skylarblue Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 A simple question that another thread got me thinking: Do APs “owe” each other anything? Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same. Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess they do but why expect honesty from an inherently dishonest situation? 7 Link to post Share on other sites
LoveTKO Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 The only thing they owe you as far as honesty is concerned is being somewhat punctual if you were supposed to meet somewhere at a certain time and place. That's it. A leopard doesn't lose its spots, therefore someone who is capable of lying to a spouse will lie to you as well. It's the essence,the fabric, foundation, core, etc. of any affair. The art of the flim-flam, bamboozle, Shanghaiing.......go in it for sex if you do, but don't expect or demand commitments or honesty. You need to take a refresher course and get a better grasp of what your role is as the OW/OM. Link to post Share on other sites
UpwardForward Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Thanks for the thread. I wanted to respond on the other thread, but my question unanswered on there, and I thought this response would be too late in the NC process. Yes, I definitely do feel that at the time of asking for NC, reasons should be given to the AP. Probably one can say they don't need to disclose their reasons and that AP should already know the reasons. This isn't necessarily the situation. Men can be dense, noncomprehending and with convenient or bad memories. I just feel that for Proper NC and closure, a complete explanation should be given for the piece of mind of both parties. Some may feel this so-called courtesy of communication may be undeserved by the AP, but I feel it necessary to complete the transaction. In everyday life, if someone asks you a question - do you not answer. Not a good idea to hide in this manner - whether it be business or personal. Link to post Share on other sites
Author skylarblue Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess they do but why expect honesty from an inherently dishonest situation? I never really thought of the situation/A as one of dishonesty between xMM and me. It was a situation of dishonesty between xMM and his W. I expected honesty from xMM most of all because there was no need to lie to me like he had to his W. I don’t expect a person to lie that has no reason to. Doesn’t mean I necessarily got it. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I never really thought of the situation/A as one of dishonesty between xMM and me. It was a situation of dishonesty between xMM and his W. I expected honesty from xMM most of all because there was no need to lie to me like he had to his W. I don’t expect a person to lie that has no reason to. Doesn’t mean I necessarily got it. But he is a dishonest person. If I do business with somebody that is known for ripping off their partners shouldn't I not expect it to happen to me? He might not be dishonest to you but you are a part in a situation with a dishonest person. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I never really thought of the situation/A as one of dishonesty between xMM and me. It was a situation of dishonesty between xMM and his W. I expected honesty from xMM most of all because there was no need to lie to me like he had to his W. I don’t expect a person to lie that has no reason to. Doesn’t mean I necessarily got it. Why would he "owe" you more than he "owed" her? 3 Link to post Share on other sites
UpwardForward Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I never really thought of the situation/A as one of dishonesty between xMM and me. It was a situation of dishonesty between xMM and his W. I expected honesty from xMM most of all because there was no need to lie to me like he had to his W. I don’t expect a person to lie that has no reason to. Doesn’t mean I necessarily got it. If a person will lie, cheat on their spouse, they will cheat on anyone - incl their bus transactions, and other obligations. Even filtering down to their children. Link to post Share on other sites
stillwater Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Why would he "owe" you more than he "owed" her? She was owed honesty too. He just didn't give it to her. IMO people involved in a relationship are owed honesty. Whether you're going to get it, or whether expecting it is naive, is another story. And yes, I've been guilty of not abiding this in the not-so-distant past. Edited April 20, 2012 by stillwater Link to post Share on other sites
trinity1 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess they do but why expect honesty from an inherently dishonest situation? There's nothing inherently dishonest in an EMR. The dishonesty lies within the marriage with the WS being dishonest to the BS. Link to post Share on other sites
trinity1 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I never really thought of the situation/A as one of dishonesty between xMM and me. It was a situation of dishonesty between xMM and his W. I expected honesty from xMM most of all because there was no need to lie to me like he had to his W. I don’t expect a person to lie that has no reason to. Doesn’t mean I necessarily got it. I see your thoughts on this are the same as mine. I think it's something inherent in marriage which makes it hard to be honest when things change and you are compelled by one reason or another to break your vows. The reason is likely that you have promised more than you can keep and yet you still try to keep up the image of keeping your vows. Love is not something that can be promised. Neither to the BS nor to the OP. You can not promise to love someone forever. Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 There's nothing inherently dishonest in an EMR. The dishonesty lies within the marriage with the WS being dishonest to the BS. What do you mean, trinity? Do you believe that in an A the MP is 100% truthful with the AP? Link to post Share on other sites
beenburned Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I agree with Lady Grey. The MM should provide an explanation of why he is going NC/ending the affair to the OW. Sky, MM lie to both the OW and the wife. It is just part of their game plan to get away with being a cake eater/cheater. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
wannabdone Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess they do but why expect honesty from an inherently dishonest situation? You don't have to "expect" it, but I think its given when an AP is truly ready to stop with the dishonesty and start a new life. Link to post Share on other sites
wannabdone Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Personally, IMO it shows that they are not truly wanting to start out a new life honestly. If you do not tell the AP what is up, you are simply keeping the door open to be able to come back. Its really hard to tell someone the truth after you have loaded them full of **** for years, but if you are SINCERELY wanting to make your life as a true honest one, I think its part of your process to do so. I told my xMM exactly where I was and what I was thinking. That I had loved him so much, I had neglected to love myself and that I would NEVER do that again, that I would NEVER settle and be the OW to him or anyone else. He did not do the same. Why? Because he is keeping that door open. Or so he thinks. Stupid Narcassist doesn't realize that others can shut the door whether he wants it to be shut or not. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
trinity1 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 What??? If you marry someone, you take the vows and you promise all the things that you are saying that you can't. That is exactly what happens. When you get married, you promise things that are beyond your control. Thus the EMRs in a desperate attempt to keep what can not be promised. Link to post Share on other sites
trinity1 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 What do you mean, trinity? Do you believe that in an A the MP is 100% truthful with the AP? It differs. Some are, some aren't. Well, is any individual ever 100% honest, that may be exaggerating a little. What I do know, is that many WS have a need to be honest to their AP exactly because they are dishonest at home. They need to have one relationship where they can be totally honest. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 It differs. Some are, some aren't. Well, is any individual ever 100% honest, that may be exaggerating a little. What I do know, is that many WS have a need to be honest to their AP exactly because they are dishonest at home. They need to have one relationship where they can be totally honest. Many WS' seem to change their minds about what they want, IME. At first, they say they are unhappy about this and the other. But when the AP wants to take things to another level, a lot of them backtrack. The problem is that they don't tell the AP that they've changed their minds. That suddenly when faced with the choice to be with the AP or to stay M, they have realized that they'd prefer to stay M. Another thing that WS' do that I find dishonest even if they may not be aware is telling two people the words "I love you" and other related things. Think about it. "you make me so happy" is something they say. Then they go home to their family every day for years. What are they telling them? "I love you and you mean everything to me". Nah. I doubt that most WS' can be dishonest in one R without being dishonest in the other. Maybe for those who are in really bad Ms and the R is an exit A. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 A simple question that another thread got me thinking: Do APs “owe” each other anything? Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same. Thoughts? IMO people who willingly and knowingly participate in affairs have made a choice to live a lie. The whole concept of affairs depends on lies. If there were no lie, it would be a relationship, not an affair. To assume that an AP "owes" honesty and/or consideration (or anything) to the other AP is an interesting but ludicrous idea. There is nothing honest or considerate about affairs. That is why so many people get hurt on all sides of the affair situation. Link to post Share on other sites
wannabdone Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 IMO people who willingly and knowingly participate in affairs have made a choice to live a lie. The whole concept of affairs depends on lies. If there were no lie, it would be a relationship, not an affair. To assume that an AP "owes" honesty and/or consideration (or anything) to the other AP is an interesting but ludicrous idea. There is nothing honest or considerate about affairs. That is why so many people get hurt on all sides of the affair situation. Agreed, but just as any process, you first step is honesty and admitting your problem. I think telling your AP the truth is your first step in healing. IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet Storm Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 One of the biggest mistakes an OW can make is to assume MM's dishonesty is situational. It is so often an indicator of his true character. He lies to avoid conflict and to get what he wants, and anyone in the way of that will get lied to. He doesn't want to be the bad guy. Most OW figure this out eventually. He's lying to the wife about where he's going (out with OW), and he's lying to the OW about where he's going (nowhere). MM's have a strong need for admiration and validation. The marriages usually start okay, but their wives eventually notice their conflict avoiding lies (usually small ones). Gradually, the wife will stop complimenting and admiring him because she loses respect for him. Feeling this, he seeks out other ways to get those validation and admiration needs met (the OW). If OW keeps believing him and keeps validating him, he'll be happy. When OW starts getting frustrated, she will also stop showering him with admiration and validation and the cycle continues. MM owes a lot to many people, but that doesn't mean he is going to give what he is owed. You are expecting someone with no integrity to act with honor. Think about the conflict in that, and in the future pay attention to this. Would you hire a felon to clean your house? Michael Vick to walk your dog? Jerry Sandusky to babysit your kids? If not, then why nominate a cheater for your boyfriend? A person's actions are a very good indicator of their character. Not just how they act towards you, but how they act towards everyone. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I see your thoughts on this are the same as mine. I think it's something inherent in marriage which makes it hard to be honest when things change and you are compelled by one reason or another to break your vows. The reason is likely that you have promised more than you can keep and yet you still try to keep up the image of keeping your vows. Love is not something that can be promised. Neither to the BS nor to the OP. You can not promise to love someone forever. You can promise to "forsake all others". I've found that it's truly not that hard to do. You have to take the time to understand how relationships form...and learn how to safeguard your own by learning how to head them off before they can even form. Worked for me wonderously well for 25 years now. And if you find that you no longer love the person your with...end that relationship BEFORE you allow yourself to start another one. Again, simple. Easy-peasy. If you're emotionally weak enough to be unable to hold up to this, you're not decent relationship material to begin with. At that point, this person should probably be told to get out of the gene pool by the nearest lifeguard. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
woinlove Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I never really thought of the situation/A as one of dishonesty between xMM and me. It was a situation of dishonesty between xMM and his W. I expected honesty from xMM most of all because there was no need to lie to me like he had to his W. I don’t expect a person to lie that has no reason to. Doesn’t mean I necessarily got it. First, I think this is an interesting question you have posted. Second, in response to the above: Why does a MM lie to his W? It is because he wants to do something that he thinks (or knows) she will disapprove of. You say he has no reason to lie to you? That's only true as long as his needs and wants are all fine with you. Provided you don't mind him having sex with his W, placing more priority on some of her needs than on yours, having a second OW, etc., then he doesn't have a need to lie. But, he may not know exactly all you are fine with. I came to realize that people that are not open and honest in their primary relationships, often are just not open and honest in any relationship. The MM may simply assume the OW won't want him sleeping with his wife, cancelling a date to do something with her, and consequently lie whether there is a need to or not. I was really surprised to learn xMM lied about sleeping with his W, because I really was fine with it and had assumed it until he spontaneously said that he didn't. I only found out because his W told me differently, and then he admitted it. Why did he lie? He didn't really believe I would be fine with it. The thing is, people who are not open and who lie to and deceive their own family, are often just not very good at open and honest communication. They often make assumptions, react instinctively, an don't really know what open and honest means. On the flip side, people who are great communicators with those close to them, who know how to achieve and maintain real intimacy over the years, really value honesty and openness, those people just don't like to lie to and deceive those close to them. They usually aren't very good at it and don't want to become good at it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 And how many stories have we seen over and over here where previous OW come and eventually end up emotionally devestated when they learn that they were lied to and manipulated just as the BS was in their situation? I understand why they were shocked...because of the intrinsic belief that people seem to have that somehow their situation is different. /sigh 3 Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Agreed, but just as any process, you first step is honesty and admitting your problem. I think telling your AP the truth is your first step in healing. IMO. Admitting a problem and taking that first step is a move towards personal healing. That is not the same as expecting honesty from someone else, especially a MM who is having an affair with an OW. IMO, expecting a MM to be truthful to his OW is setting the OW up for a big letdown. Link to post Share on other sites
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