Can't figure out how to get the divorce

[NeverDated]

We agreed on a divorce. We both want a divorce. But he's a $#^% and won't pay for an attorney until I lawyer up first. The lawyers I have spoken to all want retainers for $1,800 to $2,500 just to start, and charge upwards of $250/hour after that. I'm looking at $5,000 minimum from what they said.

 

There are discount/pro-bono services in my area, but they all have very long waiting lists. Domestic abuse victims get pushed ahead, but I have no police reports to prove what happened AND I don't want to drag that out in court because the divorce will turn all kinds of nasty. I want to get it over with quickly and painlessly. I don't care what I "get" - I just want my maiden name back and to be able to burn my marriage license.

 

I'm just feeling really down on the whole situation right now. I'm usually very good at figuring out how to put one foot in front of the other, but right now I feel stuck and without direction. Any encouragement? Upbeat attitudes? Suggestions?

[TaraMaiden]

Revert to your maiden name, and disappear.

then, file for divorce when the time period is up.

Other than that, i can't think of what else you can do....

[NeverDated]

I can't disappear. We have four kids together, so he could send the cops after me. Trust me, though, the thought of taking back my maiden name and moving to the mountains in Tennessee has crossed my mind.

 

For years he threatened suicide. Would make things so much easier.

[TaraMaiden]

can you or your bf take out a loan...?

with a D settlement there is some assurance of repayment....

 

i'm sorry, I have no idea what to suggest....

[elfman]

Question, and this is me not knowing much about the law outside my own backwater country. If you want nothing but your maiden name and the right to leave, can you not represent yourself? Can you not "download" a format of the divorce lawsuit or separation document and file it yourself at the court? I ask because down here all you need is your ID and access to a Notary Public to do this, of course, you leave yourself open to financial loss if you do, but since that is not of any interest to you...

 

If you have kids you need a lawyer though... you might not want anything, but your kids deserve some sort of financial security. Can you not ask a social services office to consider your case based on you having 4 kids and past history of abuse (although unproven)?

 

Lawyer friend? Have you gone to the court and found out what is actually needed? Are you filing for full custody?

 

Hope it helps.

 

E.

Edited April 11, 2012 by elfman

[jaymz]

Have you looked at doing the divorce yourself and getting help from a local law college? Have a look at carhill's posts, he has done it himself.

[NeverDated]

OK, here's what I have so far.

 

- Child support order dated from January (filed for it back in August). Illinois handles these for free. It's about time a half what he was "voluntarily" giving me for child support from last April (the "official" separation date) until early March when the order was first enforced. Should I decide to pursue back child support to the official split date, it would require a lawyer, but the back support would be to the tune of $12,000.

- Co-parenting agreement. We have agreed on visitation and how the kids will be raised. He gets them every other weekend, I we have "joint custody" but I am the primary guardian.

- We have agreed to no alimony, which at first I wasn't thrilled with but now it would just add more to court costs and IDGAF.

- Agreement on the separation of assets. He will willingly give up all rights to the house (it's worth less than a third of what we purchased it for and probably going to be given back to the bank anyway). Split the vehicles. Agreed on who takes which credit card.

 

It would be a major hassle to DIY with the kids and the house. However, it can be done with a bit of legal counsel (semi-DIY).

 

What's really holding up getting this finished is his student loans. When we were younger and he was in college, I cosigned on his private education loans because his credit was so bad. The agreement we made at the time (which he now denies), is that we would pay off his student loans by age 30 and I would go back to college. Well, now I'm cosigned on $70,000+ in private loans, and he wants me to take 50% of them.

 

We've been arguing about these since before the official split - we'd known for ~18 months beforehand that we were done. So...2.5 years he's held these over my head. I've made suggestions for compromises (taking $200 of the $1000 monthly payment) just to see if we could get some arrangement going and move forward. Every time I make an offer, he comes back with a ridiculous counter-offer. His last one was a long, drawn out equation that ended with me taking 65% and him taking 35%. Huh?

 

If we go into mediation and ultimately before a judge to make the call, he will be culpable for them. There's no precedent that I must take responsibility for his educational loans, since he has the degree and I have...nothing. BUT, if we can't agree, we can't do quasi-DIY. A judge will only make the decision once we've consulted lawyers, seen a mediator and still can't reach a decision. I have a feeling that once I "lawyer up" he'll become a lot more willing to discuss.

 

Unfortunately, for the last 5 years of the marriage I was a housewife and in the last year he made some financial decisions that destroyed our credit. I can't get a loan to save my soul - I've tried to do so, to get a lawyer. Because of a string of deaths in the family, my father has already taken as many loans against his 401K as possible, so he can't help out.

 

Oh, and thanks for the suggestion on a local college. I did look into that. I live in the stix and closest legal college is several hours away (in Chicago/Cook County). Because of how Chicago is structured, I've been told the universities there only offer services to residents of Cook County. They're very imperialistic there.

Edited April 11, 2012 by NeverDated

[elfman]

Hey Never,

 

I would not go into debt to secure a divorce... no way... You are right, his educational loans are his own. A quick question? Do you guys live together? What happens if you simply wait it out? What will change when you get the divorce? I am asking because, as you put it, it seems you are well informed about how much it will cost, and what you'll be able to take, but it seems getting the divorce is a long way off financially at the moment.

 

This might help: FREE LEGAL AID Illinois - Pro Bono Help

 

Good luck!

 

E.

[NeverDated]

I would not go into debt to secure a divorce... no way... You are right, his educational loans are his own. A quick question? Do you guys live together? What happens if you simply wait it out? What will change when you get the divorce? I am asking because, as you put it, it seems you are well informed about how much it will cost, and what you'll be able to take, but it seems getting the divorce is a long way off financially at the moment.

Exactly. I can't go into debt for the divorce, I need to do cash. Free legal aid is booked solid with a waiting list, and like I mentioned about the domestic abuse in the original post, it may not be a good option.

 

So, as I said in the other post, XH and I had decided to split a while back. We kept living with each other for ~18 months, although we really weren't "married." When we made the official separation, we moved into separate places (I frankly have no idea where he lives right now, he shows up once every 2 weeks to see the kids.)

 

In the mean time, I tried to get my life back in order. The kids and I moved in with my parents because I couldn't afford the mortgage - XH hadn't paid it in a year anyway. Eventually, I got a good job downtown, so I was financially stable, and started casually dating a fairly nice guy ~4 months after the official separation and that turned out to be a fairly good and serious relationship. Things were good and I was on track to finance the divorce by February.

 

4 months later, my mother died suddenly, my birth control failed (it may be recalled because it's common with this pill), and I had to quit my job (because my mother watched my children). This all happened in the course of two weeks. Shortly thereafter, my father's alcoholism became fully apparent, he was threatening violence against the kids, so they and I had to move back into the house in foreclosure. Boyfriend is still in the picture with absolutely no problems, thank god, there's one thing that hasn't completely gone to hell.

 

So, all that potentially unnecessary backstory being said, I need to get an order from a judge that I am not liable for the student loans. Once I get that, I can try to get my name removed from them. I will also be able to declare bankruptcy to get my credit back in order. This entire ordeal has taken my score from the low-800s to the mid-400s in two years. Until I get this stuff in check, I won't be able to begin repairing it. And until I get it repaired, I won't be able to find a place for the kids and I to live (once the house is officially foreclosed). Months back, I was going to get an apartment near my office (I had a 2.5 hour commute, which is why I couldn't keep my job after my mother's death) - I was declined for a lease, even with a cosigner, because of how horrid my credit is. I'm a waiting list for public housing, but that's presently 3 years long with people in similar situations.

 

I really think I may need to just wait this out, but of course I'm nervous about housing, etc. while that happens and I see how the chips fall. And obviously the fact that I'm expecting a baby with a man I've known for a grand total of 10 months (regardless of the fact that he's absolutely wonderful) does not help the anxiety level in the slightest.

Edited April 11, 2012 by NeverDated

[elfman]

Hello again Never,

 

Well, it seems life may have dealt you a serious set of cards... I am sorry to hear about your mom... with all that was going on it could not have been easy. From what I understand you are 5 months pregnant?

 

Is there no social services office with work for expecting mothers near your area? Will you get anything out of the foreclosure? Have you seen a lawyer for this? There are many options of lawyers who will not charge anything to carry the case, and only charge a percentage of what they can get back for you. I know because I did this, and ended up having a check for $125.000 back, lawyer charged $25.000 (it was a valuable property).

 

Has your exH paid any alimony? child support? If the answer is no, I would start saving receipts for those expenses, and if you can, contact him about it through email. If he says no, you can take those emails to court.

 

I imagine you quit your job because of your mother's passing and not because of pregnancy correct? If not, the company may be liable for wrongful termination, I believe the buffer for a lawsuit is 12 months since you left your job. This is, of course, if they did not make you sign a tight severance agreement.

 

Have you considered cashing out on jewelry? yard sales? etc? And maybe using that money to open a savings account? Maybe go into small loans for small amounts that will bring your credit up?

 

I am simply suggesting things that come to mind that I or someone I know has done in the past to get out of serious financial struggles. Did your mom leave a will? Is your dad the sole beneficiary of her estate?

 

The first step is usually the hardest when dealing with financial issues... Have you decided what your first step will be... choose something simple (like clearing out the garage and selling the junk) and get it done, after that, choose another one.

 

As far as the divorce goes, I would wait... you seem to have too much going on to spend the money and effort to secure it at the moment, and your xH is not really a negative influence in your life as it stands... maybe he'll meet someone and decide he wants the divorce fast, and maybe pays for it...

 

I wish there was more I could advice, and I will certainly include you in my prayers...

 

Good luck and keep strong.

 

E.

[NeverDated]

Thanks, elfman.

 

Pretty much every option you've listed I've exhausted. I sold all the jewelry I'm willing to part with (there are a few family heirlooms I will keep even if I end up living in a cardboard box). I don't really have anything else (of value) to sell. Right now, I'm trying to sell my husband's gaming systems that he left behind, but those will give me maybe $200. Everything else in the house was already purged within the first few months of the final split (when he was paying nothing and I was unemployed) or picked over. He is paying child support now, thankfully. Because I had a good job before my mother died, his lack of meaningful payment wasn't a huge problem. I won't get anything from the house - it's worth about a third of what it's mortgaged for. Everything else I have to show for the marriage is a debt.

 

Let me give you background on him.

 

He's extremely controlling and more than slightly unhinged. He has bipolar disorder, and the final nail in the coffin of the marriage was his declaration that staying off medication was more important than being married. That was shortly after our (now almost 3 year old) son was born. His parents attempted to talk him into at least therapy, and he refused. We got "back together" after our first six month separation because he promised to follow some homeopathic treatments. And they helped! But the first manic episode he experienced, as many people with or involved with BPD know, caused him to state he "didn't need it anymore." Then he gave up.

 

His mania really got out of control during that time. Or maybe it was the same as it always was, but I was just tired of putting up with it so it seemed worse. When I would suggest that we do a little Spring Cleaning and purge old/unwanted items, he would take it to the next level. We were fairly financially stable, so having a yard sale to raise $50 or $100 wasn't worth the hassle. Instead, we donated items to the Salvation Army. I would begin boxing up things I hadn't used, clothes the kids outgrew, that kind of thing, and he would demand we "scale down." By the time everything panned out, he said that each family member should be able to fit all their belongings into two duffel bags.

 

Fortunately (?), after our son was born, his physical abuse stopped. I believe that's why he became more emotionally and verbally abusive, as well as controlling. He would frequently tell me I was a bad mother, ignoring our children, find silly reasons I wasn't doing my stay-at-home mom duties (such as using frozen vegetables for dinner instead of fresh or imposing a two-serving limit on the children at meal-times). Many of his controlling actions stemmed from issues in his own childhood.

 

I was not the nicest person during this time, and said extremely hurtful, hateful and purposeful vicious things. The marriage was dead. I had begged for marriage counselling during the initial separation and he refused. I know it's wrong, but I refused to get counselling for myself if he was unwilling to do the same. Not as if it would have mattered - once we "got back together" every doctor's copay or medical bill I incurred became my "responsibility" to cover. If it went beyond my weekly allowance, I was expected to earn the money to cover it - even if I had wanted counselling, I wouldn't have been able to afford it. When I began my own business, he was "supportive" initially, but quickly became resentful, stating I had no right to do that if it took my time away from my "household duties." He cancelled my debit card and ordered me to keep my hands off the bank account. He would withdraw my allowance in cash himself and give it to me. Any time I took money beyond that, it was a major fight.

 

There were also very odd psychological events on his part. He would come home from work (late, without notice, as always, because I believe he was having an affair), and say things like, "Nothing seems real. It's like a dream. I think I could kill you and the kids right now, and when I wake up you'll all be fine. What's wrong with me?" The next day, he would deny it happened. During this time, I spent more nights at my mother's house than at home. I would frequently pack my children up at midnight or 1AM to stay with my mother because of his statements and behavior. And my mother was always coming up with "excuses" for why the kids had to stay the night with her rather than come home with me. On those nights, I would tell my husband I wasn't feeling well and sleep on the couch.

 

So, that's the type of person I'm dealing with. It took me a while to realize that I was not insane, but was suffering a kind of contact insanity from him. He would frequently accuse me of making things up, rewriting what happened, etc. Even things as simple as why I hadn't stayed in college, he changed the history. He only stopped when our neighbor (a good friend of mine) began leaving her window open and confirming what was said and done. I doubt he will find someone new. After the split, he maintained contact for months and tried to court me again to get me back - in his mind, I think, our marriage wasn't ending, I was just throwing a temper tantrum and would come back. When I told him I was pregnant, he turned back to his old ways - cold, nasty, conniving, attempting to exert whatever control he could. Keeping me in this marriage is the last bit of control he has, and I don't think he's going to just find someone else and want out.

[elfman]

Thanks, elfman.

 

1) Pretty much every option you've listed I've exhausted. I sold all the jewelry I'm willing to part with (there are a few family heirlooms I will keep even if I end up living in a cardboard box). I don't really have anything else (of value) to sell. Everything else I have to show for the marriage is a debt.

 

2) He's extremely controlling and more than slightly unhinged. He has bipolar disorder, and the final nail in the coffin of the marriage was his declaration that staying off medication was more important than being married. That was shortly after our (now almost 3 year old) son was born. His parents attempted to talk him into at least therapy, and he refused. We got "back together" after our first six month separation because he promised to follow some homeopathic treatments. And they helped! But the first manic episode he experienced, as many people with or involved with BPD know, caused him to state he "didn't need it anymore." Then he gave up.

 

3) So, that's the type of person I'm dealing with. It took me a while to realize that I was not insane, but was suffering a kind of contact insanity from him. He would frequently accuse me of making things up, rewriting what happened, etc. Even things as simple as why I hadn't stayed in college, he changed the history. He only stopped when our neighbor (a good friend of mine) began leaving her window open and confirming what was said and done. I doubt he will find someone new. After the split, he maintained contact for months and tried to court me again to get me back - in his mind, I think, our marriage wasn't ending, I was just throwing a temper tantrum and would come back. When I told him I was pregnant, he turned back to his old ways - cold, nasty, conniving, attempting to exert whatever control he could. Keeping me in this marriage is the last bit of control he has, and I don't think he's going to just find someone else and want out.

 

Hey friend,

 

Well, this certainly puts things into perspective. It seems you worked on your marriage, or attempted to, and the only way to go was out. I can relate to the bipolar disorder. My wife was pre-diagnosed, but she refuses to accept treatment. Her best friend is diagnosed and every time she stops taking medication she crashes and burns and has to start all over again. Its like a never-ending cycle of self-destruction.

 

1) Definitely keep your family heirlooms... parting with them might be more harmful than beneficial physiologically. Do you have any friends or family that you could perhaps ask for a hand, (not a hand-out, just a hand)? What sort of income, if any, are you having right now? Have you considered looking for someone in a similar situation to share a rent? How many children do you have? Is living with your new boyfriend out of the question for you? What happens if you file for bankrupcy right now? Are you collecting unemployment?

 

2) Is he legally diagnosed as bipolar? It is a shame that proving abuse is difficult from what you've mentioned. Then again, from what you've said he's not really an influence in your life at the moment, you see him only every 15 days when he comes to be with the kids? Like I said, one of the main obstacles of BPD is that all of a sudden they "forget" how low they got without medication, it's like they have no memory of their actions when going without treatment. Remember, BPD tends to be the frontrunner to more serious illnesses like Schizophrenia and Paranoia.

 

3) Ok, so in your opinion he will use the divorce as a means to make you suffer. I believe this could be a double-edged sword for him. His financial situation is a little better than yours from what I gather, so you could start asking for more alimony. I do not know how the law works there, but here you are entitled to half of the estate when you divorce. I understand the divorce is a long way off financially, and I understand you have exhausted most venues of getting it earlier. Do you think the divorce will solve your financial situation or at least help to alleviate it? If so, we need to find more options to carry it through... there must be some way to get ahead in that waiting list.

 

I wish I could be more helpful, and I hope at least writing here makes you drain enough of the bad energy this is producing to make you feel a little better.

 

My best wishes are with you, and I will try to scour the internet to find someone or something that will help.

 

Take care, and don't despair... the only thing that cannot be resolved is death.

 

E.

Edited April 12, 2012 by elfman

[NeverDated]

Well, this certainly puts things into perspective. It seems you worked on your marriage, or attempted to, and the only way to go was out. I can relate to the bipolar disorder. My wife was pre-diagnosed, but she refuses to accept treatment. Her best friend is diagnosed and every time she stops taking medication she crashes and burns and has to start all over again. Its like a never-ending cycle of self-destruction.

Yes, it's so very difficult to control, even when the person is committed to treatment. If they refuse treatment...all bets are off.

 

1) Definitely keep your family heirlooms... parting with them might be more harmful than beneficial physiologically. Do you have any friends or family that you could perhaps ask for a hand, (not a hand-out, just a hand)? What sort of income, if any, are you having right now? Have you considered looking for someone in a similar situation to share a rent? How many children do you have? Is living with your new boyfriend out of the question for you? What happens if you file for bankrupcy right now? Are you collecting unemployment?

- No one I could ask for help. My father is presently self-destructing in his grief over my mother. He has already pulled his own "pity" card with the family that is capable of helping, so I am not going to stand in line.

- Right now, child support (which is a tidy sum, enough to survive on). I am attempting to get my business started again, which takes a bit of time and investment for legal paperwork. That's top of my priority list.

- The house I would need to rent share would need to be enormous. It's not a very good option. My boyfriend and I are attempting to get on level financial footing before [hopefully] he purchases a home.

- I have four children (with "husband") and a fifth on the way. My boyfriend does live with me. He has his own set of circumstances that caused him to be living with his parents temporarily when the death/pregnancy/job loss situation occurred.

- I can't file right now and have anything meaningful happen. I will be able to bankrupt out of credit card debt, but that's minimal (about $7,000, all closed, with a $250/month payment).

- No unemployment, because I voluntary quit my job.

 

2) Is he legally diagnosed as bipolar? It is a shame that proving abuse is difficult from what you've mentioned. Then again, from what you've said he's not really an influence in your life at the moment, you see him only every 15 days when he comes to be with the kids? Like I said, one of the main obstacles of BPD is that all of a sudden they "forget" how low they got without medication, it's like they have no memory of their actions when going without treatment. Remember, BPD tends to be the frontrunner to more serious illnesses like Schizophrenia and Paranoia.

No, he is not legally diagnosed. I'm half-tempted to pull it out in court so he is ordered to undergo a psyc evaluation, but his mother is a psychologist, so he knows how to play professionals to avoid suspicion. And spot on about the more serious issues - he has heavy tendencies to other conditions.

 

3) Ok, so in your opinion he will use the divorce as a means to make you suffer. I believe this could be a double-edged sword for him. His financial situation is a little better than yours from what I gather, so you could start asking for more alimony. I do not know how the law works there, but here you are entitled to half of the estate when you divorce. I understand the divorce is a long way off financially, and I understand you have exhausted most venues of getting it earlier. Do you think the divorce will solve your financial situation or at least help to alleviate it? If so, we need to find more options to carry it through... there must be some way to get ahead in that waiting list.

I have already (forcibly) taken my "half" of what was there in cash in the accounts. Like I said, aside from debts, there isn't much.

 

The divorce will get my name separate from his. What I'm truly hoping for, is that the divorce order will state I am not responsible for his student loans. Once my name is off those, my credit will improve, because I won't have such a horrid income to debt ratio.

 

I wish I could be more helpful, and I hope at least writing here makes you drain enough of the bad energy this is producing to make you feel a little better.

Thank you. Venting a lot of this does make me feel better. The more I talk about it, the more I realize that there is no real solution and I need to accept that. I operate best when I have a long-term plan to work with, and not being able to do that is really testing my patience and resolve. I think the only way I can approach this is baby steps one day at a time, so I need to stop chasing the idea of having a "plan" and just do what I can do.

[jaymz]

Thank you. Venting a lot of this does make me feel better. The more I talk about it, the more I realize that there is no real solution and I need to accept that. I operate best when I have a long-term plan to work with, and not being able to do that is really testing my patience and resolve. I think the only way I can approach this is baby steps one day at a time, so I need to stop chasing the idea of having a "plan" and just do what I can do.

 

You do have a long term plan, it's just organising the short term goals to get there you are having trouble with. You have a lot going on right now, you need to prioritise what you need to do next, tackle one thing at a time.

 

You are doing great.

[NeverDated]

You do have a long term plan, it's just organising the short term goals to get there you are having trouble with. You have a lot going on right now, you need to prioritise what you need to do next, tackle one thing at a time.

 

You are doing great.

Thank you.

 

That is a better way of putting it. When my mother was alive and she/I had our plan, it was very laid out from last August on: we will set aside at least $500 each month; in February we will hire a lawyer; by July the divorce will be final; in August I will declare bankruptcy; in December we will purchase a new vehicle; in May 2013 we will hire someone to finish the attic; for Christmas 2013 we will buy furniture for the newly finished space. This went on and on until mid-2016, and we had every goal and next step planned out exactly.

 

We'd never been so happy or felt so independent. Her death was the hardest hit I've ever taken and it almost sent me back to my "husband." We found her dead in bed at 6AM, completely unexpected as she'd been checked out in the hospital the day before for an eye infection. My best friend called me that afternoon and said, "Do not, under any circumstances, give him any indication that your life is as f***ed as it now is. He will try to get you back, he will succeed and it will only get a thousand times worse because he knows you have no one to run to." I got a similar call from my aunt (mother's sister) a few hours later.

 

Trying to put any kind of plan in place after that is just seeming impossible.

[elfman]

Thank you.

 

That is a better way of putting it. When my mother was alive and she/I had our plan, it was very laid out from last August on: we will set aside at least $500 each month; in February we will hire a lawyer; by July the divorce will be final; in August I will declare bankruptcy; in December we will purchase a new vehicle; in May 2013 we will hire someone to finish the attic; for Christmas 2013 we will buy furniture for the newly finished space. This went on and on until mid-2016, and we had every goal and next step planned out exactly.

 

We'd never been so happy or felt so independent. Her death was the hardest hit I've ever taken and it almost sent me back to my "husband." We found her dead in bed at 6AM, completely unexpected as she'd been checked out in the hospital the day before for an eye infection. My best friend called me that afternoon and said, "Do not, under any circumstances, give him any indication that your life is as f***ed as it now is. He will try to get you back, he will succeed and it will only get a thousand times worse because he knows you have no one to run to." I got a similar call from my aunt (mother's sister) a few hours later.

 

Trying to put any kind of plan in place after that is just seeming impossible.

 

I am very sorry to hear how your mom passed away, especially since the two of you seem to have gotten along fairly well and were counting on eachother.

 

I think, given the circumstances, you are at least VERY clear on what is going on and how to prioritize your efforts... I am wishing an opportunity presented itself to you that would give you a jump-start, since that is all you seem to need.

 

Consider that, in your shoes, most women would be back with their husband out of sheer fear. I agree with not letting him know your difficulties, you do not want pity from him at this moment, or ever actually.

 

Keep hanging tough, I am sure something will come up which you had not considered.

 

Chapeau to you on how you on the conviction with which you are handling this. Take care of yourself, you are pregnant after all.

 

E.

Edited April 13, 2012 by elfman