumping and wait and see what affect ACTUALLY BEING AVAILABLE, LEGALLY SPEAKING, for a long term committed relationship has on this guy's libido?

[giotto]

LHI,

Sadly, sexual preferences are fixed, so tomorrow never comes......

 

yes, but your wife is meeting you more than half way, so there is a brighter future after all... or not?

[mem11363]

Nemo,

Sorry for the momentary thread jack.

 

G,

For most of our marriage my W had responsive desire. She started out in "neutral", would relax and let me kiss and touch her and she would quickly warm up. If your partner has responsive desire, enjoys the overall experience, truly loves you (as opposed to loving what you DO for her) and knows that sex is REALLY important to you, then you generally have at least a good sex life.

 

It is also true that we have our challenges. Menopause has reduced her responsive desire, and she has a chronic "female" condition so intercourse is painful for her. So we almost never have intercourse. But we connect a couple times a week doing other stuff. I travel a lot for work so about half the nights I am home, we play.

 

It is rather one sided though. Often due to pain she can't reach the rapture. I do what I can to make the experience as much fun as possible for her. And generally I let her initiate because it seems off to initiate when the experience appears to be so one sided. I think she feels that I do a lot of nice things for her - and that being loving in bed is part of being a good partner and a good wife.

 

I am a bit anxious about it so I look for signs of resentment. Oddly enough I see just the opposite. However we got here she loves me more now than she did at the beginning.

 

There is a bit of dark comedy here. I feel a bit selfish having sex with a partner who comes maybe 25% of the time. And she feels inadequate because we haven't had intercourse in 4-5 months and given her condition I don't see that changing. Fortunately she manages her anxiety through humor and banters with me about taking on a concubine. And just as fortunately for both of us I have zero desire to be with anyone else.

 

Sorry to hear that your situation remains unchanged.

 

 

 

yes, but your wife is meeting you more than half way, so there is a brighter future after all... or not?

[giotto]

Nemo,

Sorry for the momentary thread jack.

 

G,

For most of our marriage my W had responsive desire. She started out in "neutral", would relax and let me kiss and touch her and she would quickly warm up. If your partner has responsive desire, enjoys the overall experience, truly loves you (as opposed to loving what you DO for her) and knows that sex is REALLY important to you, then you generally have at least a good sex life.

 

It is also true that we have our challenges. Menopause has reduced her responsive desire, and she has a chronic "female" condition so intercourse is painful for her. So we almost never have intercourse. But we connect a couple times a week doing other stuff. I travel a lot for work so about half the nights I am home, we play.

 

It is rather one sided though. Often due to pain she can't reach the rapture. I do what I can to make the experience as much fun as possible for her. And generally I let her initiate because it seems off to initiate when the experience appears to be so one sided. I think she feels that I do a lot of nice things for her - and that being loving in bed is part of being a good partner and a good wife.

 

I am a bit anxious about it so I look for signs of resentment. Oddly enough I see just the opposite. However we got here she loves me more now than she did at the beginning.

 

There is a bit of dark comedy here. I feel a bit selfish having sex with a partner who comes maybe 25% of the time. And she feels inadequate because we haven't had intercourse in 4-5 months and given her condition I don't see that changing. Fortunately she manages her anxiety through humor and banters with me about taking on a concubine. And just as fortunately for both of us I have zero desire to be with anyone else.

 

Sorry to hear that your situation remains unchanged.

 

ok, mem, then it makes sense... I obviously misinterpreted your "meeting me more then half way" and I should have known better, since I'm well aware of your situation. And sorry to hear about your wife's problems.

 

As far as my situation is concerned, knowing my wife, I knew it would never happened. She needs to go off her meds and in order to do that, she needs therapy, but she won't go. I gave it a shot and it was worth it. She feels closer to me and I'm sure she thinks I feel the same, but I don't have the heart to tell her that it couldn't be farther form the truth. At least I have an excuse - my wife's meds - but seeing the OP's partner problems, even without any physical issues - makes me sad and very pessimistic about their future together. Having said that, if the OP's partner has a low sex drive, it's not really his fault and pressurizing him into committing himself more won't really make any difference, because he can't change that. It's one of those things and the OP has to accept it or leave. They can compromise, but it will always feel like a compromise.

[Bellechica]

Mem, wow thanks for all that information.....

 

Nemo, I would definitely take time to reflect on whether or not you want to invest so much work into this man. I think you could find someone who has a more balanced libidio.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Belle, I didn't ask him at the time because it didn't occur to me that intimacy could be an issue. Maybe I'm naive or something but I'm 38 and I've never ever encountered this kind of thing before. I hear about it from M people but I'd never experienced it myself. So no, I didn't ask at that time.

 

Update: He (let's call him Joe) isn't giving up that easily. I found the watch at my house last night. It was on my dressing table and I saw it as I prepared to go to bed. I called him to ask him what the heck was going on and...oh boy. For the first time, I wasn't doing the talking. He said he now knows how serious this problem is. He has had issues with sexual frequency before but that he really does want to have sex...just not every other day or 3 times a week. He told me that he spoke with someone who assured him that he's being selfish and should let me go or actually do something. The person explained that I'm not sex-crazed. That I'm doubting he loves me because I require physical signs - the affection. He said that he feels like he is in a fix. On the one hand, he ignored my pleas for a long time and understands why I don't believe him. On the other, he can't prove he's changed or changing to me or to himself unless we both try.

 

He asked if I believed he loved me. I told him I did. He asked me to think about giving us one more chance and promised that he will do things differently this time. That he will listen to my concerns and do something. He won't brush me off any more. He is willing to go to the doctor with me. He already did and asked me to go back with him for the results. He's willing to do whatever it takes.

 

Let me say that I'm confused now. Isn't this what I wanted? Him to try to sort the issue out? Is he reacting to my leaving and will go right back to what he was doing? Or is it possible that he is being sincere, loves me and wants to work on this problem? Has anyone ever worked on this issue for the better anyway? I'm talking increased sexual frequency in the long term. Jeez...

 

Eyes wide open. I agree to give him another chance, but don't compromise and don't ask him to do so ether. Funny I can not or the life of me understand how having sex, orgasming, intimacy and affection can be a compromise, but that is what it may be.

 

Maybe also date casually too (no sex) and see if you do meet someone more compatible.

 

Again best of luck.

[maybealone]

Nemo, I wouldn't blame you if you wanted to give it one more try. I think you could see the doctor with him without promising to get back together, and see if his problem is medical. If it is medical and it is treatable, like low testosterone, he would have to be willing to accept the treatment. (Although I'm not sure if that would help things like hugging or jumping right in the shower.) I would also ask for him to get into IC, and that also could be done without promising to get back together.

 

Two things I would keep in mind during this decision-making process. One is the lack of affection (it wasn't just sex you brought up, there were issues with hugging and maybe other ways of showing affection). The other is whether or not he will handle other big life issues this way as well. Just to give an example, say you end up married and he starts spending money frivolously and refusing to save for retirement. Are you going to have to bring it up time and time again, and have him not respond until you threaten to leave him and he then talks to a third party who tells him he is being selfish? IC could be beneficial for this as well.

 

Also, think about what sexual frequency would work for you. You weren't happy with once a week and he thinks three times a week would be too much, so if he works up to twice a week, would that be enough for you?

 

I don't mean to bring up only negatives. As a disclaimer, I speak as someone currently in a sexless marriage so my opinions are going to be biased by my desire to never see anyone put in the position I am in. Despite that, I think giving the relationship another month or two isn't going to be a hardship. You could end up with a better relationship or you could end up in the exact spot you are now. You probably won't end up in any worse of a position.

[lv1028]

"So that's that. I think he really got it this time. Oh I forgot... He bought me one of those luxury watches I've been dying for for ages. I refused to accept it. I think he thought giving it to me would somehow sort out our issues." It's called GUILT jewelry. No matter what he 'is', staying with you is 'safe' for him. I think you are making the right decision--for your sake.

[jwi71]

FN,

 

Nothing has changed.

 

He simply validated what you thought.

 

What verifiable ACTIONS is he taking to correct his sexual/intimacy dysfunction?

What Verifiable ACTIONS is he doing to deal with his crappy communication skills, his passive aggressive behavior?

 

Until he demonstrably begins to improve (or begins the steps to improve, ie IC) I would be wary. He has significant issues to overcome and they will take time. Do you want to invest more time waiting (and yes you will be waiting) for him to beat these demons?

 

Tough call - I can see it either way.

 

Choose carefully and deliberately.

[findingnemo]

Wow! So much good advice. Thank you people. It's incredible how I can't seem to concentrate today. All I thought about was this issue.

 

TM, I did ask him to give me some time. I didn't specify how much. Perhaps I should. He's called me a couple of times today. He's upset about something that happened at work. Didn't bring up the topic which is well and good. I don't know about asking him for a break. I want to go with him to the doctor. That appointment is tomorrow. So I think I'll give him a chance although I'll do it with no expectations.

 

Giotto, I'm worried about the common problem of decreasing sex drive. And while I can appreciate him saying he will work on it. I think it's a bit unfair on him. I sense that he really wants our R. And the truth is we make a really good team when it comes to other things.

 

mem, that is some really good information!!! On the sexual desire baseline, I'm spontaneous. I get turned on just being around a man I like/love. I also am into touching and kissing and hugging. It's automatic for me when we are alone. I'm not into PDA though.

 

I find it hard to decide if he's minimally responsive or sexually averse. When we do have sex, he does have an O. He looks like he's enjoying it although he is so silent that if I didn't feel him, I'd not know he's there. You're right about sex not being the only issue. I HATE the lack of affection. I think this disturbs me more than the weekly sex. It seems so unnatural. How can someone not want to hug and kiss, or hold hands. When we are watching movies and he's lying next to me, if I put my arm around him, he tells me to stop. It's the weirdest thing... So yeah, you're right. He's somewhere between the two.

 

Sexual candor: I'm not proactive, I think. It takes time for me to open up about fantasies and past experiences. I need to trust the person first and that takes some time. Joe is deceptive? I think so because of the numerous excuses he's given. His libido is non-existent when he's stressed. Then it's my approach that's aggressive and turns him off. Then when he wants to have sex, I'm unavailable, etc.

 

Based on her posts, Nemo's beau was somewhere between minimally responsive and sexually averse. And he was highly deceptive in his behavior. A few dead give aways:

1. Blame shifting: He knows he is the issue and yet tried to make her feel that she was somehow abnormally/hyper-sexual towards him. Once a week for healthy folks in their late thirties - this is a big red flag. He was carefully trying to create some anxiety so she would ease up.

2. Ambiguous / deliberately confusing communication: Going through a third party almost always lowers the quality of communication. There is a sure fire "lost in translation" factor. But it ALSO gives him plausible deniability later if Nemo gets angry about what she hears from the intermediary. He will claim "I NEVER said that to ..intermediary..". Or. if the blame shifting message is accepted without conflict, he quietly walks away having somehow gotten his intermediary to convince Nemo that this is somehow her problem.

3. Paradox rules: One of the most common tactics of the sexually averse partner is simple, often effective and incredibly cruel. It goes like this:

- I feel pressured when you convey in any manner that you want to have sex.

- And the pressure kills my desire.

- So the best way to ensure we have as much sex as possible is for you to never initiate, even in a low key manner.

 

In short: You are not allowed to initiate. The act of (you) initiating turns me off. At the extreme: By definition if you ask for sex "I will feel pressure which will turn me OFF, so I will reject you".

 

And then the game begins. Time passes. The higher desire partner gets more and more anxious because the lower desire partner is not initiating even though they are being left alone as they asked.

 

All this ^^^^ is true. It's scary how exact it is a description of what happens. I'm not allowed to initiate because it turns him off. I must wait until he's ready. I'm not allowed to touch him because he sees it as initiation. Talk about being boxed in a corner.

 

Reading your post, I'm thinking this is more serious than I thought. I feel sorry for him because it's not something that just goes away. It's "his" normal. How can he fight his normal libido? Did I just say I'm giving him a chance a minute ago? I think I need to think about this. I'll go to the doctor with him but I'm not going to say we are okay. We aren't and I doubt we will be. Let's see what the doc says.

[findingnemo]

Eyes wide open. I agree to give him another chance, but don't compromise and don't ask him to do so ether. Funny I can not or the life of me understand how having sex, orgasming, intimacy and affection can be a compromise, but that is what it may be.

 

Maybe also date casually too (no sex) and see if you do meet someone more compatible.

 

Again best of luck.

 

I'm reading and responding to two or three responses at at time. Forgive me if I begin to repeat myself. I'm also thinking it's not fair to make him compromise. Dating casually isn't something we do here. I don't mean we have sex all the time. I mean that it is culturally unacceptable and knowing Joe, he'd take it as a personal insult. Better I leave him first.

 

Also, think about what sexual frequency would work for you. You weren't happy with once a week and he thinks three times a week would be too much, so if he works up to twice a week, would that be enough for you?

 

You know, this issue of 3x a week came about because I was trying to do something. It's not set in stone. I'm sure 2x a week would be fine...if it can happen without seeming mechanical or contrived.

 

Lv1028, guilt jewelry? My H gave me lots of those. And I took them too. that reminds me...TM, I did open the box. No harm, I'd opened it at lunch anyway. I won't wear the watch and will give it back at the earliest opportunity.

 

jw171, I'm going with him to the Dr.'s office tomorrow for the results of his tests. Not sure exactly what tests were done. But I think that's a start. Maybe I'm wrong but a man allowing me to go to hear his results regarding sexual problems? I will talk to him about IC. The way he deflects and made it my fault isn't a good sign. I've been there done that and boy was I M to a basket case. I will be both careful and deliberate...thanks.

[SerenityX2]

Nemo, I'm sorry if this is hasty but did I just read correctly that he doesn't want you to initiate at all? Did I misunderstand something? If that's true where's the fun in that? It needs to go both ways to keep things alive and interesting, otherwise it'll fall into a monontaneous rut.

 

And did I read correctly that you'd prefer 3x a week but would settle for 2x? (I only scanned this so smack me if I'm taking out of context!) I don't think you should settle on something like that as it's only going to likely drop more if you stay together. I mean when I first got married we couldn't get enough of each other and for an older couple (I've almost got 10 years on you) let's just say Now it's more like 3-4 on average a week sometimes we'll hit a spurt and it's more, but even our "average" is not nearly as insane as it was that couple years. So if you're just dating him now and it's like that....I just worry what will happen in the future with him. It's hard though, something to think about, I guess it depends on how well all the other things click. Best wishes and I hope you have peace and clarity to figure it out.

[mem11363]

Bella,

Happy to share what I have observed. A lot of folks see it differently but I view badly behaved LD partners as the same as partners who have affairs. In both cases there is a huge violation of trust. In both cases the injured spouse ends up in a very bad place emotionally.

 

One reasons my W and I have a happy marriage is that we both have a strong desire to please and an equally strong desire not to cause each other distress.

 

Mem, wow thanks for all that information.....

 

Nemo, I would definitely take time to reflect on whether or not you want to invest so much work into this man. I think you could find someone who has a more balanced libidio.

[findingnemo]

SIT, that's encouraging. Did your H have issues with affection too? I'm having a hard time deciding whether the R is worth the effort or not. On the one hand, he's a good guy, etc. But the way he has behaved with regards to this issue worries me. If I've learned anything it's to recognize red flags and heed my intuition. A voice does whisper that I'm extra sensitive due to my abusive M. Is that sensitivity making me over- react? Is it responsible for my worry that Joe's manipulative behaviour could manifest itself in other areas? Frankly, I'm thinking it's a sign.

 

Thanks Serenity. I wouldn't be settling...at least I don't think so. IME, sex isn't a scheduled thing. I would always have it 3 times a week at least but there were weeks I'd have none or way too much depending on what was going on. If you'd asked me about sexual frequency before all this, I'd have to really think about it. I never walked around knowing how many times I had sex per week. So I don't think 2x a week would be a problem if I wasn't begging for it, literally having to negotiate the day and hearing that "We just sex 5 days ago" as an excuse not to have it now.

 

The Dr.'s appointment is this afternoon. Joe seems nervous. We talked last night and he was telling me a story about someone he knew who was dishonest. I told him that he is a very honest person about everything except sex. Of course he got pi$$ed and I regretted bringing it up. I have to be more careful not to make this a discussion every time we talk or meet.

 

I am a bit resentful. I don't think it's because of not getting sex and affection but rather because ever since I started posting and subsequently talking to him, I feel like all the time we've been together has been a lie of sorts. This issue existed from maybe 2 months after we started seeing each other. Before that I was fine because I didn't spend a lot of time with him. I was getting to know him and sex wasn't frequent. Since we've been together 12 months, this means he's been playing with my mind for 10. That really bugs me to the point that even if the Dr came up with an explanation, I might have a hard time getting over the mind games.

[TaraMaiden]

If I've learned anything it's to recognize red flags and heed my intuition. A voice does whisper that I'm extra sensitive due to my abusive M. Is that sensitivity making me over- react? Is it responsible for my worry that Joe's manipulative behaviour could manifest itself in other areas? Frankly, I'm thinking it's a sign.

"Once bitten, twice shy." If only more people listened to their little voice.... They don't talk about "Women's Intuition" for nothing...

 

The Dr.'s appointment is this afternoon. Joe seems nervous. We talked last night and he was telling me a story about someone he knew who was dishonest. I told him that he is a very honest person about everything except sex. Of course he got pi$$ed and I regretted bringing it up. I have to be more careful not to make this a discussion every time we talk or meet.

That's ridiculous! This is the crux of the problem, of course it has to be discussed!

you haven't even been to the doctor yet, and already you're walking on egg-shells...? WTF....?!

If he's sensitive and touchy now, what's he going to be like when everything is focussed on the problem? what, he thinks this can be resolved without his "owning it"...? he's kidding.... right?

 

I am a bit resentful. I don't think it's because of not getting sex and affection but rather because ever since I started posting and subsequently talking to him, I feel like all the time we've been together has been a lie of sorts.

DING DING DING- !!

 

This issue existed from maybe 2 months after we started seeing each other. Before that I was fine because I didn't spend a lot of time with him. I was getting to know him and sex wasn't frequent. Since we've been together 12 months, this means he's been playing with my mind for 10.

 

Well, forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but this issue hasn't exploded overnight, though it has - if you will please excuse the pun - reached a climax now....

this has been messing with your head for 10 months - but I'd be willing to bet that intuitively (there it is again!) you knew this was escalating...you had that little voice, that unsettling niggle, beginning to tap on the back of your head - now, it's using a metal skillet , do you see what i mean....?

 

That really bugs me to the point that even if the Dr came up with an explanation, I might have a hard time getting over the mind games.

OK, let me explain something to you.

the Doctor comes up 'with an explanation.'

 

All well and good.

But - that's - not - the - solution.

 

That's just the explanation.

 

The solution then has to be arrived at.

THAT'S going to be the work.

This is where the rubber hits the road, and this is when he's going to have to step up to the plate, own the problem, agree it's a problem, and actively decide what he feels the best solution to the problem would be.

and you're both going to have to contribute - whatever it takes - to sorting this problem out.

 

Does that sound like too much hard work?

 

Or Not?

[giotto]

But - that's - not - the - solution.

 

That's just the explanation.

 

There is no solution. It will always be a compromise. Even if "Joe" does indeed stick to his words and changes, it won't feel natural, because FN will know he is doing it for her. So, I think the crux of the matter is: if he changes, is FN prepared to compromise a bit and, more importantly, will she be able to sustain a R where she knows that sex or affection will never be spontaneous, or, if it appears spontaneous, live with the feeling that he is not really into it but he is doing it to please her? If FN is prepared to accept this, then have a go, otherwise there is no point...

[findingnemo]

TM, you make me laugh!! DING! DING! DING!

 

It all seems like too much work with very little chance of success. If it were a business opportunity, I'd decline. Thanks for making me see it more clearly. I write as if I'm confused but clearly my intuition is screaming at me.

 

Well, forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but this issue hasn't exploded overnight, though it has - if you will please excuse the pun - reached a climax now....

this has been messing with your head for 10 months - but I'd be willing to bet that intuitively (there it is again!) you knew this was escalating...you had that little voice, that unsettling niggle, beginning to tap on the back of your head - now, it's using a metal skillet , do you see what i mean....?

 

Yes, I admit this is true. It used to bug me but I'd let it go. Over the Easter weekend, I went away with my kids, friends and family. Two cousins start talking about the men in their lives. They described them and talked about how they interact differently. It's this conversation (coupled with the fact that I was on holiday and could think about the issue) that made me realize that something had to be done. Of course I was also looking forward to the end of the dreaded Lent. I came back determined to discuss this and Joe's deliberate avoidance of me (when he should have been jumping me) just crystallized everything. All the odd thoughts I'd had and brushed aside came back. I remembered everything and for the first time wondered if I was dealing with a serious problem. So I came here...

[findingnemo]

Thanks, SIT. My intuition is clear - end this now.

 

Here's some news...We sat in the Dr.'s office and I spent most of the waiting time on LS. Why? Joe didn't want to talk. Instead he spent all the time on the phone working. No problem... I get to catch up on LS, no loss for me.

 

The Dr found a bacterial infection. Something that makes him susceptible to stomach aches, etc. He's had this problem for years. Here is the interesting thing. Yes, Joe went to the Dr. Yes, he asked for tests BUT...

 

The visit was about his stomach issues. Testing for testosterone was a by the way. The Dr was busy talking about everything but the pertinent issue. I know about the testosterone because its right there on the paper. Its among a number of tests and it says "within normal range" and some numbers. So I asked him (the doc) what kind of Dr he was. A gastro- something specialist. I could google it but all you need to know is that he's a stomach Dr. Errr, what happened to "I went to the Dr for some tests" in context of discussing our sex issues? Should I have asked for specifics about which doctor, where? I didn't. I made an assumption and frankly, I think that assumption wasn't unwarranted given what we were discussing.

 

I didn't quarrel, I didn't even discuss the "results". I just sat in the car and had him drop me at my house. My car is at the office but I didn't have the energy to go pick it up. I should be working but I'm not in the mood. Thank God it's Friday. I'm going to watch movies and pour myself some wine...oh, and stick to LS. Addiction?

[jwi71]

Thanks, SIT. My intuition is clear - end this now.

 

Here's some news...We sat in the Dr.'s office and I spent most of the waiting time on LS. Why? Joe didn't want to talk. Instead he spent all the time on the phone working. No problem... I get to catch up on LS, no loss for me.

 

The Dr found a bacterial infection. Something that makes him susceptible to stomach aches, etc. He's had this problem for years. Here is the interesting thing. Yes, Joe went to the Dr. Yes, he asked for tests BUT...

 

The visit was about his stomach issues. Testing for testosterone was a by the way. The Dr was busy talking about everything but the pertinent issue. I know about the testosterone because its right there on the paper. Its among a number of tests and it says "within normal range" and some numbers. So I asked him (the doc) what kind of Dr he was. A gastro- something specialist. I could google it but all you need to know is that he's a stomach Dr. Errr, what happened to "I went to the Dr for some tests" in context of discussing our sex issues? Should I have asked for specifics about which doctor, where? I didn't. I made an assumption and frankly, I think that assumption wasn't unwarranted given what we were discussing.

 

I didn't quarrel, I didn't even discuss the "results". I just sat in the car and had him drop me at my house. My car is at the office but I didn't have the energy to go pick it up. I should be working but I'm not in the mood. Thank God it's Friday. I'm going to watch movies and pour myself some wine...oh, and stick to LS. Addiction?

 

Whoa. Wait a minute.

 

His Dr appt wasn't about the sex issue?

 

FN, did he mislead you that? Was your impression the visit was specifically about that? Or was that MY impression?

 

If he misled you, then all he is doing is validating what you say then doing nothing. In fact, worse than doing nothing he would be lying by given you the impression he is working on it but try not.

 

Or am I reading this wrong? He didn't mislead you and it's my faulty understanding....

[TaraMaiden]

jwi71 - he was definitely BS'ing her....

 

..... For the first time, I wasn't doing the talking. He said he now knows how serious this problem is. He has had issues with sexual frequency before but that he really does want to have sex...just not every other day or 3 times a week. He told me that he spoke with someone who assured him that he's being selfish and should let me go or actually do something. The person explained that I'm not sex-crazed. That I'm doubting he loves me because I require physical signs - the affection. He said that he feels like he is in a fix. On the one hand, he ignored my pleas for a long time and understands why I don't believe him. On the other, he can't prove he's changed or changing to me or to himself unless we both try.

 

He asked if I believed he loved me. I told him I did. He asked me to think about giving us one more chance and promised that he will do things differently this time. ...... He won't brush me off any more. He is willing to go to the doctor with me. He already did and asked me to go back with him for the results. He's willing to do whatever it takes.

 

 

FN,

 

Nothing has changed.

 

He simply validated what you thought.

 

What verifiable ACTIONS is he taking to correct his sexual/intimacy dysfunction?

What Verifiable ACTIONS is he doing to deal with his crappy communication skills, his passive aggressive behavior?

 

Until he demonstrably begins to improve (or begins the steps to improve, ie IC) I would be wary. He has significant issues to overcome and they will take time. Do you want to invest more time waiting (and yes you will be waiting) for him to beat these demons?

 

Tough call - I can see it either way.

 

Choose carefully and deliberately.

 

The Dr.'s appointment is this afternoon. Joe seems nervous. We talked last night and he was telling me a story about someone he knew who was dishonest. I told him that he is a very honest person about everything except sex. Of course he got pi$$ed and I regretted bringing it up. I have to be more careful not to make this a discussion every time we talk or meet.

 

.....even if the Dr came up with an explanation, I might have a hard time getting over the mind games.

 

Here's some news...We sat in the Dr.'s office and I spent most of the waiting time on LS. Why? Joe didn't want to talk. Instead he spent all the time on the phone working. No problem... I get to catch up on LS, no loss for me.

 

The Dr found a bacterial infection. Something that makes him susceptible to stomach aches, etc. He's had this problem for years. Here is the interesting thing. Yes, Joe went to the Dr. Yes, he asked for tests BUT...

 

The visit was about his stomach issues. Testing for testosterone was a by the way. The Dr was busy talking about everything but the pertinent issue. I know about the testosterone because its right there on the paper. Its among a number of tests and it says "within normal range" and some numbers. So I asked him (the doc) what kind of Dr he was. A gastro- something specialist. I could google it but all you need to know is that he's a stomach Dr. Errr, what happened to "I went to the Dr for some tests" in context of discussing our sex issues? Should I have asked for specifics about which doctor, where? I didn't. I made an assumption and frankly, I think that assumption wasn't unwarranted given what we were discussing.

 

I didn't quarrel, I didn't even discuss the "results". I just sat in the car and had him drop me at my house. ....

 

So.... we really are looking at a Prime Bullschytter, aren't we?

[maybealone]

I should be working but I'm not in the mood. Thank God it's Friday. I'm going to watch movies and pour myself some wine...oh, and stick to LS. Addiction?

 

You SO deserve this!

 

I don't know about where you live, but around here you typically don't get in to see a specialist very quickly. It's possible he had that appointment scheduled before you ever started your discussions, not as a result of the discussions. Which could be another red flag if he tried to make it seem like he made this appointment as a sign he was going to work on things.

 

Enjoy your afternoon!!